Trump 2020-21 - Epilogue

[snaapz]

I will admit I, Canadian, flip flop on how I feel about Trump and Biden.

On one hand I hear things like Trump has and is bringing work back to USA, such as recently helping Maine by eliminating a tariff on lobster exports. Where as Biden is shown to have made changes which had "moved 1 out of 6 manufacturing jobs out of the USA". As a Canadian I often hear of new tariffs on Canadian goods, which seems like it would encourage American businesses to consider buying local metals, lumber, milk.... Though he is open to accepting Canadian medication in an effort to lower med costs.

Then on the other hand it's apparent that Trump has no sympathy for many of today's issues and is a disgrace.

It seems like everyone hates Trump, but then there is so much fear that he will get enough votes to win the upcoming election; meaning people do like him?

Is Trump really that bad of a president? My own mother won't even say his name lol, she just says #45.

[BRoswell]

Then on the other hand it's apparent that Trump has no sympathy for many of today's issues and is a disgrace.

Is Trump really that bad of a president?

I think you just answered your own question.

[allegro]

Where as Biden is shown to have made changes which had "moved 1 out of 6 manufacturing jobs out of the USA".

Where is that "shown?" Where is Biden personally responsible for something like that?

You know who really started the process of moving manufacturing jobs out of the USA?

This guy:

[allegro]

See also:

[allegate]

[GulDukat]

Is Trump really that bad of a president?

Yup.

[Einzige]

The problem is capitalism; Biden is no alternative; Sanders was no alternative; elections are no alternative.

[Jinsai]

The problem is capitalism; Biden is no alternative; Sanders was no alternative; elections are no alternative.

Facebook and Twitter just shut down a bunch of Kremlin-backed social media accounts with associated fake news sites, and what you’re saying here aligns almost exactly with one of the bullshit angles they’ve been pushing to steer people away from voting for Biden.

The central problem right now is fascism, not capitalism, and Biden is the alternative, like it or not, call it what you want.

[Einzige]

Facebook and Twitter just shut down a bunch of Kremlin-backed social media accounts with associated fake news sites, and what you’re saying here aligns almost exactly with one of the bullshit angles they’ve been pushing to steer people away from voting for Biden.

The central problem right now is fascism, not capitalism, and Biden is the alternative, like it or not, call it what you want.

Fascism is just a kind of capitalism, and American liberalism has added constructively to the American fascist project (like with the 1994 Biden-Clinton crime bill). The Democratic Party is an essential, functional part of American fascism.

[M1ke]

Fascism is just a kind of capitalism, and American liberalism has added constructively to the American fascist project (like with the 1994 Biden-Clinton crime bill). The Democratic Party is an essential, functional part of American fascism.

No.....no it's really not.

[Einzige]

No.....no it's really not.

I mean, you could try to demonstrate how the Democratic Party isn't guilty of expanding the American carceral State (we know it is), or unwarranted governmental surveillance, or the War on Terror, or corporate bailouts, etc. etc.

[Jinsai]

this is hopeless... ok, fine, we have a president encouraging his followers to attack protesters, has badge-less troops shoving peaceful protesters into unmarked vehicles and escorting them to who-knows-where, sows distrust in established outlets that people rely upon to get news and information, attacks any government institution that gets in his way, is actively attacking any institutions or movements that he views as a threat to his continued rule, riles up his supporters against "the other." He lies despite obvious evidence to the contrary, and continues repeating those lies. He's flagrantly trying to suppress the vote in plain sight...

But whatever... you say "elections are no alternative." OK, great, so WHAT is?

[M1ke]

I mean, you could try to demonstrate how the Democratic Party isn't guilty of expanding the American carceral State (we know it is), or unwarranted governmental surveillance, or the War on Terror, or corporate bailouts, etc. etc.

Why would I waste my time debating with you?

The way you've introduced yourself to this thread leads me to believe it would be nothing but a frustrating experience. Most Trump supporters don't care about the things they actually argue for, they only care about "owning the libs", and you've posted nothing that would suggest that's not your goal.

[Einzige]

Why would I waste my time debating with you?

The way you've introduced yourself to this thread leads me to believe it would be nothing but a frustrating experience. Most Trump supporters don't care about the things they actually argue for, they only care about "owning the libs", and you've posted nothing that would suggest that's not your goal.

"Trump supporters"

Uh. I'm a left-communist ala Antonie Pannekoek.

[versusreality]

ah, got it. the same thing that the fascist Jim Jones practiced.

[Einzige]

ah, got it. the same thing that the fascist Jim Jones practiced.

No?

"You're the real fascist!" he wails, as he votes for the architect of the American criminal justice system.

[versusreality]

if that's your best defense, I believe the discussion is over.

also funny how you assume who I'm going to vote for. perhaps I'm doing a write in vote?

[Jinsai]

well, back in the real world, there's an election happening in 2 months, and the outcome will change the rest of everyone on earth's life, so unless you have something to say other than "it's all the same, voting doesn't matter, blah blah, Biden is a fascist too, everyone is!" Then, I dunno, you're not really helping the conversation. If you really don't think there's going to be a difference if Biden or Trump is elected, I don't know what to say...

The outcome seems to be very important to Vladamir Putin, and China, and the rest of the world, so much so that they're flagrantly trying to put their thumbs on the scales. The outcome of this election seems to matter so much to the Kremlin that they're pumping tons of money into misinformation campaigns. Maybe you should phone them up and tell Putin it doesn't really matter and he should save his money.

[Einzige]

The outcome seems to be very important to Vladamir Putin, and China, and the rest of the world, so much so that they're flagrantly trying to put their thumbs on the scales. The outcome of this election seems to matter so much to the Kremlin that they're pumping tons of money into misinformation campaigns. Maybe you should phone them up and tell Putin it doesn't really matter and he should save his money.

So? The American government undermined democratic elections in Italy in 1948 (overtly dumping millions of dollars into the hands of anti-Communist candidates), in Chile in the 1970s, and even in Russia in the 1990s.

What many Russians, but few Americans, know is that 20 years before Russia tried to swing an American presidential election, America tried to swing a presidential election in Russia. The year was 1996. Boris Yeltsin was seeking a second term, and Bill Clinton desperately wanted to help. “I want this guy to win so bad,” he told Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott, “it hurts.”Clinton liked Yeltsin personally. He considered him Russia’s best hope for embracing democracy and capitalism. And he appreciated Yeltsin’s acquiescence during nato’s march eastward, into the former Soviet bloc.

Unfortunately for Clinton, ordinary Russians appreciated their leader far less. Yeltsin’s “shock-therapy” economic reforms had reduced the government’s safety net, and produced a spike in unemployment and inflation. Between 1990 and 1994, the average life expectancy among Russian men had dropped by an astonishing six years. When Yeltsin began his reelection campaign in January 1996, his approval rating stood at 6 percent, lower than Stalin’s.

So the Clinton administration sprang into action. It lobbied the International Monetary Fund to give Russia a $10 billion loan, some of which Yeltsin distributed to woo voters. Upon arriving in a given city, he often announced, “My pockets are full.”

I find your appeal to nationalism - an ironic mirror-image of MAGAt nationalism - uneffective and, well, unappealing. Nationalism is itself repugnant.

[Jinsai]

My appeal to Nationalism? What the fuck are you talking about?! Sorry, I don't want the Kremlin, or anyone else, to try to fuck with our election. Oh no, that makes me a nationalist!!!!? I do, however, note that they think the outcome is important to their interests... and that was the point.

You never got around to actually answering my question though: If voting is "not an alternative," what is?

[Einzige]

My appeal to Nationalism? What the fuck are you talking about?! Sorry, I don't want the Kremlin, or anyone else, to try to fuck with our election. Oh no, that makes me a nationalist!!!!?

Generally speaking, yes it does. Accepting the fiction of the sanctity of national integrity on any level makes you a nationalist.

I do, however, note that they think the outcome is important to their interests... and that was the point.

You never got around to actually answering my question though: If voting is "not an alternative," what is?

The alternative, at this point, is to attempt to reach out to the Russian (and Chinese) proletariats and work towards a unified, international Communist Party set against their respective bourgeois States.

[Jinsai]

Generally speaking, yes it does. Accepting the fiction of the sanctity of national integrity on any level makes you a nationalist.

I'm not appealing to any sanctity. I don't want America fucking with the elections of other countries. I think this country is shit on a thousand levels and is guilty of more shit than it can ever be absolved of. Fuck you.

The alternative, at this point, is to attempt to reach out to the Russian (and Chinese) proletariats and work towards a unified, international Communist Party set against their respective bourgeois States.

Good fucking luck with that fantasy.

[Einzige]

I'm not appealing to any sanctity. I don't want America fucking with the elections of other countries. I think this country is shit on a thousand levels and is guilty of more shit than it can ever be absolved of. Fuck you.

These issues cannot be resolved by electing either of the capitalist Parties.

Good fucking luck with that fantasy.

It probably begins with the ascension of China to the status of hegemon. Though the CPC only uses Marxism to justify their capitalism (on the basis that the means of production have to be developed - by the CPC, of course), they're starting to have problems keeping their real Marxists in line. The Chinese workers are at least accustomed to class rhetoric.

[Jinsai]

These issues cannot be resolved by electing either of the capitalist Parties.

Yeah, well, this has been a really great and productive conversation, but I'm bored.

[allegate]

[GulDukat]

I will never understand why some people rate Trump so highly on his handling of the economy.

Yet people also give Trump shit rating with his handling of COVID-19. The two things are interconnected.

[Einzige]

Biden is gonna be Tuffer On Crime than the Republican, lul.



Rioting and looting are protesting. They're just not the ineffectual form of peaceful protest that left-liberals think they're Gandhi for accepting. Violence does bring change, and Biden's line about his "language being less divisive" reminds me of Marx:

The Young-Hegelian ideologists, in spite of their allegedly “world-shattering" statements, are the staunchest conservatives. The most recent of them have found the correct expression for their activity when they declare they are only fighting against “phrases.” They forget, however, that to these phrases they themselves are only opposing other phrases, and that they are in no way combating the real existing world when they are merely combating the phrases of this world.

[Jinsai]

Biden is gonna be Tuffer On Crime than the Republican, lul.

What did you expect him to say, "burn it down! Rioters rule!" Yeah, that's a winning strategy. Are you surprised someone running for president said "burning stuff down is bad?" He only needed to even say it because Trump accused him of supporting looting.

[Einzige]

What did you expect him to say, "burn it down! Rioters rule!" Yeah, that's a winning strategy. Are you surprised someone running for president said "burning stuff down is bad?" He only needed to even say it because Trump accused him of supporting looting.

Of course not. Which is precisely why supporting Biden is so ineffectual.

Biden, and the Democratic Party, and American left-liberals, are all just more flavors of conservative.

[Jinsai]

Of course not. Which is precisely why supporting Biden is so ineffectual.

Because he's trying to actually WIN an election?