Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[theimage13]

I can't believe we even need this...but to me, it feels like filling up "random" headlines thread with conversations about sexual assault is a little bit disrespectful to the seriousness of the topic.

I'm not going to start anew with a running list of whose been accused in just the last few weeks, but this thread has been spurred by the ongoing accusations (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/15/two_more_women_come_forward_to_accuse_roy_moore_of _sexual_misconduct.html) against Roy Moore and the new allegations (http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/) against Al Franken.

[Mantra]

Can we get all the posts from the random celebrity thread transferred over? There's been a lot of good discussion in there that shouldn't be lost.

[october_midnight]

Sylvester Stallone (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5081605/Sylvester-Stallone-accused-forcing-teen-threesome.html)

[theimage13]

Are we lumping celebs and politicians into this? If so I'll adjust the thread title.

Celebrity (noun): a well-known person

Yes, politicians count as celebrities.

[Mantra]

Are we lumping celebs and politicians into this? If so I'll adjust the thread title.

Yes, lets just put all of them in here.

[theimage13]

Can we get all the posts from the random celebrity thread transferred over? There's been a lot of good discussion in there that shouldn't be lost.

I'd do this myself if I had the permissions. Alas, I am but a lowly general user.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/ejdickson/status/931153558375890944

I'll be honest - I thought it was a parody at first considering his profession.

[thevoid99]

Things are now getting worse for Jeffrey Tambor: https://www.thewrap.com/jeffrey-tambor-accused-of-sexual-harassment-by-transparent-actress-trace-lysette/

[theimage13]

Things are now getting worse for Jeffrey Tambor: https://www.thewrap.com/jeffrey-tambor-accused-of-sexual-harassment-by-transparent-actress-trace-lysette/

Do you ever listen to yourself, Tambor?

http://www.hookedonhockeymagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/No-Touching.jpg

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/vincethepolack/status/931568656600981504

Uh....oookay.

[Jinsai]

Al Franken?! Just WHAT THE FUCK...

[cashpiles (closed)]

Ya... it’s probably 50 percent of the male population that has at least once engaged in sexual harassment.

[allegro]

I wouldn't venture to offer a percentage, I don't think there's any way of knowing since this is just a character thing vs. some genetic thing, and society has looked the other way for so long, and will continue looking away I imagine.

[allegate]

I would say maybe even 50% of the population in general.

edit: hypothesis

[OSLIN]

Ya... it’s probably 50 percent of the male population that has at least once engaged in sexual harassment.

Where did you pull that statistic from? Not questioning, just asking.

[botley]

It's not a statistic, it's a wild guess in the face of what seems like an overwhelming number.

[Exocet]

Harvey Weinstens Mirimax films was probably the best independent film company of the 1980s. some real great documentaries and all those great movies and directors he spotted and helped unleash on the world with their amazing films like Sex Lies and Videotape, Pulp Ficiton, The English Patient, Roman Polanski is one of my favourite directors, The Pianist is one of my favourite films, yet he drugged and raped a 13 year old girl in 1978, and Harvey Weinsten is a Sex Pest.

remember feeling this way about Phil Spector, its hard to divide the person from the art.

[thevoid99]

And now making the list: Girls writer Murray Miller raping the then-17 year old Aurora Perrineau: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/11/murray-miller-aurora-perrineau-rape-accusation-1201898829/ and to make matters worse, Lena Dunham is defending him: http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/the-wrap/article/Lena-Dunham-Defends-Girls-Writer-Accused-of-12367064.php?utm_campaign=fb-desktop&utm_source=CMS+Sharing+Button&utm_medium=social

& Ryan Seacrest: https://www.thewrap.com/ryan-seacrest-investigation-sexual-harassment-allegations-former-e-news-wardrobe-stylist/

[OSLIN]

It's not a statistic, it's a wild guess in the face of what seems like an overwhelming number.
I thought he was stating it as a fact. Being a father, son, husband and victim of abuse myself, I find all these actions and the people that have committed these acts deplorable. It hits me to the core and I don’t often talk out on much, but this shit has to end now. I hope that this is the sea change that allows our children to feel comfortable enough to confront abuse like this at the point of attack. The abuse of any person should be considered a crime and anybody in the public eye should be ostracized.

[allegro]

I say hold ‘em all accountable, for everything. Trump, Clinton, Franken, Moore, for sexual harassment, sexual assault, and anybody for anything illegal or unethical, regardless of their party affiliation. They’re a cancer and they have to go.

[tremolo]

It's not surprising, it's AN EPIDEMIC that's been around for hundreds of years, if we started outing everybody I think the Pope will eventually be implicated.

Sad thing is, I don't think it's gonna change, much, either. A few years from now, nobody will remember any of it. People are still blaming MONICA LEWINSKY for Bill Clinton's shit. The saddest thing about that entire Ken Starr report wasn't Bill Clinton - he was a liar in denial - it was how they treated that young woman. She was TWENTY-TWO when that shit started. And, back then, people were calling her "fat."

Then, today, I see a thing on Facebook where people are blaming Leeann Tweeden, showing her on the cover of Playboy, because of course she's just a slut who must be a Trump supporter. *eye roll*

My husband said today that we look at people like Tom Hanks, Barack Obama, lots of guys who will never be implicated in something like this because they are good guys who'd never do anything like this, then why do so many "bad" people think it's okay? Beyond just "male privilege," which the good guys possess, too, but somehow these other guys think it's just perfectly okay to do this stupid shit because society teaches them? Or are they just doing what they think they can get away with? Dunno.

Why does your husband assume Obama and Hanks are good guys who “will never be implicated in something like this”?

I mean, he doesn’t know them personally, does he? And even if he did know them personally or worked with them, he can’t be certain of what they do in their private life.

Why can’t that statement apply to most or all men?

I find it interesting that “innocent until proven guilty” has become a privilege that a few can enjoy while others have to deal with the opposite statement just because.

[allegro]

Why does your husband assume Obama and Hanks are good guys who “will never be implicated in something like this”?

I mean, he doesn’t know them personally, does he? And even if he did know them personally or worked with them, he can’t be certain of what they do in their private life.

Why can’t that statement apply to most or all men?

I find it interesting that “innocent until proven guilty” has become a privilege that a few can enjoy while others have to deal with the opposite statement just because.

Legal terminology isn’t being discussed, we are saying that people aren’t BORN to be harassers or abusers, they either strive to not do it and to be upstanding citizens or they ... don’t. Why they do or don’t is the point. What happens? Is it conscious? Is it lack of awareness? Is it power combined with a personality flaw? The other point, dunno why he chose those two guys, I don’t think he was being overly literal.

I don’t know why all men can’t be upstanding citizens who don’t do this; it should be possible. But us females generally don’t bother trying to explain that this isn’t news to us, that we have all seen it, we have all experienced it at some level (harassment and emotional abuse all the way up to assault) because it often feels like a futile effort, nothing will change. Why should it?

When enough citizens in this country considered Trump’s Access Hollywood quotes to be “harmless locker room talk” and elected him to be President, we know how the country feels about this?

We should ALSO note, here, that not ALL harassers are men; women do it, too. They’re just as wrong if they do it.

Education + Consequences = how a civilized society corrects itself.

Al Franken certainly presents himself as a Moral and Upstanding Citizen Who Obeys Laws these days, and he’s been highly respected. A friend of ours is CRUSHED by this news and Franken’s admission. The guy stuffed his tongue into a woman’s mouth during a USO tour, then treated her like shit for two weeks because she rebuffed him. Then made her the butt of jokes pretending to feel her up in front of people while she was sleeping. WHO thinks that shit is FUNNY? The same people who thought Trump bragging about kissing and grabbing women is funny? They were laughing on that Access Hollywood tape. Or pretending to laugh? Can we change, as a society, so that most of us think this is bad? Rhetorical question.

The things this SHOULD’T be about: Men vs. Women, Democrats vs. Republicans. That’s just more diversion from solutions. Also, the idea that this will create a giant Witch Hunt where thousands of innocent people will be destroyed was floated a lot back in the 80s when the work training started, but it all settled in and not a whole lot changed. No system is perfect. But we try in an attempt to be civilized.

Our legal system has another thread, I think we have one for that.

Sorry for typos, I’m on my iPhone 7+, still not big enough to see what I’m typing.

[tremolo]

Legal terminology isn’t being discussed, we are saying that people aren’t BORN to be harassers or abusers, they either strive to not do it and to be upstanding citizens or they ... don’t. Why they do or don’t is the point. What happens? Is it conscious? Is it lack of awareness? Is it power combined with a personality flaw? The other point, dunno why he chose those two guys, I don’t think he was being overly literal.

I don’t know why all men can’t be upstanding citizens who don’t do this; it should be possible. But us females generally don’t bother trying to explain that this isn’t news to us, that we have all seen it, we have all experienced it at some level (harassment and emotional abuse all the way up to assault) because it often feels like a futile effort, nothing will change. Why should it?

We have to consider context and what it feels like to be a man to understand male behaviour.

Down to our most primal nature, men are biologically “designed” to breed and procreate and continue the survival of our species, just like women are, with a big difference: while women ovulate once a month aprox., the equivalent process in males is completely blown out of proportion. Men produce millions of sperms non-stop from a very young age pretty much until death. Women will never understand what it is like to have the average man’s sex drive, being “up for it” pretty much 24/7 for 30-40 years (the prime of our lives). That strong drive is always there, it’s just natural and normal. We always want to fuck. Trying to understand it from a female perspective might be difficult.

The point is how much control do we have over those impulses? And I think that depends mostly on 2 factors: childhood (how we were raised, pretty much we are all the result of the job our parents/tutors did raising us), and social context. I think the former (how we are raised) has the most impact on our permanent behaviour, the set of values and the environment where we are raised shapes our behaviour as adults, and it even goes as deep as shaping the way our brain cells connect and form networks. Social context is different, cause we can adapt to it or reject it completely (as adults), but of course this is conditioned by our own behaviour and values.

I’m gonna go a bit backwards here:

Social context is constantly changing and it dictates what is socially acceptable and what is not. Today, end of 2017, there are a lot of things that are deemed unacceptable that were not perceived in the same way 20 or 30 years ago. Judging the past based on today’s standards doesn’t seem right to me, since that means we wipe out the social context and judge actions just by themselves. And it works the other way around too: things that back then were considered awful and terrible today are perceived as ok, or not so bad, or even awesome.
I think behaviour based on social context is easier to change unless it clashes with how we were raised.

Childhood, how we were raised, values, model figures, etc... it’s a neverending mess. Some of us were lucky enough to be raised in a certain way with certain values, which keeps us out of trouble and make it easier to adapt to social context. Personally, I was raised under the concept that women shouldn’t be touched, even with the petal of a rose. Never hit a woman, never do anything as low as grabbing a tit or pinching a woman’s ass just because the opportunity arised... be a gentleman, hold that door open and let them go through first, stand up and let them take your seat if the bus is full, etc. Why? “cause they are women, and your mother is a woman”. I was pretty much conditioned to project my mother on every woman I’ve met, and when it comes to respect, sexual assault, etc, it has worked great for me. There is absolutely no woman in the world who could say I havebehaved inappropriately towards her, or anythinglike that. But of course that backfired in other ways (women taking advantage, me not having the same disposition towards men, etc). The values that I was taught have helped me in many ways to be a decent human being, but that doesn’t mean I have many flaws, they just don’t happen to fall in the sexual harrassment department. Even back then when grabbing an ass would have meant absolutely nothing socially and i could have done it without any consequences, i never did, but I know that it wasn’t the same for others.

I will never understand where is the pleasure in grabbing a piece of flesh or abusing someone. To me sex is a wonderful thing that can be almost a spiritual experience when it is consensual and my partner is enjoying it. Anything less than that is a waste. But that’s just the results of my upbringing and my own perception of sex and human beings in general.

I think people who harrass, molest, rape, abuse, or do anything like that are not evil, they are sick, and there is a reason for them to behave the way they do, which is probably the result of a fucked up childhood. That doesn’t mean they can just use it as a trump card and be free of guilt. But maybe they have never thought of it. I do believe though, that if anyone has thought of it and has become conscious of their own actions and mistakes, they have the responsibility to take control of themselves and do something to change it. Once you are aware of your own wrongdoings, you can’t keep on going and blaming others.

I think we, humans, are less evolved than we claim to be, we are closer to being animals than these enlightened beings that we aspire to be. I think it’s still in out nature... taking advantage, the inability to handle power... we haven’t got even close to be as “good” as we think we are.


So yeah, the impulse is there by nature. The control over that (very strong) impulse depends on how we were raised. How much we are willing to bend or cross those lines depends on what our society dictates as acceptable and unacceptable (and all the greys in between those 2 ends of the spectrum).

And it should change. The key is finding out “how” to change it.

[allegro]

Note that this thread is also about sexual harassment (http://employment.findlaw.com/employment-discrimination/sexual-harassment-what-is-it.html).


Types of Harassment: Quid Pro Quo and Hostile Work Environment

There are two different types of sexual harassment claims, although the manner in which a court will distinguish between the two for purposes of deciding whether harassment has occurred has become blurred in recent years:

Quid Pro Quo: Sexual harassment that occurs when a supervisor or one in an authority position requests sex, or a sexual relationship, in exchange for not firing or otherwise punishing the employee, or in exchange for favors, such as promotions or raises.

Hostile Work Environment: Sexual harassment that occurs through the presence of demeaning or sexual photographs, jokes or threats. The inappropriate behavior or conduct must be so pervasive as to, as the name implies, create an intimidating and offensive work environment.

Each state is different with regard to protections against sexual harassment. For example, Alabama allows for an employee to sue an employer for sexual harassment based on a theory of invasion of privacy. Vermont law, in comparison, requires every employer to adopt a policy against sexual harassment. Other states have no specific law prohibiting or punishing sexual harassment, and thus rely on federal law.

Also, to help the conversation regarding sexual assault, this is from the University of Michigan (https://sapac.umich.edu/article/52) (which, straight out of the gate, has a really annoying "loose" error, argh, but it's the general stuff that's being used as educational material in colleges and universities these days).

"How" to change it probably comes a lot from discussions, awareness, what constitutes harassment and assault, etc. ?

We all have "impulses" of some nature, most of them not even driven by any kind of hormones. (E.G. I have had an impulse, for YEARS, when I pass the pastries on the way out of the grocery store, to steal some pastries. I don't know why. I can just BUY the fucking things. But, I have never and will never ACT on that impulse. Probably because of the LAW and fear of CONSEQUENCES. In the case of HURTING people, we generally don't do that in society for the same reasons: fear of consequences, or the knowledge that it is "wrong," or empathy. Or all of the above.)

The idea that men can't control themselves is why lots of Islam and Orthodox Judaism and Christianity require women to cover themselves, dress modestly, cover their hair, etc., to not "tempt" men. So what's that saying about men? Rhetorically, of course. I'd like to think that men are capable of more than that, aren't just a bunch of stupid walking dangerous impulsive hormones and the women (or girls and boys) gotta hide.

[allegro]

Are we lumping celebs and politicians into this? If so I'll adjust the thread title.

To me, the title should be a catch-all of sexual harassment and sexual assault, by politicians and celebrities. I don't know the PURPOSE, exactly, but I guess the main purpose is to stop filling up the Celeb and the Trump thread with this stuff, since it was taking over. But, not all of the allegations are of sexual assault; many were of sexual harassment.

You have a good point re Moore and Franken, since there is actual discussion about political strategies behind what to "do" with them, playing it like pawns on the political chess board, which is a whole different thing than just listing the celebs who have been outed.

[theimage13]

Thread title adjusted. Maybe. Maybe I only changed the title of my post and not the thread itself. I don't know how to ETS.

[allegro]

It still says "Celebrity Sexual Assault Claims," I think only an admin can really change it, which I think DigitalChaos was inferring.

[theimage13]

That said, "famous people" is still too narrow, IMO. A lot of the politicians who will probably be implicated are people you have never heard of. I sure didnt know who the fuck Ron Moore was before the allegations.


edit: ROY Moore. Not fucking RDM. god

If they're in the headlines of national media for sexual misconduct, they're famous.

[thevoid99]

Now you can Russell Simmons to the list: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/russell-simmons-brett-ratner-accused-teaming-up-engage-sexual-misconduct-1059839

And Brett Ratner watched it with glee.

[theimage13]

Watching football and not exactly sober enough to comment on this. So just sharing the news instead.

Tambor leaves Transparent amid sexual assault allegations (https://www.avclub.com/jeffrey-tambor-quits-transparent-amid-harassment-claims-1820591490)


Playing Maura Pfefferman on Transparent has been one of the greatest privileges and creative experiences of my life. What has become clear over the past weeks, however, is that this is no longer the job I signed up for four years ago. I’ve already made clear my deep regret if any action of mine was ever misinterpreted by anyone as being aggressive, but the idea that I would deliberately harass anyone is simply and utterly untrue. Given the politicized atmosphere that seems to have afflicted our set, I don’t see how I can return to Transparent.

[thevoid99]

Charlie Rose: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/eight-women-say-charlie-rose-sexually-harassed-them--with-nudity-groping-and-lewd-calls/2017/11/20/9b168de8-caec-11e7-8321-481fd63f174d_story.html?utm_term=.efb1770c8c3d

[Louie_Cypher]

Let's all imagine Charlie Rose nude.i think i just threw up in my mouth

-Louie

[ton]

This is just endless now. I don't know who's next tomorrow. It could be anybody.

[Patrick_Nicholas]

Gene Simmons, surprise surprise, tried to get someone to grab his penis. He also allegedly claimed that he had done that to other women before. What he allegedly said to the second woman does not surprise me at all. Simmons is a Trump supporter, so Fox News banning him pretty much solidifies this as legit.

http://www.metalinjection.net/metal-crimes/two-women-accuse-kiss-gene-simmons-of-sexual-harassment

[theimage13]

Gene Simmons, surprise surprise, tried to get someone to grab his penis. He also allegedly claimed that he had done that to other women before. What he allegedly said to the second woman does not surprise me at all. Simmons is a Trump supporter, so Fox News banning him pretty much solidifies this as legit.

http://www.metalinjection.net/metal-crimes/two-women-accuse-kiss-gene-simmons-of-sexual-harassment

I work with a lot of people who have done KISS tours through the decades. I could fill an entire separate thread on the things I've heard about him from people who have worked either for him directly or had encounters with him while working with the band. It makes me sad that people like that EVER achieve success in the first place while decent people live in abject poverty. It really is depressing beyond words to me.

[allegro]

I was a GIANT Kiss fan in the 70s, and this is NO surprise at all. If you look up "misogynist dick" in the dictionary, Gene's picture is in there.

I watched "Family Jewels" and even his long-suffering GF (now wife, I guess) Shannon Tweed LEFT him for his shit, and his KIDS were really pissed at him. He is NOTORIOUS for VOLUMES of photos of his female conquests, he has ZERO respect for women.

Exhibit A is his NPR Terry Gross interview.

Paul Stanley: "I can see Gene's ego from my house!"

Gene is like a perpetual 7th Grader with a boner and a wig.

[thevoid99]

Wow, I'm totally surprised..... LMAO..... who didn't see this coming? Of course I knew all of his shenanigans with women was going to finally catch up with him. He is the poster-child of misogyny. Shit, I'd bet you if someone did a sex tape with his daughter. He'd find a way to make money off of that. He is an immoral piece of shit.

[allegro]

That said, "famous people" is still too narrow, IMO. A lot of the politicians who will probably be implicated are people you have never heard of. I sure didnt know who the fuck Ron Moore was before the allegations.

edit: ROY Moore. Not fucking RDM. god

I still think the title needs to include “sexual harassment,” although I admit it’s legal nitpicking (but still an important legal distinction).

[Louie_Cypher]

a little perspective AL frankin accused by three women asked to resign Trump accused by 16 women
-Louie

[allegro]

And Trump has threatened to SUE all of them, hence why we aren’t hearing from them, anymore (and Trump isn’t suing them, probably because depositions would make things worse).

A Senator hasn’t resigned in over 100 years.

Senator John McCain was one of the Keating Five and he didn’t resign.

It pisses me off that these assholes keep doing whatever they want, but I’m not sure what the “punishment” should be.

Resigning usually means that NOTHING happens to them.

[botley]

a little perspective AL frankin accused by three women asked to resign Trump accused by 16 women
-Louie

They should both resign.

[allegro]

They should both resign.
Bill Clinton should have resigned, too, after he was convicted of perjury (let alone the multiple accusations of sexual harassment and sexual assaults and affairs all the way back to Gennifer Flowers during the ‘92 campaign).

He did lose his law license forever, though.

[elevenism]

Dear god. Charlie fucking rose?

[sweeterthan]

The idea that men can't control themselves is why lots of Islam and Orthodox Judaism and Christianity require women to cover themselves, dress modestly, cover their hair, etc., to not "tempt" men. So what's that saying about men? Rhetorically, of course. I'd like to think that men are capable of more than that, aren't just a bunch of stupid walking dangerous impulsive hormones and the women (or girls and boys) gotta hide.

This is the very root of rape culture. That men cannot control themselves so rapes happen. Not sure why but I feel compelled to point that out.

[Mantra]

^The thing about that is that I've sometimes seen people argue that this shit is "natural," and that assertion usually comes packaged with the logical fallacy that everything which is supposedly "natural" is automatically moral or at the very least something that needs to accepted as an unchanging fact of life.

If there's one thing that concerns me about the whole me too movement and all this post Weinstein stuff, it's that this will inadvertently flip things back to being "just how things are." I mean, if it's like 70% of men do this shit (not just rape, but stuff like Franken), then I almost wonder if it'll become a strength in numbers thing. "Look, what are we supposed to do, ostracize one third of our entire society? This is obviously just how most men are, and yeah it's not nice, but what can anyone do about it, ya know?" If one year from now we've seen like 300 celebrities and politicians lose their careers, I worry that it'll stop being shocking or controversial because we have become desensitized and overwhelmed by it all, and therefor end up feeling like there's nothing to do, no way to change something so widespread and ingrained.

Which is NOT to say that I'm against this stuff coming out, I'm all for it. I'm just speculating because, honestly, I don't have a lot of faith or trust in American culture to draw the correct conclusions and respond in a good way. I'm trying to remain positive and optimistic about all this, and I'm enjoying it all, but I also wouldn't be terribly shocked if the eventual outcome of this moment ends up being depressing as fuck.

[mfte]

Dear god. Charlie fucking rose?

Ugh. This one hurts.

[allegro]

Let's all imagine Charlie Rose nude.

My brain is already fried from the idea of Harvey Weinstein nude.

[allegro]

This is the very root of rape culture. That men cannot control themselves so rapes happen. Not sure why but I feel compelled to point that out.

Not just rapes, pretty much anything involving control and power. This isn't *really* just about sex. If they needed sex, they could pay for a high-priced call girl. It's about their position of power, and their ability to make women squirm, and assuming that their power is attractive, and assuming that they can get away with anything, because they are in a position of power; many of them have very little (actual) respect for women. This is a demeaning act, not a sexual one.

Charlie Rose, "I thought it was consensual." (bullshit)

Dude ... if they are WORKING with you, it can NEVER BE consensual, it's the WORK PLACE. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Work is not a bar or a place to pick up women. IT'S WORK. Just stop. This isn't even a good EXCUSE, since that excuse is also UNETHICAL AND ILLEGAL. IT'S WORK. NOOOO.

If anything comes out of this, it will be all of these women standing up -- en masse -- for themselves, making this kind of behaviour VERY RISKY for the harassers and abusers in the future.

The Downward Spiral was pretty much written ALL ABOUT this power and seeking this power; we had a 50-page thread in here discussing "Reptile" and the power struggle, the hate/redemption factors and Eve/Serpent biblical references.

[allegro]

What really pisses me off right now are people comparing which is "worse" in all of this, and Dems saying that Roy Moore should be yanked ("because he's a pedo!") but Al Franken is okay ("at least he's not a pedo, that's not the same thing").

They're BOTH WRONG. THEY'RE BOTH BAD.

They both committed UNETHICAL AND ILLEGAL ACTS OF POWER OVER SOMEBODY ELSE.

No "but this one is worse" ... where does that end?

"At least Roy Moore didn't anally sodomize them with the bloody stump of a dismembered fetus!"

Stop comparing unethical and illegal acts to support your own stance or your own tribe. It's a bunch of shit, it does NOBODY any good.

"But he didn't assault me."

WHO FUCKING CARES??!! He did harass and assault others!

Bill Cosby was supported by Phylicia Rashad, too. That doesn't mean HE DIDN'T DO IT. She should have STFU.

Like the woman working for Charlie Rose, and women came to her to complain .. did she DO anything? No, she said "that's just Charlie being Charlie." Now she says she failed those women. Yes, yes you did.

For people who think that sexual harassment "isn't as bad" as sexual assault, no, that's the WRONG view of this shit. IT'S ALL BAD. And, many sexual harassers will move to the next step of sexual assault.

It's like thinking "emotional abuse isn't NEARLY as bad as physical abuse." Except nobody who's experienced it or anyone who works with the victims agrees with that. IT'S ALL BAD.


Hey, re the title of this thread: SEXUAL MISCONDUCT is actually an all-encompassing legal term.

[allegro]

Well, there IS severity in crimes and usually the punishments try to match the crimes. So, there is some value in trying to discuss that.

Only if there are criminal charges; this isn't a legal thread, we aren't discussing individual state laws and associated punishment, right?

Law looks at ALL of these things as 'bad,' not as "well, it was robbery but at least it wasn't ARMED robbery." The Courthouse isn't divided into 'bad' and 'not so bad' crimes.

And in the work place, sexual harassment or discrimination is often a violation of EEO rules or a violation of policy, and it would require a victim to file a civil suit for relief. Or, the company enforces its policies (not as common as people think) and does an investigation, etc. But, it's far more common for this behavior to be so intimidating (or a potential loss of revenue) that it's hidden, kept secret, swept under the rug.

Look how many cases of sexual harassment were brought up against Roger Ailes and Bill O'Reilly, because there was a hostile work environment where the women weren't supported at all or just paid to shut up.

Now, Fox News has established a Workplace Culture Panel (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/business/media/fox-news-sexual-harassment.html).

Yes, apologists applying their own criteria for the own benefit (progressives, conservatives, whatever) is just slanting the reality to match your own tribal views. This includes Republicans and President Trump, and Liberals and Al Franken.

I've seen a LOT of Progressives saying that Franken needs to go.

edit: Love the new thread title, btw!

[cashpiles (closed)]

Not just rapes, pretty much anything involving control and power. This isn't *really* just about sex. If they needed sex, they could pay for a high-priced call girl. It's about their position of power, and their ability to make women squirm, and assuming that their power is attractive, and assuming that they can get away with anything, because they are in a position of power; many of them have very little (actual) respect for women. This is a demeaning act, not a sexual one.

Charlie Rose, "I thought it was consensual." (bullshit)

Dude ... if they are WORKING with you, it can NEVER BE consensual, it's the WORK PLACE. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. Work is not a bar or a place to pick up women. IT'S WORK. Just stop. This isn't even a good EXCUSE, since that excuse is also UNETHICAL AND ILLEGAL. IT'S WORK. NOOOO.

If anything comes out of this, it will be all of these women standing up -- en masse -- for themselves, making this kind of behaviour VERY RISKY for the harassers and abusers in the future.

The Downward Spiral was pretty much written ALL ABOUT this power and seeking this power; we had a 50-page thread in here discussing "Reptile" and the power struggle, the hate/redemption factors and Eve/Serpent biblical references.

you keep insisting it’s mostly about power. They don’t go for prostitutes because prostitutes are a sure thing... there’s no uncertainty. It’s like why some people get more excitement about cheating on their partners... it’s novelty, and rule-breaking, and uncertainty... power COULD be involved... but I insist it isn’t power as the main driver in a large portion of cases

[allegro]

you keep insisting it’s mostly about power. They don’t go for prostitutes because prostitutes are a sure thing... there’s no uncertainty. It’s like why some people get more excitement about cheating on their partners... it’s novelty, and rule-breaking, and uncertainty... power COULD be involved... but I insist it isn’t power as the main driver in a large portion of cases

The Law (https://www.law.georgetown.edu/campus-life/advising-counseling/personal-counseling/sarvl/general-information.cfm) and experts disagree with you.

The uncertainty is based on the power.

It's why "rape" is now known as "sexual assault" in nearly all jurisdictions.

They don't do this to people of equal or more power.

Cheating on a partner is NOT the same thing as doing this shit at work or sexual assault. Adultery isn't even illegal, anymore; you don't even need to cite it as a cause of divorce in most counties and states.

[mfte]

The Law (https://www.law.georgetown.edu/campus-life/advising-counseling/personal-counseling/sarvl/general-information.cfm) and experts disagree with you.

The uncertainty is based on the power.

It's why "rape" is now known as "sexual assault" in nearly all jurisdictions.

They don't do this to people of equal or more power.

Cheating on a partner is NOT the same thing as doing this shit at work or sexual assault. Adultery isn't even illegal, anymore; you don't even need to cite it as a cause of divorce in most counties and states.

How is this power defined? Physical? Financial? Reputational?

[allegro]

How is this power defined? Physical? Financial? Reputational?

All of the above. Any of the above.

Here's a good article: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sexual-harassment-isnt-about-sex-its-about-power_us_58d13b9fe4b00705db52c340

See also this. http://www.sexualharassmenttraining.biz/sexual_harassment_training_course_Sexual-Harassment-and-Power-Dynamics.html


Sexual harassment really comes down to power. Whether it's Quid Pro Quo or Hostile Workplace Harassment, the perpetrator is exerting a form of power when they sexually harass. In Quid Pro Quo sexual harassment, the perpetrator is in a position of power at work and is exerting this power to get sexual favors in exchange for a workplace benefit. In Hostile workplace sexual harassment the perpetrator is deliberately making the workplace a hostile, uncomfortable environment for a coworker. This is also a power play. The perpetrator is saying I will do what I want whether it is disturbing you or not.

Stopping Harassment is also about power. Both managers and management have the power to stop sexual harassment. The power in an organization lies with managers and supervisors who have been given power within the organizational structure, so that the organization can operate effectively. This power needs to be used for business productivity and not for personal gain. This positive power can come in the form of no tolerance sexual harassment policy and from the example of individual managers.

A company's sexual harassment policy should be very specific and cover all aspects of sexual harassment. It should be signed by every employee and every employee should be thoroughly trained on appropriate behavior. They should know unequivocally what steps will will be taken if they engage in any type of sexual harassment.

Managers and supervisors can exert power over Sexual Harassment by their example. They need to take the policy seriously and never joke about it or allow behavior to occur contrary to it. The manager is the most powerful force in stopping harassment.

Whether it is Hostile Work Environment or Quid Pro Quo, harassment is about power. Make sure your organization is exerting its power for the good of the company and not for personal gain.

[Mantra]

Charlie Rose, "I thought it was consensual." (bullshit)

Yeah, this stupid excuse doesn't even hold up to the most basic scrutiny. He said...


"I always felt that I was pursuing shared feelings, even though I now realize I was mistaken."

Oh, you sincerely thought all of this was totally consensual and a-okay. So then what's up with this shit...


when Rose learned she had confided to a mutual friend about his conduct, he fired her.

Why fire someone just because she told her friend about a (supposedly) perfectly consensual, ethical, appropriate, relationship? If you're doing nothing wrong, you should have no reason to silence her, bully her, get rid of her, etc. That's the behavior of someone who is fully aware of his own wrong doing and is actively working to protect himself. His claim that he thought it was all consensual is pure bullshit.

[allegate]

Oh man.https://twitter.com/cartoonbrew/status/933080638424539137


https://twitter.com/cartoonbrew/status/933080638424539137

[allegro]

Why fire someone just because she told her friend about a (supposedly) perfectly consensual, ethical, appropriate, relationship? If you're doing nothing wrong, you should have no reason to silence her, bully her, get rid of her, etc. That's the behavior of someone who is fully aware of his own wrong doing and is actively working to protect himself. His claim that he thought it was all consensual is pure bullshit.
he was doing something that clearly violated the policies of his employers (CBS and PBS), see this (https://www.cbscorporation.com/wp-content/uploads/legacy_corp/mce_files/2012BCS.pdf).


VI. HARASSMENT-FREE WORKPLACE ENVIRONMENT
CBS has a “zero tolerance” policy for sexual harassment or harassment based on race, color, sex, religion, national origin, ethnicity, age, marital status, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, disability, veteran status, height, weight, genetic information, or any other basis proscribed by applicable law. Discriminatory treatment, including sexual harassment and harassment based on a person’s race, age, or other protected status, is strictly prohibited. Unlawful harassment may occur not only as a result of conduct by supervisors, but also due to conduct by directors and/or fellow employees, and, under some circumstances, conduct by customers, vendors, consultants, visitors, and independent contractors. Unlawful harassment can take place in the office or in work-related settings outside the workplace, such as during business trips, business meetings, and business-related social events. This Statement applies with equal force to conduct in all such settings.
See page 11 of the above-linked document (https://www.cbscorporation.com/wp-content/uploads/legacy_corp/mce_files/2012BCS.pdf)where the company's policies are clearly set out.

[Mantra]

Oh man.https://twitter.com/cartoonbrew/status/933080638424539137


https://twitter.com/cartoonbrew/status/933080638424539137
They really couldn't have picked a more ideal picture for that article. It's perfectly calibrated to elicit maximum revulsion in the reader.

[thevoid99]

So I guess he is Lotso.... oh boy...

[GulDukat]

Sweet Jesus. Men are pigs. I feel embarrassed to be a straight White guy sometimes.

[Dryalex12]

I wonder if this is why im Asexual

[thevoid99]

I feel ashamed in being a man now. Why Lasseter? Why? Why did you have to be such a fuck-up?

[thelastdisciple]

Great article here on the subject of the recent revelations and how we feel if it's someone whose art we enjoy.

What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?
https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/11/20/art-monstrous-men/

[Mantra]

Great article here on the subject of the recent revelations and how we feel if it's someone whose art we enjoy.

What Do We Do with the Art of Monstrous Men?
https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/11/20/art-monstrous-men/

Wow, you weren't kidding, this article is SO GOOD. I love the way she writes. I like how she doesn't really try to answer this issue with any finality, but just explores all the complexities in a really honest way.

Also, that part in the middle where she analyzes the subtext of what's happening between Woody Allen and Mariel Hemingway in Manhatten is actually kind of incredible. I feel like she perfectly captured what's going in with these older men who go after really young girls.


Tracy’s face, Mariel’s face, is made of open flat planes that recall pioneers and plains of wheat and sunshine (it’s an Idaho face, after all). Allen sees Tracy as good and pure in a way that the grown women in the film never can be. Tracy is wise, the way Allen has written her, but unlike the adults in the film she’s entirely, miraculously untroubled by neurosis.

Heidegger has this notion of dasein and vorhandensein. Dasein means conscious presence, an entity aware of its own mortality—e.g., almost every character in every Woody Allen movie ever except Tracy. Vorhandensein, on the other hand, is a being that exists in itself; it just is—like an object, or an animal. Or Tracy. She’s glorious simply by being: inert, object-like, vorhandensein. Like the great movie stars of old, she’s a face, as Isaac so famously states in his litany of reasons to go on living: “Groucho Marx and Willie Mays; those incredible apples and pears by Cézanne; the crabs at Sam Wo’s; uh, Tracy’s face.” (Watching the film for the first time in decades, I was struck by how much Isaac’s list sounded like a Facebook gratitude post.)

Allen/Isaac can get closer to that ideal world, a world that has forgotten its knowledge of death, by fucking Tracy.

[ton]

https://pitchfork.com/news/backstreet-boys-nick-carter-accused-of-rape/

Fucking Christ, I am just tired of finding out people are possibly monsters

[theimage13]

Stay with me here, because you're probably going to want to take issue with some of my phrasing in the next line. It's possible that there may be one good thing to all of this....and you just have to read up this page to see it. Noticing a trend?

Guys everywhere are starting to go "WAIT, HIM TOO!?!???!" and "men are monsters" and "I'm embarrassed to be a guy".

This shows awareness. This shows that more men are starting to understand the problem that women face. Suddenly, it's easier for guys to see why #metoo exists. To get why women - yes, even smart, physically fit women - are still frequently cautious about walking anywhere alone after dark. To comprehend why women may be hesitant to believe that your honest and innocent flirting (or even just politeness) isn't something more sinister or leading to something dangerous.

Good. Guys are starting to see the scope of the problem. Now, use that knowledge. Start calling out your friends, family, colleagues, etc, when they say or do something incredibly sexist, demeaning, objectifying, and so on. Be the change. Endeavor to create an entire society in which women wouldn't even think for a second that they have to be on their guard at all times. Is it likely that such a society will ever exist? Sadly, I doubt it. But if we all start acting and behaving like it can happen, things will at least get better.

[ton]

Stay with me here, because you're probably going to want to take issue with some of my phrasing in the next line. It's possible that there may be one good thing to all of this....and you just have to read up this page to see it. Noticing a trend?

Guys everywhere are starting to go "WAIT, HIM TOO!?!???!" and "men are monsters" and "I'm embarrassed to be a guy".

This shows awareness. This shows that more men are starting to understand the problem that women face. Suddenly, it's easier for guys to see why #metoo exists. To get why women - yes, even smart, physically fit women - are still frequently cautious about walking anywhere alone after dark. To comprehend why women may be hesitant to believe that your honest and innocent flirting (or even just politeness) isn't something more sinister or leading to something dangerous.

Good. Guys are starting to see the scope of the problem. Now, use that knowledge. Start calling out your friends, family, colleagues, etc, when they say or do something incredibly sexist, demeaning, objectifying, and so on. Be the change. Endeavor to create an entire society in which women wouldn't even think for a second that they have to be on their guard at all times. Is it likely that such a society will ever exist? Sadly, I doubt it. But if we all start acting and behaving like it can happen, things will at least get better.

I agree with what you said in that we are not really taking enough accountability or responsibility for the abuse going on in the workplace and in the world in general. I have relatives that were also victims of sexual abuse and it's a really dark and traumatic thing to even just be aware of. I have no idea what it's like to go through it yourself. A lot of these people are scared and don't know where to go to for help. I believe it when people say it's happened. I find that men still find it ok to violate a woman's space and body just because of the culture we perpetuate. I do have to do take more action and responsibility. I feel like a piece of shit all the time when women call me out for being a man and not doing anything, and they are right.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/thatsjustgary/status/933345721474002944


Gary Snyder‏ @thatsjustgary 4h4 hours ago (https://twitter.com/thatsjustgary/status/933345721474002944)




John Lasseter, formerly the head of animation for $DIS (https://twitter.com/search?q=%24DIS&src=ctag), has been banned from the lot in Burbank, from Emeryville, from Glendale, from all corporate locations. Per a source in corporate security @Disney (https://twitter.com/Disney), he has been - for all intents & purposes - trespassed. @sharonwaxman (https://twitter.com/sharonwaxman) @TheWrap (https://twitter.com/TheWrap)

[Dryalex12]

I think im starting to realize why I have a lack of knowledge when it comes to this sort of thing and I said it before very briefly. I'm Asexual...but in a weird way.

I'm still pansexual and i'm not opposed to having a partner but I'm asexual in the way that I do not care or have any interest in sex or naked woman/men. And I feel like because I don't get any arousal from it is where I fucked up on when I was trying to prove my points a few weeks back.

I realized that Asexual people are sorta uncommon, I don't know any famous asexual people that I'm aware of. and I feel like because of the lack of interest is where all the arguing from me came from. I didn't think that people had this bad of a sex drive and I figured people had better control of it, I wasn't aware that people had this bad of a sexual problem.

It's really troubling to see that people are actually like this, they can't control their libido and act like a human being. I thought this was common sense, but I guess I have more to learn about my own sex then I thought I already did. And I hope I'm not offending anyone more than I already had in the past few weeks ago, It's not what i'm intending to, i'm just trying to understand this sort of problem.

I just really hope no one I look up to appears on this page, I might die a little

[bobbie solo]

I'm glad all these gross people are getting outed daily. But at this point I am mostly glazing over every new name, simply b/c outside of the gov't people (Trump, Moore, Franken, etc), they hold no power on a societal scale and there are just too many much bigger things going on in the news. I can only focus on so much. And between the tax bill, net neutrality, Trump's racebaiting, all our foreign wars, etc., I just can't get jacked up about this as much. Keep speaking up though, absolutely.

[Jinsai]

I'm glad all these gross people are getting outed daily. But at this point I am mostly glazing over every new name, simply b/c outside of the gov't people (Trump, Moore, Franken, etc), they hold no power on a societal scale and there are just too many much bigger things going on in the news. I can only focus on so much. And between the tax bill, net neutrality, Trump's racebaiting, all our foreign wars, etc., I just can't get jacked up about this as much. Keep speaking up though, absolutely.

I dunno, I'd say big names in the entertainment world hold a lot of real power. It's at least just as real as a politician's power, and that's why we hear people moaning when a musician, actor, or athlete voices a political opinion... like "how dare they" use their unrelated power to effect political change. Power goes both ways though, and when you use it as a celebrity to leverage the expectation of sex due to that power, it's abuse.

Sure, it directly affects my life in a meaningless way when an actor or entertainer does this sort of shit, but power's power, and institutionalized abuse is abuse

[theimage13]

I am mostly glazing over every new name, simply b/c outside of the gov't people (Trump, Moore, Franken, etc), they hold no power on a societal scale

Are you kidding me? Being in a political office doesn't magically make you more powerful on a societal level. Yes, you have a direct hand in legislating. But guess what? Hollywood stars are NATIONAL icons who have tens of millions of fans across this country alone. These fans follow them on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. When these celebs tell you to vote for someone, it influences outcomes. When they tell you to buy shit, people buy it. It's why they get paid massive endorsement deals by corporations. Celebrities absolutely have societal power, and in many cases, much more power than most politicians. Who the fuck has ever heard of Roy Moore prior to the allegations?

You may not care about movie stars, but America as a whole does. Which means those stars have massive societal power.

[Mantra]

It's all bad.

[botley]

Oh please let the apologist progs and "feminists" keep trying to defend [Franken], please please please.
To whom exactly are you referring when you say people identifying as progressive or feminist are trying to defend Franken? Hard-line Democratic Party insiders?

He is a celebrity AND a political figure, just like Trump, standing accused of multiple sexual assaults — and the media I've seen has framed it as such. Both their political parties are defending them, because that's what political parties do until there is sufficient outcry from their electorate. Please, everyone, demand that leaders in these positions step down. Set an example of how to do this.

[WorzelG]

Is Lena Dunham ever going to just go away?
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2017/nov/20/lena-dunham-apologises-for-defending-girls-writer-accused-of-sexual-assault

[Sarah K]

Maher has been an out shitbag for years now, so that is the least surprising news of all time.

[Mantra]

Everytime I try to articulate my feelings about the Al Franken shit my post ends up devolving into a dumb ramble about the two party system, which doesn't seem like it should be the focus, so I just delete everything I've written.

[theimage13]

Everytime I try to articulate my feelings about the Al Franken shit my post ends up devolving into a dumb ramble about the two party system, which doesn't seem like it should be the focus, so I just delete everything I've written.

I think it's at least worth acknowledging that the accusations against him have been - by SOME - painted as a ploy to shift focus away from other people (to be fair though, I've mostly just been seeing this from randos on Facebook and not legitimate journalists). Goes to show that even something that should be as universally denounced as sexual harassment and assault can be belittled and painted as nothing more than a political ploy. Which, frankly, is disgusting to me.

[theimage13]

Rep. Conyers steps down as ranking Democratic member of the House Judiciary Committee amid accusations of sexual harassment. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/nancy-pelosi-john-conyers-deserves-due-process-n823991)

Let's see more hypocritical politicians (on both sides of the aisle) follow in his footsteps.

[ton]

Mental gymnastics are the worst. Just be straight with it and admit there's a problem. No black and white here. For God's sake.

[Dryalex12]

I really hope all this "coming out as having aspergers" doesn't put more shame on people who have it bad like I do....

Sure, I have poor social skills because of it, but I know well fucking better than to assault or harass someone. I've been accused many times of harassment, but I had no idea I was even doing it since they just never said anything about it.

[thevoid99]

I have Aspergers and I'm not very social at all yet I know what not to do. This is just a bullshit excuse.

[Dryalex12]

It is. Yes, I may not know what i'm doing sometimes but it's common fucking sense not to be a fucking asshole or a prick or at worse, physically assault, whether it was a sexual or non act. It's stupid and it's not gonna win you any favors blaming your act's on a mental problem that can be someone manageable or even out growable

[theimage13]

Matt Lauer fired by NBC news (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567145816/nbc-news-fires-matt-lauer-over-inappropriate-sexual-behavior?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2057)

Wow.

Detailed complaint received Monday night. Incident reviewed. By Wednesday morning, his firing was publicly announced on their own show. THAT, my friends, is how you handle accusations that have clear evidence. Gotta applaud NBC for taking the allegations seriously, reviewing them thoroughly and quickly, and acting immediately instead of trying to "come to an arrangement" or some bullshit (or even ignore them entirely....looking at you, Fox News)

edit: people are now largely rushing to his defense and spouting off the whole "it's a dangerous precedent to fire someone based on one accusation" spiel. Which is, in and of itself, true. But ironically, these people are now the ones making accusations that this wasn't warranted and that nothing was proven. And I'm having a very, very hard time believing that NBC would fire Matt Lauer over something that wasn't clearly proven, if not outright confessed, before even publicizing the fact that he had been accused of misconduct. In what world would a multi-billion dollar company fire one of their marquee names if they didn't have a damn good reason?





(https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567145816/nbc-news-fires-matt-lauer-over-inappropriate-sexual-behavior?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2057)

[allegro]

Now Garrison Keillor Wtf

[theimage13]

now garrison keillor wtf

fucking hell what???!??!??!!

edit: goddamnit I need to be able to type in all caps here

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/ananavarro/status/935869957258309638

Ana Navarro @ananavarro · 5 hours ago
Matt Lauer lost his job.
Charlie Rose lost his job.
Mark Halperin lost his job.
Glenn Thrush lost his job.
Billy Bush lost his job.
Harvey Weinstein lost his job.
Kevin Spacey lost his job.
But in politics...
Conyers still in Congress.
Moore still running.
Trump still President.


Now Garrison Keillor Wtf
https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/935928545183797248

Christopher Ingraham‏ @_cingraham
Holy shit they didn't just fire Keillor, they're also scrubbing all the old Prairie Home broadcasts and *renaming the show* https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-says-mpr-fired-over-alleged-improper-behavior …

[theimage13]

https://twitter.com/ananavarro/status/935869957258309638

Ana Navarro @ananavarro · 5 hours ago
Matt Lauer lost his job.
Charlie Rose lost his job.
Mark Halperin lost his job.
Glenn Thrush lost his job.
Billy Bush lost his job.
Harvey Weinstein lost his job.
Kevin Spacey lost his job.
But in politics...
Conyers still in Congress.
Moore still running.
Trump still President.


https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/935928545183797248

Christopher Ingraham‏ @_cingraham
Holy shit they didn't just fire Keillor, they're also scrubbing all the old Prairie Home broadcasts and *renaming the show* https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-says-mpr-fired-over-alleged-improper-behavior …

Good thing I've got them all saved...

[allegro]

Jesus. We saw it live several times. It wasn’t JUST him.

Holy shit, indeed.



(Note that you can type in all caps if at least one letter is not in all caps.)

[allegro]

LIKE SERIOUSLY WHAT THE HELL???

ha

[theimage13]

Christopher Ingraham‏ @_cingraham
Holy shit they didn't just fire Keillor, they're also scrubbing all the old Prairie Home broadcasts and *renaming the show* https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-says-mpr-fired-over-alleged-improper-behavior …

Fuck me. I was still working on my updates (had an old torrent full of 64kbps stuff and was working on pulling the 128s from the website) and the pages and files were all deleted from the server in the last two minutes.

[thevoid99]

LIKE SERIOUSLY WHAT THE HELL???

ha

What has this world come to? Have we lost the idea of decency? I swear, I feel like the past few years have been really fucked up. Not only do we get these awful stories of sexual harassment and sexual assaults from Hollywood, news media, sports, and politics. We also have race riots. Race-baiting. A sense of idiocy emerging. We have a cum-bucket shitbag in the White House. Where did it go all wrong?

[theimage13]

Since I don't see too many outlets reporting on this detail:


"I meant to pat her back after she told me about her unhappiness, and her shirt was open and my hand went up it about six inches. She recoiled. I apologized. I sent her an email of apology later and she replied that she had forgiven me and not to think about it," Keillor told the newspaper. "We were friends. We continued to be friendly right up until her lawyer called."

So glad that this can get a man's entire life's work thrown away, while 16 accusations of far worse can get you....elected (by a losing vote) to the fucking White House.

I hate this damn country. Fuck off, America. Get your goddamn priorities in order.

[Sarah K]

This hasn't gotten worse. We are just FINALLY seeing a shift where people are comfortable speaking about it.

Talk to any woman who has ever held a job.

[theimage13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoTIfTINhy8

Thankfully I think people are starting to backtrack those statements as the reporting started to be clarified. When the story - as it was printed in the news - was literally just "accused Monday, unemployed Wednesday," it left it easy for people to jump to conclusions. Thankfully as the day has gone on the reporting has gotten more thorough, and I've already seen several people go "oh...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it."

The joy of social media. Release a few sentence statement. Let people freak out about it. Then clarify later.

[cashpiles (closed)]

I think men will have to start reporting unwanted touching from women as well... I know some men feel like it's not something worthy of reporting...but if we are to be equal, we need to.

EDIT:

MORE RUSSELL SIMMONS:

https://pitchfork.com/news/russell-simmons-stepping-down-from-companies-following-additional-sexual-assault-allegations/

[allegro]

This isn’t about men and women and equality; Kevin Spacey was showing his dick to and thrusting himself upon other men; women have sexually harassed women; this is just about DON’T DO IT.

[theimage13]

I think men will have to start reporting unwanted touching from women as well... I know some men feel like it's not something worthy of reporting...but if we are to be equal, we need to.

Yeaaaaaaaaah. The day a woman makes an unsolicited and unwelcome sexual advance on me, I'll get right on that.

(to clarify: I'm not saying I'd love any sexual advance from any woman. I'm saying the ratio of times men have done something to women versus the other way around is like 100,000 to 0.5)

[tremolo]

Women DO make unsolicited sexual advances, especially when they are in groups or drunk (or both). Watching women behave in that kind of setting (in groups + alcohol) is very eye-opening. A good buddy of mine used to work at a strip club for ladies and he had the marks to prove it: lots of scratches and some bruises, when it was supposed to be just dancing and maybe feeling up.

The difference is how men/women react to it.

For a straight man, having a random woman grabbing your dick, pinching your ass, or trying to kiss you out of the blue is more or less the equivalent of a woman being given a new pair of shoes by a random stranger. Sure, it might not be your favourite pair of shoes, or you might not even like those shoes at all, but it doesn’t hurt and it’s not that big of a deal.

Let’s stop portraying women like their shit doesn’t smell. They are as much of an asshole as men are, it just shows in different ways, but they are just as human, just as good, just as bad.

[playwithfire]

I think there's a thing where women are (sometimes) considered less of a threat so men (sometimes) respond to it differently. I also think women don't feel the need to be as cognizant of their behavior (sometimes) because they feel like the possibility of being a creep doesn't apply to them. Also, if a woman does sexually assault a man, it's possible that the "are they going to kill me/beat me up" thing exists as a lower threat, but the shoes analogy makes me sad and I don't like it. I think the expectation of men responding that way can compound trauma for a lot of men.

[theimage13]

I agree with a lot of this, it's just hard to find the way to say it without offending people in today's social climate. I know I'll get shit for this but it's hard for a man really to talk about their grievances without being ridiculed for it. It's such a weird thing, I don't even know how to describe it. You can't really get a word in or say anything. And I know women have every right to complain about their treatment, I am angry about what they have had to go through too. I have more women than men in my family, by far, and it's always affected me personally when I hear stories about abuse towards women. It's just that talking about your experience as a man is a weird thing and bad waters to tread, unfortunately. Again, not sure how to say it. We kind of get shut down before we make our point. Maybe we deserve it?

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2016/11/08/election-cartoons/all-houses-matter.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.2x.jpg

^^ This is the simplest way I can sum it up.

Men can be, are sometimes are, victims of sexual abuse / assault. But it is so infinitesimally rare compared to men doing this to women. It's not an epidemic. It's not a worldwide, systemic plague that governs the lives of men the way that it governs the lives of women. There was a list of things that women usually "have" to do if they go out for a night on the town that men rarely even THINK about doing - things like guarding their drinks, checking in with friends, making sure their friends know where they'll be when they leave to meet a first date, having 9 and 1 already typed in on their phone when they're walking to their car. The comments section was full of stores where women put up with shit they don't deserve to put up with because they've been conditioned to take the safest, most passive route out in order to avoid a potentially life-threatening conflict.

I was out for a walk in a wooded trail in a statistically safe / low-crime area in broad daylight the other day. A woman - clearly fit and probably able to easily kick my scrawny ass - was out running, came around a bend in the trail, looked visibly shocked at the sight of me (a man, alone), and veered as far away from me as the trail would allow. It was a wide trail; this was definitely not an "I don't want to accidentally knock him over" courtesy veer. A guy out running wouldn't react that way if he came across a woman out walking alone because there is NOTHING in his mind that's saying "oh god, what if this woman is one of the bad ones?".

Stuff like this *sometimes* happens to men, but it's *always* happening to women. So when a man walks into a conversation about women being abused and makes any attempt to say "hey, what about us?", it's a little tone-deaf. Conversations about women being abused by men are about a global epidemic. Men being abused by women? No intelligent woman thinks that it doesn't happen, but they know that it's on such a massively different scale that it really just kind of seems like yet another example of men trying to make things about themselves.

The best thing we can do is be allies. That doesn't mean stepping into a conversation about women being assaulted and trying to make it about how we're sometimes assaulted too. It means stepping into a conversation, acknowledging that there is a massive problem, and maybe asking what you can do to help make that problem go away. Look at it another way: you support equal treatment for people regardless of whether they're straight or gay, right? But let's say you're straight. You're not going to walk into a conversation about someone getting murdered for being gay and go "STRAIGHT PEOPLE GET MURDERED TOO!". But what you can do is acknowledge that they're facing discrimination, add your voice to the list of those who support and respect them, and raise that voice if they ask for help being heard.

tl;dr: There's a time and a place to raise concerns about men being assaulted, and conversations about women being assaulted isn't that time or place. You can be an ally and a supporter without making it about you.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiIzcLVxuvXAhVI8IMKHVXfBlsQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vulture.com%2F2016%2F11%2Fele ction-cartoonists.html&psig=AOvVaw3hsi80Si2txT-Uq25IpGGM&ust=1512311746137948

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj17Jm9xuvXAhUi3IMKHV6jBgkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchainsawsuit.com%2Fcomic%2Farchiv e%2F2014%2F12%2F08%2Fall-things-considered%2F&psig=AOvVaw3hsi80Si2txT-Uq25IpGGM&ust=1512311746137948

[ton]

http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2016/11/08/election-cartoons/all-houses-matter.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.2x.jpg

^^ This is the simplest way I can sum it up.

Men can be, are sometimes are, victims of sexual abuse / assault. But it is so infinitesimally rare compared to men doing this to women. It's not an epidemic. It's not a worldwide, systemic plague that governs the lives of men the way that it governs the lives of women. There was a list of things that women usually "have" to do if they go out for a night on the town that men rarely even THINK about doing - things like guarding their drinks, checking in with friends, making sure their friends know where they'll be when they leave to meet a first date, having 9 and 1 already typed in on their phone when they're walking to their car. The comments section was full of stores where women put up with shit they don't deserve to put up with because they've been conditioned to take the safest, most passive route out in order to avoid a potentially life-threatening conflict.

I was out for a walk in a wooded trail in a statistically safe / low-crime area in broad daylight the other day. A woman - clearly fit and probably able to easily kick my scrawny ass - was out running, came around a bend in the trail, looked visibly shocked at the sight of me (a man, alone), and veered as far away from me as the trail would allow. It was a wide trail; this was definitely not an "I don't want to accidentally knock him over" courtesy veer. A guy out running wouldn't react that way if he came across a woman out walking alone because there is NOTHING in his mind that's saying "oh god, what if this woman is one of the bad ones?".

Stuff like this *sometimes* happens to men, but it's *always* happening to women. So when a man walks into a conversation about women being abused and makes any attempt to say "hey, what about us?", it's a little tone-deaf. Conversations about women being abused by men are about a global epidemic. Men being abused by women? No intelligent woman thinks that it doesn't happen, but they know that it's on such a massively different scale that it really just kind of seems like yet another example of men trying to make things about themselves.

The best thing we can do is be allies. That doesn't mean stepping into a conversation about women being assaulted and trying to make it about how we're sometimes assaulted too. It means stepping into a conversation, acknowledging that there is a massive problem, and maybe asking what you can do to help make that problem go away. Look at it another way: you support equal treatment for people regardless of whether they're straight or gay, right? But let's say you're straight. You're not going to walk into a conversation about someone getting murdered for being gay and go "STRAIGHT PEOPLE GET MURDERED TOO!". But what you can do is acknowledge that they're facing discrimination, add your voice to the list of those who support and respect them, and raise that voice if they ask for help being heard.

tl;dr: There's a time and a place to raise concerns about men being assaulted, and conversations about women being assaulted isn't that time or place. You can be an ally and a supporter without making it about you.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiIzcLVxuvXAhVI8IMKHVXfBlsQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vulture.com%2F2016%2F11%2Fele ction-cartoonists.html&psig=AOvVaw3hsi80Si2txT-Uq25IpGGM&ust=1512311746137948

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj17Jm9xuvXAhUi3IMKHV6jBgkQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchainsawsuit.com%2Fcomic%2Farchiv e%2F2014%2F12%2F08%2Fall-things-considered%2F&psig=AOvVaw3hsi80Si2txT-Uq25IpGGM&ust=1512311746137948

I agree with all of this and it's opened my eyes more actually. I am wrong in so many ways. I may feel bad about my mistakes and what I say but I'm trying to learn.

[Louie_Cypher]

Women DO make unsolicited sexual advances, especially when they are in groups or drunk (or both). Watching women behave in that kind of setting (in groups + alcohol) is very eye-opening. A good buddy of mine used to work at a strip club for ladies and he had the marks to prove it: lots of scratches and some bruises, when it was supposed to be just dancing and maybe feeling up.

The difference is how men/women react to it.

For a straight man, having a random woman grabbing your dick, pinching your ass, or trying to kiss you out of the blue is more or less the equivalent of a woman being given a new pair of shoes by a random stranger. Sure, it might not be your favourite pair of shoes, or you might not even like those shoes at all, but it doesn’t hurt and it’s not that big of a deal.

Let’s stop portraying women like their shit doesn’t smell. They are as much of an asshole as men are, it just shows in different ways, but they are just as human, just as good, just as bad. went back and forth to respond they do it to are bad foundations for discussion i don't dismiss it immediately like i do name calling here's things in life a re very rarely 1:1 to many variables on each side, at this point in history most things have been done, so I can justify any kind of behavior, no matter how foul, by saying but so and so did it. do women commit acts of sexual misconduct of course they do. does that excuse men. no. 90% percent of serial killers are white males. does that make serial killing OK?no.
it goes a lot deeper than that, to lengthy to get into on an internet forum. but how we reward or punish people in our modern society. so when we see people behaving badly it's usually deeper than the action when we see rich people arrested for drunk driving, we go why didn't the get a cab or Uber. so when some like Matt gets busted who made 48 million a year not even in my comprehension, last time i checked that kind of cash could probably get you a pretty high end pro. who would act or do anything you wanted. when we see an pandemic of bad behavior, we have to look at causes and solutions, and building constructive dialogue, and before you call me a cuck lefty, snowflake bastard, it starts, at home teaching you sons the correct way to treat to treat woman with respect and equality. and yes that starts with you Mr. president, using the term pussy as term for woman is a derogatory slur and you should be called out on it, you are a bad example for your children and our country. OK I'm done for now. As per a discussion last night with someone who has kids of both genders. asked. So I guess we can't have hero's anymore? to which I explained yes, but also explain in non religious terms that all humans are flawed. why that behavior is wrong, what the right behavior would be. again sorry for being long winded.
-Louie

[ton]

I'll delete my post since it could be seen as offensive.

[theimage13]

Women DO make unsolicited sexual advances, especially when they are in groups or drunk (or both). Watching women behave in that kind of setting (in groups + alcohol) is very eye-opening. A good buddy of mine used to work at a strip club for ladies and he had the marks to prove it: lots of scratches and some bruises, when it was supposed to be just dancing and maybe feeling up.

The difference is how men/women react to it.

For a straight man, having a random woman grabbing your dick, pinching your ass, or trying to kiss you out of the blue is more or less the equivalent of a woman being given a new pair of shoes by a random stranger. Sure, it might not be your favourite pair of shoes, or you might not even like those shoes at all, but it doesn’t hurt and it’s not that big of a deal.

Let’s stop portraying women like their shit doesn’t smell. They are as much of an asshole as men are, it just shows in different ways, but they are just as human, just as good, just as bad.

What the fuck are you talking about?

First off all, that "new pair of shoes" bullshit is incredibly sexist. Fuck that.

Second of all, let me be perfectly clear about this: if a drunk woman came up to me and grabbed my ass or my dick or tried to make a move on me, my reactions would be one of the below, in no particular order:
1) Try to find a friend of hers who appears sober and get the woman some help sobering up,
2) Brush it off entirely and ignore it (while still being pissed off about it), or
3) Tell her in no uncertain terms to fuck off because I'm not interested in some drunk woman sexually harassing me (note, I would have to already be in a really, really bad mood and probably actually know the woman - it's not in my nature to get angry with strangers)

Let me be perfectly clear about what my reaction would NOT be:
1) This is great!
2) This is pretty good.
3) This is remotely acceptable behavior that I am not completely upset about.

Let's stop portraying sexual harassment as something that's GOOD if a woman does it to a man. That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. And let's stop the idiotic "women love shoes" sexist bullshit stereotypes while we're at it. They're not helping anybody.

[tremolo]

I think there's a thing where women are (sometimes) considered less of a threat so men (sometimes) respond to it differently. I also think women don't feel the need to be as cognizant of their behavior (sometimes) because they feel like the possibility of being a creep doesn't apply to them. Also, if a woman does sexually assault a man, it's possible that the "are they going to kill me/beat me up" thing exists as a lower threat, but the shoes analogy makes me sad and I don't like it. I think the expectation of men responding that way can compound trauma for a lot of men.

A bit of comedic relief. It’s just a silly analogy, please don’t take it literally.

[playwithfire]

Well, I'm not taking it seriously that, no, I do not think that you think the average man processes being groped unwanted in an equivalent way to being handed shoes.

I *am* taking it seriously in the sense that, that mentality or the expectation of that mentality from men, is commonplace. And the fact that it is commonplace is sad and harmful.

While you may have framed it in a way that was attempted to be humorous, I don't think my response is any more literal than your initial comment, which while it did contain a joke, does illustrate a line of thinking that is problematic and pervasive.

[tremolo]

What the fuck are you talking about?

First off all, that "new pair of shoes" bullshit is incredibly sexist. Fuck that.

Second of all, let me be perfectly clear about this: if a drunk woman came up to me and grabbed my ass or my dick or tried to make a move on me, my reactions would be one of the below, in no particular order:
1) Try to find a friend of hers who appears sober and get the woman some help sobering up,
2) Brush it off entirely and ignore it (while still being pissed off about it), or
3) Tell her in no uncertain terms to fuck off because I'm not interested in some drunk woman sexually harassing me (note, I would have to already be in a really, really bad mood and probably actually know the woman - it's not in my nature to get angry with strangers)

Let me be perfectly clear about what my reaction would NOT be:
1) This is great!
2) This is pretty good.
3) This is remotely acceptable behavior that I am not completely upset about.

Let's stop portraying sexual harassment as something that's GOOD if a woman does it to a man. That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. And let's stop the idiotic "women love shoes" sexist bullshit stereotypes while we're at it. They're not helping anybody.

The analogy is just as sexist as people generalizing and talking about men in general based on a certain group of douchebags abusing women. I find it amusing how certain stereotypes are a complete taboo and get people up in arms, but other stereotypes can be brushed off like “meh, whatever, no big deal”. I guess it depends on what fits a certain narrative and what doesn’t.

It’s interesting that you didn’t mention “going to social media and ranting about it using the trendy hashtag that everyone is using” or “making a big deal about it”. And that is my point: as uncomfortable as it might be, for a man in general is not a big deal –unless of course it goes too far– because sexuality is not approached in the same way by men and women.

What we have here is a switch of standards, from one that allowed men to get away with reprehensible behaviour to another that sets the female perspective as the new set of rules.

[tremolo]

went back and forth to respond they do it to are bad foundations for discussion i don't dismiss it immediately like i do name calling here's things in life a re very rarely 1:1 to many variables on each side, at this point in history most things have been done, so I can justify any kind of behavior, no matter how foul, by saying but so and so did it. do women commit acts of sexual misconduct of course they do. does that excuse men. no. 90% percent of serial killers are white males. does that make serial killing OK?no.
it goes a lot deeper than that, to lengthy to get into on an internet forum. but how we reward or punish people in our modern society. so when we see people behaving badly it's usually deeper than the action when we see rich people arrested for drunk driving, we go why didn't the get a cab or Uber. so when some like Matt gets busted who made 48 million a year not even in my comprehension, last time i checked that kind of cash could probably get you a pretty high end pro. who would act or do anything you wanted. when we see an pandemic of bad behavior, we have to look at causes and solutions, and building constructive dialogue, and before you call me a cuck lefty, snowflake bastard, it starts, at home teaching you sons the correct way to treat to treat woman with respect and equality. and yes that starts with you Mr. president, using the term pussy as term for woman is a derogatory slur and you should be called out on it, you are a bad example for your children and our country. OK I'm done for now. As per a discussion last night with someone who has kids of both genders. asked. So I guess we can't have hero's anymore? to which I explained yes, but also explain in non religious terms that all humans are flawed. why that behavior is wrong, what the right behavior would be. again sorry for being long winded.
-Louie

You must have misunderstood my post.

By no means I’m justifying that shitty behaviour by saying “everybody does it”. That’s just plain stupid.

[cashpiles (closed)]

The analogy is just as sexist as people generalizing and talking about men in general based on a certain group of douchebags abusing women. I find it amusing how certain stereotypes are a complete taboo and get people up in arms, but other stereotypes can be brushed off like “meh, whatever, no big deal”. I guess it depends on what fits a certain narrative and what doesn’t.

It’s interesting that you didn’t mention “going to social media and ranting about it using the trendy hashtag that everyone is using” or “making a big deal about it”. And that is my point: as uncomfortable as it might be, for a man in general is not a big deal –unless of course it goes too far– because sexuality is not approached in the same way by men and women.

What we have here is a switch of standards, from one that allowed men to get away with reprehensible behaviour to another that sets the female perspective as the new set of rules.

This might be a step towards more equal rights for women in society. So men must control their behavior, because it can cause harm. However, what about women helping men by wearing clothing that doesn't draw men's eyes to the parts of women's bodies that women don't like random men looking at. It's sometimes almost an automatic reaction to look at cleavage. I have to catch myself after I do it and look away. It's so awkward.

[playwithfire]

Dude, no one gives a shit if you look at cleavage and catch yourself and look away. It's only awkward if you make it awkward. Nobody needs to "help" anyone be less creepy.

[theimage13]

This might be a step towards more equal rights for women in society. So men must control their behavior, because it can cause harm. However, what about women helping men by wearing clothing that doesn't draw men's eyes to the parts of women's bodies that women don't like random men looking.

THAT'S CALLED VICTIM BLAMING

Sorry, that needed to be yelled because it's a huge fucking problem. If you can't stop looking at a woman's tits, that is not her fault and not her problem. Control yourself or lock yourself at home. It has not, is not, and will NEVER be a woman's fault that YOU couldn't stop looking or keep your hands off of her. Period. End of story.

[cashpiles (closed)]

THAT'S CALLED VICTIM BLAMING

Sorry, that needed to be yelled because it's a huge fucking problem. If you can't stop looking at a woman's tits, that is not her fault and not her problem. Control yourself or lock yourself at home. It has not, is not, and will NEVER be a woman's fault that YOU couldn't stop looking or keep your hands off of her. Period. End of story.

So how about I walk around with part of my dick visible? And then I’ll get TONS of UNWANTED looks. It’s such a double standard.

[Sarah K]

Dick and tits are not equal.

[allegro]

Nope. Female breasts are biologically there for one reason: to feed babies. They're not biologically intended to be sexual. Our culture made them sexual.

And, dressing provocatively is not and has never been an invitation to be assaulted or even ogled, particularly in the workplace. Stop blaming women for your stupidity and caveman primitivity.

Many of these guys accused of sexual misconduct WHIPPED OUT THEIR RESPECTIVE DICKS IN THE OFFICE.

IN THE OFFICE.

Like, who DOES that except for powerful evil assholes?

If somebody did that to me, seriously, I'd run screaming and then I'd cry. A lot.

It's not sexy, it's not interesting, it's not anything except scary and awful.

this is not a "female perspective" -- this is a civilized human being perspective.

Personally, I am LOVING this whole thing because it's making the harassment and abuse a DANGEROUS ACTIVITY. Not an acceptable activity that's covered up.

[Sarah K]

The analogy is just as sexist as people generalizing and talking about men in general based on a(n) certain group of douchebags abusing women epidemic of sexual harassment and violence that women face every day.


This belief that there is a very small percentage of men who have inappropriate boundaries and behavior when it comes to women is a myth.

[tremolo]

this might be a step towards more equal rights for women in society. So men must control their behavior, because it can cause harm. However, what about women helping men by wearing clothing that doesn't draw men's eyes to the parts of women's bodies that women don't like random men looking at. It's sometimes almost an automatic reaction to look at cleavage. I have to catch myself after i do it and look away. It's so awkward.

i have the right to show as much of my body as i want, but don’t you dare look at me or i’ll get offended, you degenerate pig!

[tremolo]

So how about I walk around with part of my dick visible? And then I’ll get TONS of UNWANTED looks. It’s such a double standard.

You’re a man, therefore the same rules don’t apply to you.

If you show up wearing no underwear and thin white pants that outline every vein on your dick, everyone will be up in arms and ready to complain for your offensive degenerate behaviour.

[tremolo]

This belief that there is a very small percentage of men who have inappropriate boundaries and behavior when it comes to women is a myth.

Of course it is a myth, if that fits your narrative.

[tremolo]

Nope. Female breasts are biologically there for one reason: to feed babies. They're not biologically intended to be sexual. Our culture made them sexual.

And, dressing provocatively is not and has never been an invitation to be assaulted or even ogled, particularly in the workplace. Stop blaming women for your stupidity and caveman primitivity.

Many of these guys accused of sexual misconduct WHIPPED OUT THEIR RESPECTIVE DICKS IN THE OFFICE.

IN THE OFFICE.

Like, who DOES that except for powerful evil assholes?

If somebody did that to me, seriously, I'd run screaming and then I'd cry. A lot.

It's not sexy, it's not interesting, it's not anything except scary and awful.

this is not a "female perspective" -- this is a civilized human being perspective.

Personally, I am LOVING this whole thing because it's making the harassment and abuse a DANGEROUS ACTIVITY. Not an acceptable activity that's covered up.

And this is how ONE post by a random anonymous user of the internet debunks decades of studies and research in psychology and sexuality.

Reality is our behaviour is not strictly biological.

Under your limited perspective, mouths are there for feeding, speaking and breathing, not for sucking dicks, eating pussy or even kissing. Same thing could be said for the anus: it is there for shitting, not for taking dicks or any objects.

Now you know, gay people, you got it all wrong.

[tremolo]

Dick and tits are not equal.

Just like men and women.

[theimage13]

i have the right to show as much of my body as i want, but don’t you dare look at me or i’ll get offended, you degenerate pig!

Look: the vast majority of people on this planet are sexually attracted to other people. Looking is natural.

Here's the problem.

The DOJ's low estimate for the number of women raped each year is 300,000. Three. Hundred. Thousand. The high estimate is 1.3 million.

Women have every reason in the world to wonder what a "look" could turn into.

[tremolo]

Look: the vast majority of people on this planet are sexually attracted to other people. Looking is natural.

Here's the problem.

The DOJ's low estimate for the number of women raped each year is 300,000. Three. Hundred. Thousand. The high estimate is 1.3 million.

Women have every reason in the world to wonder what a "look" could turn into.

I know what you mean, but some of those overreactions seem pretty ridiculous to me. We coud state the same about murder victims, but I don’t think anyone would truly benefit from a constant state of paranoia.

There has to be a minimum of common sense from all parties involved. Sexual harrasment, sexual misconduct, rape, etc, are reprehensible behaviours, and society seems to be gearing towards less and less tolerance towards those who do that shit, and there are laws already in place to punish those acts. However, there’s a long way to go to get to the point where people will genuinely respect one another, so, while that happens, while we get there, everyone would benefit from a bit of common sense.

I think I have the right and should have the freedom to walk around the sketchiest neighbourhoods wearing a suit made of $100 bills without having to be worried about my safety. But that’s not the reality we live in today. And while I believeas a society we should head towards that goal, common sense tells me maybe I should choose a better time and place to wear my suit. That does not mean I cater to the bad guys, it only means I understand that we’re not quite there yet, and that my own safety and well-being are more important than being stubborn, making a point, or any cause I might believe in.

Some people will say that’s victim-blaming. I disagree. I truly believe that all of us should be free to wear whatever we want without it being a reason for judgement, but until we get there, a bit of common sense should be mandatory: being aware of the situation right here right now.

[Mantra]

I think I have the right and should have the freedom to walk around the sketchiest neighbourhoods wearing a suit made of $100 bills without having to be worried about my safety. But that’s not the reality we live in today.

Yeah but this is an obnoxious comparison to make in a thread about sexual assault. The victims in all these cases were not doing anything remotely comparable to "walking around the sketchiest neighborhoods wearing a suit made of $100 bills." They were simply existing.

[tremolo]

Yeah but this is an obnoxious comparison to make in a thread about sexual assault. The victims in all these cases were not doing anything remotely comparable to "walking around the sketchiest neighborhoods wearing a suit made of $100 bills." They were simply existing.

It was all referred to a post above that had to do with cleavage and men looking.

[Mantra]

It was all referred to a post above that had to do with cleavage and men looking.

Yes I know.

And the whole reason "cleavage and men looking" was being discussed in the first place was because Cashpiles said: "men must control their behavior, because it can cause harm. However, what about women helping men by wearing clothing that doesn't draw men's eyes to the parts of women's bodies that women don't like random men looking at."

This was a ludicrous statement with no relevance to a thread about sexual assault. Nor did the ensuing conversation that it inspired have any relevance to the thread topic. The only reason someone would bring this up in a thread about sexual assault would be to suggest that women's clothing has something to do with men "controlling their behavior" (i.e: not raping). Which it clearly doesn't.

[playwithfire]

I remember when I used to work retail, when I'd work an opening shift I'd need to leave my house around 3ish to take the bus/train into the city to get to work on time. I lived in a pretty safe neighborhood (northern 104th precinct: https://maps.nyc.gov/crime/) and I had a few especially not-great experiences of street harassment (being yelled at or asked super inappropriate questions or having my personal space invaded vs. merely catcalling) as I walked to the bus or train alone, or within the subway system (something I now have the means to opt the fuck out of at that hour and would, because street harassment sucks) -- and I remember, if I wore a green hoodie (https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/524273_10151439039245364_1089014266_n.jpg?oh=a5e1b d1945b18c703d4f92700e76c57e&oe=5A998456) I owned instead of my myriad of black ones, the amount of catcalling, etc, I'd receive would notably tick up. A fucking. Green. Hoodie.

That I've never received a lot of street harassment compared to my peers. Everryyynow and then it happens. It lessened even more when I got a little fat and cut my hair, which, added bonus. That said, I was sort of assaulted last year when I was kinda grabbed by a guy while I was on the phone with someone (I was actually conducting an interview, and just kept going) -- it was a confusing, blurry experience. I think I was wearing a big baggy army jacket.

cashpiles observation was bad. It's a stupid thing to give any credence to beyond "no, not a thing." Yes, a woman SHOULD be able to walk through a bad neighborhood in a bikini (though really, how many rapists work on Wall Street and are named Chet, so kinda fuck that implication as far as classism goes) but I remember how wearing A COLOR would up my harassment because people are absolute garbage.

[tremolo]

Yes I know.

And the whole reason "cleavage and men looking" was being discussed in the first place was because Cashpiles said: "men must control their behavior, because it can cause harm. However, what about women helping men by wearing clothing that doesn't draw men's eyes to the parts of women's bodies that women don't like random men looking at."

This was a ludicrous statement with no relevance to a thread about sexual assault. Nor did the ensuing conversation that it inspired have any relevance to the thread topic. The only reason someone would bring this up in a thread about sexual assault would be to suggest that women's clothing has something to do with men "controlling their behavior" (i.e: not raping). Which it clearly doesn't.

Well, you don’t get to dictate what is relevant and what not, or the value of other people’s opinions, but apparently you think you do.

It’s funny how you made one interpretation of what cashpiles said, and i made a different one... it almost makes me think that maybe out interpretations of what we perceive are not absolute because what we read into it is shaped by our own personal experiences which might not be the same to everybody else’s... what a crazy world, eh?

[playwithfire]

Also, poll, do any women in this thread give a fuck if a man looks at their cleavage? Because HOLY FUCK I don't. I care if someone LEERS or STARES which is a choice and not someone just looking at shit. If they're spending 45 seconds staring at my chest, hey, get a hobby. But a look? God, I don't give a shit. And people thinking this is an issue is just indicitive of them needing several clues.

[Mantra]

Well, you don’t get to dictate what is relevant and what not, or the value of other people’s opinions, but apparently you think you do.

Why do you feel that me expressing my thoughts is "dictating"? We're just posting things on a message board. And I am simply pointing out basic facts of reality, such as: a woman's choice of clothing has nothing to do with men learning how to "control their behavior."

[allegro]

Also, poll, do any women in this thread give a fuck if a man looks at their cleavage? Because HOLY FUCK I don't. I care if someone LEERS or STARES which is a choice and not someone just looking at shit. If they're spending 45 seconds staring at my chest, hey, get a hobby. But a look? God, I don't give a shit. And people thinking this is an issue is just indicitive of them needing several clues.

Yeah I don’t care, either; if I’m putting my tits out there, it means I like my tits.

And it ain’t about my sexuality, it’s about me and my tits. I liken it to guys and their biceps. Sun’s out, guns out.

But I’m not reading this thread, anymore; it actually gives me a stomach ache. I wish we had an “ignore thread” feature here.

[Jinsai]

Also, poll, do any women in this thread give a fuck if a man looks at their cleavage? Because HOLY FUCK I don't. I care if someone LEERS or STARES which is a choice and not someone just looking at shit. If they're spending 45 seconds staring at my chest, hey, get a hobby. But a look? God, I don't give a shit. And people thinking this is an issue is just indicitive of them needing several clues.

I'm not a woman, but... A quick glance? It's impossible not to if they're on display. I'm in a relationship, and I'm happy, so I even try to avoid "looking at the menu" but it's impulsive... No, I don't stare. But your eyes just go there. It's instinct. It's part of taking in what you're seeing. Ogling or staring would be weird, single or not.

[Louie_Cypher]

never though i would post this but... maybe this thread needs to be locked. sexual assault is a pretty touchy subject easily misinterpreted especially on an internet message board. look I find ETS'ers to be some of the smarter out there. but given the anonymous nature. I know people who have undergone sexually traumatic events and even things that most would find innocuous can trigger them in to pretty intense anxiety attacks. which i wouldn't. want for anyone who posts here. I know we're all adults here but we should treat this thread with a little extra sensitivity. OK carry on maybe I'm over empathetic, but sexual trauma, can cause really deep physiological scars. maybe I'm a whatever, I sometimes find it amusing if can find a new creative insult for me, but so far in life when ever I say I've said I've seen or heard it all I'm find I'm wrong as the Chinese curse states, may you live in interesting times.
-Louie

[playwithfire]

I'm not a woman, but... A quick glance? It's impossible not to if they're on display. I'm in a relationship, and I'm happy, so I even try to avoid "looking at the menu" but it's impulsive... No, I don't stare. But your eyes just go there. It's instinct. It's part of taking in what you're seeing. Ogling or staring would be weird, single or not.

Strong same. Generally, you notice, but you get on with your life. I don't think there's anything wrong in noticing someone, and I don't care if people notice me. Like, I'm super attracted to women. I mostly date women. And there are absolutely shitty predatory queer women, but for some reason, I don't see dialogues about how hard it is for queer women to control themselves with other women, everywhere.

It's insulting to everyone, to make arguments about how men "just can't help themselves" and distracts from the fact that none of us give a fuck about having our cleavage noticed and are talking about sexual harassment, here.

[theimage13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l26UFQ06eQ

Reasonably relevant to this thread.

edit: JFC, don't read the comment section on that unless you want your blood pressure to spike.

[playwithfire]

So good!

[tremolo]

Why do you feel that me expressing my thoughts is "dictating"? We're just posting things on a message board. And I am simply pointing out basic facts of reality, such as: a woman's choice of clothing has nothing to do with men learning how to "control their behavior."

Because that’s what you are saying, dictating what is relevant to the discusion and what not. Read that previous post of yours, that’s exactly what you did. It might not relevant to you, but if that’s the case that’s your problem only.

[playwithfire]

^^^ fwiw I also thought it wasn't relevant.

John Oliver did a good thing (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2017/12/04/john-oliver-grills-dustin-hoffman-over-sexual-harassment-allegation/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.b7ccc4234a11)

[theimage13]

Welcome to sexual misconduct in America, where everything is made up and the points don't matter.

Convicted rapist and generally shitty affluent white boy seeks to have his sexual assault conviction overturned (http://time.com/5047213/brock-turner-rape-trial-appeal-conviction/)

[MrLobster]

Masterson is finally gone. (http://www.cbc.ca/1.4433331)

[theimage13]

Masterson is finally gone. (http://www.cbc.ca/1.4433331)

And so is Conyers (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/us/politics/john-conyers-election.html?_r=0).

[theimage13]

https://cdn1.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/portrait_300x450/2017/12/person-of-year-2017-time-magazine-cover1.jpg

I am in love with this. As much as I would have loved to see Kap get the honor - for no other reason than to read the news about the president's heart attack following the announcement - I am so happy to see this as the decision for 2017. Love this decision.

[thevoid99]

Why is Taylor Swift on the cover? Didn't she make a career out of singing about men who were only with her for a while? She's just as bad as these sexual harassers.

[sweeterthan]

Why is Taylor Swift on the cover? Didn't she make a career out of singing about men who were only with her for a while? She's just as bad as these sexual harassers.
Swift sued her assailant in court for $1 and won. I think it's a bad ass move for sure and i really want to not like her. But I'd rather see Rose on the cover. She's been so raw since coming out about what happened. I love her for it. Swifty sells tho. She's massive.

[sweeterthan]

never though i would post this but... maybe this thread needs to be locked. sexual assault is a pretty touchy subject easily misinterpreted especially on an internet message board. look I find ETS'ers to be some of the smarter out there. but given the anonymous nature. I know people who have undergone sexually traumatic events and even things that most would find innocuous can trigger them in to pretty intense anxiety attacks. which i wouldn't. want for anyone who posts here. I know we're all adults here but we should treat this thread with a little extra sensitivity. OK carry on maybe I'm over empathetic, but sexual trauma, can cause really deep physiological scars. maybe I'm a whatever, I sometimes find it amusing if can find a new creative insult for me, but so far in life when ever I say I've said I've seen or heard it all I'm find I'm wrong as the Chinese curse states, may you live in interesting times.
-Louie
I think the discussion is relevant and the thread should stay open. Yes some opinions posted are not just wrong but completely fucked up but hopefully by posting they are learning something.

[october_midnight]

Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2748012-warren-moon-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-harassing-drugging-assistant?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-league) with some sleazy AF shit...

[Mantra]

Looks like Franken is going down.

[theimage13]

Looks like Franken is going down.

Tweet from yesterday:

"Senator Franken is talking with his family at this time and plans to make an announcement in DC tomorrow."

Yeah, that sounds like a run-up to a resignation announcement. Too bad it's only Democrats that have the decency to resign after being called out for their absurd behavior. This shouldn't be a political or partisan thing, but when only one party does the right thing in light of learning someone's a scumbag...

[Louie_Cypher]

republican's always play the demo's like a violin, or charlie brown and Lucy with a football thinking they will do the right thing. they don't, Roy will take his seat in the senate with a smile on his face. continue being a pedophile, pushing anti-abortion laws until one of his child gfs gets pregnant. pounding his bible and pointing his crooked finger at others i think AL should stay if only for this reason alone.
-louie

[Mantra]

Too bad it's only Democrats that have the decency to resign after being called out for their absurd behavior. This shouldn't be a political or partisan thing, but when only one party does the right thing in light of learning someone's a scumbag...

Yeah but, realistically, Republicans are openly hostile to women, so it's kind of futile to ever expect anything remotely decent from them. Honestly, I have never had any doubt in my mind that they would fail to get rid of Moore. Why would they sacrifice him? This is not an issue that they are deeply concerned about, so of course they are going to protect their abusers. This an ongoing, fundamental part of their entire culture. Yeah, they might toss out some hollow platitude here and there, but ultimately they could care less about what happens to women. But I hold Democrats to higher standards, and I would have been pissed if Franken had been allowed to stay. It's a matter of principle.

[Louie_Cypher]

still think this was a bad move, whenever the Democrats do this I am always reminded of the fable about the scorpion and the frog.
-Louie

[Sarah K]

Why do you think it was a bad move?

What do you think should have been done?

[Louie_Cypher]

Why do you think it was a bad move? it won't change anything Moore won't drop out

What do you think should have been done? stayed there to remind them of there hypocrisy
-Louie

[allegate]

That would require a level of self-awareness that I don't think most of them operate at.

[sweeterthan]

My friend thinks that the Democrats are only pressuring Franken to resign so they can go after trump. Like she thinks trump isn’t guilty just because people have accused him.

I personally believe the investigation into franken should be finished before he’s forced to resign. But I also think he should go.

Trump is in a league of his own. I mention the pussy grabber tape to her and she’s like “that’s the lifestyle he’s used to”. I’m like yeah but it’s assault. Like how can you be so oblivious to what he’s saying?

[allegate]

Franks Will Retire from Congress
December 7, 2017 at 5:16 pm ESTBy Taegan Goddard0 Comments

Rep. Trent Franks (R-AZ) is expected to resign from Congress, Roll Call reports.
“It is unclear exactly why Franks is stepping down, but one Arizona Republican said there had been rumors of inappropriate behavior. The Republican said the congressman had apparently been making plans to run for Senate in 2012, but abruptly canceled those plans.”
I don't know what the 2012 thing is about but I'm seeing this in a lot of places.

[Louie_Cypher]

franks is a horrible x-stain pro lifer glad to see him leave must have something really bad in that closet
-louie

[thevoid99]

Bryan Singer is now being hit with a rape lawsuit: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/bryan-singer-new-rape-lawsuit-fired-bohemian-rhapsody-1201905189/

I guess this is why he really got fired from the Queen movie. Good.

[aggroculture]

Franken did the right thing resigning: morally, and strategically. Someone's got to have standards around here, and hopefully some Alabama voters will take notice of that.
Roy Moore will likely still get elected, but...fuck those devils.

[allegro]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/12/06/john-conyers-legacy-resignation-scandal-2017-216017

[Mantra]

stayed there to remind them of there hypocrisy
-Louie

But this makes no sense.

Keeping Franken would only serve to make Dems look like hypocrites and make Republicans feel smugly justified for defending Moore.

[Mantra]

I don't know what the 2012 thing is about but I'm seeing this in a lot of places.

So apparently the story with this is....

Rep. Trent Franks of Arizona, who asked staffers if they would bear his child as a surrogate, says he will resign (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-trent-franks-of-arizona-is-expected-to-resign/2017/12/07/479d156a-db9f-11e7-b859-fb0995360725_story.html?utm_term=.ed924952fbb3)

wtf

[thevoid99]

I'm now reading this four-page piece about Bryan Singer's sexual assault history: http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/bryan-singer-sexual-assault-rape-allegations-timeline-1201903868/

How he got away with all of this for so many years is sickening and why he is known for being difficult is just disturbing. I hope he never works in Hollywood ever again. In fact, I hope he never makes films ever.

[aggroculture]

a FB friend of mine, a writer, is chronicling 100 episodes of abuse/assault/harassment that she has suffered throughout her life: https://www.facebook.com/chavisawoods
it's compelling and depressing and enlightening reading

[Sarah K]

Mario Batali's turn.

[theimage13]

If there are people stupid enough to believe that's real (the video, not the story / technology), then we're fucked for more reasons than you think.

Wait, hang on, I'm getting a call.

What? There are? HOW many?

Fuck.

[Sarah K]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/sports/marshall-faulk-nfl-network-sexual-harassment.html
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/nfl-harassment-suit-alleges-groping-by-top-executive-ex-players

Marshall Faulk, Ike Taylor, and Heath Evans are all suspended.

Deadspin has the complaints: https://deadspin.com/nfl-network-suspends-marshall-faulk-ike-taylor-heath-1821206708

Donovan McNabb, Eric Davis, Warran Sapp, and a former exec are also listed.

[theimage13]

I'm really sad to say "I called it" on this one, but...called it.

(https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/13/570697665/pbs-host-tavis-smiley-suspended-after-sexual-misconduct-investigation)PBS Host Tavis Smiley Suspended After Sexual Misconduct Investigation (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/13/570697665/pbs-host-tavis-smiley-suspended-after-sexual-misconduct-investigation)

[aggroculture]

more Dustin Hoffman: http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/dustin-hoffman-2-1202641525

[thevoid99]

more Dustin Hoffman: http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/dustin-hoffman-2-1202641525

As if the production of Ishtar wasn't more fucked up. Bad Dustin Hoffman. BAD!!!!!!

[elevenism]

I'm really sad to say "I called it" on this one, but...called it.

(https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/13/570697665/pbs-host-tavis-smiley-suspended-after-sexual-misconduct-investigation)PBS Host Tavis Smiley Suspended After Sexual Misconduct Investigation (https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/12/13/570697665/pbs-host-tavis-smiley-suspended-after-sexual-misconduct-investigation)well fuck me. How many more PBS/NPR personalities are going to be named?

Remind me: what caused you to already know about Smiley?

[theimage13]

well fuck me. How many more PBS/NPR personalities are going to be named?

Remind me: what caused you to already know about Smiley?

The day Charlie Rose got caught up, I started thinking it. Then when GK got fired, my mom said "who's next?". First name I thought of was Smiley. It was nothing more than a pessimistic hunch.

Next thing you know, it's gonna be someone like Carl Kasell or Peter Sagal. Again, no reason to actually suspect either of them. Just that feeling of "great, who else will pop up from the list of people I didn't think were like this".

[allegate]

At least Carl's retired! I'd say the one that would get me would be Ira Glass.

[allegate]

Joe Biden on Anita Hill: 'I owe her an apology' (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/joe-biden-on-anita-hills-sexual-harassment-testimony-i-owe-her-an-apology/ar-BBGIXoZ?OCID=ansmsnnews11)http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAYAAAA f8/9hAAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAARnQU1BAACxjwv8YQUAAAAJcEhZ cwAADsIAAA7CARUoSoAAAAE4SURBVDhPrdO/K0VxGMfxI8RVZPLjJpNBMZDFXyFlUDelWJBY/BjMSv4ImRjIwGAxKbKgFMLCIJQBi1B4v88593Sv7eBTr 7T99ye 3yfzg3 MxUojcr06cBgVP4uO1iJyqAq/ixBJirD5M N5z5PModP9OMc3ejDJerRhiv4vBUnGEOSHnwhh108xGevWEIlb nGITqzjCdUIMwIbNGIcH3DMY6yiDnc4gMuewgtqEI77CBs0YQL v8M5H2MAyvKK7KscMkgb 0hBskIUTvMGxnWALxnvvoQw2eEbYwPTCBu2YjGubOcECzBn2UQ sbuJ kQTNu4KKGcY9rjMIswqabcBK/N4 itMDlmC7MRmXQAPdygW1MYwCpcwqv5NVM0YuUT FhYe3i1uDL5YuVOv7JXN6f82PsIPgGIgBBgXOWZ0QAAAAASUVO RK5CYII=The Washington Post on MSN.com · 1d

Biden said he regretted the way Hill was treated during her 1991 sexual-harassment testimony: 'I wish I had been able to do more for Anita Hill.'
I wasn't old enough to have an interest in these hearings (I just remember seeing pubic hair getting talked about all over the place) so I don't know what it was like. But I do recall it getting some traction in the thread a couple days ago.

[theimage13]

lmao at progressives lighting themselves on fire over Matt Damon. The guy said there is a spectrum between unwanted sexual advances and rape. But that's apparently "part of the problem" .... fucking perpetually offended idiocy of that side of the culture wars.

The problem is how he worded it though. He basically said "grabbing someone's ass is no big deal" and proceeded to go on saying things that line up with the view of "we don't believe women". There's validity to saying that legally there is very much a difference between hitting on someone at a bar who isn't interested, and date raping them behind a dumpster in the alley. There's validity to needing to get the facts from all sides before a legal verdict is rendered. But the examples he gave and the way he worded several things didn't really project those views clearly - and as a rich white guy with power, he's prone to more criticism for views that don't demonstrate an extremely clear understanding of right vs wrong because he's part of one of the most problematic demographics.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Recently I’ve come to a new kind of general ethical principal of behaviour.... Hierarchal sexual behaviour (verbal, written, and physical) should be illegal.

Authority figures (police, politicians, judges, doctors) should not engage in any sexual behaviour with the populace lower on the totem pole....EVEN IF IT’S CONSENSUAL...

What is allowed though is actors using their popularity to get laid.

It’s like a woman “dressing to impress” to boost her desirability (power) to attract a man.

[Krazy]

Although details are still a bit “gray” (harassment and apparently a racial slur), Jerry Richardson is selling the Carolina Panthers...

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21798557/carolina-panthers-owner-jerry-richardson-selling-nfl-team

[thevoid99]

And Gene Simmons is filing suit over claim that he sexually assaulted a radio DJ. And I'm sure he'll find a way to make money out of that trial. That low-class cum-bucket will do anything for a $1. I bet he would even kill his own mother for a $1. I'd bet if I took a shit on a cereal bowl and pay him a buck to eat it. He'd do it.

[theimage13]

Recently I’ve come to a new kind of general ethical principal of behaviour.... Hierarchal sexual behaviour (verbal, written, and physical) should be illegal.

No.

Stop.

First we had "couples can't be biracial".

Then we had "couples can't be the same sex".

What would possibly make you think it's a good idea to literally make it illegal for certain adults to have a consensual relationship?

[thevoid99]

Apparently, Alice Glass wasn't the only person Ethan Kath had sexually assaulted when she was a minor: https://pitchfork.com/news/crystal-castles-ethan-kath-under-investigation-for-sex-crimes/

What a fucking scumbag.

[mfte]

Off with his head.http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/matt-damon-oceans-8-petition-ro-remove-trailer-release-date-harvey-weinstein-commet-sexual-a8127041.html

[cashpiles (closed)]

Off with his head.http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/matt-damon-oceans-8-petition-ro-remove-trailer-release-date-harvey-weinstein-commet-sexual-a8127041.html

I’m with Damon on this one... there is always a chance that the accusation is false. Case by case

[playwithfire]

This best part about that take is that Matt Damon's commentary was harmfully derailing and THE IRONY

[sweeterthan]

Matt Damon was buddies with Weinstein and still props up Affleck. His opinion on the subject is shit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[allegate]

Miguel Sano denies assaulting photographer: 'It never happened' (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/miguel-sano-denies-assaulting-photographer-%E2%80%98it-never-happened%E2%80%99/ar-BBHslAA?OCID=ansmsnnews11)http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAABAAAAAQCAYAAAA f8/9hAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAlwSFlzAAAOwgAADsIBFShKgAAAAkNJREFUOE V011IU2Ecx/ERXUVBFxER1U01IiSzLqJhb4iW2bIXlHL0ZhlzpDEyx2zkvMhN NteLoDUWGtayuWWbLNccIb0Q1tIwHLqJWw7Pcl4MG6buxaffsz YZtaIuPpznHJ7/F85zOKxIJJgLPOBDeZwQxCAFGaji5CABARwHDsujuRXyNClIwv x8aBCG6Nod52xUkMZ6KbmtrI7RNCnnBgfsn6PRsJ7FmJ4wow21 JOHb0KcJKnZ/5ydrfQ1RysS/ eobe8UKfBl555JLiKsOcGXM inG3D7llFWRBKWknOi06qCqThKWXrtEqBqwPjeMshhmzDbSIJt 2iAWEcimvzw3XisIOEZ9QtooSIhScJP0f3zB9QNcJj1vvjrOi0 dmbkz3mgb5TeSSVqmN7SAF3J7G/fzms097z0nVCt0VvR2CmIhL5/rCvOH 290gmSfaCyyE5uzeldJ63fxpzRvoZD0K1Uy5y92SsJslKNy4j7 DWLUrp6mefFnJYGMqFsxu82/RrYunbxwgD/HNd3NHdbIDkiqSx20EAGnIX79qLsQGJYnbZiYSNl7Wrr9/vdr5OfHc5Jn6SBzVAAqv8NcLO3 GlgA8TO4W BVK Ql5Xmo4F1sBfKPhTum/hTIBXFjStmGlgF2 FEbz7H8y BdPbSkFBQ BYzF2lgOayHXeOGZom3Ta1hjK0GZ cjS ezBzbK1NFiNT5t7upo1xi7LboW7K2E05BFA0tgJbCBA4egCC5A aRz91UvgDNADPwA7IpEg wdjFXytlSpFVQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==Larry Brown Sports on MSN.com · 19h

The Minnesota Twins third baseman has been accused of assaulting a photographer in 2015, but he says the allegations against him are baseless.
is this really the best time to make bad puns?

[eversonpoe]

http://78.media.tumblr.com/972715a58403492594d6a38edfd8bd48/tumblr_oy9dzj2Aoi1qzcvl5o1_500.jpg

https://eversonpoe.bandcamp.com/track/all-yr-idols

i made a new song that was born out of my frustration with how many people are turning out to be sexual predators. they need to be held accountable for their actions, and survivors need to be provided with support. all proceeds will go to RAINN.

[october_midnight]

Oh boy...he denies it, but Stan Lee (https://www.avclub.com/stan-lee-denies-report-claiming-he-sexually-harassed-nu-1821921296) is on the chopping block now.

[mfte]

Oh boy...he denies it, but Stan Lee (https://www.avclub.com/stan-lee-denies-report-claiming-he-sexually-harassed-nu-1821921296) is on the chopping block now.

uh oh, no more cameos.

[october_midnight]

uh oh, no more cameos.

Well, it is​ an article in The Daily Mail which is...let's call them, less than reputable.

[mfte]

Well, it is​ an article in The Daily Mail which is...let's call them, less than reputable.

You're right. Who knows. Not sure what to think about anything anymore.
I just made my self a negroni, put on those old Mel Gibson Oksana tapes and reminisced about a simpler time.


James "Artist" Franco is getting lit up

https://globalnews.ca/news/3953994/james-franco-sexual-harassment-accusers/

[thelastdisciple]

Colbert asked Franco about the accusations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpEuHHMy-Z8

[M1ke]

Colbert asked Franco about the accusations.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpEuHHMy-Z8

I'm not buying Franco's denials at all, but part of what he said did make me stop to wonder about something.

If you're a fine upstanding celebrity, and you want to support equality, and want to support women who are making these accusations, but then you get hit with an accusation yourself, how do you handle that?

If it is false, I mean. If it's true then you're not a fine upstanding celebrity, and you should just own up to it, take responsibility and face the consequences. I also understand that false accusations are extremely rare, something around the 2% mark, but if it happened, what would you do? Do you just ignore it? Do you deny it?

I mean, you wouldn't want to muddy the waters and stem the tide of women coming forward, it's a marvelous thing that's happening right now. But how would you defend yourself on a personal level, while still trying to support the movement on a bigger level?

[Dryalex12]

This is the mentality i follow


https://youtu.be/RyzkFxUZKPY

[theimage13]

But how would you defend yourself on a personal level, while still trying to support the movement on a bigger level?

I think I'd take a two-pronged approach.

1) Lawyer up and sue the accuser for defamation. If I really am innocent (and I'm not talking "we have different versions of the same encounter" - I'm talking "I have literally never met you in my life") - I would want to make it clear, by whatever means necessary, that in this particular instance I am actually the victim of someone who is likely seeking attention / money. I'm the last person who wants to antagonize anybody; I'm as passive as they come. But if someone tried to basically blackmail me for their 15 minutes of fame, I wouldn't stand for it. The initial brunt will definitely hurt my image, as public opinion will already largely be that the powerful white guy is trying to intimidate a woman who wants her day in court. But I'm about truth over image.

2) In the meantime, I would stop publicly campaigning for things like Time's Up in order to avoid the appearance of muddying things, but I would continue to provide heaps of financial support so that their mission can continue to help those who need it.

[mfte]

Take that Oprah!

https://www.spin.com/2018/01/seal-oprah-chrissy-teigen-harvey-weinstein/

[thevoid99]

Full Translation Of French Anti-#MeToo Manifesto Signed By Catherine Deneuve

https://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/full-translation-of-french-anti-metoo-manifesto-signed-by-catherine-deneuve

I'm actually in agreement with what she's saying. It's becoming a fucking witch hunt and it's fucking scary. All of these movements is eventually going to spark a backlash as Rose McGowan has become a nutcase and used her tirade to do reality TV.

I do feel bad for these women who have been assaulted and mistreated but targeting all of these men is going too far. No one will win this. I was happy for all of this to come out as there are a lot of men who are scumbag but it's getting out of control now. Plus, I believe that some of the women who have claimed to be harassed and such are full of shit. The ones who are lying and using this movement for their own bullshit are just as bad as the men they claimed to be harassed by. I think the inevitable conclusion will be that.... nothing has changed.

[playwithfire]

but it's getting out of control now

The accusations I've been seeing have been pretty consistently credible. Where is your personal line with who should come forward and who shouldn't? Are you aware of how often sexual harassment happens? Can you cite some examples of claims you think are bullshit?


when their only crime was to touch a woman’s knee, try to steal a kiss, talk about "intimate" things during a work meal, or send sexually-charged messages to women who did not return their interest.

Wow, what a ridiculous concept to think that this behavior is gross. Generally, I do not touch women's knees unless I already am ~clearly aware of their sexual attraction to me~ or otherwise aware that they're fine with it -- there is no other reason I would need to have to touch their knee. Why would I touch their knee? I don't talk about sexual shit at work meals because I'm fucking working, and I don't assume the comfort level of other people. And there's also this wild idea that I generally make sure that someone is attracted to me before I send sexually charged messages. Crazy, I know. I have slept with coworkers, but it's like by recognizing power dynamics and being super respectful it's gone okay. Wow. Wild.

And, if for some reason I did think asinine behavior like the above was appropriate, I'd probably have the minimum of self awareness to realize that there'd be at least a minimum of risk for goin' for it like that, and that I might get called out for it. Or rejected. And wow, I'd kinda be selfish as fuck to put the pursuit of my own desires over the comfort of others.

With the #MeToo dialogue, there's this whole thing where good people do bad shit. And people seem to have a hard time grasping that. I'd say most men have likely done some shit at some point that wasn't great in terms of respecting boundaries. Because we live in a society that doesn't teach this shit. We're learning.

And if someone is such a precious little fucking baby that they can't handle the idea that they might have made a significant mistake at some point in their life and to choose to improve upon their fucking actions, then holy shit how is it possible to exist in the world when you're that sentimental and fragile. That you can't handle the idea that folks you know or admire did that shit.

It's not a fragile thing, to hold someone accountable for their actions, or to speak up. And, kinda entirely fuck the idea that the way women achieve ~empowerment~ is by enduring some pointless bullshit.

[october_midnight]

The Aziz Ansari story was awful to read through.

[october_midnight]

Damn, that sucks. Fuck these clowns...

[telee.kom]

I don't understand how the Ansari thing is a sexual misconduct

[Sarah K]

I don't understand how the Ansari thing is a sexual misconduct

... How?

The ONLY time you can continue if a person repeatedly (or even once) says "No" and tries to get away from you, is if a CNC situation has been discussed and negotiated AT LENGTH before. This is generally something that is never, ever going to happen on a first date.

[sweeterthan]

What don’t you understand? I just read it and the account is awful to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[telee.kom]

... How?

The ONLY time you can continue if a person repeatedly (or even once) says "No" and tries to get away from you, is if a CNC situation has been discussed and negotiated AT LENGTH before. This is generally something that is never, ever going to happen on a first date.

This article has pretty detailed account of pretty much everything that happened that night starting with what wine they ordered and ending with how much fingers Ansari stuck inside her vagina -> https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

And she doesn't mention saying no once. It's a fucking tinder date gone wrong, not sexual misconduct. It's really shitty of her to bring such personal details of his to the press.

[Swykk]

What?

I had a good amount of respect for Aziz and this is horrifying.

Are you really paring it down to her not saying the word “No.” The parts about her attempting to stop him don’t strike you as obvious “NOT WANTED” signs?

Edit: apparently my keyboard stopped working unbeknownst to me making it look like I had a stroke mid sentence.

[Sarah K]

And she doesn't mention saying no once. It's a fucking tinder date gone wrong, not sexual misconduct. It's really shitty of her to bring such personal details of his to the press.


“I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’”


“He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”


“It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”


Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was.


“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”




“I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”




“I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’” He then poured her a glass and handed it to her.


He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.


“After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this.

???

[telee.kom]

It is obvious to me, it might not be obvious to him I don't know, but what she could and should have done is to say fuck off, or just leave is she didn't like where things were going. Ansari comes off as an asshat, but sexual predator? I don't think so. This wasn't even about some power dynamics between the two, it was just a bad date.

[Sarah K]

You think that Aziz doesn't have like, 837734834 levels of power over a 22-year old photographer who lives with roommates?

When you are being relentlessly followed and pushed and groped, sometimes it is easy to flip over to self-preservation mode and follow along with it rather than try to escape. She attempted to escape from him multiple times with no success.

It is absurd to say what she "should have" done under these circumstances. Until you are fearing for your safety and having your body violated, you never know how you are going to react. As you said, this account is very detailed and very recent. It is super scary.

[BRoswell]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that she would be so uncomfortable being around him, but then agree to that, and then go back to being incredibly uncomfortable. There's a break in the logic of the story that I can't ignore. Like I said, I was on board with it up until that point. If I hadn't read that bit, I would have been just as up in arms as other people have been, but I can't read that part and then read the rest and not think that she may not be being 100% truthful. I have people in my life who have been sexually assaulted and even raped, and have heard their stories several times, so this is not a case of me being completely unaware of how things can go in those situations. For what it's worth, it doesn't sound like Aziz is a total saint in this scenario, but I feel like there is more to this story than what is being told.

[telee.kom]

She tried to escape from him doing what? Going in bed with him? I think this attitude is wrong. I thought this movement was (among other things) about teaching women, they are not required to sleep with anyone they don't want to. Not about making sob stories about dates with celebrities that didn't go as planned. Because that's what this is. Ansari was horny asshole, she wasn't feeling it, she should put an end to it right there and then, not playing along.

[Sarah K]

She tried to put an end to it. Multiple times.

[BRoswell]

She tried to escape from him doing what? Going in bed with him? I think this attitude is wrong. I thought this movement was (among other things) about teaching women, they are not required to sleep with anyone they don't want to. Not about making sob stories about dates with celebrities that didn't go as planned. Because that's what this is. Ansari was horny asshole, she wasn't feeling it, she should put an end to it right there and then, not playing along.

By the way, I'd like to point out that I'm not in agreement with this sort of thinking.

[sweeterthan]

A bad date is when the conversation is awkward or someone makes racist jokes.

This is extreme. He expects to fuck her on the first date. Despite all the signs that she doesn’t want to, he keeps trying. She finally does leave but not before more attempts at persuasion. If he actually gave a shit about her, the encounter would’ve stopped when she said chill out. It’s obvious to me he doesn’t care about anything but getting laid.
How is this not obvious to everyone reading this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BRoswell]

She tried to put an end to it. Multiple times.

And between those times, she had consensual oral sex with him. That's the part that makes no sense to me. I can't see how she would allow that if she couldn't even stand him kissing her. You can call it self-preservation, but if she said okay to that, she at least has to take some responsibility for that act. That was not him forcing himself on her in that moment. He asked to go down on her, and she said yes, and then she reciprocated. She could have said no, like she did to everything else. That's why I have an issue with it. Why would she say no to everything else, but not something like that? Something that seems (to me) to be much more violating than kissing and touching. It just doesn't add up.

Either way, I don't think we're going to be able to agree about this, so I'm going to leave my end of the conversation at that. I still support women and men who are going through terribly fucked up things right now, and the fact that we even have to ask if something happened 100% to the letter should tell you how bad it is right now. I would like to believe accusers all of the time, but we don't live in a world where every single person tells the whole truth, and if I read something that doesn't make sense, I have to question it, whether it sounds terrible or not. That's just how I am.

[telee.kom]

If he actually gave a shit about her, the encounter would’ve stopped when she said chill out. It’s obvious to me he doesn’t care about anything but getting laid.

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

[Sarah K]

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

Not asking for consent, and then ignoring a person's protests is definitely a part of it.

Let me tell you about a rape that I experienced.

I was play partners with a man for roughly a year. This was at the beginning of my BDSM exploration. Most of our interactions were kink based, and had nothing to do with sex. His penis was too large for me to have much of an interest in fucking him. I did perform oral sex on him a handful of times, though. The last time I saw him was the second time that we ever had any penetrative sex (which I consented to). He took my consent for PIV to mean he had consent for everything. Him, apparently watching entirely too much pornography, thought that spit was sufficient lube for a large penis to anally penetrate me, even though I had never had anal sex at this point. I said "no", I said "stop", and I tried to get away. I was crying. He hit me in the back of the head, shoved my face down into a tote filled with books that was against my wall, and told me to "stop whining". I continued to cry and completely froze up until he was done.

I had had consensual sexual interactions with this man on multiple occasions. On this very afternoon, I had willingly and enthusiastically consented to PIV with him. I withdrew my consent once he started trying to anally penetrate me.

Consent can be revoked at any time for any reason. Prior sexual interactions, even in that moment does not mean that a person can no longer withdraw their consent.

[sweeterthan]

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

No. Metoo is about solidarity and truth in numbers. It turns out everyone you know has been harassed or assualted because problematic patriarchal bullshit has been accepted and hidden for centuries. Metoo says not anymore. We will not keep your secrets and we will not take your shit.

There’s a difference between wanting to get laid and trying to get laid at all cost. Her account says he didn’t listen. Even if she was supposedly a willing participant at some point, at other points she was not. She’s allowed to change her mind at any fucking point. Fuck anyone who doesn’t agree. Read about consent. Learn.

The oral sex happened after she already said chill. He didn’t listen. She has to spell it out for him. He didn’t care about the verbal and non verbal cues. He was not concerned about her at all.

[telee.kom]

There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of. She didn't spell out shit for him. You are spinning her story to fit your narrative. She should have said no or stop or something, not just thinking it. It is super obvious to you, as you read through her thought process during all of this, but I sure would be getting some mixed signals if a girl started to suck my dick and at no point SAID she doesn't want to do this. He was pushing her, he was being an asshole and I think that is obvious to anyone who read this story. But if you revoke your consent, you should probably say so to the other involved party in that moment, not print it in the papers months later or whatever.

[thevoid99]

The accusations I've been seeing have been pretty consistently credible. Where is your personal line with who should come forward and who shouldn't? Are you aware of how often sexual harassment happens? Can you cite some examples of claims you think are bullshit?



Wow, what a ridiculous concept to think that this behavior is gross. Generally, I do not touch women's knees unless I already am ~clearly aware of their sexual attraction to me~ or otherwise aware that they're fine with it -- there is no other reason I would need to have to touch their knee. Why would I touch their knee? I don't talk about sexual shit at work meals because I'm fucking working, and I don't assume the comfort level of other people. And there's also this wild idea that I generally make sure that someone is attracted to me before I send sexually charged messages. Crazy, I know. I have slept with coworkers, but it's like by recognizing power dynamics and being super respectful it's gone okay. Wow. Wild.

And, if for some reason I did think asinine behavior like the above was appropriate, I'd probably have the minimum of self awareness to realize that there'd be at least a minimum of risk for goin' for it like that, and that I might get called out for it. Or rejected. And wow, I'd kinda be selfish as fuck to put the pursuit of my own desires over the comfort of others.

With the #MeToo dialogue, there's this whole thing where good people do bad shit. And people seem to have a hard time grasping that. I'd say most men have likely done some shit at some point that wasn't great in terms of respecting boundaries. Because we live in a society that doesn't teach this shit. We're learning.

And if someone is such a precious little fucking baby that they can't handle the idea that they might have made a significant mistake at some point in their life and to choose to improve upon their fucking actions, then holy shit how is it possible to exist in the world when you're that sentimental and fragile. That you can't handle the idea that folks you know or admire did that shit.

It's not a fragile thing, to hold someone accountable for their actions, or to speak up. And, kinda entirely fuck the idea that the way women achieve ~empowerment~ is by enduring some pointless bullshit.

I'm aware of what is happening but do you honestly think all of this movement is going to change anything? I believe about most of these accusations but we need to understand both sides of the story. It seems like a simple apology is no longer enough. Let's not forget that some of these women would also do things to each other just to get a role or something and we need to think of them as saints or crusaders? Fuck that. I know I'm going to get facepalms for this and quite frankly. I don't give a fuck.

[Sarah K]

There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of.

Refusing to accept verbal and non-verbal indications that someone is not giving you consent is both.

[r_z]

Her account

By the way, people... this is what it is. Her account. And that's what's problematic with this campaign. Azari's being morally crucified, details about his private/sex life laid out to the public... on the account of a single person.

[sweeterthan]

There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of. She didn't spell out shit for him. You are spinning her story to fit your narrative. She should have said no or stop or something, not just thinking it. It is super obvious to you, as you read through her thought process during all of this, but I sure would be getting some mixed signals if a girl started to suck my dick and at no point SAID she doesn't want to do this. He was pushing her, he was being an asshole and I think that is obvious to anyone who read this story. But if you revoke your consent, you should probably say so to the other involved party in that moment, not print it in the papers months later or whatever.

Which part of her story am I spinning to fit ‘my narrative’? The part where she doesn’t want to fuck him from the beginning or the part where she doesn’t want to fuck at the end? The whole story is spun to say “I didn’t want to fuck”. So I think it’s pretty clear that my interpretation is her narrative. You are excusing his behavior as a “bad date” which is disgusting.

[Sarah K]

The fact that people can view this as a bad date is a horrifyingly accurate example of our collective failure to teach about consent when folks are young. Then they transform into adults who think this behavior is acceptable, and the cycle never breaks.

Like, I don't even understand how or why anyone continues when it is clear that the other person is not into it. If someone is not enthusiastic about sex, then where is the fun?

Coerced consent is not consent.

[playwithfire]

It's kinda amazing that Aziz, the person who actually was described as doing these things, has shown more ownership and maturity about this than the "um but he was just an asshole" idiocy exhibited here.


And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

If their seduction technique involves wearing down a barely enthusiastic partner until they give up, they don't deserve to get laid. Genuine question: Do you really not feel empathy for how shitty that experience must have been for her?

[playwithfire]

I'm aware of what is happening but do you honestly think all of this movement is going to change anything? I believe about most of these accusations but we need to understand both sides of the story. It seems like a simple apology is no longer enough. Let's not forget that some of these women would also do things to each other just to get a role or something and we need to think of them as saints or crusaders? Fuck that. I know I'm going to get facepalms for this and quite frankly. I don't give a fuck.

- The movement has already changed things. You can see it in the amount of people feeling empowered to finally speak up, men (and others) becoming increasingly careful of their actions, etc. It may not *erase the problem* -- but isn't a bit of change still worth while?

- The men/people who were accused are more than welcome to publicly account for their actions. Instead we're mostly seeing a swath of non-apologies. Remember Conor Oberst? If you're defensible, defend yourself.

- An apology is a part of it, not repeating it in future behavior and truly understanding what they did wrong is another part. Dan Harmon got it right.

- Yes, women can be predators too. Women have been accused. What is the problem here? Do you want us to talk about women more even though men do this at a much higher rate and it wouldn't be accurate? Can we not keep talking about the men? I don't understand what purpose "but women do it too" serves in relevance to this.

[mfte]

Women's march organizer accused of covering up sexual abuse claims

https://nypost.com/2017/12/18/womens-march-organizer-accused-of-covering-up-sex-abuse/

https://forward.com/opinion/390515/is-the-liberal-media-giving-linda-sarsour-a-pass-on-a-sexual-assault-cover/

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahallam/womens-march-organizer-linda-sarsour-denies-report-she?utm_term=.odPG2oJ4D#.wqxJ6n0oz

[telee.kom]

Do you really not feel empathy for how shitty that experience must have been for her?

I do. I also believe what she should have done is to leave, not going in bed with him, not proceed to have sex with him. And she didn't. Or do you think that what she has done was the right course of action? I know that the mindset here is everything women do is sacred, everything men do is evil and more power to you if this is how you feel, but wouldn't it be better for everyone, if the takeaway from this would be "girls, don't be afraid to say no" instead of "girls, go on dates with celebrities and make a story about the experience later"? I think "metoo" is rather important thing, but stories like this being a part of it is what make it less credible. It started with accounts of genuine sexual abuse and now we are at point of bedroom stories with celebrities.

[theimage13]

I also believe what she should have done is to leave, not going in bed with him, not proceed to have sex with him. And she didn't. Or do you think that what she has done was the right course of action?

Two words. Learn them. VICTIM BLAMING.

"What she should have done..." NO. FULL STOP. What HE should have done is not continued to pressure her into doing things that made her uncomfortable. She DID try to say no, too.


Ansari wanted to have sex. She said she remembers him asking again and again, “Where do you want me to fuck you?” while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn’t want to fuck him at all.“I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’” He then poured her a glass and handed it to her.

So first of all, she DID say no. She made it very clear that she was not interested, and she tried to say it in a way that wouldn't cause issues. Because A: she's dealing with a powerful man, and B: she's dealing with A man, period. Guys snap and get violent for the dumbest shit ever, and it would be pitifully and dangerously naive to pretend otherwise. So she did the smartest thing she could, which was recognize the situation and try to get out of it as safely as possible. And by this point, Ansari should have stopped. Period. If this account is indeed accurate - and I have no reason to doubt that it is - then the only thing that "should" have happened is that HE should have stopped. Not given her more alcohol. Not continued to push himself on her. He should have listened to the words "next time" and fucking stopped. To insinuate otherwise is to blame the victim, and I'm getting really fucking sick of it.

[telee.kom]

she's dealing with A man, period. Guys snap and get violent for the dumbest shit ever, and it would be pitifully and dangerously naive to pretend otherwise.

I don't know with what kind of guys you are hanging out with (or if any), but I assure you that most of us are not some kind of violent monsters who couldn't stand being turned down without raping or beating anyone. I don't know why are you living with this mindset, but that's really the pity here imho. I'm really done with this discussion, if you think I was victim blaming, you are completely missed my point. If your advice to women is to rather have sex with someone they don't want to, instead of leaving, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

[Bachy]

I absolutely don’t agree with what Aziz did. It was disgusting to read, period. However, I do still feel we’re starting to broach into a gray area. It’s starting to feel like every single act of inappropriate sexual behavior is being lumped in with Weinstein which just isn’t right. This is probably a controversial stance to take on this act, but mistakes do happen. Reading Aziz’s response and text back to the victim (she absolutely was a victim) at the very least sounded genuine and remorseful. Now I don’t know what amount of drugs and/or alcohol were involved on their “date,” but had there been a good amount, I’m confident saying that his judgment could have absolutely been clouded, maybe not enough to understand a girl pushing you away exclaiming “cool it.” I absolutely agree this culture with which we agree is acceptable treatment to women absolutely needs to change and has had to change for sometime. No, absolutely means no.

However, I feel it is important to note, as Bill Burr has addressed plenty: There are some truly awful men out there, but not all women are innocent:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7gv2l-6uKg

[theimage13]

I don't know with what kind of guys you are hanging out with (or if any), but I assure you that most of us are not some kind of violent monsters who couldn't stand being turned down without raping or beating anyone. I don't know why are you living with this mindset, but that's really the pity here imho. I'm really done with this discussion, if you think I was victim blaming, you are completely missed my point. If your advice to women is to rather have sex with someone they don't want to, instead of leaving, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

Right, most of us aren't. But most women HAVE been threatened by men, so they have every reason to be cautious.

You told us that she should have said no and that what happened is her fault. Except...she tried saying no, he wouldn't accept that answer. You literally just blamed the victim. I don't understand how you don't get that, and this is exactly WHY we have the problem of men thinking they can do whatever they want.

"She didn't scream and kick me in the balls and try to stab me before sprinting for the door, so clearly she was consenting". That's basically what you're saying. You're blaming HER for what HE did.

[telee.kom]

Yes, I'm saying she should have said no or leave if she didn't want to have sex with the guy. How the fuck is that controversial statement by any means?

[r_z]

#metoo has been a digital pillory from the beginning, exposing the (sexual) misuse of power.

Examples like this one make it seem like #metoo is now misusing its own power.

What good is it to drag a story like this into the public domain? Are revelations like this serving the debate or do they just happen for the sake of some kind of outrage?

Why do you treat her account like "truth in numbers", while there's practically no evidence supporting her claims?

You're talking about victim blaming. Isn't there a chance of Ansari being the victim here? Or at least the chance that whatever happened has been a misunderstanding of sorts and went down differently than what's in her account? Calling someone a victim is to anticpate the outcome. Because if there's a victim, there must be an offender.

Why are you so quick to judge and take sides here without at least having Ansari tell you his side of the story?

Also, what about the presumption of innocence, ffs? The article cited is a highly problematic form of journalism. The matters of #metoo have to be debated publicly, no doubt. But it should follow common ethical principles or else it's losing its credibility. Because there's a difference between established guilt and suspicion. And you don't want #metoo to turn into #wedo.

Seriously, with the way you're leading this discussion you're working towards hardening all fronts instead of leading a sincere debate.

[theimage13]

Yes, I'm saying she should have said no or leave if she didn't want to have sex with the guy. How the fuck is that controversial statement by any means?

https://www.gotbants.com/lilyevansmfc-twitter-creepy-men-experience/

Please, please read this link, because you're still not getting it: men (no, not most men, but that's not the point) do terrible shit on a regular basis. That puts anyone being relentlessly pursued by them in a position of concern, because they know the stats and they know what could happen. It becomes a moment where they have to make a very disturbing choice: "what's safer - do something I don't really want to do, or roll the dice and risk being harmed or killed".

The problem here, and in general, is that you and many others don't seem to understand WHY women would be in that mindset. Again, please read the above the link, and read it with the mindset that it is not an isolated incident.

[mfte]

At 5"5 and probably 90 lbs does Azis really pose a physical threat to anyone? Don't answer that.

Margaret Atwood now faces backlash for questioning the MeToo movement.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/atwood-oped-galloway-letter-1.4486936

[ltrandazzo]

In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.

The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.

I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue. -Aziz Ansari

This statement sucks. Progress is when an assaulter realizes that they misread body language and non-verbal cues and admits it without the old "well it seemed fine at the moment..." excuse. It may seem fine at the first moment when you're getting a BJ, but consent can be withdrawn at any time. The one thing I kept thinking and at times shouting out loud while reading the account of the incident from Grace was "READ THE FUCKING ROOM." If you're not getting overwhelming enthusiasm from your partner/the person you're trying to have sex with, then ask - plain and simple.

Also, the throat thing made me want to throw up.

[Bachy]

Yes, I'm saying she should have said no or leave if she didn't want to have sex with the guy. How the fuck is that controversial statement by any means?

It’s easy to say that in hindsight. But let’s say she drove to his place and had been drinking, or maybe he drove them. It sounds like the latter with the story since she had to take an Uber. She’s kind of, in a way, stuck in his place. I mean, yeah, she could just wait on the street in the middle of the night for a cab or Uber/Lyft, but that doesn’t sound exactly safe either. It’s similar to the whole “implication” that gets tossed around in It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia.

[playwithfire]

Are women just also not allowed to politely express disinterest? Is moving someone's hand away from your genitals, saying you want to stop, saying you don't want to have sex, not sufficient? If I don't want to have sex with someone do I have to leave? Or can I just express disinterest and have them respect it and then maybe we can watch some tv without them asking me (AGAIN) to suck their dick? Would any of you have kept going if a partner had done what she did?

[ltrandazzo]

Are women just also not allowed to politely express disinterest? Is moving someone's hand away from your genitals, saying you want to stop, saying you don't want to have sex, not sufficient? If I don't want to have sex with someone do I have to leave? Or can I just express disinterest and have them respect it and then maybe we can watch some tv without them asking me (AGAIN) to suck their dick? Would any of you have kept going if a partner had done what she did?

This is the part of the summary that bothered me the most. She shut him down twice and he still kept pushing it after each time. Chill and maybe a massage? NOPE. Chill and watch Seinfeld? NOPE.

[telee.kom]

Are women just also not allowed to politely express disinterest? Is moving someone's hand away from your genitals, saying you want to stop, saying you don't want to have sex, not sufficient? If I don't want to have sex with someone do I have to leave? Or can I just express disinterest and have them respect it and then maybe we can watch some tv without them asking me (AGAIN) to suck their dick? Would any of you have kept going if a partner had done what she did?

Of course. And I said from the start that Ansari was an asshole for not picking this up. But please don't tell me there isn't some middle ground between expressing disinterest politely and letting yourself to be raped (as per theimage13 advice).

[r_z]

men (no, not most men, but that's not the point) do terrible shit on a regular basis. That puts anyone being relentlessly pursued by them in a position of concern, because they know the stats and they know what could happen.
What's disturbing to me is the picture you guys draw of women and men here and in this whole debate.

Because you treat grown up, self-confident and healthy people like sickly children, that have to be "protected" all around and in every situation (by whom ever) and who - for some mysterious historical/genetical reason - as a matter of principle obtain a status of victimhood.

And at the same time - while you're postulating this bizarre sensibility for their "mindset" - you're producing a multitude of malicious stereotypes, sexist assertions and aggressive sweeping statements about men.

That's irrational alarmism and its dimensions (that are on display here) are alarming to me.

[ltrandazzo]

A lot of big words and abstract language

Drawing a picture of consent and good communication bothers you? It's as simple as that. Aziz let himself fall into the same trap others have - thinking that he could just order someone around and use them as a sex toy because of his stature and reputation as a "woke bae." The sickly children tag you're throwing out there is super extra, by the way.

[r_z]

Aziz let himself fall into the same trap others have - thinking that he could just order someone around and use them as a sex toy because of his stature and reputation as a "woke bae."
What's bothering me is you people getting all up in arms about an incident you have ZERO insight in. And you're seemingly doing this on a basis of strong (irrational) prejudices. Because not for a second did you even consider the possibility of his account being true. You're all acting very hot-headed and hysterical. And the fact, that you can't see why this won't help your arguments or those of #metoo is baffling to me.

[ltrandazzo]

What's bothering me is you people getting all up in arms about an incident you have ZERO insight in. And you're seemingly doing this on a basis of strong (irrational) prejudices. Because not for a second did you even consider the possibility of his account being true. You're all acting very hot-headed and hysterical. And the fact, that you can't see why this won't help your arguments or those of #metoo is baffling to me.

Believe the accusers first. I don't get why that's so hard.

[r_z]

Believe the accusers first. I don't get why that's so hard.
Did you come up with that or where is it from? Because it sure as hell has nothing to do with the way our legal authorities/rules of law operate. edit: and there are reasons why they don't.

[ltrandazzo]

Did you come up with that or where is it from? Because it sure as hell has nothing to do with the way our legal authorities/rules of law operate. edit: and there are reasons why they don't.

I'll, uh, make sure to consult with the ETS court that we update our rules of law so we make sure that accusers aren't believed first then.

[r_z]

I'll, uh, make sure to consult with the ETS court that we update our rules of law so we make sure that accusers aren't believed first then.
Acknowledging thousands of years of legal history would at least update your rules from archaic to democratic, for sure.

[Sarah K]

"COPS OR GTFO" is the weakest shit ever. Our legal system is a shitshow, and is historically and notoriously difficult for the victims of sex crimes. A small, small fraction of rapists ever see a day in prison. Going through all of the emotional turmoil that a legal case entails generally does more harm than good for most victims. Holding up a *legal* standard for a *social* problem that is being addressed is nonsense.

[r_z]

"COPS OR GTFO" is the weakest shit ever. Our legal system is a shitshow, and is historically and notoriously difficult for the victims of sex crimes. A small, small fraction of rapists ever see a day in prison. Going through all of the emotional turmoil that a legal case entails generally does more harm than good for most victims. Holding up a *legal* standard for a *social* problem that is being addressed is nonsense.
This is a dangerous sentiment. Said standard is there for a reason and it's tried and tested.

And you know what? Our legal system is historically and notoriously difficult for victims of other crimes as well. For when it's hard to support a claim with evidence that is. Which unfortunately is the case with many sex crimes, too. I pointed out earlier on this board how I think this is a dilemma and unfortunate for people that really are victims of sex crimes. I got your cute little facepalms for that one, as well.

But what is the alternative? To put away people simply on the basis of accusations that don't need to be followed up by evidence? To take matters in your own hands and publicly shame everybody that's being accused of something? And where would that lead us? You can't be serious.

[Sarah K]

Again you are confusing legal standards with social standards. Two completely different things.

[r_z]

No, I'm not confusing them. I'm applying a judical standard that's insanely important in judging people to the public domain. What's a law worth when there's no one embodying it? You, on the other hand, are confusing vigilantism and public shaming with justice.