Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[Sarah K]

Judicial standards cannot be applied to social problems.

There are many social punishments for poor behavior that exist outside of the legal system.

[sweeterthan]

If men don’t want to be shamed publicly by stories of their horrid actions, the easy answer is to not be asshole. Problem solved.


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[r_z]

You know it's not that easy, so please stop it with your populist one liners.

[r_z]

Judicial standards cannot be applied to social problems.
Why not?


There are many social punishments for poor behavior that exist outside of the legal system.
Such as...?

[playwithfire]

letting yourself to be raped

I think a point you're missing is that the above is literally impossible. You cannot "let yourself be raped" -- the action of rape is purely in the hands of the rapist. Just like I cannot "let myself be beaten." While yes, she could have behaved differently, it literally doesn't matter given that he still ignored her disinterest and no's.

[playwithfire]

Why not?


Such as...?

Requiring all sexual experiences to be prosecutable to like, have empathy for someone, is an enormously cruel way to behave.

Y'all should read this. https://medium.com/@dr_eprice/a-few-words-about-sexual-coercion-in-the-wake-of-the-aziz-ansari-accusations-7db015c1cde5

[Swykk]

Why not?


Such as...?

You’re kidding, right?

Okay, I’ll give an example.

Louis CK lost an estimated 50 million after his issues were revealed. No FX deal, no Netflix deal anymore. No charges were filed. These were social consequences.

[playwithfire]

Or like, hey, women have heard that this guy jerks off in front of people who he works with. Maybe they'll avoid being alone with him now. There are people who sure fucking wouldn't go on a date with Aziz now.

When I hear someone is a creep, even if I can't do anything else with that information (because sometimes for different reasons I'm asked not to, my default behavior is to confront/openly talk shit), the minimum I do is warn any friend of that person's preferred gender away from being alone with that person.

[telee.kom]

I think a point you're missing is that the above is literally impossible. You cannot "let yourself be raped" -- the action of rape is purely in the hands of the rapist. Just like I cannot "let myself be beaten." While yes, she could have behaved differently, it literally doesn't matter given that he still ignored her disinterest and no's.

Sarcasm.

Also to add something to the discussion, I think this quote is interesting and it is related to discourse of this thread:

"The #MeToo moment is a symptom of a broken legal system. All too frequently, women and other sexual-abuse complainants couldn't get a fair hearing through institutions – including corporate structures – so they used a new tool: the internet. Stars fell from the skies. This has been very effective, and has been seen as a massive wake-up call. But what next? The legal system can be fixed, or our society could dispose of it . . . If the legal system is bypassed because it is seen as ineffectual, what will take its place? Who will be the new power brokers? . . . In times of extremes, extremists win. Their ideology becomes a religion; anyone who doesn't puppet their views is seen as an apostate, a heretic or a traitor, and moderates in the middle are annihilated. The aim of ideology is to eliminate ambiguity."

[Sarah K]

Such as...?

Loss of money, positions of power, partners, future partners, opportunities, etc. The list goes on and on, really. People who exist in the same communities talk.

There has recently been a reckoning happening in the local kink scene. I started an invite-only group for bottoms in the NYC scene to talk about their experiences - both good and bad, as the main social network for this subculture does not allow naming abusers. Many groups like this are starting up right now, and in fact, a few very prominent teachers, presenters, promoters, etc have been taken down lately after MULTIPLE stories of their abuses have been shared in these groups, and then shared with the scene at large.

[r_z]

Requiring all sexual experiences to be prosecutable to like, have empathy for someone, is an enormously cruel way to behave.
I never said or demanded that shit.

You guys just don't fucking get it. It's not just black and white out there, no matter how much you like to believe it. I'm sure, Louis CK wouldn't have lost his deals and jobs and money, were it not for those accusations against him to be true and validated by his partners (through evidence or him admitting) at some point in the process. Everything else would be bullshit and unjust.

It's incredibly childish and irresponsible to just jump on a bandwagon whenever a story like this one gets published and NOT for a second think about the circumstances and without any hesitation mark the guy as guilty. If you like it or not: There ARE cases where people had to fight off claims and accusations that were completely made up. The possibility exists. And you're denying it.

I'm all for actual sexual offenders getting their "punishment". I'm not ok with sending people to the public pillory where NOTHING is provable. Not every asshole has to be ruined for the rest of his life. And it's certainly not on you to decide who's guilty or not, especially since the lot of you is seemingly unable to handle accounts, statements, witnesses or evidence presented to you carefully and unbiased.

[r_z]

There has recently been a reckoning happening in the local kink scene. I started an invite-only group for bottoms in the NYC scene to talk about their experiences - both good and bad, as the main social network for this subculture does not allow naming abusers. Many groups like this are starting up right now, and in fact, a few very prominent teachers, presenters, promoters, etc have been taken down lately after MULTIPLE stories of their abuses have been shared in these groups, and then shared with the scene at large.
This sounds like a good thing and I respect what you 're doing there. But let me ask you: Those teachers, presenters, etc... would they've been taken down if what they did would have not been provable, and be it by the sheer amount of accounts and witnesses?

[HWB]

without any hesitation mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrVFb9jcPE


Anyway, you certainly put out a lot of good points, I wish we could all approach these situations with caution whenever an accusation pops up and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Whenever an accusation pops up, the likes of it being true are the same of them being not, you just can't know

[Sarah K]

the likes of it being true are the same of them being not, you just can't know

What are you basing this off of?

[playwithfire]

I never said or demanded that shit.

Didn't say you did. But, your push for this shit to fit into the our legal systems current framework is problematic. Are you not doing that? Am I misunderstanding?


You guys just don't fucking get it. It's not just black and white out there, no matter how much you like to believe it.

I think what many of us are doing is actually advocating FOR grey-area shit to be taken more seriously. Shitty sexual experiences shouldn't need to be violent or blatantly predatory just to be taken seriously.


It's incredibly childish and irresponsible to just jump on a bandwagon whenever a story like this one gets published and NOT for a second think about the circumstances and without any hesitation mark the guy as guilty. If you like it or not: There ARE cases where people had to fight off claims and accusations that were completely made up. The possibility exists. And you're denying it.

And yet, what we are discussing is not *if* Aziz did it, but whether the actions recounted are sexual misconduct/assault. And the actions recounted are sexual misconduct and assault. Aziz may not have done those things, but if he did, that's what they are. Also, if he didn't do it, he should dispute it.

I happen to think behavior like what was outlined is pretty common from men (and wrong, and assault), just, generally they're closer to 18 than thirty-fucking-four.

[sweeterthan]

You know it's not that easy, so please stop it with your populist one liners.

Yeah, it’s way easier to blame the victim according to some in this thread.

I’m sick of reading about this topic. I would’ve ignored the Ansari story as long as possible but telee.kom saying he didn’t understand made me go read it. I know why you don’t get it but I’m still hoping that someday you do.

I think not being an asshole is more humanist than populist. Really it’s just common sense. And no, I won’t stop. Not in this thread or any other where people blame the victim or question their actions.

[r_z]

Ugh, for what it's worth, I think we're going in circles here. I spoke my piece, some of you wouldn't see my points (or even try to), some did. Let's just leave it at that. Carry on.

[Airbornefeline]

Not to start up any arguments but the NYtimes put out a pretty good article about this situation. NYtimes were the ones to break the Louis CK story btw.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html


Tl;DR Aziz is an asshole but he didn't sexually assault anyone

[Sarah K]

I don't think someone repeatedly using verbal and nonverbal indications that they aren't interested requires any mind-reading capabilities.

Just because this behavior is "normal" does not mean it is right. It just demonstrates how shitty we have been at teaching consent to previous generations. I really don't understand what more she could have done in this situation.

It can't be classified as "bad sex", because sex requires consent. I think that the reason this one is so difficult for folks is because a lot of people recognize this behavior within themselves at some point in their lives, and it is hard to come to grips with that behavior being wrong.

It really isn't difficult to sit down with someone and have a straight forward discussion about what the other person/people do and do not want to do, and what they do and do not consent to doing. I feel like if people aren't comfortable doing that, then they really don't have any business fucking anyone. I am glad that the next generation is being taught affirmative consent - I honestly think that alone will make a world of difference, and will significantly cut back on situations like this that may not necessarily qualify as assault, but are WAY beyond harassment.

[playwithfire]

i don't think someone repeatedly using verbal and nonverbal indications that they aren't interested requires any mind-reading capabilities.

Just because this behavior is "normal" does not mean it is right. It just demonstrates how shitty we have been at teaching consent to previous generations. I really don't understand what more she could have done in this situation.

It can't be classified as "bad sex", because sex requires consent. I think that the reason this one is so difficult for folks is because a lot of people recognize this behavior within themselves at some point in their lives, and it is hard to come to grips with that behavior being wrong.

It really isn't difficult to sit down with someone and have a straight forward discussion about what the other person/people do and do not want to do, and what they do and do not consent to doing. I feel like if people aren't comfortable doing that, then they really don't have any business fucking anyone. I am glad that the next generation is being taught affirmative consent - i honestly think that alone will make a world of difference, and will significantly cut back on situations like this that may not necessarily qualify as assault, but are way beyond harassment.

ding ding ding

[Airbornefeline]

She consented to blowing him. She was not forced to do so. She chose to. She didn't want to have PiV sex, so she declined and left. No sexual activity took place without consent beforehand. Saying over and over again that this wasn't consensual despite there being nothing to support that claim doesn't change the facts.

I think the reason this is so difficult for folks is because no sexual assault took place and this "victim" is abusing the current social climate. I guess the woman who wrote that NYtimes article just recognized too much of her own "predatory behavior" in Aziz and that's why she's calling this bullshit out, can't be that this just wasn't sexual assault /s

It really isn't difficult to not consent to sexual behavior if you secretly aren't down for it. If she didn't want to make out with him, she shouldn't have. If she didn't want to engage in oral sex, she shouldn't have. She didn't want to have PiV sex so she made that known and they didn't. Even if her story is a 100% accurate depiction of the events as they transpired no sexual activity occurred without consent. As Bari said in that NYtimes article, BS like this is just damaging to the #metoo movement in general.

[Sarah K]

I mean, she said no several times and he still continued on. If you continue on after someone does not give consent, you're shitty. It might not be full-out sexual assault, but like I said, it is WAY beyond sexual harassment. In the kink world there is something called a "consent violation", which I hope eventually gets adopted on a wider scale.

[Airbornefeline]

Actually the one time she said no is exactly when the sexual encounter was ended and he called a car for her. She consented to every sexual act that went down.

[Sarah K]

Repeatedly moving away from someone is saying no.

Moving your hand away when they try to force you to touch their genitals is saying no.

Saying "not this time" is saying no.

Saying "Let's cool it" is saying no.

Coerced consent is not consent.

[Airbornefeline]

When did she try to get away from him? I saw no mention of any attempts to leave in that article.

Moving your hand away from someone's genitals is definitely not automatically a "no", especially when you proceed to willingly put said persons' genitals in your mouth just a few minutes after.

Saying "not this time" and then proceeding to put said persons' genitals into your mouth after they joke that having a glass of wine would be their 2nd date is definitely not a "no"

Saying "let's cool it", and again, getting naked and putting said persons' genitals into your mouth is definitely not a "no"

A "no" is a "no". A "I don't want to do this, I'm leaving" is a no. Sticking around, continuing foreplay and exchanging oral sex is not a "no"

As soon as "no" was said, the encounter was over. This was not sexual assault.

[Sarah K]

You are incorrect.

And also:


Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”


But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”


. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”



Just because something might not meet the legal definition of sexual assault doesn't mean it isn't incredibly fucked up.

The fact that you don't understand all of those to be examples of "no" is sad to me but unfortunately, all too common among young folks.

[playwithfire]

When did she try to get away from him? I saw no mention of any attempts to leave in that article.

Moving your hand away from someone's genitals is definitely not automatically a "no", especially when you proceed to willingly put said persons' genitals in your mouth just a few minutes after.

Saying "not this time" and then proceeding to put said persons' genitals into your mouth after they joke that having a glass of wine would be their 2nd date is definitely not a "no"

Saying "let's cool it", and again, getting naked and putting said persons' genitals into your mouth is definitely not a "no"

A "no" is a "no". A "I don't want to do this, I'm leaving" is a no. Sticking around, continuing foreplay and exchanging oral sex is not a "no"

As soon as "no" was said, the encounter was over. This was not sexual assault.

Would- would you not have interpreted her behavior as a lack of interest/lack of consent if you were in his shoes?

[Airbornefeline]

The fact that you don't know what "no" means makes me question your understanding of the english language.

What am I incorrect on lol? You just agreed that this does not fall under sexual assault. Seems like we're actually mostly on the same page then, minus your misunderstanding of basic words.

[playwithfire]

Also, I know Sarah quoted the article above, but I'm going to add to it and bold some parts because I do not understand how you can read this shit and think it is even close to okay.

Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.

She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. “He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’”
This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel “forced” had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down.
Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”
Soon, he pulled her back up onto the couch. She would tell her friend via text later that night, “He [made out] with me again and says, ‘Doesn’t look like you hate me.’”
Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, “Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?” He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse.
“I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”
They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”
While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”
“I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with “gross, forceful kisses.”
After that last kiss, Grace stood up from the couch, moved back to the kitchen island where she left her phone, and said she would call herself a car. He hugged her and kissed her goodbye, another “aggressive” kiss. When she pulled away, Ansari finally relented and insisted he’d call her the car. “He said, ‘It’s coming, but just tell them your name is Essence,’” she said, a name he has joked about using as a pseudonym in his sitcom.

[Prettybrokenspiral]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html



Fantastic article. Really hits some nails on the head.

Even better are the comments, by rational people of all ages, genders and preferences. I suggest some of the people in this thread read through them, gain some perspective, and hopefully realize how utterly ridiculous they sound in here..

[elevenism]

i have to say this.
it's fucking GREAT that all of this is happening. It's fucking AWESOME and it seriously needed to happen.
But there is something about it that worries me. "believe all accusers" is kind of fucking dangerous, isn't it?
i mean, "believe all accusers" is dangerous regarding ANY subject, in ANY situation.
Also, i think there's a fine but important line between being a kind of sexually aggressive idiot and actually VIOLATING someone.

It's tricky, though, because how in the fuck do you go about vetting these things? It's utterly impossible i guess.
I just hope to god we're getting it right. If people aren't REALLY careful about this subject, this whole fucking thing is going to backfire, and i'd really hate to see that happen.

[sweeterthan]

Fantastic article. Really hits some nails on the head.

Even better are the comments, by rational people of all ages, genders and preferences. I suggest some of the people in this thread read through them, gain some perspective, and hopefully realize how utterly ridiculous they sound in here..

I’ve read it a few times since I saw it being shared on twitter. Which part of the piece do you find “fantastic?” I think it’s gross and purposely misleading. She glosses over his repeated coercion and put it all on the her. This is more victim blaming. She should’ve done this or that and all the mistakes she made.

Why is there no focus on his shitty behavior? Where’s the oped that explains how coercion isn’t consent?

[october_midnight]

Next up on the chopping block: Seal. (https://pitchfork.com/news/seal-under-investigation-for-forcible-kissing-and-groping-report/?mbid=social_twitter)

[sweeterthan]

I found an oped about consent. It was written with franken in mind but it’s relevant here.


So, while men like Matt Lauer or C.K. didn’t rape anyone, we need to redefine how we think about sexual assault, because nothing sexual is okay without explicit consent from each party. But some people resist thinking about things like this, because it might mean that men they’d admired, men who hadn’t gone so far as to commit criminal acts, are actually not innocent either.


Thinking you’ll get laid if you push hard enough is rape culture.

https://nylon.com/articles/rape-sexual-harassment-al-franken-in-between


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[playwithfire]

Fantastic article. Really hits some nails on the head.

Even better are the comments, by rational people of all ages, genders and preferences. I suggest some of the people in this thread read through them, gain some perspective, and hopefully realize how utterly ridiculous they sound in here..

The article literally incorrectly describes the events that happened with Aziz. It's dangerous, shitty writing.

[mfte]

This thing is entirely divisive if nothing else.

Ashleigh Banfield goes off on Aziz's accuser for compromising the metoo movement.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tanyachen/ashleigh-banfield-open-letter-to-aziz-ansaris-accuser?utm_term=.feW5m92vv#.kez1WXYNN

[Volband]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4bAULTwAJU&feature=youtu.be

Holy shit. I'm glad basically everyone agrees on this - you know shit is messed up when both the left and the right media are on the same page. Imagine being actively involved in #metoo, hell, even having personal nightmares which lead you to bringing down the filth, and then this idiot marches in under your banner and cries for attention.

This is a movement for women who got used, abused then threatened to stay silent or else their life will be ruined. Then there's this chick who is like "Soooo I willingly sucked his dick, but ya know..."

If you've ever been to sexual hookups you know how they go. It can be anything between an amazing date ending on the next day, or some lame "are we gonna shag or what?" If someone invites you over to his apartment the first night you've met, then you either accept being treated as a fuck puppet (at least for the night; it might lead into something serious later), or you decline because you want none of that.

[ltrandazzo]

I want to make a distinction here because what I originally said yesterday was "Believe the accusersFIRST."

The reason I say this is because there is, of course, the possibility (no matter how small it is) that an accuser could be lying. However, there have been too many instances and real-life examples of the accused being reported to the proper authorities and those authorities did... nothing. r_z wanted to bring up our systems of laws and what-have-you, but those systems have failed accusers and protected powerful men time and time again, so, in the court of public opinion, we should believe the accusers first.

Why? Because what do the accusers have to gain?

Here's the other thing regarding Aziz Ansari that I want to discuss - I'm not firmly in the camp of "FUCK AZIZ ANSARI" yet. The events that Grace shared are bad and Aziz, whether he realizes it or not, engaged in sexual misconduct that went into abuse as the night went on. However, I don't necessarily file him into the same category as Weinstein & Spacey, or the category of Louis C.K., or even in the category of Al Franken - and yes, there are differences between those three. There is something that all men need to learn from this incident with Aziz and that is to understand how to read non-verbal cues and understand when what you're doing isn't sexy and that the person you're doing it with isn't sharing the same sentiment. If you're unsure, ASK. Life and sexual encounters don't always play out the way we see them in movies (both theatrical and pornographic) and even if it might not seem sexy to do so, ASK.

Trust me. When you ask, it's even better than you can imagine.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

I just can't believe with all these dudes being outed, that not one person has come forward with a story about Dave Navarro...Out of the 500,000 girls that guy has fucked, you would think one would have some story...I guess most of them just bow down to him as soon as he hits them up (friends with a few girls who have done that) so maybe davey boy doesnt have to ask for any weird shit since they are so willing to give it up....Although I know he gets in a huff if he gets rejected because I am friends with a girl who told me how he used to hit her up on fb all the time asking to hook up and when she rejected him via fb, he had some tirade calling her names and then blocked her...I saw the messages...Hilarious stuff....

Also why is nobody talking about Corey Feldmans former "angels" claiming how he has sexually harassed them....The Feldman stuff is priceless...Reading all the accounts on fb about how this guy has drug fueled orgies and forces these women to "watch" or to "participate" with other men so he can watch and hes forcefeedng them pills and berates them if they dont do all his errands....The dude is totally whacked

[playwithfire]

[video=youtube;y4bAULTwAJU]
If you've ever been to sexual hookups you know how they go. It can be anything between an amazing date ending on the next day, or some lame "are we gonna shag or what?" If someone invites you over to his apartment the first night you've met, then you either accept being treated as a fuck puppet (at least for the night; it might lead into something serious later), or you decline because you want none of that.

I'm sorry, what? Are women not entitled to expect to be treated with respect just because they engage in casual sex?

[elevenism]

Also why is nobody talking about Corey Feldmans former "angels" claiming how he has sexually harassed them....The Feldman stuff is priceless...Reading all the accounts on fb about how this guy has drug fueled orgies and forces these women to "watch" or to "participate" with other men so he can watch and hes forcefeedng them pills and berates them if they dont do all his errands....The dude is totally whacked
Wait WHAT? Seriously? HAhahahaha

[Volband]

I'm sorry, what? Are women not entitled to expect to be treated with respect just because they engage in casual sex?
Of course they are, but what I meant by fuck puppet is their (or the man's, but we are talking about the women's perspective now) status in that quasi relationship, and not being a literal ragdoll to be dragged around. If you go on a sex date or some improvised netflix and chill hangout, the only thing you can be sure about is that the other person intends to have a sexual encounter with you, and if you have absolutely no intentions like that, then do not ever go. Now, whether he is a cool and respectful guy who puts the male protagonists of romantic movies to shame, or an asshole who immidietly pulls down his pants and instructs you to have at it is a big-big question mark, unless you actually know the person (ie. you are friends who happened to take it to the next level).

You can always decline and leave if you feel you don't get the level of respect you would expect. But it is not a news-worthy story and this is not #metoo. If anything, the world would be a much better place if Aziz's actions were the worst examples of horny people trying to have their way. Not only was the control in the woman's hands the entire time, but when ultimately rejected, he didn't resort to project all hisfrustration and dissapointment at her in his anger.

I understand that there is a whole other debate within the lines about how you should and should not behave with women during casual sex-hookups, and while the topic is interesting, I don't think it necessarily belongs to sexual asshatery. Mighty Hollywood are/were people raping, groping and threatening (mostly) women, even underaged ones, and they were turned a blind eye for decades. They are like cancer, while this story about a shitty date is a pimple.

Just compare it with the Louis C K story. The women were allowed to leave as well, however he put them all on the spot, which can instigate fear, and in case of the phone calls, he never even asked for consent. And I don't like when people are joking about how hard it must be to put a telephone down, when the main issue is that do not fucking jerk off to a convo without consent, because it's creepy as hell. Some women were also threatened by his manager. Anyway, it's night and day compared to the Aziz "story".

[telee.kom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeaGK-KVHaY

lmao

[playwithfire]

I love Samantha Bee so much.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II-OP6vdMs8

[botley]

Anybody catch Dylan Farrow's on-camera interview with CBS (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dylan-farrow-interview-today-gayle-king-full-transcript-woody-allen-me-too/) about Woody Allen yesterday?

[thelastdisciple]

I think Bill's making some really great points here regarding the way some people have been giving an equality to inappropriate sexual behaviors and crimes in the news lately. Someone goes and touches someone's behind without permission. Yes It's gross, yes it's uncalled for, wrong and completely violating but trying to equate it to some poor women who have been raped is like saying a smack in the face is as bad as murder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1MZRowhMtc

[sweeterthan]

I think Bill's making some really great points here regarding the way some people have been giving an equality to inappropriate sexual behaviors and crimes in the news lately. Someone goes and touches someone's behind without permission. Yes It's gross, yes it's uncalled for, wrong and completely violating but trying to equate it to some poor women who have been raped is like saying a smack in the face is as bad as murder.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1MZRowhMtc
Except literally no one is saying that they’re equal. They’re saying it’s all bad. Watch the Samantha bee video. Bill Maher can stfu. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Edited to add: this is text book mansplaining. “Ladies, ladies, calm down. It’s not like you got raped! “

[elevenism]

Anybody catch Dylan Farrow's on-camera interview with CBS (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dylan-farrow-interview-today-gayle-king-full-transcript-woody-allen-me-too/) about Woody Allen yesterday?
Yeah, but Jesus God I don't want it to be true

[tremolo]

Of course they are, but what I meant by fuck puppet is their (or the man's, but we are talking about the women's perspective now) status in that quasi relationship, and not being a literal ragdoll to be dragged around. If you go on a sex date or some improvised netflix and chill hangout, the only thing you can be sure about is that the other person intends to have a sexual encounter with you, and if you have absolutely no intentions like that, then do not ever go. Now, whether he is a cool and respectful guy who puts the male protagonists of romantic movies to shame, or an asshole who immidietly pulls down his pants and instructs you to have at it is a big-big question mark, unless you actually know the person (ie. you are friends who happened to take it to the next level).

I’m not watching/reading news on the subject, so I don’t know what’s going on, but your first paragraph portrays that there is a huge lack of common sense going around nowadays.

Maybe it’s because of technology? I don’t know, but it seems people are losing touch with the real world and how it operates. It’s almost as basic as “don’t accept candies from strangers”.

We have to understand that there is a risk involved in meeting with strangers, especially meeting in a private place (their/your home). Whatever their social media says/shows, it is not necessarily a true indication of how they really are and what they are after. Yeah, social media and apps like tinder have made it easier than ever to hookup, or just to meet people with that intent. Common sense tells me: meet in a public neutral space, get a feel of how this person is, listen to your gut. And even if everything seems fine after a couple of dates, always be aware that you don’t know that person and that behind closed doors, their attitude might change from super nice to “i don’t take no for an answer”. Always let friends/family know where you’re going, who you’re meeting with, and at the first red flag, just walk away, leave, and have your phone ready for an emergency call just in case.


It’s a 2-way street. As much as we need to educate people not to force themselves sexually onto others, we also have to educate people on how things really are and how to be on the safer side for their own good.

[Volband]

I’m not watching/reading news on the subject, so I don’t know what’s going on, but your first paragraph portrays that there is a huge lack of common sense going around nowadays.

Maybe it’s because of technology? I don’t know, but it seems people are losing touch with the real world and how it operates. It’s almost as basic as “don’t accept candies from strangers”.

We have to understand that there is a risk involved in meeting with strangers, especially meeting in a private place (their/your home). Whatever their social media says/shows, it is not necessarily a true indication of how they really are and what they are after. Yeah, social media and apps like tinder have made it easier than ever to hookup, or just to meet people with that intent. Common sense tells me: meet in a public neutral space, get a feel of how this person is, listen to your gut. And even if everything seems fine after a couple of dates, always be aware that you don’t know that person and that behind closed doors, their attitude might change from super nice to “i don’t take no for an answer”. Always let friends/family know where you’re going, who you’re meeting with, and at the first red flag, just walk away, leave, and have your phone ready for an emergency call just in case.


It’s a 2-way street. As much as we need to educate people not to force themselves sexually onto others, we also have to educate people on how things really are and how to be on the safer side for their own good.
Not sure if you meant to disagree with something I said, but I can agree with you word for word.

If a date goes well (ie. we are already at a second date) I always try to inquire some info about how dates are perceived by a girl, and I learn many - to me - mindblowing stuff. Like, this one girl told me she had 3 girlfriends ready to bail her out if she needed the help to ditch me, or anyone else for that matter. Many girls (in bigger cities at least) have sprays at them too.

Anyway, there is a very distinct line between purging sexual predators and white-knighting girls who are apparently still in need to be spoon-fed. Just because the sign turns green at an intersection, you should still have enough brain cells to look left, then right before you proceed onwards. No, it is absolutely not your fault if some idiiot is driving rcklessly not caring about the traffic rules, but it is your own fault if you don't value your own safety enough to check out your environment.

A dude is inviting me to his apartment after our first date? Well, I would like [this relationship] to be something serious, so I'm gonna pass on that; if he truly likes me, a second date should be a no-brainer for him, and if he just wants to shag me, then I dodged a bullet! Easy as that. If you still accept his invitation (despite not wanting anything sexual), then this story is not about gender, but intelligence quotient.

I understand the idea of discussing how men should tone down their advancement and it might improve everyone's life, yada-yada, but until people like James Franco can play the martyr, I think we - as a society - have much bigger problems to discuss than "Tinder-culture".

edit: and how to approach a date should definitely be taught in school, but I heard in some US schools you can't even talk about sex... in sex ed.

[Swykk]

Up next: Enzo Amore http://www.prowrestlingsheet.com/enzo-amore-rape-allegations/#.WmZmaWJMGEc

Check the Twitter of the accuser, @missgucciwitch, if you want her entire story.

[thevoid99]

Up next: Enzo Amore http://www.prowrestlingsheet.com/enzo-amore-rape-allegations/#.WmZmaWJMGEc

Check the Twitter of the accuser, @missgucciwitch, if you want her entire story.

Well, I'm actually not surprised about this. The guy always seemed like an asshole as he did get kicked out of the bus by Roman Reigns of all people for talking about all the money he's making and shit.

[Volband]

She says she was in a mental hospital, yet she somehow got to keep her phone and keep tweeting?

She is the same woman who faked a pregnancy to get back together with her ex, though she (who - once again - faked a pregnancy) says she wouldn't fake a rape story. (The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDaF7XQzUrw&t= - she claims her boyfriend/ex raped her as well, jump to 5:09)

Here's her apology about using the "N word": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8AZPBQvQCA

Her tweet from 8 hours ago: "I just got cocaine in my eye & imgonna die?"- haha, not a junkie btw

The price of her dignity is 40$ if anyone's interested : https://twitter.com/missgucciwitch?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Es erp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Now, I'm not concluding anything, but if "Enzo always seemed like an asshole, so it's believable he raped someone", then I wonder what your assumption about this lady would be.

One thing is for sure: unless other people step out with similar stories about Enzo, she stands no chance in a trial.

edit: she just tweeted 10 mins ago about the holes in her hospital story: "BTW the treatment stay was supposed to be 45 days long but I started using my roommates phone around day 20 to get on social media & I left the center against medical advice around 26 days" - even if it's true, it still means she lied initially, + how could she use someone else's phone when they are supposed to take everyone's? I don't know whether you can leave a medical ward on your own, I know that when my mother was sent there, there was no way in hell she could've just said "I'm done, bye", but different countries so I don'T know.

Either way, she has to be the unluckiest person on Earth if among all her lies and trickery, this Enzo story is actually true. I doubt we will ever know.

[thelastdisciple]

Except literally no one is saying that they’re equal. They’re saying it’s all bad.
So what exactly would you call that Minnie Driver tweet? sure seems like equating an indecent exposure to something like rape to me.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure most people with a brain would agree that it's ALL bad behavior, that wasn't really what was being disputed and i don't really think Bill was talking specifically of the Me Too or Time's Up movements. It's that there's these people out there seemingly ready to hang people for petty shit.

EDIT 2: What happened to a regard for maybe letting the punishment fit the crime?

[sweeterthan]

So what exactly would you call that Minnie Driver tweet? sure seems like equating an indecent exposure to something like rape to me.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure most people with a brain would agree that it's ALL bad behavior, that wasn't really what was being disputed and i don't really think Bill was talking specifically of the Me Too or Time's Up movements. It's that there's these people out there seemingly ready to hang people for petty shit.

EDIT 2: What happened to a regard for maybe letting the punishment fit the crime?

Indecent exposure is traumatic for the victim. The perpetrators want their victims to be horrified. When I was 11, it happened to me (me too! See how that works?!) and my 10 year old sister in the parking lot of our apartment complex. For almost a year, I had nightmares about him and men like him. I was scared they were in the parking lot. Right outside my bedroom window. My badass mother chased him with a taser and we never saw him again. But I was still scared because I was traumatized. That’s how trauma works. It isn’t always logical but it is real.

What punishment has Minnie Driver asked for? She just said how some asshole made her feel with their shitty fucking actions. And what does Bill Maher do? Use her experience that he knows nothing about to basically say “I don’t give a fuck about her feelings, I has opinions.”

Really, all people have to do is not be shitty to each other and then no stories about their shitty actions would come out.

[thelastdisciple]

I'm sorry that happened to you and your sister especially at the ages you both were and you have my empathy, look I completely understand the psychological element involved in experiences like this. Trauma is an entirely subjective thing that can hit anyone in a variety of different ways but is there absolutely zero objectivity toward a distinction of these matters anymore? We can lump it all together as being entirely shitty absolutely and we absolutely must educate others as a society so we can avoid any of it even coming up at all as a discussion in the first place. Good grief i just think there's something really wrong or tone deaf when you can have a person who was completely terrorized both mentally and physically against their will left to feel like their pain is exactly the same as someone who had another person flash them their genitals or be sent an unsolicited picture. Perhaps you haven't seen this kind of thing going on at all but i have and it's sickening.

[ltrandazzo]

Up next: Enzo Amore http://www.prowrestlingsheet.com/enzo-amore-rape-allegations/#.WmZmaWJMGEc

Check the Twitter of the accuser, @missgucciwitch, if you want her entire story.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's gone. https://deadspin.com/wwe-releases-enzo-amore-following-rape-allegation-1822343420

Looks like he may have been released more for not reporting the word of his investigation to WWE than having actually committed it, but buh-bye Enzo.

[joplinpicasso]

Edited to add: this is text book mansplaining. “Ladies, ladies, calm down. It’s not like you got raped! “

If a woman makes the same points, is it still mansplaining?

[sweeterthan]

I'm sorry that happened to you and your sister especially at the ages you both were and you have my empathy, look I completely understand the psychological element involved in experiences like this. Trauma is an entirely subjective thing that can hit anyone in a variety of different ways but is there absolutely zero objectivity toward a distinction of these matters anymore? We can lump it all together as being entirely shitty absolutely and we absolutely must educate others as a society so we can avoid any of it even coming up at all as a discussion in the first place. Good grief i just think there's something really wrong or tone deaf when you can have a person who was completely terrorized both mentally and physically against their will left to feel like their pain is exactly the same as someone who had another person flash them their genitals or be sent an unsolicited picture. Perhaps you haven't seen this kind of thing going on at all but i have and it's sickening.

What’s the point of trying to quantify it if someone has always ready expressed that they feel violated? To make Bill Maher feel better about his problematic jokes?
The only reason to separate assault into degrees is for crime and punishment in the judicial system. The court of public opinion doesn’t need degrees. Nor do we need people like Maher speaking over people like Minnie driver. Has Bill Maher ever been sexually assaulted or harassed? If not, I don’t think he should speak on the subject at all. He should shut the fuck up and listen to the conversation presented by people who have lived through it.

It’s so good we are talking about it but Maher’s opinion is stupid and offensive. He considers himself a progressive but to me, he sounded like he’s living in the dark ages. I’ve been a massive fan of his since I was teenager but between this and the Christie fat jokes tribute, I feel like I’m done with him. I’ve always loved his ability to present different sides to every issue but he’s on the wrong side of this one.

[sweeterthan]

If a woman makes the same points, is it still mansplaining?
A woman did say these things. Caitlin somebody in response to Aziz Ansari's anonymous accuser. She's wrong too. But no, that's not called mansplaining. What is your point?

[joplinpicasso]

A woman did say these things. Caitlin somebody in response to Aziz Ansari's anonymous accuser. She's wrong too. But no, that's not called mansplaining. What is your point?

Just wanted to know if you would use a special, magical-seeming word to describe a woman making the same points and espousing the same thoughts/perspective. Judging from your other post above re: the "court of public opinion" not needing degrees and that you feel there is no point in trying to quantify suffering for pragmatic, social purposes, I feel like we wouldn't get very far in exchanging deeper disagreements right now.

[sweeterthan]

Just wanted to know if you would use a special, magical-seeming word to describe a woman making the same points and espousing the same thoughts/perspective. Judging from your other post above re: the "court of public opinion" not needing degrees and that you feel there is no point in trying to quantify suffering for pragmatic, social purposes, I feel like we wouldn't get very far in exchanging deeper disagreements right now.

‘Mansplaining’ is a necessary word.

Lily Rothman of The Atlantic defines it as "explaining without regard to the fact that the explainee knows more than the explainer, often done by a man to a woman",[5] and feminist author and essayist Rebecca Solnit ascribes the phenomenon to a combination of "overconfidence and cluelessness".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining

Isn’t this exactly what Bill Maher does in this segment? Glosses over Minnie Driver’s experience (and other’s experience) despite the fact the a) he’s never experienced it and b) wasn’t there.

If my use of that term offends you, then yes by all means, do not engage. However, i am using the term correctly.

Re: what I said about the court of public opinion. People who have been victimized don’t need their experience questioned and judged by random ass people who have no experience with assault and trauma. It isn’t helpful or supportive to say “at least you didn’t get raped”. Ranking or degree doesn’t make the thing that happened to them any less shitty. Like at all. Degrees only matter for punishment so that the sentence fits the crime.

What purpose could social ranking of assault serve? All that does make shitty people like Louis CK feel better about themselves and think their actions are less shitty than they actually are. “At least I’m not a rapist”.

[playwithfire]

A dude is inviting me to his apartment after our first date? Well, I would like [this relationship] to be something serious, so I'm gonna pass on that; if he truly likes me, a second date should be a no-brainer for him, and if he just wants to shag me, then I dodged a bullet! Easy as that. If you still accept his invitation (despite not wanting anything sexual), then this story is not about gender, but intelligence quotient.

I feel like you're missing the situation in which a woman A.) totally wants to go back to an apartment on a first date and do sexual stuff and B.) may not want to do have penis-in-vagina intercourse, and still have her pleasure treated like it matters, and have her consent respected. It is possible to have casual sex wherein people are treated with respect and their consent is respected, and being down for casual sex doesn't mean someone doesn't deserve that!

[aggroculture]

re: mansplaining. My wife is a professor with 2 phds and she tells me guys mansplain shit to her all the time. Randos will tell her basic 101 shit about her topic even after hearing she's a specialist in that field like they're imparting some special knowledge to her that she doesn't already know. It's cringeworthy to hear what guys tell her and it happens all the fucking time. The term was coined because we need a word for a phenomenon that is very very real, and which guys are often completely unaware of or oblivious to: that's the point. I think one of the most valuable lessons of feminist theory is the deconstruction of this idea that there is some objective social reality we all share and agree on: actually no, there are huge swathes of human interaction and activity that privilege (white, male, able-bodied, etc) completely obscures; banal example: I had no idea how ableist subways, sidewalks, or campuses are before I started pushing a stroller through them and got a glimpse of what it might be like for someone in a wheelchair.

[joplinpicasso]

‘Mansplaining’ is a necessary word.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining

Isn’t this exactly what Bill Maher does in this segment? Glosses over Minnie Driver’s experience (and other’s experience) despite the fact the a) he’s never experienced it and b) wasn’t there.

If my use of that term offends you, then yes by all means, do not engage. However, i am using the term correctly.

Re: what I said about the court of public opinion. People who have been victimized don’t need their experience questioned and judged by random ass people who have no experience with assault and trauma. It isn’t helpful or supportive to say “at least you didn’t get raped”. Ranking or degree doesn’t make the thing that happened to them any less shitty. Like at all. Degrees only matter for punishment so that the sentence fits the crime.

What purpose could social ranking of assault serve? All that does make shitty people like Louis CK feel better about themselves and think their actions are less shitty than they actually are. “At least I’m not a rapist”.

Thanks for linking the Wiki page on mansplaining and including that very nice and academic definition for posterity (I'm guessing). My disagreement with the term doesn't come from an unfamiliarity with it. It's a silly term which is analytically and philosophically reductive, not to mention conversationally toxic, IMO. You're using the term correctly but I think the term is not correct.

As for your other thoughts, I do think there is a deeper disagreement here on the philosophy of suffering. It's been historically difficult to measure pain, suffering, etc., obviously, and create some kind of taxonomy of it as we could never agree on the parameters, and yes, it may not be psychologically helpful to a victim of harassment to say, "Hey, at least you didn't get raped." But the fact that you already distinguish between "random ass people who have no experience with assault and trauma" and those who have experienced assault and trauma means that there are degrees and it doesn't "only matter for punishment so that the sentence fits the crime." It isn't with the goal of making people like Louis CK feel better but rather not flattening out the wide and varied experiences of pain felt by those who have been sexually wronged.

EDIT: Re: Aggroculture- very unfortunate for your wife to deal with shitty, condescending people, and, if they are condescending to her because she's a female professor, even worse! I think the term and the idea of deconstruction is not accurate because it only goes so far and then retroactively tries to explain social dynamics, and the models which come out of those critique-based schools of thought aren't themselves open to deconstruction and critique. For instance, a male boss can say the same snooty remark to a male employee and a female employee; it may be labeled as toxic masculine competition in the former and mansplaining in the latter, but true intersectionality (which does has many social benefits) would always require you to go deeper into the boss's psyche and social influences (not to mention neurological and genetic), so why stop there? It's reductive and retroactive on large scale and I think counter-productive on a small scale.

I'm sorry for having hijacked this thread in this way.

[theimage13]

And re: would you use the same word if it's a woman saying these things? No, of course not, because that's not the phenomenon we're talking about. The phenomenon is gender-based, hence the term "mansplaining". That's the key difference between "treating someone like they're an idiot and explaining things to them in a condescending manner" and "mansplaining". My better half is also a PhD (just one though) and she gets this regularly as well. Same with one of my dearest friends, who is an MD and PhD.

In other news, Nassar was just sentenced to 40-175 years. Good riddance.

[Volband]

I feel like you're missing the situation in which a woman A.) totally wants to go back to an apartment on a first date and do sexual stuff and B.) may not want to do have penis-in-vagina intercourse, and still have her pleasure treated like it matters, and have her consent respected. It is possible to have casual sex wherein people are treated with respect and their consent is respected, and being down for casual sex doesn't mean someone doesn't deserve that!
Sure, but what exactly is the outrage here? We all deserve respect, yet people shoulder us on the streets, cashiers can't even force a hello/bye out of their mouth, waiters are rude, people are jumping ahead of lines... and yes, two people in a situation where they non-verbally agreed to step on the next level (whether that level is kissing through the night on the couch or have intercourse) can be impatient or rude, and they can even misinterpret each other.

There is a line however between sexual assault (a very strong expression) and being a dork, and no one helps their case with stuff like "I blew him, BUT..." "He let me go as soon as I told him I wanted to go, BUT..." "He apologized later for misinterpreting the situation BUT..." But what? I totally see how a gentlemen would have behaved a lot differently, but so what? Should we really publicly condemn everyone who doesn't act as the nicest guy on the block? I think this is more of a lesson for women, than men. If you don't feel that you are getting the amount of respect you deserve, then don't feel bad about leaving - maybe they come around the next day, maybe they don't, but you preserved your integrity. This story is a sad representation of how - for some reason - some women think: "I'm gonna blow him, because he wants it and I'm just a woman, but the way he is treating me right now makes me not want to do it at all. Still, I am going to do it, because I guess that's what I worth." No, respect yourself the same way Aziz should have respected you. The more women do this, the more men (who are in need of a realization) will realize that it's pointless to force the macho shit as it leads to nothing but being alone with pornhub. But as long as it works, they will hardly give a damn.

[playwithfire]

We should absolutely condemn people who do bad things. What?

Also, Aziz repeatedly ignored her verbal requests to slow down and stop. He'd agree, she'd stay, and then he'd try again. If you are criticizing the woman BEFORE you criticize him, if you are criticizing her MORE than you are criticizing him, and you are doing both of those things, you are wrong.

[thevoid99]

In other news, Nassar was just sentenced to 40-175 years. Good riddance.

INDEED. I hope he becomes someone's bitch in prison and I love the fact that the judge had no sympathy for him and told him "I just signed your death warrant". That's fucking awesome.

[bobbie solo]

I love the fact that the judge had no sympathy for him and told him "I just signed your death warrant".

http://wallpaperrs.com/uploads/movies/thumbs/death-warrant-formidable-hd-wallpaper-142942754727.jpg

[sweeterthan]

Thanks for linking the Wiki page on mansplaining and including that very nice and academic definition for posterity (I'm guessing). My disagreement with the term doesn't come from an unfamiliarity with it. It's a silly term which is analytically and philosophically reductive, not to mention conversationally toxic, IMO. You're using the term correctly but I think the term is not correct.


I included it for you. Because you think it’s a "a special, magical-seeming word“, i wanted to make sure we’re on the same page as to what it is. You are welcome. You quoted me and asked a question. I answered you despite how stupid and loaded I thought the question was. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt to make your point. I’m still not sure what that is, other than to say that you think the word mansplain is silly and special and magical. You also say it’s conversationally toxic but add no other information as to why you feel the need to express that in response to me and my post about Bill Maher’s mansplaining.



As for your other thoughts, I do think there is a deeper disagreement here on the philosophy of suffering. It's been historically difficult to measure pain, suffering, etc., obviously, and create some kind of taxonomy of it as we could never agree on the parameters, and yes, it may not be psychologically helpful to a victim of harassment to say, "Hey, at least you didn't get raped.”

What is the disagreement? You’re making my point by saying it difficult to measure someone’s pain. That’s why its wrong for Maher to speak like he did about any woman’s personal experience. It’s disrespectful to assume we know anything about another person’s pain and questioning the severity of their experience possibly adds to their trauma.




But the fact that you already distinguish between "random ass people who have no experience with assault and trauma" and those who have experienced assault and trauma means that there are degrees and it doesn't "only matter for punishment so that the sentence fits the crime." It isn't with the goal of making people like Louis CK feel better but rather not flattening out the wide and varied experiences of pain felt by those who have been sexually wronged.
You’re almost making a point here. “not flattening out the wide and varied experiences of pain felt by those who have been sexually wronged” No one is doing that tho. If you have examples of that, please share them.




I'm sorry for having hijacked this thread in this way.
Have you even watched the Bill Maher video? Have you read the interview with Minnie Driver? The reason it has gone this way is because you posted a snarky question without contributing to the discussion in even a slightly meaningful way. You don’t like my word choice. You don’t agree. Ok. Thanks for posting.

[thevoid99]

Hillary Clinton Chose to Shield a Top Adviser Accused of Harassment in 2008
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/26/us/politics/hillary-clinton-chose-to-shield-a-top-adviser-accused-of-harassment-in-2008.html

"Mrs. Clinton’s campaign manager at the time recommended that she fire the adviser, Burns Strider. But Mrs. Clinton did not. Instead, Mr. Strider was docked several weeks of pay and ordered to undergo counseling, and the young woman was moved to a new job."



cue: every fucking time Clinton pointed out her value for having a goddamned vagina and most of her voter-base eating that shit up.


edit: eating the rhetoric up, not the alleged glorious leadership-grade woman empowerment vagina. but you know whatever works.

I'm not really surprised by this considering that she took money from Harvey Weinstein all of these years. I guess she is crooked.

[playwithfire]

I mean, I know Hillary is not responsible for the actions of her husband but also she was realllll chill about being married to a rapist. And the Weinstein shit, and just, color me utterly unsurprised.

[tremolo]

But she is a woman , so this won’t be a big deal in the public eye.

[playwithfire]

Yeah, obviously that's the part of this to focus on. Not Hillary's actions. Not the behavior of the man she shielded. But "she is a woman so this won't be as big of a deal" -- good take, dude.

[tremolo]

Yeah, obviously that's the part of this to focus on. Not Hillary's actions. Not the behavior of the man she shielded. But "she is a woman so this won't be as big of a deal" -- good take, dude.

I never said that should be the only focus. Can’t a subject be addressed from different angles?

Apparently not.

[Swykk]

Your “angle” is short-sighted.

CNN (the Clinton News Network to Trumpites) ran that story front and center on its website yesterday (I don’t have cable so I don’t know if it was as prominent on TV or not). It’s being covered.

[playwithfire]

I never said that should be the only focus. Can’t a subject be addressed from different angles?

Apparently not.

It's the only thing you brought up, which speaks volumes about your priorities.

If you don't in fact internally go "but double standards" when seeing reporting about a politician being shitty and protecting an abuser, and instead actually think about the actions of the people in power, and feel empathy for the person who had to experience the harassment, then I'm sure you appreciate being given a heads up that your choice to comment instead on Hillary's gender making this less of a big deal in the public eye shows a big lack of empathy, so you can course correct in the future. You're welcome!

[sweeterthan]

There isn’t a page in this thread where women aren’t blamed for the shitty actions of men.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thevoid99]

Here's a new one and.... I'm not surprised by this considering that he's a real piece of shit.... Scott Baio: https://www.thewrap.com/scott-baio-nicole-eggert-molested-charles-in-charge/

[Conan The Barbarian]

Here's a new one and.... I'm not surprised by this considering that he's a real piece of shit.... Scott Baio: https://www.thewrap.com/scott-baio-nicole-eggert-molested-charles-in-charge/

Scott Baio is not Sancho.
http://cdn.chud.com/8/82/350x700px-LL-82101610_orgazmo26.png

[thevoid99]

Scott Baio is not Sancho.
http://cdn.chud.com/8/82/350x700px-LL-82101610_orgazmo26.png

*strums guitar*

[bobbie solo]

sigh...Bill Clinton, while certainly a philanderer & of very questionable moral character, is not a rapist. Unless I missed something big being dropped in the last few years, and not just more right wing kookism.

[allegro]

sigh...Bill Clinton, while certainly a philanderer & of very questionable moral character, is not a rapist. Unless I missed something big being dropped in the last few years, and not just more right wing kookism.

Gotta go back way further than that, bud, he was accused of sexual assault (in the 70s), it was swept under the rug much like with POTUS

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/us/politics/bill-clinton-sexual-misconduct-debate.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/opinion/juanita-broaddrick-bill-clinton.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

https://www.mrctv.org/videos/full-dateline-nbc-juanita-broaddrick-bill-clinton-raping-her

[allegro]

This Larry Nassar Michigan State US Gymnastics case is HORRIFYING.

I watched his sentencing live, there isn’t an adequate sentence for him or all the enablers around him (who should be chained to him in prison).

All those girls, HUNDREDS of them, tried telling people, but were ignored.

http://trib.in/2FQ97NV

[theimage13]

This Larry Nassar Michigan State US Gymnastics case is HORRIFYING.

I watched his sentencing live, there isn’t an adequate sentence for him or all the enablers around him (who should be chained to him in prison).

All those girls, HUNDREDS of them, tried telling people, but were ignored.

http://trib.in/2FQ97NV

That was an interesting sentencing. There's been some backlash about both the judge's phrasing and, of course, backlash to THAT backlash.

It rubbed me the wrong way to see a judge tell the person she's about to sentence that she wouldn't mind seeing him get sexually assaulted in prison. It rubbed me the wrong way that she literally said she "signed your death warrant" - no. Let other people (reporters, Twitter users, etc) make that analogy all they want, but you are the judge handing down a sentence, and you sentenced him to prison, not execution. Please don't belittle the severity of capital punishment.

HOWEVER, I also see Nassar as an utterly inhuman monster, and what minor gripes I have about the sentencing speech absolutely pale in comparison to the incomprehensible atrocities that he committed. THOSE actions are what have me riled up, and it's comforting to know that he'll never have the chance to abuse a child again. So while the above things irked me a little bit, I'm not in some genuine rage about them. Given that it was a sentencing after a plea and not something said during a trial, there's less concern over her appearing biased or having made up her mind about something already. She spoke to the fact that she was ready to go to trial with an open mind and accept that MAYBE there was a medical explanation for the things he did, but once he admitted otherwise, she told him off. For the most part, that doesn't bother me. Just the couple parts mentioned above that made me cringe a little.

But to repeat, and to be clear: if there is a hell, let Nassar burn in it.

(And slightly off-topic: hopefully this also opens peoples' eyes to the value of local news. This story finally broke because of the tireless work of one Indianapolis newspaper, not some sensationalist 24/7 cable "news" channel or even a respected national newspaper.)

[tremolo]

It's the only thing you brought up, which speaks volumes about your priorities.

If you don't in fact internally go "but double standards" when seeing reporting about a politician being shitty and protecting an abuser, and instead actually think about the actions of the people in power, and feel empathy for the person who had to experience the harassment, then I'm sure you appreciate being given a heads up that your choice to comment instead on Hillary's gender making this less of a big deal in the public eye shows a big lack of empathy, so you can course correct in the future. You're welcome!

Your vision is so polarized and irrational. If someone doesn’t react in the same way that you do, they must be wrong, they’re part of the problem, their priorities are not right, they lack empathy, as if the victims were on ETS pressing F5 expecting to read more posts from absolute strangers supporting them. Whatever I post here doesn’t affect the victims, it may affect whoever reads it, and then it becomes how it makes YOU feel... but this is not about you, is it?

Bringing up other angles is forbidden, otherwise some lunatic will start talking shit. I find it funny that you talk about me and my priorities as if you knew me, as if a couple posts on the internet could define me or summarize my position in the subject. It’s all black and white, no grey zone in between, you either do as we do and agree with us 100% or you are against us, our cause, and the victims.

And on top of it all, you are so enlightened and good that you tell me how to correct what I’m doing wrong so I can be right and be more like you, and I should be thankful for it. Of course there is no arrogance in that, it all comes from a place of caring and doing good deeds and making this world a better place.

Damn it that horse is so fucking high.

[sweeterthan]

That was an interesting sentencing. There's been some backlash about both the judge's phrasing and, of course, backlash to THAT backlash.

It rubbed me the wrong way to see a judge tell the person she's about to sentence that she wouldn't mind seeing him get sexually assaulted in prison. It rubbed me the wrong way that she literally said she "signed your death warrant" - no. Let other people (reporters, Twitter users, etc) make that analogy all they want, but you are the judge handing down a sentence, and you sentenced him to prison, not execution. Please don't belittle the severity of capital punishment.

HOWEVER, I also see Nassar as an utterly inhuman monster, and what minor gripes I have about the sentencing speech absolutely pale in comparison to the incomprehensible atrocities that he committed. THOSE actions are what have me riled up, and it's comforting to know that he'll never have the chance to abuse a child again. So while the above things irked me a little bit, I'm not in some genuine rage about them. Given that it was a sentencing after a plea and not something said during a trial, there's less concern over her appearing biased or having made up her mind about something already. She spoke to the fact that she was ready to go to trial with an open mind and accept that MAYBE there was a medical explanation for the things he did, but once he admitted otherwise, she told him off. For the most part, that doesn't bother me. Just the couple parts mentioned above that made me cringe a little.

But to repeat, and to be clear: if there is a hell, let Nassar burn in it.

(And slightly off-topic: hopefully this also opens peoples' eyes to the value of local news. This story finally broke because of the tireless work of one Indianapolis newspaper, not some sensationalist 24/7 cable "news" channel or even a respected national newspaper.)

Yes. All of this. I don’t care about what she said about death warrant but I do have a problem with the continuation of sex abuse and rape as punishment. There is no justice in rape as punishment. It is sick and sad that people think it is justified because the person is an abuser. It just makes more abusers and feeds rape culture.


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[allegro]

That was an interesting sentencing. There's been some backlash about both the judge's phrasing and, of course, backlash to THAT backlash.

It rubbed me the wrong way to see a judge tell the person she's about to sentence that she wouldn't mind seeing him get sexually assaulted in prison. It rubbed me the wrong way that she literally said she "signed your death warrant" - no. Let other people (reporters, Twitter users, etc) make that analogy all they want, but you are the judge handing down a sentence, and you sentenced him to prison, not execution. Please don't belittle the severity of capital punishment.

HOWEVER, I also see Nassar as an utterly inhuman monster, and what minor gripes I have about the sentencing speech absolutely pale in comparison to the incomprehensible atrocities that he committed. THOSE actions are what have me riled up, and it's comforting to know that he'll never have the chance to abuse a child again. So while the above things irked me a little bit, I'm not in some genuine rage about them. Given that it was a sentencing after a plea and not something said during a trial, there's less concern over her appearing biased or having made up her mind about something already. She spoke to the fact that she was ready to go to trial with an open mind and accept that MAYBE there was a medical explanation for the things he did, but once he admitted otherwise, she told him off. For the most part, that doesn't bother me. Just the couple parts mentioned above that made me cringe a little.

But to repeat, and to be clear: if there is a hell, let Nassar burn in it.

(And slightly off-topic: hopefully this also opens peoples' eyes to the value of local news. This story finally broke because of the tireless work of one Indianapolis newspaper, not some sensationalist 24/7 cable "news" channel or even a respected national newspaper.)
Yes, one victim went to that newspaper and that’s how something was FINALLY done.

When a search warrant was issued, the police found over 130,000 images of child porn on his computer hard drive in a trash can at the curb. His letter to the court (parts of which the judge read during sentencing) complained that it wasn’t even that much porn and he didn’t have it for very long so his Federal sentence wasn’t fair. The judge’s statement about a “death warrant” was for the victims. Nassar deserves NO sympathy. His letter complained that the victims were only doing victim impact statements for money and publicity. He got worse than a death sentence: life in prison. (Death row prisoners are segregated; the remaining prisoners are among the general prison population.)

The fact that an entire system fixated more on gold medals than on human beings, and covered up what he was doing, is even more awful.

This guy will die in prison, will never be around little girls ever again.

I watched the entire sentencing and I did not hear the judge say she wouldn’t mind Nassar getting sexually assaulted in prison.

What I DID see was a judge being very very careful as to procedure; she wants this to stick, she doesn’t want to give grounds for an appeal.

As far as what happens to these types of criminals in prison, it’s true that they don’t do very well. They are often killed in prison. That is not what the judge meant (she meant life, and death, in prison, not murder in prison); but when you commit these kinds of acts, that’s the reality of the prison system.

Edit: Here is the complete transcript of the Judge’s sentencing statement (https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/24/us/judge-rosemarie-aquilina-full-statement/index.html)

Note that one of Nassar’s victims committed suicide, and the father of one of Nassar’s victims committed suicide. That we know of, could be more.

[allegro]

And here is the impact statement of (survivor) Rachael Denhollander, a MUST READ:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/24/us/rachael-denhollander-full-statement/index.html

[theimage13]

I watched the entire sentencing and I did not hear the judge say she wouldn’t mind Nassar getting sexually assaulted in prison.


Sorry - so much news these days that I got my court dates and quotes crossed. Not from the sentencing date itself, but nevertheless from Judge Aquilina (http://fortune.com/2018/01/24/judge-transcript-sentence-larry-nassar/) during the first day of the sentencing hearing:


At the very end of Tuesday's hearing, the judge imagined aloud what she'd like to do to Nassar if not for the Eighth Amendment to the US Constitution.
"Our Constitution does not allow for cruel and unusual punishment," she said. "If it did, I have to say, I might allow what he did to all of these beautiful souls -- these young women in their childhood -- I would allow someone or many people to do to him what he did to others."

[allegro]

Sorry - so much news these days that I got my court dates and quotes crossed. Not from the sentencing date itself, but nevertheless from Judge Aquilina (http://fortune.com/2018/01/24/judge-transcript-sentence-larry-nassar/) during the first day of the sentencing hearing:

Well, but she DOES say that it’s not allowed per our Constitution.

And many of the survivors’ statements indicated that they wished he could receive this equal punishment.

The “eye for an eye” desire for equal suffering is from a visceral and emotional need for closure. It’s emotional, not logical, from deep and permanent pain and suffering.

I am in no position to tell them that they are wrong. Their healing process is their own. The judge was merely echoing (and expressing empathy with) their sentiments, while explaining that our Constitution prevents it.

The judge made it clear that all parties were and are aware that her main focus is on the victims, and the sentencing was no exception.

The judge, more importantly, called for a complete and immediate investigation into the system that allowed Nassar to not only molest young girls but also protected him and delivered the victims to him.

And heads are already rolling.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4360166-1-25-18-USOC-Letter.html

[Volband]

Your vision is so polarized and irrational. If someone doesn’t react in the same way that you do, they must be wrong, they’re part of the problem, their priorities are not right, they lack empathy, as if the victims were on ETS pressing F5 expecting to read more posts from absolute strangers supporting them. Whatever I post here doesn’t affect the victims, it may affect whoever reads it, and then it becomes how it makes YOU feel... but this is not about you, is it?

Bringing up other angles is forbidden, otherwise some lunatic will start talking shit. I find it funny that you talk about me and my priorities as if you knew me, as if a couple posts on the internet could define me or summarize my position in the subject. It’s all black and white, no grey zone in between, you either do as we do and agree with us 100% or you are against us, our cause, and the victims.

And on top of it all, you are so enlightened and good that you tell me how to correct what I’m doing wrong so I can be right and be more like you, and I should be thankful for it. Of course there is no arrogance in that, it all comes from a place of caring and doing good deeds and making this world a better place.

Damn it that horse is so fucking high.
The most interesting thing about this is that you don't meet people like the ETS crusaders in real life. I don't mean never ever, but when you go to work, visit your relatives and go out with your friends, you don't see this... this bottomless anger and frustration. There are always those few people with their weird view of the world (maybe we are those people, each to their own, right?), but I've talked with other girls/women and transgendered people (MtF if it matters) about stuff like this and they were all pretty fucking cool about everything. I've never met with this kind of antagonizing, rude attitude, even if we happened to disagree.

It is a very fascinating anomaly, where women's right or respect towards women reaches to such levels, where you actually ask yourself "can they even breath on their own?" - I mean, how unfit for adult life you have to be in order to be the protagonist girl in the Aziz story? Other than dumping newborn babies in the garbage (or freezer, or wherever) to die, I don't think anything can make certain women less respectable than these very radical views. Like, go up to any everyday Joe or Jane on the street and try to gather some pity for the woman who willingly blew an asshole. Other than people who throw around expressions like toxic masculinity and mansplaining, no one would care. There are women being physically and sexually abused even in relationships; there are women having to work twice as hard for recognition; there are women who can't even blink at party places without their drink getting compromised and the list goes on. Has any of you seen the video of that streamer throwing a live party? A bunch of guys were pretending to be drinking, guys pouring their drinks into a girls' cup and a guy getting completely unconscious after drinking a beverage which was meant to be drank by a girl. I heard a lot about roofies, but I never actually knew this shit is as serious as it is. Creepy is not a strong enough word to describe those scenes.

The best cure between two online arguments with such people is asking girls IRL about these topics. Trust me, when girls rip apart "that bitch" in the Aziz story, you postpone your plans of trying to gain entry into an asylum for your sanity. Also, watch the "I give you all the respect you deserve my Queen!!!!!!" guys being rejected by girls left and right. Trying to blow air into women's mouth so they can breathe more easily is not the definition of respect.

Btw no one hits F5 here in hopes of new people supporting them. There are the same people on each side, every time. It's actually rare to see so many people having the same exact opinion all the time. There is black and there is white; if you can't handle the fact that our grey opinion will always be considered - for a lack of a better word now - primitive for this group of people, you should save yourself the trouble and don't bother expressing it.

[playwithfire]

And on top of it all, you are so enlightened and good that you tell me how to correct what I’m doing wrong so I can be right and be more like you, and I should be thankful for it. Of course there is no arrogance in that, it all comes from a place of caring and doing good deeds and making this world a better place.

Damn it that horse is so fucking high.

Ok happy to help!!!

[Swykk]

https://youtu.be/QzBmQMyYDBk
I’m just laughing at tremolo and Volband at this point. It’s so on the nose I can’t be mad.

Also, Vince McMahon? Not shocking to me. http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2018/0127/636377/top-media-outlets-running-stories-on-old-vince-mcmahon-sexual/

[thevoid99]

https://youtu.be/QzBmQMyYDBk
I’m just laughing at tremolo and Volband at this point. It’s so on the nose I can’t be mad.

Also, Vince McMahon? Not shocking to me. http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2018/0127/636377/top-media-outlets-running-stories-on-old-vince-mcmahon-sexual/

I'm not shocked about Meekmahan. Anyone who watches WWE for years probably knew as we all know he has a hard on for muscular men....

http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/vince-mcmahon-bodybuilder-gif-11.gif

[thevoid99]

Can't we the people give Randall Margraves five minutes to beat the holy fuck out of Larry Nassar? A father had every right to go after that piece of shit: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accusers-dad-charges-larry-nassar-during-sentencing-hearing-n844031?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

[Swykk]

Repulsive subhuman trash Devin Faraci (and that was before he was outed as a sexual predator) was interviewed for an upcoming PBS special on the MeToo movement.

Fuck him. I hope this is the last we have to hear of him but sadly I also know the egomaniac can’t possibly fade away without a fight.

[Volband]

Can't we the people give Randall Margraves five minutes to beat the holy fuck out of Larry Nassar? A father had every right to go after that piece of shit: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accusers-dad-charges-larry-nassar-during-sentencing-hearing-n844031?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
No, we can't. Behave like a civilized human being instead of some savage. It always amuses me when primitive behaviour can be excused with "but the victim is a piece of shit!" The extreme version of this twisted sentiment are the public executions on the streets in the Middle-East and Africa.

I bet the three girls were delighted that in top of all the hell they've been through, now the footage of their dad making a hissy fit and being constrained like an animal made head news. This is what pisses me off the most. If you want to make a goon out of yourself, be my guest. But this is just another kick in the stomach for the girls who were already rather be anywhere else than there.

[theimage13]

I bet the three girls were delighted that in top of all the hell they've been through, now the footage of their dad making a hissy fit and being constrained like an animal made head news. This is what pisses me off the most. If you want to make a goon out of yourself, be my guest. But this is just another kick in the stomach for the girls who were already rather be anywhere else than there.

Ah yes, here's what needed. A guy telling us how women he's never met feel about something. Thank god we have an expert on how these young women feel about something that you've never experienced!

Look, I don't condone the father's actions. I understand where they come from. I've been in a similar, albeit less extreme, situation, and my blood was boiling. I understand that some men are incapable of showing restraint in these situations. There is a small, small part of me that looked at a still photo from that, saw Nassar cowering, and thought "I'm glad he looks like he's afraid, because now maybe he has a little understanding of how he made those young girls feel". But he was never in any actual danger, which yes, I believe is a good thing.

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. Like I said earlier in this thread, I don't like continuing the cycle of violence. So I'm not going to say that what the father did was a good thing, because it wasn't. We have to be better than the criminals.

So yes, be upset that this guy tried to attack Nassar. But DO NOT put words in the mouths of these particular victims. DO NOT claim that you know how they feel. Their testimony that triggered the incident spoke to the fact that the entire family was "put through hell" by Nassar's actions. For all we know, they're grateful to know that their father loves them so much that his inhibitions abandoned him after hearing how someone attacked them. Maybe they're not. But that's up to them to decide - not you.

[Aladdinsanity]

No, we can't. Behave like a civilized human being instead of some savage. It always amuses me when primitive behaviour can be excused with "but the victim is a piece of shit!" The extreme version of this twisted sentiment are the public executions on the streets in the Middle-East and Africa.

I bet the three girls were delighted that in top of all the hell they've been through, now the footage of their dad making a hissy fit and being constrained like an animal made head news. This is what pisses me off the most. If you want to make a goon out of yourself, be my guest. But this is just another kick in the stomach for the girls who were already rather be anywhere else than there.

Your ability to go from chauvinist to bootlicker in the span of two consecutive posts is kind of incredible.

[sweeterthan]

Yes, I found it weird that I agree with Volband in this thread for once. I’m sure watching guards jump on your loved one to subdue them is traumatic. Allegro mention how these things come from a place of emotion. I cannot blame the father for how he feels at all but I wish there was a way for him to work out his anger that didn’t involve public humiliation. The sooner sentencing is over, the sooner the victims and their families can hopefully move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Volband]

Ah yes, here's what needed. A guy telling us how women he's never met feel about something. Thank god we have an expert on how these young women feel about something that you've never experienced!

Look, I don't condone the father's actions. I understand where they come from. I've been in a similar, albeit less extreme, situation, and my blood was boiling. I understand that some men are incapable of showing restraint in these situations. There is a small, small part of me that looked at a still photo from that, saw Nassar cowering, and thought "I'm glad he looks like he's afraid, because now maybe he has a little understanding of how he made those young girls feel". But he was never in any actual danger, which yes, I believe is a good thing.

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. Like I said earlier in this thread, I don't like continuing the cycle of violence. So I'm not going to say that what the father did was a good thing, because it wasn't. We have to be better than the criminals.

So yes, be upset that this guy tried to attack Nassar. But DO NOT put words in the mouths of these particular victims. DO NOT claim that you know how they feel. Their testimony that triggered the incident spoke to the fact that the entire family was "put through hell" by Nassar's actions. For all we know, they're grateful to know that their father loves them so much that his inhibitions abandoned him after hearing how someone attacked them. Maybe they're not. But that's up to them to decide - not you.
Fair enough, though not sure why you had to emphasize they are women. I don't think being embarassed or not had anything to do with the genders here.

One thing though, which makes it worse for me: it was not a heat of the moment action. If you come home to one of your loved ones, friends etc being assaulted, then sure enough, put a dent in the assaulter; I'm not advocating it, but I won't preach about savagery either. But this was in a courtroom and the build-up was sooo comical and seemed sooo predetermined from the father that I'm just shaking my head.

It is, however, really interesting to read the reactions over the internet. Reminds me of that Black Mirror episode, Enemy of the State. The first instance we get a green light to be as hateful as possible, we absolutely take that opportunity.


Your ability to go from chauvinist to bootlicker in the span of two consecutive posts is kind of incredible.
Thank you, but I believe it is merely a sympton of me being a human. You know, being capable of varied, even complex thoughts, while having an array of dirrefent views and values in the world.

[sweeterthan]

Maybe the moment is still heated for this father tho? It’s not something you just get over. This moment is still going on for them. They’re still in a courtroom dealing with this. His actions could have been predetermined, but I have no doubt the father’s emotions and anger are real.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Volband]

For sure, I don't doubt that, but the whole scene with him losing his temper almost like at cue, when the judge did not give him his one minute looked like something straight out of WWE. His hatred is no doubt real and more than understandable, but his action was absolutely pointless, helped no one, and to top it all off, looked way too theatrical.

And during this whole ordeal, the fact that Nassan could do what he did for decades goes absolutely silent. Even if you pulled a gun on him and shoot his brains out, you'd still only terminate the result, and not the reason he could do what he did for as long as he did. It's like with Weinstein; they hang him as high as possible, so the rest of his affiliates can lurk in the shadows longer.

[aggroculture]

CW warning for rape: it's MJK:
https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status/1010337544637067264
ugh ugh ugh

[JessicaSarahS]

CW warning for rape: it's MJK:
https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status/1010337544637067264
ugh ugh ugh

Oh boy... :(

[gerbil]

This sucks. The accuser always gets the benefit of belief but I have to admit I don’t like people going to anonymous twitter accounts instead of through a journalist.


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[Cookster426]

I call bullshit, but we'll wait and see.

[ltrandazzo]

CW warning for rape: it's MJK:
https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status/1010337544637067264
ugh ugh ugh

I'm 100% ready to believe this woman. I am also 100% certain that she needs to be contacted and interviewed by a journalist so they can work on making her story credible. This appears to be similar to another story making the rounds from the same 2000 timeframe but with Happy Gilmore as the movie, so there is a trail there to follow.

[gerbil]

I'm 100% ready to believe this woman. I am also 100% certain that she needs to be contacted and interviewed by a journalist so they can work on making her story credible. This appears to be similar to another story making the rounds from the same 2000 timeframe but with Happy Gilmore as the movie, so there is a trail there to follow.

You articulated my thoughts much better than I did. I’m ready to believe her but there’s but there’s gotta be something more than an anonymous burner account without any corroborating information.


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[zecho]

In a world where things like the Björk acid attack happened because a fan wanted to destroy her life, I'm never 100% ready to believe anything. I'm not saying that it's a lie, but I am saying that I have no more reason to believe it than not believe it. I'll wait and see what happens before I form a reaction.

[ryanmcfly]

This sucks. The accuser always gets the benefit of belief but I have to admit I don’t like people going to anonymous twitter accounts instead of through a journalist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This. I find it hard to believe that it's legit, but I will not say it's bullshit. It sucks because I want to believe the victim, but I don't like how she went about it.

[ltrandazzo]

This. I find it hard to believe that it's legit, but I will not say it's bullshit.

Nothing surprises me anymore with any of the men I'm a fan of.

[tony.parente]

Man, it almost seems like you have to just assume that your favorite rockstars have sexually abused someone in their past nowadays.

That's fucking horrible to hear :(

[Krazy]

Sorry, but what does “CW” mean?...

[gerbil]

Sorry, but what does “CW” mean?...

Content Warning


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[gerbil]

Looking over the Reddit thread for this, my main takeaway is that people seem really surprised that rockstars have (consensual) sex with groupies. I’m actually surprised at the lack of a ton of flunkies rushing in to try and discredit the twitter poster.

My person position is basically that until we hear from Nardo, the band, a lawyer, or someone coming forward with corroborating information there’s nothing to do and I’m not gonna lose sleep over it.


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[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Another one bites the dust

[elevenism]

.....

[Dryalex12]

All ill say is I remain Agnostic about this and leave it at that, dont wanna piss anyone off. Maynard is a very smart person, so im hoping this wasnt something he at least meant to do. Im curious how he is going to respond

[botley]

Doesn't matter if he 'meant to' rape, you guys, that's not how consent works.

[theimage13]

CW warning for rape: it's MJK:
https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status/1010337544637067264
ugh ugh ugh

Re: tweet #4

I've been that guy (or in this story's case, woman) who gets sent out to hand a pass to someone. Rather, I've been asked to be that guy. I've had engineers point someone out in the crowd and tell me to go get them a pass. The implication seems to be that this person would be for us to share (yes, really). Because when I just stand there, not moving at all, the follow-up I get from the engineer is "what, are you gay or something?" I usually just shrug and say "or something". (spoiler alert: not gay).

I guess my point here is that I know for a fact that people will in fact be invited backstage at the request of someone in power, and for very specific reasons. I wish I didn't believe this story, but I absolutely do. I also wish that she'd felt able to get away from the situation before it escalated, but I do not blame her at all for not being able to. 17 year old girl (young woman) vs 36 year old man with martial arts experience and fame on HIS turf? I absolutely don't blame her for being frozen. This is why I advocate self-defense classes. Maybe it would have helped here. Then again, maybe it wouldn't have. But on top of the #1 way to reduce rape (which is to pound it into mens' heads to NOT FUCKING RAPE PEOPLE), giving women the confidence and skill to fight back is an important thing to do. Again, to be absolutely, positively clear, the woman is never at fault and it's 100% up to guys to not rape in the first place, but unless they magically stop doing it, I encourage people to do what it takes to standing a fighting chance.

[theimage13]

Yeeeeeah, ok. I saw this coming. Out of morbid curiosity, I've read about what Maynard is like with groupies on groupie review sites and shit.They all said he was cold and detached and business like and just got down to it.

I've got some ideas here but they aren't very PC, so let's just say that I sure don't think MJK knowingly or purposely raped anyone.

What part of "36 year old celebrity invites 17 year old girl onto tour bus and goes from 'let's watch a movie' to him fucking her while she sits paralyzed in fear" doesn't sound like knowingly raping her?

[theimage13]

GODDAMNIT MAYNARD (https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status/1010337544637067264)

[elevenism]

What part of "36 year old celebrity invites 17 year old girl onto tour bus and goes from 'let's watch a movie' to him fucking her while she sits paralyzed in fear" doesn't sound like knowingly raping her?
Edit:
Never fucking mind. I'm not doing this.

[r_z]

groupie review sites
wtf?

[elevenism]

wtf?Yup.
Take a look.
It's pretty fucked up. It's women talking about the musicians (not the other way around) and will make you pretty sick.

Edit: here's one of them r_z http://metalsludge.tv/the-long-and-short-of-it-the-world-famous-penis-chart/

[cdm]

post deleted

Original post was deleted so I'll delete mine.

[elevenism]

This is bullshit. "Don't get me wrong it's still fucked up" doesn't change the fact you use the rest of the post to basically excuse what is alleged because it was the "status quo."I wasn't excusing it.
I said the man probably didn't consider it rape.

And I shouldn't have said anything. I'm not fucking arguing about it.

The last thing I will say on the matter is that it utterly baffles me that anyone is surprised by this.

[playwithfire]

Jeeeeeesus :(

[Sarah K]

It'll be real interesting to see how people respond to this one.

Fucking awful.

[theimage13]

I wasn't excusing it.
I said the man probably didn't consider it rape.

And I shouldn't have said anything. I'm not fucking arguing about it.

I'm not looking for an argument. I'm interested in a reasoned discussion. What makes you think he didn't consider it rape? He's got years of fame under his belt by that point; he knows he has power. He's talking to someone who's young; he knows they're more likely to experiment and risk regretting something later than simply saying no. He's forcing himself on someone who, by her account, clearly isn't reciprocating; he knows she's not really consenting.

If he doesn't know, then why not? There needs to be an answer to that - if not from you, from society at large. Because if a man honestly doesn't know whether what he's doing is considered rape, that's a really big and extremely scary problem. How does a guy not know the difference between consensual sex and rape? It's an important topic; please don't run away from it. If you can articulate on how this happens, then maybe we (as a society) can do something about making sure men understand what they're doing in the future. Can't solve a problem if you can't explain it in the first place. Help us solve the problem.

[ickyvicky]

Holy moly....

[elevenism]

I'm not looking for an argument. I'm interested in a reasoned discussion. What makes you think he didn't consider it rape? He's got years of fame under his belt by that point; he knows he has power. He's talking to someone who's young; he knows they're more likely to experiment and risk regretting something later than simply saying no. He's forcing himself on someone who, by her account, clearly isn't reciprocating; he knows she's not really consenting.

If he doesn't know, then why not? There needs to be an answer to that - if not from you, from society at large. Because if a man honestly doesn't know whether what he's doing is considered rape, that's a really big and extremely scary problem. How does a guy not know the difference between consensual sex and rape? It's an important topic; please don't run away from it. If you can articulate on how this happens, then maybe we (as a society) can do something about making sure men understand what they're doing in the future. Can't solve a problem if you can't explain it in the first place. Help us solve the problem.
Hey, I definitely might be wrong.

But I don't wanna do this publicly. PM sent.

It's basically just what @halo eighteen (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2850) said, now that I see his post.

[hologram parade]

This sucks. The accuser always gets the benefit of belief but I have to admit I don’t like people going to anonymous twitter accounts instead of through a journalist.



Yeah, it always works out so well for the victim(s), with everyone believing them, and being proactive to help them seek justice. /sarcasm\


A victim should always get the benefit of belief, and this pertains to most of the stories coming out like this, even in the digital age bc someone used a anonymous account to rightfully protect themselves. I mean, why even report anything if you're the victim? Less than 4% of perps will actually spend a day in jail. So many wonder - whats the point of being questioned, disbelieved, blamed, and retraumatized during the reporting process? It could be 100% true, with a corroborated story on multiple news outlets and the victim(s) would still most likely be getting hate mail, and death threats etc.

[Conan The Barbarian]

Well, there goes that new Tool record.

[elevenism]

I think the victim should ABSOLUTELY stay anonymous.
Tool's fan base can be pretty rough.

[Frozen Beach]

Kind of hard to really even feel this accusation is credible when anyone can make an anonymous Twitter account and make such an accusation. In fact, last night in a 4chan thread, people were talking about doing one that accuses Trent. Internet is a dangerous game.

[M1ke]

Fucking hell Maynard too?

I hate it when it's people who I really liked. But I guess that whole thing they say about power corrupting people is too much, even for the ones who made music we liked.

[frankie teardrop]

Kind of hard to really even feel this accusation is credible when anyone can make an anonymous Twitter account and make such an accusation. In fact, last night in a 4chan thread, people were talking about doing one that accuses Trent. Internet is a dangerous game.

I can't hang with this, simply because women are attacked regularly for coming forward with this information. Think about those who posted from their own personal accounts and have been shunned.

The next step(s) would be for journalists to get in touch and verify the story accordingly (looks like there is PLENTY of evidence to trace), but it is generally crummy to doubt the person coming forward simply due to the medium they feel comfortable.

[elevenism]

Kind of hard to really even feel this accusation is credible when anyone can make an anonymous Twitter account and make such an accusation. In fact, last night in a 4chan thread, people were talking about doing one that accuses Trent. Internet is a dangerous game.
The thing is though, I find it VERY believable.

[Sarah K]

wElL hE dIdN't MeAn To RaPe HeR.

Y'all are fucking ridiculous.

[Frozen Beach]

I can't hang with this, simply because women are attacked regularly for coming forward with this information. Think about those who posted from their own personal accounts and have been shunned.

The next step(s) would be for journalists to get in touch and verify the story accordingly (looks like there is PLENTY of evidence to trace), but it is generally crummy to doubt the person coming forward simply due to the medium they feel comfortable.
Sad truth is people, regardless of how they accuse, will be attacked for it because fans will be in strong denial of it. Even the John K accusers were attacked, despite them having one of the best increminating articles.

But yes, this person should reach out to a journalist.

[BRoswell]

The way I see it, I can't say that this person was raped, because I don't know that for a fact, but I can say that they believe they were raped, and that's a serious issue that should be dealt with. That said, unless there's some sort of proof provided by either party, it's going to end up being her word against his, and there isn't much that can be done about that unless this person wants to take him to court.

[botley]

Yup.
Take a look.
It's pretty fucked up. It's women talking about the musicians (not the other way around) and will make you pretty sick.


Yeah, the culture of transactional sex is lurid, it's hard to look at, but before social media, in some respects this type of gossiping and anonymous sharing of data was all that these women had as a means of preparation for attempting to have some intimate contact with their idols. MetalSludge is framing it in an especially headline grabbing, masculine centering "these DIRTY WOMEN compared the size of their CONQUESTS' COCKS" way because that grabs their audience's attention. But if you read the sources from the women themselves, there are notes like "here is how this person likes to play, kinds of kinks they may have, drug issues, etc." as a means of weeding out men who some might consider off limits for various reasons. Understanding and empathising with that is not too difficult, really. And now we have #metoo self-reportage, because there is a transparent, instantaneous platform for telling these stories.

[elevenism]

Yeah, the culture of transactional sex is lurid, it's hard to look at, but before social media, in some respects this type of gossiping and anonymous sharing of data was all that these women had as a means of preparation for attempting to have some intimate contact with their idols. MetalSludge is framing it in an especially headline grabbing, masculine centering "these DIRTY WOMEN compared the size of their CONQUESTS' COCKS" way because that grabs their audience's attention. But if you read the sources from the women themselves, there are notes like "here is how this person likes to play, kinds of kinks they may have, etc." as a means of weeding out men who some might consider off limits for various reasons. Understanding and empathising with that is not too difficult, really. And now we have #metoo self reporting because there is a transparent, instantaneous platform for telling these stories.
Oh, I read the whole thing.
I'm not indicting the women here, @botley (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=469) , I'm just saying it was a lot of stuff i'd probably rather not have known and am trying to forget :p

I wound up there as a result of some rabbit hole or another; I did not decide to click on it because of the title

[elevenism]

Goddamnit y'all.
I'm sorry.

I'm just...fuck. This is just about more than I can take .

I shouldn't be making excuses for him. :(

I just didn't want it to be real.

Please forgive my initial reaction.

[sweeterthan]

Ugh this thread.

I read the twitter account and, yeah. I believe it 100%. Let’s face it. I love his music but maynard has always been a creep. The more apparent it is, the more intolerable he becomes. The last two times I’ve seen his bands, I haven’t seen him at all coz he hides in the back like a coward. Maybe he’s afraid we’ll all see him for what he is.

[Swykk]

I’ll be honest, I believe it because of the overt disregard MJK has for seemingly everyone. His interviews are barely readable/watchable/listenable.

[cdm]

Goddamnit y'all.
I'm sorry.

I'm just...fuck. This is just about more than I can take .

I shouldn't be making excuses for him. :(

I just didn't want it to be real.

Please forgive my initial reaction.

I deleted my reaction to your reaction. I'm glad you had a chance to clarify your thoughts.

[Louie_Cypher]

pretty good watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW6UoIjy5F4
=Louie

[playwithfire]

Dude, you just linked us to a suuuuper long video and didn't contextualize it at all for us.

[cdm]

Seems to be picking up some steam (coverage, that is)...

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/maynard-james-keenan-accused-of-raping-a-fan-in-2000/

[theimage13]

I'd like to post this just as something to ponder.

I will preface by saying, again, that I 100% believe this woman's story. As I generally do.

But...the Red Hen. You know, that restaurant that asked Sarah Sanders to please leave. It currently has over 15,000 reviews on yelp. Most of them negative. Funny thing is, it was a near 5-star restaurant until last week. But the owner did something that got Trump supporters' crusty panties in a twist, and so they took to the internet to post literally tens of thousands of fake reviews, fake photos, etc, online, in order to try to destroy someone. Similar things have happened at other restaurants. And on the other side of the political coin, people have been dumping on the pages of the baker who discriminates against gay couples.

My point is that this is 2018, and America is a dumpster fire. People are more frequently turning to the internet to lie through their teeth to bring down someone they don't like.

So if you see an anonymous person, with no evidence, make an extremely damning claim against a famous person...sadly, there is precedent to be skeptical now. It sucks. It makes it a lot harder to get justice. It makes it a lot harder for victims to find the courage to come forward. It's a huge fucking problem. But unfortunately, it's a real problem now. It's not a hypothetical or a what-if. Yes, mercifully it is still statistically just a fraction of a sliver of cases. But the fraction is, sadly, getting bigger, and that complicates things for everybody.

Again: I believe this person. But please don't jump down anyone's throat and tear them a new asshole for even suggesting that maybe something isn't as it seems on the surface, because deception has pretty much become our country's official standard operating procedure :(

[Halcyon]

I don’t understand why people are so quick to defend MJK. You’ve never met the man. I loved him as a teen, and hes a good vocalist I guess but for the past 10 years I’ve started to realize he’s the epitome of the iamverysmart subreddit and I think he actually tops Billy Corgan in terms of utter contempt for his fans

[ryanmcfly]

I'd like to post this just as something to ponder.

I will preface by saying, again, that I 100% believe this woman's story. As I generally do.

But...the Red Hen. You know, that restaurant that asked Sarah Sanders to please leave. It currently has over 15,000 reviews on yelp. Most of them negative. Funny thing is, it was a near 5-star restaurant until last week. But the owner did something that got Trump supporters' crusty panties in a twist, and so they took to the internet to post literally tens of thousands of fake reviews, fake photos, etc, online, in order to try to destroy someone. Similar things have happened at other restaurants. And on the other side of the political coin, people have been dumping on the pages of the baker who discriminates against gay couples.

My point is that this is 2018, and America is a dumpster fire. People are more frequently turning to the internet to lie through their teeth to bring down someone they don't like.

So if you see an anonymous person, with no evidence, make an extremely damning claim against a famous person...sadly, there is precedent to be skeptical now. It sucks. It makes it a lot harder to get justice. It makes it a lot harder for victims to find the courage to come forward. It's a huge fucking problem. But unfortunately, it's a real problem now. It's not a hypothetical or a what-if. Yes, mercifully it is still statistically just a fraction of a sliver of cases. But the fraction is, sadly, getting bigger, and that complicates things for everybody.

Again: I believe this person. But please don't jump down anyone's throat and tear them a new asshole for even suggesting that maybe something isn't as it seems on the surface, because deception has pretty much become our country's official standard operating procedure :(

Honestly, this summarizes my thoughts better than anything I can come up with.

[playwithfire]

I mean, like, someone alway go "this is awful if it's true, and I want to see how Maynard addresses it" and just... skip over the victim blaming. That's def an option.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

so many of these musicians are being exposed as scumbags....I think the one guy you dont have to worry about being a deranged pervert is Mike Patton because he was the one guy from day 1 who said he would rather jack off to porn than ever deal with a groupie....And how has Anthony Kiedis survived the metoo movement? Not one girl has claimed AK has done anything? That guy spread his seed across the world for over 35 years

[M1ke]

I'm almost to the point of just assuming that every famous person who hasn't been accused of something already probably has done something and just not been called out yet.

[zecho]

If you guys were a jury, you'd convict a man after one half of the opening statements.

[sweeterthan]

If you guys were a jury, you'd convict a man after one half of the opening statements.

That’s not how a jury works. That is a court of law. This discussion is the court of public opinion.

[theimage13]

If you guys were a jury, you'd convict a man after one half of the opening statements.

Oh fuck off. I've served on a jury and done my due diligence. I've put a man behind bars. Which trial did you sit on?

And you might find this hard to understand, but there's a really big difference between people on the internet speculating about things and people in a jury box listening to evidence being presented by a prosecuting attorney and a defense attorney. Mercifully, if we were a jury, we'd understand those rules, just as we understand that we're not in the jury box now. Your local library probably has a book explaining the difference in case you need some clarification.

[Halcyon]

If you guys were a jury, you'd convict a man after one half of the opening statements.

I definitely wouldn’t choose to not believe a potential rape victim just because the potential rapist sang a song I liked, that’s for goddamn sure. Life’s bigger than that.

[Harry Seaward]

I guess my point here is that I know for a fact that people will in fact be invited backstage at the request of someone in power, and for very specific reasons.

This seems to be the one detail in the story that literally nobody in the universe debated.


I wish I didn't believe this story, but I absolutely do. I also wish that she'd felt able to get away from the situation before it escalated, but I do not blame her at all for not being able to. 17 year old girl (young woman) vs 36 year old man with martial arts experience and fame on HIS turf? I absolutely don't blame her for being frozen. This is why I advocate self-defense classes. Maybe it would have helped here. Then again, maybe it wouldn't have. But on top of the #1 way to reduce rape (which is to pound it into mens' heads to NOT FUCKING RAPE PEOPLE), giving women the confidence and skill to fight back is an important thing to do. Again, to be absolutely, positively clear, the woman is never at fault and it's 100% up to guys to not rape in the first place, but unless they magically stop doing it, I encourage people to do what it takes to standing a fighting chance.

I really can't imagine Maynard set out to rape her judging on this story alone. He's a rock star who had sex with a different woman every night. He probably had sex with plenty of chicks who wanted to be doing it but also didn't really get too actively involved in the process.

How much blame can we place on a guy in that position for interpreting a 17 year old girl leaving her boyfriend behind to come meet you, coming onto your tour bus, and getting in your bed as consent? I'm not saying it was consent or that she's to blame for not saying no, but from his point of view there's very little more consent one can give outside of just saying 'let's have sex.' So it seems like a dramatic overreaction to equate this in any way to forcible, active rape - which you're doing by implying that had she said 'no' it still would have kept going to the point where she'd need to physically fight back.

[Halcyon]

How much blame can we place on a guy in that position for interpreting a 17 year old girl leaving her boyfriend behind to come meet you, coming onto your tour bus, and getting in your bed as consent? I'm not saying it was consent or that she's to blame for not saying no, but from his point of view there's very little more consent one can give outside of just saying 'let's have sex.' So it seems like a dramatic overreaction to equate this in any way to forcible, active rape - which you're doing by implying that had she said 'no' it still would have kept going to the point where she'd need to physically fight back.

Her boyfriend wasn’t allowed to come backstage. Just because she came backstage and wanted to hang out with her favorite singer doesn’t mean she was wanting to fuck. Jesus, do you hear yourself?

[Harry Seaward]

Her boyfriend wasn’t allowed to come backstage. Just because she came backstage and wanted to hang out with her favorite singer doesn’t mean she was wanting to fuck. Jesus, do you hear yourself?

Did you read the part where I explicitly said that those actions do not equate to consent?

[telee.kom]

Aren't you guys at least little worried that this is completely anonymous accusation? Literally anyone could've wrote this. I'm not Maynard's fanboy or anything, but maybe hold on to your torches for a little while here.

[Toadflax]

For anyone doubting the story, a (male) friend of mine in high school saw APC in Australia on that tour and claimed that Maynard tried to drug his (female) friend. Same time period, same age of victim. I heard that story years ago and didn't really know what to make of it (i.e. it was plausible, but I didn't have enough details to pass any kind of judgment about its validity). Now I'm sure it's true.

[implanted_microchip]

there's very little more consent one can give outside of just saying 'let's have sex.'

That’s literally what getting consent is — actual agreement to an act. And the idea that a 36 year old man wouldn’t see the million things wrong about this situation (with a 17 year old no less) is so ridiculous. If you’re with a new potential partner you don’t just start doing things to that person without knowing in completely clear and vocal terms that it’s a mutual desire and to do anything less is gross and wrong and proof that the other person’s wants and interests are secondary to you.

This story is of someone luring a 17 year old fan into a private environment where that 17 year old had far less power than tbey did and using that imbalance to rape them. To act like it’s anything less is disgusting. The fact he says he can’t talk about things with her where other people are around is proof he knew what he was doing was wrong and that he needed to be isolated to get away with it.

There are tons of stories of him having sex with fans and it was out in the open and intent was clear. Why would he feel the need to hide his behavior in this case if he didn’t know it wasn’t alright? If you want to say you want to hear more before making up your mind that’s one thing but to view this as true and then still defend it is so wrong. If this is true, he raped a teenager. Rape doesn’t have to involve any more violence than the act itself consists of to count as rape. No one is comparing his behavior to the behavior of someone like BTK, but they are equating his behavior to what it is, which is rape.

[Sarah K]

Gaining consent is the easiest thing in the world if the person you are asking actually wants to fuck you. If you are too immature to open your mouth and ask, you have no business trying to fuck anyone.

[Halcyon]

Gaining consent is the easiest thing in the world if the person you are asking actually wants to fuck you. If you are too immature to open your mouth and ask, you have no business trying to fuck anyone.

But but but if a girl chooses to be around me that must mean she wants to have sex, right?

[Sarah K]

Yeah, basically. The mere existence of women is just implied consent to so many folks.

[theimage13]

This seems to be the one detail in the story that literally nobody in the universe debated.



I really can't imagine Maynard set out to rape her judging on this story alone. He's a rock star who had sex with a different woman every night. He probably had sex with plenty of chicks who wanted to be doing it but also didn't really get too actively involved in the process.

How much blame can we place on a guy in that position for interpreting a 17 year old girl leaving her boyfriend behind to come meet you, coming onto your tour bus, and getting in your bed as consent? I'm not saying it was consent or that she's to blame for not saying no, but from his point of view there's very little more consent one can give outside of just saying 'let's have sex.' So it seems like a dramatic overreaction to equate this in any way to forcible, active rape - which you're doing by implying that had she said 'no' it still would have kept going to the point where she'd need to physically fight back.

Jesus fucking christ. I can't believe I even need to write this.

1) She did not "leave her boyfriend behind". She asked him to come with, and was given the ultimatum "you can meet one of your favorite bands alone or you can not meet them at all". What 17 year old would be like "nah fuck it whatever, I'll stay with this guy instead"?
2) Again, 17 year old girl gets invited by mega-famous artist to see his tour bus - something that all of her friends in high school (remember, this is a fucking HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT we're talking about) will love to hear about the next day. If Marilyn Manson or Trent Reznor or whoever asked you on his bus, would you say no as a 17 year old boy? No? Well then why the fuck should she say no? Oh, right...we're blaming the victim here by insinuating that "going on the bus, she should have known what was going to happen". Fuck off with that shit.
3) I'm 100% implying that he might have still gone had she been able to meekly put out some sort of "no", but the fact that she was basically frozen and silent and unsure of what to do tells me that she was no consenting, so why didn't it tell Maynard the same thing?
4) "He had sex with a different woman every night". So do lots of guys on Tinder. But those women CONSENT to it. By your own phrasing, maybe he forced himself on some reluctant high school kid every night. That's supposed to make me feel BETTER about this?

Wow. Your username is startlingly apt.

[JessicaSarahS]

Her boyfriend wasn’t allowed to come backstage. Just because she came backstage and wanted to hang out with her favorite singer doesn’t mean she was wanting to fuck. Jesus, do you hear yourself?

This. Not everyone wants to go backstage to hook up. If a guy is given a pass, is he expected to put out, too?

[elevenism]

i know i've said this before, but the "sorry, we're one pass short" bullshit: Type O Negative tried to do this with my girlfriend and her best friend at a Dallas show in 96.
Peter came and talked to us before the show started. It was really badass to meet him. Then, they sent us DRINKS. (we were sixteen.)
When the show was over, a heavy set woman (no shit) came and told us that Peter wanted us to come and hang out with him backstage because we were more "into it" than the rest of the crowd. But wouldn't you know it, they didn't have enough passes for us to go TOGETHER. In fact, oddly enough, GEE WILIKERS, they were one pass short! (Nevermind the fact that this venue was a fucking BAR that held MAYBE 1200 people sold out, which it wasn't, and I've never needed physical passes to go backstage at friends' shows at the same venue like, say, 97's or Edie Brickell. this seriously made me feel like the passes were an utter manipulation,) they had a great idea! Ladies first. the girls would go back for awhile and then i could go.

I knew what the fuck was going on and so did my girl's bff (who liked the idea,) but my GF was oblivious and told me i was stupid for thinking that there was anything sexual going on.

Thank GOD i was able to talk them out of going backstage. They were fucking SIXTEEN years old.

[Harry Seaward]

Are you guys going to just keep arguing with points I didn't make based on how you think I feel? Like I get it that you guys spend a lot of time repeating this shit to dumbasses. I understand the feeling of making a point 10,000,000 times because you keep encountering the same argument over and over and over to the point that you can just copy and paste your standard response. But don't fall into the trap of assuming a person's whole identity just because they're saying something that can be seen as vaguely in line with what aforementioned dumbasses say. Generally I choose my words pretty carefully so if I was defending Maynard or thought her consent was implied or thought that "it was almost 20 years ago and not even rape so who cares", I would just say it.

Otherwise can we have a discussion where we don't immediately assume the absolute worst of the other based on assuming we know how the other person feels despite it being a direct contradiction of what they're saying?


1) She did not "leave her boyfriend behind". She asked him to come with, and was given the ultimatum "you can meet one of your favorite bands alone or you can not meet them at all". What 17 year old would be like "nah fuck it whatever, I'll stay with this guy instead"?
2) Again, 17 year old girl gets invited by mega-famous artist to see his tour bus - something that all of her friends in high school (remember, this is a fucking HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT we're talking about) will love to hear about the next day. If Marilyn Manson or Trent Reznor or whoever asked you on his bus, would you say no as a 17 year old boy? No? Well then why the fuck should she say no? Oh, right...we're blaming the victim here by insinuating that "going on the bus, she should have known what was going to happen". Fuck off with that shit.

I didn't say "she should have known what was going to happen." I didn't say "she should have said no." I didn't say "I don't see the point in getting enthusiastic consent." I didn't say "it wasn't rape." I gave reasons for why it's entirely possible he didn't realize what he was doing.

Maybe the issue here is that you guys don't realize that some of us can think "he didn't realize it was rape" and "it was rape" are both true. Saying the first doesn't mean somebody thinks "it wasn't rape."


3) I'm 100% implying that he might have still gone had she been able to meekly put out some sort of "no", but the fact that she was basically frozen and silent and unsure of what to do tells me that she was no consenting, so why didn't it tell Maynard the same thing?

It probably should have.


4) "He had sex with a different woman every night". So do lots of guys on Tinder. But those women CONSENT to it. By your own phrasing, maybe he forced himself on some reluctant high school kid every night. That's supposed to make me feel BETTER about this?

Well the sentence you quoted was setting up the point being made in the sentence after it. ("He probably had sex with plenty of chicks who wanted to be doing it but also didn't really get too actively involved in the process.")

So I'm not really going to defend a point I wasn't making and don't agree with. The entirety of my point was that there are different levels of severity to something like a personal crime and they should be responded to differently. Calling your wife a 'bitch' in a heated argument in 30 years and beating the shit out of her for 30 years are both 'abuse' but I can't imagine anybody would respond to them the same way. Is it seriously that backwards to say that the severity of a crime should inform the response?

[theimage13]

I didn't say "she should have known what was going to happen." I didn't say "she should have said no." I didn't say "I don't see the point in getting enthusiastic consent." I didn't say "it wasn't rape." I gave reasons for why it's entirely possible he didn't realize what he was doing.

Ummm...


How much blame can we place on a guy in that position for interpreting a 17 year old girl leaving her boyfriend behind to come meet you, coming onto your tour bus, and getting in your bed as consent?

I don't see any of those things indicating consent.

1) As already stated: her boyfriend was not "left". He wasn't invited. She had to make a choice between meeting an idol or hanging out with the guy she'd spend the rest of the night with anyway. What that indicates is a desire to meet Maynard, not a desire to fuck Maynard. This should never be construed as consent.
2) That's an artist's home. So if your female friend comes over to your house / apartment, you're saying you would interpret that as consent to have sex with you?
3) The back lounge on a bus is just a place where people can watch a movie. Maybe other people were in the front lounge watching that TV. Maybe that one didn't have a working DVD player (trust me, lots of buses have broken crap on them). Maybe that DVR was the one that had his movies recorded on it. But that's moot, because
4) Unless she provided clear consent, there should be tornado sirens blaring in your head that putting your penis inside another person is not a welcome move.

So I get what you're saying. You hope your hero was too stupid to realize he was raping someone. But not one single thing you listed in his defense would do that because he still didn't have consent, and literally nothing that you listed should have possibly been taken as such by any rational and intelligent man. And this is Maynard we're talking about. He's goddamn intelligent.

Also, I agree with one thing you said: different crimes should be treated differently by severity. But in the analogy of "calling your wife a bitch once in 30 years" vs "beating her for 30 years", the one where "oops, I shoved my unprotected dick in you when you didn't want me to" falls on the lower scale along with calling someone a bad name once in three decades? Jesus man, what type of sexual assault is on the higher end of the spectrum then?

[Halcyon]

Imagine thinking that an adult male (who apparently has an IQ of 180 or whatever the Tool fan knuckledraggers believe) is too stupid to know if he’s raping someone. “I raped her by accident, judge!” is a bulletproof defense

[cdm]

Maybe the issue here is that you guys don't realize that some of us can think "he didn't realize it was rape" and "it was rape" are both true. Saying the first doesn't mean somebody thinks "it wasn't rape."


This is some gross shit.

jfc. No wonder women stay quiet for fucking decades.

[Harry Seaward]

I don't see any of those things indicating consent.

Once again, I didn't say they did. I said that it's not a completely insane, alien idea to imagine that somebody could interpret them that way.


1) As already stated: her boyfriend was not "left". He wasn't invited. She had to make a choice between meeting an idol or hanging out with the guy she'd spend the rest of the night with anyway. What that indicates is a desire to meet Maynard, not a desire to fuck Maynard. This should never be construed as consent.
2) That's an artist's home. So if your female friend comes over to your house / apartment, you're saying you would interpret that as consent to have sex with you?
3) The back lounge on a bus is just a place where people can watch a movie. Maybe other people were in the front lounge watching that TV. Maybe that one didn't have a working DVD player (trust me, lots of buses have broken crap on them). Maybe that DVR was the one that had his movies recorded on it. But that's moot, because

Okay, great. I'm not Maynard. Those points need to be directed at him, not me. Once again, I wasn't explaining that I thought she gave consent. I was listing reasons why, on 99.99% of days, those actions happened to be indicative of consent. If you want to think MJK is a moron for interpreting that as consent, go ahead. But I think it's unfair to jump to the conclusion that he was actively, knowingly raping somebody based on the information available.


4) Unless she provided clear consent, there should be tornado sirens blaring in your head that putting your penis inside another person is not a welcome move.

Okay, so we agree.


So I get what you're saying. You hope your hero was too stupid to realize he was raping someone. But not one single thing you listed in his defense would do that because he still didn't have consent, and literally nothing that you listed should have possibly been taken as such by any rational and intelligent man. And this is Maynard we're talking about. He's goddamn intelligent.

So we're allowed to factor in the guy's intelligence? Would this situation be less severe if the guy in question was a complete moron? If his intelligence plays a factor in how a resonse is formulated, then why can't social/cultural norms or personal experience?

It sounds like you guys are saying "Okay, maybe he didn't realize it was rape because he could mayyyybe, possibly interpret that stuff as consent - if he was a moron." which is seriously only a hair's width away from my point of "Okay, maybe he didn't realize it was rape because he could mayyyybe, possibly interpret that stuff as consent - if he lived a life where, taking into account the very different social/cultural norms at the time, that same scenario probably did signify consent a thousand times before."


But in the analogy of "calling your wife a bitch once in 30 years" vs "beating her for 30 years", the one where "oops, I shoved my unprotected dick in you when you didn't want me to" falls on the lower scale along with calling someone a bad name once in three decades? Jesus man, what type of sexual assault is on the higher end of the spectrum then?

I can't tell if you're purposely misrepresenting what I said or what. Let's try that again but this time it's my actual point: "having sex with somebody you didn't realize didn't want it" should warrant a less severe response than "forcibly, violently raping somebody."


Imagine thinking that an adult male (who apparently has an IQ of 180 or whatever the Tool fan knuckledraggers believe) is too stupid to know if he’s raping someone. “I raped her by accident, judge!” is a bulletproof defense

I think I'm smarter than Maynard. I like the way he sings. That's where our relationship begins and ends. I think he's pretentious and don't take heed with anything he says as a *person. I don't care what his lyrics mean, I interpret lyrics in a way personal to me. The artist's intent doesn't factor into it.


This is some gross shit.

jfc. No wonder women stay quiet for fucking decades.

Women don't report rape because I posting on a message board explaining that I believe some chick's story about being raped?

Christ, it's no wonder why so many impressionable younger people are taking up with the alt-right crowd lately. It's absolutely astounding what unabashed pricks you guys are being to somebody (who, in most other contexts, could be described as a relatively radical leftist) who agrees with you on literally almost every single detail and angle of this.

But boy, that one minor subdetail of a difference of opinion definitely means I'm a toxic, rape supporting, knuckle-dragging Maynard junkie who exemplifies the reason women stay quiet about rape. I'm sure glad we could all remain civil and mature for five minutes.

[Sarah K]

Imagine being so entitled that you think you get to dictate people's responses to their personal trauma, and think that there are certain forms of rape that aren't as big of a deal as others.

Wheeeeew.

[Krazy]

I don’t know if it’s 100% fact, somewhere in between, or if it didn’t happen at all. I do wanna hear what MJK has to say about it though before burning the guy at the stake though. It’s a new Twitter account and no one knows what happened yet (outside of two persons of course).

is he a bit odd? Yes. Does he come off as an asshole often? Yep. That doesn’t automatically make him a rapist because a Twitter account says so.

If it’s true then the guys career is over and deservedly so and then fuck him. If it’s not a lot of people on social media, and here, will have some apologizing to do.

Its ok to go have a gray area opinion on this at the moment. People just simply don’t know what happened.

[cdm]

I can't tell if you're purposely misrepresenting what I said or what. Let's try that again but this time it's my actual point: "having sex with somebody you didn't realize didn't want it" should warrant a less severe response than "forcibly, violently raping somebody."

You've said it twice now. “Having sex with someone you didn’t realize didn’t want it”

For someone who who claims to be not supporting rape you sure as hell are repeating excuses why he probably accidentally (allegedly) raped.

[Harry Seaward]

Imagine being so entitled that you think you get to dictate people's responses to their personal trauma, and think that there are certain forms of rape that aren't as big of a deal as others.

Wheeeeew.

Where the fuck did I say this woman should have acted differently in any way literally ever? Did I say "She should forgive Maynard?" Did I say "She should get over it?" Where is this shit coming from, are my messages being intercepted by a bot who changes them all to say the exact opposite of what I typed? I guess I'll chalk this specific example up to ambiguous phrasing on my end. I think the public's response should factor in the severity of the crime. I said absolutely nothing whatsoever about how I think this woman should have acted at the time or any time after.

But I guess if you want to be purposely obstinate and pretend that "different crimes have different severity" is the same thing as "certain forms of rape aren't as big of a deal as others" then I guess this is a dead end.

I might as well bow out of this conversation anyway since I'm not entirely sure how many more ways I can repeat this same thing only to be continually called a moron by people who can't seem to parse basic English sentences.

Here, I'll sum up the next several rounds of how the conversation would have went had it kept going:

Me: "I think [Y]."

You guys: "You seriously think [X]? Wow fucking moron"

Me: "Wait, what? I did not say [X] and I do not believe [X]. I'm trying to say [Y]."

You guys: "Fuck off, people who believe [X] are scum"

Fun.

[Sarah K]

The first part of that comment was re: people saying what the victim "should" or "should not" do going forward. Not everything is about you.

The classifying different rapes was aimed at you, though.

[tony.parente]

I’ve never experienced sexual abuse of any kind so I am in no fucking place to ever tell someone who has experienced it how to act. I can’t even fathom how abuse like that could affect someone, and mother fuck anyone who thinks they should be putting forth any suggestions on how someone should come forth.

What the fuck guys.

[playwithfire]

I think "he didn't realize it was rape" and it still being rape is a valid point. I feel like acknowledging that this shit is normalized if not even supported by society is an important part of these conversations if we want to enact change. Having sex with a woman who is non-responsive, but conscious, is historically super normalized... like it is SO normalized, and not contextualized as rape. We have to change the conversation to it is rape, and they have to account for that.

These conversations we have around "silence isn't consent" were NOT COMMON CONVERSATIONS 16 YEARS AGO. The survivor is even acknowledging that. None of that makes it excusable or acceptable, and it makes it essential that we hold Maynard accountable. And obviously it was still clearly wrong. Of course it was. But like, think of those studies where they ask men if they would rape someone but as long as they don't use the word "rape" men will often say they would.


How much blame can we place on a guy in that position for interpreting a 17 year old girl leaving her boyfriend behind to come meet you, coming onto your tour bus, and getting in your bed as consent? I'm not saying it was consent or that she's to blame for not saying no, but from his point of view there's very little more consent one can give outside of just saying 'let's have sex.' So it seems like a dramatic overreaction to equate this in any way to forcible, active rape - which you're doing by implying that had she said 'no' it still would have kept going to the point where she'd need to physically fight back.

We should place all of the blame on him. He should publicly account for his actions and attempt to make this right. Like, the dude had to physically undress her and position her into the missionary position because she wasn't moving. It was active rape. He may very well have thought it was "different" and that is exactly why him being held accountable is essential. It's why how he responds now will be so telling.

[playwithfire]

4) "He had sex with a different woman every night". So do lots of guys on Tinder. But those women CONSENT to it.

Do they?


And how has Anthony Kiedis survived the metoo movement?

I'm also surprised more shit hasn't come out about him, I think there's maybe some whispered stuff about them and there was this https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/former-music-exec-says-she-was-sexually-harassed-by-2-of-the-red-hot-chili-peppers_us_571e1ac5e4b0d4d3f723ca21

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Do they?



I'm also surprised more shit hasn't come out about him, I think there's maybe some whispered stuff about them and there was this https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/former-music-exec-says-she-was-sexually-harassed-by-2-of-the-red-hot-chili-peppers_us_571e1ac5e4b0d4d3f723ca21

Yeah I remember that story....They also got sued one time back in the day for sexual harassment at some MTV spring break thing as well.....The clock is ticking Anthony.....

[sinspots]

"I thought she consented" is a defense in the minority of states where rape is a specific intent crime. However, in the majority of states, it appears to be a general intent crime, so if he was reckless in assuming she consented he would still be on the hook in those states. It's been a long time since I read criminal law though so could be mistaken. I am just glad I am not single now. Back when I was single, it sure would have seemed weird to me to verbally discuss consent. We just...got into it and proceeded with the doing the deed. The kissing and foreplay etc. was enough to imply consent...do people not do that anymore? If so, that's sort of sad for intimacy (then again I'm old and tinder culture was before my time).

[Pillfred]

God damn...

As for this ...
"How much blame can we place on a guy in that position for interpreting a 17 year old girl leaving her boyfriend behind to come meet you, coming onto your tour bus, and getting in your bed as consent? I'm not saying it was consent or that she's to blame for not saying no, but from his point of view there's very little more consent one can give outside of just saying 'let's have sex.' So it seems like a dramatic overreaction to equate this in any way to forcible, active rape - which you're doing by implying that had she said 'no' it still would have kept going to the point where she'd need to physically fight back."

Having recently been a 36 year old adult male myself you just don't go trying to fuck 17 year old's. You just don't do it.

[playwithfire]

If so, that's sort of sad for intimacy

Well like, how well you know someone informs how you approach that, right? I'm obviously not going "what do you like/what don't you like" before sex with people I've been sleeping with for years, but I'll absolutely ask a new partner that.

I think it's an emotional maturity thing. If someone asking "can I go down on you" is a boner killer like... I don't even know.

[sinspots]

Well like, how well you know someone informs how you approach that, right? I'm obviously not going "what do you like/what don't you like" before sex with people I've been sleeping with for years, but I'll absolutely ask a new partner that.

I think it's an emotional maturity thing. If someone asking "can I go down on you" is a boner killer like... I don't even know.

Guess it's hard for me to relate as I didn't have those discussions (even with a new partner) back in the late 80s/early 90s. I got married at 20, so I've been married longer than I have not been married, and didn't have a long single life before (and there was no tinder then). As I said, glad I am not single nowadays (sounds so difficult and risky)!

[playwithfire]

I definitely think sometimes how like... we all are learning these collective lessons as a society and getting tools for interaction that previous generations might not have had. (For example, it's broadly understood that going "Hey, we need to talk later." to someone and giving them no other context is probably going to generate anxiety and likely not a good move, and did we collectively get that 30 years ago?)

I think it's "riskier" and more difficult in some ways and in others, it isn't. There's more accountability, but there's also more vocabulary and information available to process experiences that we used to not have the words or common understanding to address. Like, shitty upsetting confusing experiences that people wouldn't be able to parse as having been not their fault. Because people just didn't talk about it. Fwiw, I think once someone learns some basic stuff, it's pretty easy, but there's definitely a lot of education that needs to occur.

[JessicaSarahS]

4) "He had sex with a different woman every night". So do lots of guys on Tinder. But those women CONSENT to it.

Eh, Tinder date rape is still a thing, unfortunately. Same ol’ game, different packaging. I would even venture to say that there’s even more pressure with Tinder to perform outright and bypass any semblance of dating or discourse— or receive unsolicited dick pix aplenty.

[loopcloses]

The age gap, I think, is what makes the story the most damning for MJK. I could at least sorta appreciate the perspective of his actions existing in a murky gray area given the time period and some other factors if he had been some drugged out twenty four year old rockstar, but a thirty six year old man with a 17 year old in that situation, there is no excuse, a grown-ass reasonably smart dude is gonna know what he's doing is at the very least borderline rapey, and I'm not really up to stand up for someone who's willing to to do something they feel is borderline rapey.

Having said that, this being a story on news publications feels sideways to me too. There's just no evidence that this isn't some 4chan jackass, let alone an actual rape survivor. I'm not saying the story isn't true or saying the alleged survivor is wrong for sharing the story this way, just that as of now there is no evidence that the accuser is a real person, and I think that's a problem if there are major publications running the story. Ideally, a credible journalist would reach out to her and do some investigative work to assess the legitimacy of the story or at least confirm the identity of the accuser, then run an article with the findings (and the accuser's identity still anonymous). If they can do that, it becomes a big legitimate story, instead of a bunch of damaging clickbait about something that may or may not be true. Like how those Louis CK rumors were so easy to ignore for years because nobody credible would put their name on it, on top of a bunch of details being wrong.

Regardless of whether this happened or not, I think it's established beyond reasonable doubt that Maynard was at least a pretty big creep back in the day. I don't care how common it was, having your employees go and seek out young ladies to fuck you is skeevy as hell. Not to say that it makes you a bad person forever to partake in it, but it's something I'd hope a decent person would regret after getting out of that mindset.

[theimage13]

Okay, since I've been called out on this by multiple people: maybe I'm wrong about Tinder. I've never used it. I was under the impression that it was literally an app where both parties are basically going "yeah...I'd have sex with them" and only agree to meet up if that's what they're looking for. Perhaps I understood that wrong. My bad, y'all.

[Lerxto]

1. "We have to train men to think rape is unthinkable as cannibalism."

No. We have to train mankind to think rape is unthinkable. I'm sick of this shit.
Maybe, I know someone who's raped by a woman. Maybe that someone didn't get as much attention as he deserved.
I really despise this hatred, and usual hostility against men when it comes to this topic.


2. "It's not true. OK, so I'm just another guy on the internet, but I've had the privilege of getting backstage on more than a few separate occasions for both Tool & APC. I am somewhat well known taper, been to 103 Tool shows, and 50+ APC shows, 20+ Pusicfer shows. I've got the passes to prove it, I was even given one of the Maynard harem passes because they were out of the standard ones. "I also have had 2 female friends (age 20 & 23 at the time) pass muster and get to sleep with Maynard and have gotten all the details. One ended up being a repeat contact because she lived in LA and could participate with him there when off tour.
"1. First off, there is and was no blonde heavy set woman who acted as his handler for this. Women do receive special passes, but they were handed out from his all male security staff.
"2. The security staff checks IDs. If you are not of age, you do not get to go backstage. 17, though 'legal' in some states, does not make the cut. Full stop.
"3. Passes for Maynard are different than the normal backstage pass for the show. A couple examples I can think of (and one I own that I received personally when they were out of normal ones) has a collage of women in KISS makeup sucking dick or other sexual acts. An APC one had a picture of Maynard in Roman garb that said 'Have you serviced your gladiator today?' or something similar. There are no illusions about what you are there for.
"4. All backstage people are brought backstage to 1 or 2 rooms. Sometimes the Maynard groupies are brought to a separate room. It's never 1 woman alone. The smallest group I saw was 5 or 6 women, but could be up to 20. Maynard makes an appearance in the room, might make some chitchat, and then leaves. His security staff will then approach whichever 1 or 2 women that Maynard has selected for the night and tell them that Maynard would like them to come back to the bus or the hotel for the night.
"5. Both experiences recounted to me, from two women who do not know each other, Maynard was caring, slow and gentle. There was no pressure. He is interested in anal as you would assume, but did not with the one because she never had. Again, no pressure. This act ended up happening later when she was one of his regulars in LA.
"6. After the act, both women had nothing but good things to say about him and about the security staff (Making sure they were OK to leave the area and had some transportation as they left).
"So you take those 2 accounts, and also what I saw happen in general with the process other times backstage, make the accusers account incredibly hard to believe. For the guy down below in the thread who's girlfriend was weirded out for not letting her BF backstage with her, I hope you understand by now that Maynard does not and will not meet normal Tool fans. Never.
"Has he appeared at any of the Tool clinics? No. Has he ever appeared at any of the APC VIP events? No. I only met him once backstage and he was not thrilled with my concert total. Actually told me that I shouldn't see them that many times. The meeting only happened because I was in with a group of family for another person on the crew.
"I haven't been backstage since he's been married, so I don't know if his groupie whoring has continued. I don't think he should be demonized for this behavior. Yeah it sucks that he doesn't want to meet the casual fan to have them gush over his music, but it doesn't make me want to listen to them less."


3. What if Maynard didn't do it? What if she's telling a lie?

Then you guys are the offender. Everybody should be given the benefit of the doubt. This is a personal matter happened 17 years ago.
It would be hard for her to prove this happened. I know that.
It would be even harder for Maynard to disprove it.


I don't mean to offend anyone by writing this post. But if you are offended, I offer my apology.
But after reading some of the comments I felt I need to share my thought here too.

[botley]

1. "We have to train men to think rape is unthinkable as cannibalism."

No. We have to train mankind to think rape is unthinkable. I'm sick of this shit.
Maybe, I know someone who's raped by a woman. Maybe that someone didn't get as much attention as he deserved.
I really despise this hatred, and usual hostility against men when it comes to this topic.


2. "It's not true. OK, so I'm just another guy on the internet, but I've had the privilege of getting backstage on more than a few separate occasions for both Tool & APC. I am somewhat well known taper, been to 103 Tool shows, and 50+ APC shows, 20+ Pusicfer shows. I've got the passes to prove it, I was even given one of the Maynard harem passes because they were out of the standard ones. "I also have had 2 female friends (age 20 & 23 at the time) pass muster and get to sleep with Maynard and have gotten all the details. One ended up being a repeat contact because she lived in LA and could participate with him there when off tour.
"1. First off, there is and was no blonde heavy set woman who acted as his handler for this. Women do receive special passes, but they were handed out from his all male security staff.
"2. The security staff checks IDs. If you are not of age, you do not get to go backstage. 17, though 'legal' in some states, does not make the cut. Full stop.
"3. Passes for Maynard are different than the normal backstage pass for the show. A couple examples I can think of (and one I own that I received personally when they were out of normal ones) has a collage of women in KISS makeup sucking dick or other sexual acts. An APC one had a picture of Maynard in Roman garb that said 'Have you serviced your gladiator today?' or something similar. There are no illusions about what you are there for.
"4. All backstage people are brought backstage to 1 or 2 rooms. Sometimes the Maynard groupies are brought to a separate room. It's never 1 woman alone. The smallest group I saw was 5 or 6 women, but could be up to 20. Maynard makes an appearance in the room, might make some chitchat, and then leaves. His security staff will then approach whichever 1 or 2 women that Maynard has selected for the night and tell them that Maynard would like them to come back to the bus or the hotel for the night.
"5. Both experiences recounted to me, from two women who do not know each other, Maynard was caring, slow and gentle. There was no pressure. He is interested in anal as you would assume, but did not with the one because she never had. Again, no pressure. This act ended up happening later when she was one of his regulars in LA.
"6. After the act, both women had nothing but good things to say about him and about the security staff (Making sure they were OK to leave the area and had some transportation as they left).
"So you take those 2 accounts, and also what I saw happen in general with the process other times backstage, make the accusers account incredibly hard to believe. For the guy down below in the thread who's girlfriend was weirded out for not letting her BF backstage with her, I hope you understand by now that Maynard does not and will not meet normal Tool fans. Never.
"Has he appeared at any of the Tool clinics? No. Has he ever appeared at any of the APC VIP events? No. I only met him once backstage and he was not thrilled with my concert total. Actually told me that I shouldn't see them that many times. The meeting only happened because I was in with a group of family for another person on the crew.
"I haven't been backstage since he's been married, so I don't know if his groupie whoring has continued. I don't think he should be demonized for this behavior. Yeah it sucks that he doesn't want to meet the casual fan to have them gush over his music, but it doesn't make me want to listen to them less."


3. What if Maynard didn't do it? What if she's telling a lie?

Then you guys are the offender. Everybody should be given the benefit of the doubt. This is a personal matter happened 17 years ago.
It would be hard for her to prove this happened. I know that.
It would be even harder for Maynard to disprove it.


I don't mean to offend anyone by writing this post. But if you are offended, I offer my apology.
But after reading some of the comments I felt I need to share my thought here too.

Holy shit everything is awful

[sweeterthan]

Holy shit everything is awful

This is why I hate this thread. We’ve gone from “she should’ve known” to “men get raped too”. What’s next? “Why didn’t she leave?” Shitty argument greatest hits!

[playwithfire]

Okay, since I've been called out on this by multiple people: maybe I'm wrong about Tinder. I've never used it. I was under the impression that it was literally an app where both parties are basically going "yeah...I'd have sex with them" and only agree to meet up if that's what they're looking for. Perhaps I understood that wrong. My bad, y'all.

I just think treating coercive sex and rape as anything other than commonplace and something that occurs in pretty much any environment is a bad argument. Like, it's everywhere, so bringing up something like Tinder as a comparison is ineffective. I realize you aren't saying "Tinder, where rape never happens" but like coercion and assault is part and parcel for a society where consent isn't taught effectively and accountability rarely exists.

[playwithfire]

I really despise this hatred, and usual hostility against men when it comes to this topic.

But like, you get that men are socialized in society differently from women, right? Like, you get that men typically commit most rapes? And that consent is taught poorly, and men are most impacted by that from the perspective of being the sexual aggressor? Statements like that don't carry an implicit dismissal of women being capable of abuse. But, surely you see a systemic problem with men committing the vast majority of rapes? It saddens me that acknowledging that is viewed as negative.

I think 2. was just you quoting another heavily bullet-pointed post someone else made but let me know if I missed something. I've already seen that post elsewhere.


What if Maynard didn't do it? What if she's telling a lie?

It's possible. But, her story is believable and we haven't had a response yet from him.


This is a personal matter happened 17 years ago.

If it actually happened, the only person with a right to privacy is her.


It would be hard for her to prove this happened. I know that.
It would be even harder for Maynard to disprove it.

Which is why seeing how he addresses it is going to be important.

[Lerxto]

But like, you get that men are socialized in society differently from women, right? Like, you get that men typically commit most rapes? And that consent is taught poorly, and men are most impacted by that from the perspective of being the sexual aggressor? Statements like that don't carry an implicit dismissal of women being capable of abuse. But, surely you see a systemic problem with men committing the vast majority of rapes? It saddens me that acknowledging that is viewed as negative.
Men typically committing rapes CANNOT be justified for women, or men in that matter to blame men in general when it comes to rape.
I agree that statement can be interpreted to target mankind as a whole. Poor choice of words.


If it actually happened, the only person with a right to privacy is her.
Which is why seeing how he addresses it is going to be important.
IF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. You guys still don't know if this thing even happened. Or if it's true.
No matter how her side of the story is "believable", wait until you hear his side of the story too. If he says yes he did it, you can point the blame at him then. Not now.

[Lerxto]

This is why I hate this thread. We’ve gone from “she should’ve known” to “men get raped too”. What’s next? “Why didn’t she leave?” Shitty argument greatest hits!
You're missing the point.
I was not talking about this incident. I was talking about sexual assault claims in general.
And yes, men get raped too. Men, in general, should not be blamed for sexual assault. Only the one who committed a crime should be blamed.
I'm personally shocked to see I get facepalmed this much by saying this. The world's gone mad.

[Sarah K]

Men, in general, should not be blamed for sexual assault. Only the one who committed a crime should be blamed.


Which, the majority of the time, is men.

Yes, absolutely anyone can be a rapist, and anyone can become the victim of rape. But the vast majority of the time, it is men carrying it out, regardless of the gender identity of the victim. Which is why there is so much focus on men calling out other men on their bullshit when it comes to this. That is typically the only way that stances will be reevaluated, because most men simply will not listen to women on this topic, will dismiss it, will make excuses, etc. Men need to do better. Not only with their own consent practices, but helping other men in that area, as well.

[Lerxto]

Which, the majority of the time, is men.

Yes, absolutely anyone can be a rapist, and anyone can become the victim of rape. But the vast majority of the time, it is men carrying it out, regardless of the gender identity of the victim. Which is why there is so much focus on men calling out other men on their bullshit when it comes to this. That is typically the only way that stances will be reevaluated, because most men simply will not listen to women on this topic, will dismiss it, will make excuses, etc. Men need to do better. Not only with their own consent practices, but helping other men in that area, as well.
I think of it as a simple cause and effect. Did they commit rape because they were men? I believe that's not the usual case.
And most men listen to the victim. You're still choosing the word women - as a victim, and men - as an offender. That's a wrongdoing, even if the message you're trying to deliver is a benevolent one.
Most offenders do not listen to the victims. People who have common sense, will pay due attention to it.
Have some faith in people. Most men will not do as you say so. Most men support the victims. Most people support the victims.

[Sarah K]

To ignore that this is a heavily gendered issue is completely bizarre.

[theimage13]

I think of it as a simple cause and effect. Did they commit rape because they were men? I believe that's not the usual case.
And most men listen to the victim. You're still choosing the word women - as a victim, and men - as an offender. That's a wrongdoing, even if the message you're trying to deliver is a benevolent one.
Most offenders do not listen to the victims. People who have common sense, will pay due attention to it.
Have some faith in people. Most men will not do as you say so. Most men support the victims. Most people support the victims.

You....you don't think that men commit rape because they're men?

Holy cow. Rape is sexual. Meaning it's driven by the MAN'S desire to shove his fetid, useless cock into a woman. How could you possibly argue that their sex has nothing to do with why they rape someone when it is literally THE reason they do it?

[Lerxto]

To ignore that this is a heavily gendered issue is completely bizarre.
This is not a gendered issue at all. A gendered issue is, for example, where there is only men's toilet and no women's toilet in a building. And I'm not joking.
Domestic abuse is not a gendered issue. Nothing truly is.
Making these problems a gendered issue will cause nothing but backlash from the innocent, vast majority of, as you say, "men".
Because they are innocent. They did nothing wrong. Why do you blame them and make them feel sorry for what they didn't do?

Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are.

[Lerxto]

You....you don't think that men commit rape because they're men?

Holy cow. Rape is sexual. Meaning it's driven by the MAN'S desire to shove his fetid, useless cock into a woman. How could you possibly argue that their sex has nothing to do with why they rape someone when it is literally THE reason they do it?
Wow. I don't even know where to start.
I'll begin with saying that your statement is false. And by saying "fetid, useless cock into a woman" you are offending a lot more people than anyone else who's being mentioned here.
Sex is also sexual. Are you saying that sex is only driven by the man's desire to fuck a woman? Not vice versa? From my experience it's not.

[eachpassingphase]

I'll be really interested to hear if/how Maynard addresses this.

One thing that I think is important for fans to realize is that we have this tendency to create an image in our head of what sort of human being our "idol" is. None of us actually know what sort of man MJK is other than that he is a talented artist but past that: we have no clue. He might be a tenderhearted man who treats others with respect - or he might be a vicious predator. We have no idea. We have no idea about ANY of the artists we admire. I see a lot of MJK fans online talking about how they just don't see him being able to do that because of these personality traits that they have projected onto a man they don't even know. I've been a fan of Maynard's work for a long time and his fanbase has always acted like he's a Grammaton Cleric or some shit.

Trent Reznor has talked about this a bit in interviews, how musicians who don't reveal a ton about themselves allow their fanbase to develop wild ideas about who they are and it generates mystery and enigma among the fans. I see this play out in a really extreme way among Maynard's fans. They know nothing about him, so they let their minds run wild with what sort of man he is. And the man they've built up in their heads is too far above something as basic and stupid as rape. But the truth is, humans are capable of all sorts of heinous shit no matter how smart or disciplined or creative they may be. MJK is no exception. I think it's really dangerous to act like certain people, better kinds of people aren't capable of hurting other humans.

Anyway, obviously I hope it's not true for both her sake and his sake but the whole "I don't think he's capable" stuff that I keep seeing across the various corners of the internet is really dangerous.

[sweeterthan]

You're missing the point.
I was not talking about this incident. I was talking about sexual assault claims in general.
And yes, men get raped too. Men, in general, should not be blamed for sexual assault. Only the one who committed a crime should be blamed.
I'm personally shocked to see I get facepalmed this much by saying this. The world's gone mad.
The patriarchy and rape culture were established by men. There’s no debate there.

[Harry Seaward]

I guess I'll jump back in because of how much I value my time. And it's hard to think that this is a topic that's 'finished' and can't be discussed further.


I’ve never experienced sexual abuse of any kind so I am in no fucking place to ever tell someone who has experienced it how to act. I can’t even fathom how abuse like that could affect someone, and mother fuck anyone who thinks they should be putting forth any suggestions on how someone should come forth.

I think that's misrepresenting the heart of what those people actually mean, at least the ones who are criticizing the use of an anonymous Twitter account for this sort of thing. I think it's less that they're criticizing a rape victim's actions in opening up about their experience and more about the idea that a person's career can be seriously damaged by something with 0 possible chance at verification. They're not coming at it from a "she's lying" angle, they're coming at it from a "this could just as likely be some scorned weirdo who Maynard didn't wave at on the street once."

I understand the reasons why somebody might not want to come forward publicly especially when it involves somebody in the form of art that is known to have some pretty passionate fans. I haven't really heard a decent alternative to pure anonymity, other than maybe the idea mentioned earlier about contacting a journalist to help with at least attempting to verify the information.

But really, I don't think the 'anonymous Twitter' thing is the actual problem here. It's a symptom of the bigger issue of society at large being ready at the drop of a hat to completely destroy somebody based on something like an anonymous accusation. I know this is a frequent talking point of people who really mean "I don't believe this story" when they say it, but sometimes it just means what it says. Anybody should be able to express themselves however they want, but people also need to be rational and measured in their response. The people who have already burned their records are just as unreasonable as the ones who are already declaring Maynard's innocence or blowing off the woman.

It's hard to take almost any position other than an immediate, hardline dismissal of anything the accused has ever done because otherwise you'll be lumped in with the "she's lying" crowd and treated like a piece of shit. This topic is pretty unique in that regard. There aren't many other subjects of conversation in Western culture that draws such intense degrees of anger towards anyone who doesn't tow the line exactly.

But I don't say these sorts of things too often because I know it's one of the identifiers of the people who actually do things like blame the victim, harrass them, blow them off, or make excuses for why a situation isn't rape. I think a lot of people might come across as way bigger shitbags than they are due to a mix of poorly explaining their position, a lack of thorough/nuanced understanding of the different angles of the topic (go ask 100 people on the street what "enthusiastic consent" is), and like I mentioned before, being pushed into a fucked up radical position in response to being absolutely pummeled online for saying the wrong thing. That shit absolutely radicalizes people.

And I'm not the "this is why Trump won" because fuck people who voted for Donald Trump, that's not something that happens due to a small misunderstanding or anything that could possibly come from a place of well meaning. I don't think all opinions should be treated with respect or not shamed, I just notice that this topic in particular is incendiery to the max with very little in the way of proportional response. In most other areas, saying something people think is slightly wrong might warrant a correction, or a discussion, or maybe some gentle ribbing. But on this topic it's usually 0-100 instantly. It's not difficult to see how this dynamic can instantly alienate anybody who thinks 'incorrectly.'

And for a bit more reference, when the Jeordie White thing broke I was pretty overwhelmingly shut down by folks on other boards because I was apparently being some crazy extremist SJW by saying what amounts to "All of the evidence points towards it probably being true." So it's strange that right now, without much change in opinion on the topic, I'm being shit on as somebody for not really feeling much different about the events than the people doing the shitting.


I think "he didn't realize it was rape" and it still being rape is a valid point. I feel like acknowledging that this shit is normalized if not even supported by society is an important part of these conversations if we want to enact change. Having sex with a woman who is non-responsive, but conscious, is historically super normalized... like it is SO normalized, and not contextualized as rape. We have to change the conversation to it is rape, and they have to account for that.

These conversations we have around "silence isn't consent" were NOT COMMON CONVERSATIONS 16 YEARS AGO. The survivor is even acknowledging that. None of that makes it excusable or acceptable, and it makes it essential that we hold Maynard accountable. And obviously it was still clearly wrong. Of course it was. But like, think of those studies where they ask men if they would rape someone but as long as they don't use the word "rape" men will often say they would.

It's fascinating how everything here are all points I was making and yet this post is receiving a much different response than any of mine. Also thank you for being one of the few people to read my post and respond to what I actually said in an accurate way without going off on a tear against a strawman.


We should place all of the blame on him. He should publicly account for his actions and attempt to make this right. Like, the dude had to physically undress her and position her into the missionary position because she wasn't moving. It was active rape. He may very well have thought it was "different" and that is exactly why him being held accountable is essential. It's why how he responds now will be so telling.

I agree with all of this as well - except the word 'forcible.' Like you explained above, it's more than possible that he didn't realize she didn't consent, whatever the reason (he's dumb, he's inattentive, he had a different understanding of sex than a normal person, or the silence =\= thing not being at all a common social understanding.) I don't think it's honest to classify that as forcible because that word implies using physical force to keep somebody in that position. That has to be classified differently than something like a rape that took place due to a lack of express consent or misunderstanding social cues or anything like that. When these things hold such enormous, immense weight the words we use are so very important.

[Lerxto]

The patriarchy and rape culture were established by men. There’s no debate there.
So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.

[Sarah K]

Lmfaooooo

[Lerxto]

Lmfaooooo
Laugh your fucking ass off as much as you want. Jesus.

[Lerxto]

"Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are."

I don't have time for people who have trouble accepting this as a fact.

[cdm]

The patriarchy and rape culture were established by men. There’s no debate there.

This.

[Sarah K]

"Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are."

I don't have time for people who have trouble accepting this as a fact.

And who commits those crimes the vast majority of the time?

[Lerxto]

This.
And that proves... what exactly? Please tell me.
I didn't realize we were living in a time where we are to be blamed for our ancestor's sins.
What I see is another, useless genderalization of a problem, which won't help solving the problem at all.

[Lerxto]

And who commits those crimes the vast majority of the time?
Rape, is a sin of an individual. You keep using the word "vast majority" like it is a golden keyword to solidify your opinion.
I keep saying with reason that it is not.
Women too, commit rape.
It looks like you are really eager to make this issue men against women.
It's not.
It's an issue between innocents versus victims. We should blame the offenders, and that could be both man or woman.
So generalizing the offenders as "men" is irrelevant.
Is this really that hard to swallow?

[sweeterthan]

So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.
wow. we have not fixed it. AT ALL. the wave of #metoo we are seeing right now is hopefully only the beginning. we have a long way to go. I think its time for you to take a seat. here's some interesting reading for you.

http://www.toiletovhell.com/we-need-to-talk-about-these-maynard-james-keenan-allegations/


If your reaction to stories about sexual assault, especially high-profile ones that involve people with power and influence, is to side with the accused, that is your own choice. Passing an individual moral judgement does not equal a court conviction. It is up to everyone to read this story to draw their own conclusions. Because of all the unnervingly in-character details and the uncanny similarities to other stories (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgjilL1X0AAXsI3.jpg) I’ve seen online and heard from other fans, the least we can do is show some empathy for this woman.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_der ailed.html

Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.

when a woman is walking down the street, or on a blind date, or, yes, in an elevator alone (http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2011/07/05/richard_dawkins_and_male_privilege.html), she doesn’t know which group you’re in. You might be the potential best guy ever in the history of history, but there’s no way for her to know that. A fraction of men out there are most definitely not in that group. Which are you? Inside your head you know, but outside your head it’s impossible to.
This is the reality women deal with all the time.

https://medium.com/@KirstyStricklan/why-men-should-stop-saying-notallmen-immediately-f657e244f7a1

To ask us to hand out cookies and ‘Well Done For Not Raping Anybody’ badges to men who rush to tell us #NotAllMen, is unreasonable at best, and insulting at worst.

http://theconversation.com/what-rape-culture-says-about-masculinity-85513

Working to mitigate the harms of rape culture is not about hating men. It is simply about taking responsibility for how we, as men, behave and act in the world.

You're welcome.

[cdm]

"Men are not a target. Those who committed, or willing to commit a crime, are."

I don't have time for people who have trouble accepting this as a fact.

The rapist is the guilty party but we as a society bear responsibility in promoting or doing our part in dismantling the culture. It's a choice. There is a distinct difference between "you're a rapist" and "you, as part of a (barely) functioning society, should play a role in changing the culture". Not enough men are doing the former and the fact you're in here dying on this hill is proof of it. It's not a hard concept. Feel free to be intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant but don't get pissed off when people call you out.

[neorev]

I brought up the Maynard rape allegation and the other stories surrounding his behavior on tour with the appropriate links on another music forum's Tool thread and, I kid you not, someone said "It's only for inspiration." On top of that, that comment received Likes/Thank yous. Some Tool fans are fucked in the head. Then I was verbally attacked by another poster while another poster shared a Spongebob artwork that said "No one cares." So, society is failing at this point.

[Swykk]

So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.

Stefan Molyneux, is that you?

[Lerxto]

You're welcome.
What in the world made you think I'm saying we fixed the rape problem?
What we've fixed is that we have equal rights now.

From the very article you linked for me.
"If your reaction to stories about sexual assault, especially high-profile ones that involve people with power and influence, is to side with the accused, that is your own choice."
Don't you recognize that's exactly what I've been saying?
You think the high-profile ones with power and influence is purely made of men? No. Absolutely not.

"Do not expect any legal action to result from these anonymous claims. If the person behind the Twitter account came out and tried, it would be almost impossible to prove in a court of law that an assault ever transpired. Victims of sexual violence can sometimes take many, many years to process and unpack the abuse they suffered. By this time, any opportunity to collect evidence is long gone."
Maybe 17 years ago, yes. Not true now.
If the victim came out and tried right after the assault, we could verify the offender and there are time to collect evidence, especially if a women is a victim.
Have you ever considered what would happen if men said he was sexually assaulted, or harassed? Guess not.

There was a man in Japan who was convicted for a crime that he didn't commit.
He was in a subway. He didn't touched a thing. But a girl told the officers he tried to sexually harass her.
That man was put in jail for months, have been tried, lost his job and friends. Only to be found out he was not guilty after all.

The system is there to protect the people, and it protects ALL people.
If one individual who is not responsible for the crime gets convicted, the system failed. Not the other way around.
We may not catch every perpetrator. But if that guarantees an innocent one is not convicted, it is worth it.
This is the most basic thing we learn about the justice system.

All I've said, is we should stay with the victims and support them.
But, not all of them are men.

[sweeterthan]

Yeah, we still haven’t fixed it.

[Lerxto]

The rapist is the guilty party but we as a society bear responsibility in promoting or doing our part in dismantling the culture. It's a choice. There is a distinct difference between "you're a rapist" and "you, as part of a (barely) functioning society, should play a role in changing the culture". Not enough men are doing the former and the fact you're in here dying on this hill is proof of it. It's not a hard concept. Feel free to be intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant but don't get pissed off when people call you out.
What makes you say not enough men are willing to fix this problem?
Ask any men around you. What should they do?
Again, this is a problem for all of us. Men and women.
The question is, "what should WE do to fix this problem"?

I'm not intentionally obtuse or willfully ignorant. Read my previous replies and comments.
After that, if you still feel that way, I don't know what to say anymore.

[Lerxto]

Yeah, we still haven’t fixed it.
Yeah, and you're not helping it either with blaming men in this issue.

[Sarah K]

I am not sure what country you live in where women are sitting on top of the patriarchy (lol), that rape cases reported actually get taken care of by law enforcement, and that everyone has equal rights, but that is not the case most places on earth.

[sweeterthan]

Yeah, and you're not helping it either with blaming men in this issue.

Oh fuck off. I’ve experience a range of harassment and assault in my lifetime and all were committed by men.
Have you been raped or assaulted? No? How about you listen? learn. absorb.

[Swykk]

You should probably just say, “I’m a Tool fan, yes one of THOSE Tool fans, and as such, I don’t want to believe this. I also have serious issues with recognizing gender inequality and the struggles associated with coming forward as a victim of sexual misconduct, assault and/or rape. I read a lot of Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson stuff.”

And then not say anything else.

[cdm]

The question is, "what should WE do to fix this problem"?


For one, disabuse yourself of the notion that this isn't a societal problem (should read male / patriarchal problem).

[hologram parade]

So we're to blame, because men who lived centuries before made the patriarchy and rape culture.
That was a time when power ruled over equality. There were no equal rights. We fixed that.
Aren't we living in the 21st century? I see women at the top of a patriarchy system. I see women raping men.
Guess I have to blame monkeys for having different sexual organs.








Men, and toxic masculinity ARE to blame - - for rape culture, and the patriarchy that’s been unchecked for far too long. It’s worked in men’s favor, so change is slow, and justice for the people it’s affected negatively is little to none, honestly. The number one way a pregnant women dies in this country is at the hands of domestic violence to their male partners, or suicide that’s often
linked to abuse. You talk about things being equal now in the 21st century? How’s that come to you with huge wage and disparity gaps for women (especially women of color) and the fact the US has only turned down the ERA time and time again. The way you’re going about this so defensively and all ”not all men” style only worsens things tbh. You should work on challenging the men in your own life, and calling them out. Not going around forums telling everyone how they are wrong bc women are capable of assault as well. Women are not the problem.

[Lerxto]

This is the last comment I'll leave here. It's clearly not worth my time.


I am not sure what country you live in where women are sitting on top of the patriarchy (lol), that rape cases reported actually get taken care of by law enforcement, and that everyone has equal rights, but that is not the case most places on earth.
You have a serious problem if you read it that way.
I see a family with woman taking charge of the family. Working, earning money. Man taking care of the babies and doing housework.
You don't believe men and women have equal rights? Why don't you start a fucking revolution? Start with me. Tell me exactly one right that men have but women don't.


Oh fuck off. I’ve experience a range of harassment and assault in my lifetime and all were committed by men.
Have you been raped or assaulted? No? How about you listen? learn. absorb.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
But I don't have to shut up, listen, learn and absorb because I haven't been raped or assaulted.
And why aren't you listening to me? I listened. I read what you gave me.
You can't tell me to listen if you're not willing to listen too.


You should probably just say, “I’m a Tool fan, yes one of THOSE Tool fans, and as such, I don’t want to believe this. I also have serious issues with recognizing gender inequality and the struggles associated with coming forward as a victim of sexual misconduct. I read a lot of Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson stuff.”

And then not say anything else.
OH yes. I'm a Tool fan. Sadly for you, I'm not one of THOSE Tool fans. I don't idolize Maynard.
"My biggest concern was to get laid. My priority was to be validated, to be desired. This was my ticket to undo all of the dismissive behavior from family and teachers and the army of people that had ignored my potential. It was my chance to have somebody who I didn't even know and who didn't even know me give me everything in a moment, without question. Just surrender. I'd never had that. That power was new."
This is from his own biography.
And I don't read a lot of Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson stuff.
From where I'm sitting, you're the one who have problem with gender issues. By making what is not a gender issue into a gender issue.


I'm out of this mess. You guys should listen to yourselves, blaming men, me for what they, I haven't done.
While this anger and hatred should be spent somewhere else. Like, towards the people who actually committed a crime.

[Swykk]

“I know you are but what am I? I created this mess which I’m now blaming on everyone else and I’m out.”

See how you can say more with less? Granted, there’s very little substance no matter which way.

[sweeterthan]

This is the last comment I'll leave here. It's clearly not worth my time.
So the discussion of ending rape culture isn't worth your time? YES please see your way out. Good riddance. Some of us feel very strongly about it. I guess you don't.



I'm sorry that happened to you.
But I don't have to shut up, listen, learn and absorb because I haven't been raped or assaulted.
And why aren't you listening to me? I listened. I read what you gave me.
You can't tell me to listen if you're not willing to listen too.

You don't know what you're talking about. You just stated you don't have personal experience with this topic. So what exactly should i be taking from your replies? I'm still not sure what your point is other than "not all men".
If you actually read the links I provided for you, you wouldn't still be trying to counter argue. Seriously, i hope you spend some time reflecting on this.


I'm out of this mess. You guys should listen to yourselves, blaming men, me for what they, I haven't done.
While this anger and hatred should be spent somewhere else. Like, towards the people who actually committed a crime.
Right here.
"blaming men, me for what they, I haven't done."
You made it about you. OF COURSE!

Bye!

[playwithfire]

I guess I'll jump back in because of how much I value my time.

me every day, same as heck


I think that's misrepresenting the heart of what those people actually mean, at least the ones who are criticizing the use of an anonymous Twitter account for this sort of thing. I think it's less that they're criticizing a rape victim's actions in opening up about their experience and more about the idea that a person's career can be seriously damaged by something with 0 possible chance at verification. They're not coming at it from a "she's lying" angle, they're coming at it from a "this could just as likely be some scorned weirdo who Maynard didn't wave at on the street once."

I remember when the Conor Oberst thing (https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/7897942/conor-oberst-effects-false-rape-accusation-car-crash) happened, how I was horrified and was like "guess he's canceled" (which, to be clear, is a reaction I absolutely stand by, and then how the accuser retracted their statements and all that shit.

It's rare, but it does happen.


I understand the reasons why somebody might not want to come forward publicly especially when it involves somebody in the form of art that is known to have some pretty passionate fans. I haven't really heard a decent alternative to pure anonymity, other than maybe the idea mentioned earlier about contacting a journalist to help with at least attempting to verify the information.

I agree with this. I think your best bet is generally to get a reputable journalist on your side, but like, choosing anonymity is infinitely relatable.


But really, I don't think the 'anonymous Twitter' thing is the actual problem here. It's a symptom of the bigger issue of society at large being ready at the drop of a hat to completely destroy somebody based on something like an anonymous accusation. I know this is a frequent talking point of people who really mean "I don't believe this story" when they say it, but sometimes it just means what it says. Anybody should be able to express themselves however they want, but people also need to be rational and measured in their response. The people who have already burned their records are just as unreasonable as the ones who are already declaring Maynard's innocence or blowing off the woman.

So, I fully agree that like... vicious mob mentality "someone did something bad, let's accidentally dox someone with the same name and destroy them" is dangerous and bad. However, I would say that like, Maynard clearly having been a gross creep regardless of this incident is pretty self-evident? And that a man being so hyped up on his own power that he pushes too far is infinitely believable? I believe the accusation. It is believable. I also try to listen to survivors because in most cases, unless the person has some serious issues, there is nothing to benefit them coming forward. Yes, anonymity can be a shield for the millions of downsides of coming forward. I'm also waiting to see how he responds.


It's hard to take almost any position other than an immediate, hardline dismissal of anything the accused has ever done because otherwise you'll be lumped in with the "she's lying" crowd and treated like a piece of shit. This topic is pretty unique in that regard. There aren't many other subjects of conversation in Western culture that draws such intense degrees of anger towards anyone who doesn't tow the line exactly.

But I don't say these sorts of things too often because I know it's one of the identifiers of the people who actually do things like blame the victim, harrass them, blow them off, or make excuses for why a situation isn't rape. I think a lot of people might come across as way bigger shitbags than they are due to a mix of poorly explaining their position, a lack of thorough/nuanced understanding of the different angles of the topic (go ask 100 people on the street what "enthusiastic consent" is), and like I mentioned before, being pushed into a fucked up radical position in response to being absolutely pummeled online for saying the wrong thing. That shit absolutely radicalizes people.

I agree with you.


And I'm not the "this is why Trump won" because fuck people who voted for Donald Trump, that's not something that happens due to a small misunderstanding or anything that could possibly come from a place of well meaning. I don't think all opinions should be treated with respect or not shamed, I just notice that this topic in particular is incendiery to the max with very little in the way of proportional response. In most other areas, saying something people think is slightly wrong might warrant a correction, or a discussion, or maybe some gentle ribbing. But on this topic it's usually 0-100 instantly. It's not difficult to see how this dynamic can instantly alienate anybody who thinks 'incorrectly.'

And for a bit more reference, when the Jeordie White thing broke I was pretty overwhelmingly shut down by folks on other boards because I was apparently being some crazy extremist SJW by saying what amounts to "All of the evidence points towards it probably being true." So it's strange that right now, without much change in opinion on the topic, I'm being shit on as somebody for not really feeling much different about the events than the people doing the shitting.

Well, the JW thing had a second witness, for one. But, I agree with this as well. I typically respond to stuff based on the level of victim-blaming/sea-lioning/being weird about consent works that I see, and I don't think you're doing that shit. But like, people are incredibly sensitized with this.


It's fascinating how everything here are all points I was making and yet this post is receiving a much different response than any of mine. Also thank you for being one of the few people to read my post and respond to what I actually said in an accurate way without going off on a tear against a strawman.

Cheers! I did feel like some of what you were saying was being dismissed and that I thought you had good intentions.


I agree with all of this as well - except the word 'forcible.' Like you explained above, it's more than possible that he didn't realize she didn't consent, whatever the reason (he's dumb, he's inattentive, he had a different understanding of sex than a normal person, or the silence =\= thing not being at all a common social understanding.) I don't think it's honest to classify that as forcible because that word implies using physical force to keep somebody in that position. That has to be classified differently than something like a rape that took place due to a lack of express consent or misunderstanding social cues or anything like that. When these things hold such enormous, immense weight the words we use are so very important.

I definitely used the word forcible intentionally.[edit: heh apparently I never actually did, BUT I TOTALLY WOULD HAVE so my point stands] A really common response for people during like, rapes that lead to a conviction (though most rapes never do because, like, the world) is that they freeze up. I'd suggest you remove the word "keep" and replace it with "put" and yes, it literally did require physical force (undressing her as she was frozen, putting her in missionary, having sex with her while she did nothing) to have sex with her. Here's that study I mentioned somewhere earlier: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/college-men-commit-rape-study_n_6445510.html

[ltrandazzo]

Those of you coming up with defenses around "but did he realize it was rape and if he didn't then was it really rape" and blaming potential victims are really telling on yourselves right now. This isn't difficult to understand. Get out of your feelings around Tool and APC and try and look at this thing objectively. I know I have been because this is a hard one for me to swallow.

Jesus.

[theimage13]

Wow. I don't even know where to start.
I'll begin with saying that your statement is false. And by saying "fetid, useless cock into a woman" you are offending a lot more people than anyone else who's being mentioned here.
Sex is also sexual. Are you saying that sex is only driven by the man's desire to fuck a woman? Not vice versa? From my experience it's not.

Really...making fun of a rapist's useless dick is more offensive than the actual notion of somebody being a rapist? Really??

And you just contradicted yourself again, moron. Sex is sexual. Duh. Most women also desire sex (some women - and some men - just don't like sex - hence "most"). Women fancy a good fuck - when they consent to it. The difference between sex and rape, and I cannot believe that in 2018 I have to spell this out for someone - is that most guys who are being screwed by a woman are doing so willingly - where as many women being screwed by a guy...not so willingly. You're literally proving your own point wrong. Both sexes like to get it on, but it's MEN who are FAR, FAR more likely to force themselves onto an unwilling woman than vice-versa. So yes, once again, making rape largely a male-perpetrated problem is 100% accurate. But it does not mean than ALL men do it, so unless you're a rapist, you have no reason to feel personally attacked at all of these accusations. And if you are a rapist, please rape a running blender.

Not sure why I'm writing this, since you've already run off crying to your 4chan incel support group. But if you do accidentally stumble back in, please...get help. Listen to the adults in the room. Listen to the victims. Listen to common sense.

[playwithfire]

Just to be clear: I'm saying that it is possible he didn't think it was rape, because lots of rapists don't think it's rape, and it's still really rape.

[Lerxto]

If most men commits rape, domestic violence and induce suicide, you can blame men all you want.
Most you can say is - most of the rapists, and convicts are men. Huge difference.
You can look into the reasons why the majority of them are men.
You will find lack of education, lack of attention given when growing up, lack of social care. Not a Y chromosome in his DNA.
All I've said, and all I'll ever say is men and women should stand together against this problem called rape, domestic violence and whatever problem that stands in front of us.
What you're doing here is making men and women fight with each other, while the problem persists.
And you still don't see it. That's why I'm leaving here. There's no constructive discussion.

[Sarah K]

If everyone surrounding you is pointing out how absolutely ridiculous your stance on a topic is, perhaps that is not an indication of their intelligence levels. Maybe that is an indication that you need to do some reflection and evaluation on why you still have those beliefs.

[playwithfire]

You will find lack of education, lack of attention given when growing up, lack of social care. Not a Y chromosome in his DNA.


Do you not agree that men and women are socialized differently? Of course it's not a chromosome thing. It's a developmental and societal thing.

[Harry Seaward]

I definitely used the word forcible intentionally.[edit: heh apparently I never actually did, BUT I TOTALLY WOULD HAVE so my point stands] A really common response for people during like, rapes that lead to a conviction (though most rapes never do because, like, the world) is that they freeze up. I'd suggest you remove the word "keep" and replace it with "put" and yes, it literally did require physical force (undressing her as she was frozen, putting her in missionary, having sex with her while she did nothing) to have sex with her. Here's that study I mentioned somewhere earlier: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/college-men-commit-rape-study_n_6445510.html

Wow, you're right. I was honestly adding here and there to that post while doing a million other things so I somehow got some things conflated in my head and sidetracked myself one sentence into my own paragraph. So that's my mistake for being a dumbass.

But I did mean to make more or less the same general point about the word 'active' however, and I think it's probably more understandable in that context as well. Basically it really seems like a problem to describe something as an 'active' rape when there is a reasonable possibility that the perpetrator wasn't knowingly doing it. Which just goes back to my points about how there are acts of physical violence that are (arguably objectively) more harmful physically and mentally than others.

Other than that there's no real argument from me. I don't think somebody being frozen means they're fair game.

I just think that topics such as this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpability) have been discussed by one or two people before (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics) so we'd maybe do well as a society to at least put forth an attempt to remain even keeled while we work through this, instead of just throwing out humanity's history of nuanced conceptual thought in favor of immediate, explosive, unflinching passion.


Just to be clear: I'm saying that it is possible he didn't think it was rape, because lots of rapists don't think it's rape, and it's still really rape.

^^^

[sweeterthan]

Guess what? I'm back! Because the stupidity here astounds me.


This was not about attacking me? OH! SORRY!



Take a look at what you just wrote. Listen to yourselves. Listen to other victims too. Male victims.
Try to understand what common sense is, for common people. Obviously, in your world common sense means "blame the offenders instead of men? Fucking unacceptable!".

Poor you. You told me how I should feel about my experience and I told you to fuck off. Yes, you’re the victim here. Massive fucking eye roll. Keep responding and falling into every damn stereotype.


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[M1ke]

Take a look at what you just wrote. Listen to yourselves. Listen to other victims too. Male victims.


Why don't you do what you're saying yourself here, I'm a male sexual assault victim. It's hard to talk about, but I know that I'm in the minority of men, where a woman who's been assaulted is in the majority of women.

When a woman says she was raped and doesn't know how to talk about it, I completely understand. It takes a lot of strength to talk about it, especially when we live in a world where women are treated as sexual objects instead of people, and where they're not believed when they say they were assaulted.

As a male who is has also been a victim of sexual assault, trust me when I say that defending men is not what's necessary to fix this problem.

The problem is that our society is built to allow powerful people to take what they want from their victims, and that our system allows that to happen with no punishment for the perpetrator. Our culture is also set up to put men into those powerful positions and women into the powerless position in extremely disproportionate ways. Look at how many female victims have come forward compared to how many male victims have come forward. Men do not need to be defended.

I know it's more difficult to believe someone who accuses someone who makes art that we like, but we need to. The story sounds very plausible. I believe it.

Take your own advice, listen to me, men do not need to be defended.

[Halcyon]

I brought up the Maynard rape allegation and the other stories surrounding his behavior on tour with the appropriate links on another music forum's Tool thread and, I kid you not, someone said "It's only for inspiration." On top of that, that comment received Likes/Thank yous. Some Tool fans are fucked in the head. Then I was verbally attacked by another poster while another poster shared a Spongebob artwork that said "No one cares." So, society is failing at this point.

Most Tool fans think they’re the smartest person in the Auto Zone at any point in time. So it makes sense they would act this way.

[ickyvicky]

I brought up the Maynard rape allegation and the other stories surrounding his behavior on tour with the appropriate links on another music forum's Tool thread and, I kid you not, someone said "It's only for inspiration." On top of that, that comment received Likes/Thank yous. Some Tool fans are fucked in the head. Then I was verbally attacked by another poster while another poster shared a Spongebob artwork that said "No one cares." So, society is failing at this point.

That is scary.


Also, there is a part of me that thinks Maynard is not going to comment on it at all. Like Chris Hardwick hasn't yet, right? I could be wrong - I haven't been following it closely.