Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[DigitalChaos]

I don't think that's accurate polling nationwide.

See, they have just released poll numbers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/kelly-ayottes-approval_n_3147834.html) for (R) senator Kelly Ayotte in New Hampshire. After voting no on the gun legislation in the Senate, her approval ratings dropped by 15 points. That's huge.
Polls indicate that 75% of N.H. wanted the proposed background check, including 56% of Republicans.

They say her reelection in 2016 is in jeopardy.

That's the issue with polls. You can always be selective. Polls are a shitty justification for legislation. A few posts back I explained why the proposals were a failure. The president wants to ignore that and fall back on "but 90%." Rhetoric doesn't get much more lazy than that...

Also, the country is setup to prevent mob rule.

[Deepvoid]

I guess we'll see about the real polls in 2014.

[DigitalChaos]

I guess we'll see about the real polls in 2014.
Absolutely. After 16 years of the same president I hope we see a change. Don't discount the Congressional elections though. They are the ones pushing/blocking the gun legislation.

[Deepvoid]

That's why I said 2014.

What do you think are the odds of having both the house and senate controlled by same party?

[DigitalChaos]

That's why I said 2014.

What do you think are the odds of having both the house and senate controlled by same party?

I'm an idiot. I read 2016.

Same party control is certainly possible. GOP is going to stay very weak as long as the Libertarians keep tearing out chunks of them. It definitely gives a benefit to the Dems in the short term. There are certainly going to be fewer neocon wins in the GOP. I think we all win with that! However, there is a growing group of disenfranchised Obama supporters who are jumping out. Will the new Dem candidate pull them back in come 2016?

I haven't been deeply examining the local politics across the country since the 2012 round. What do you think?

[Deepvoid]

Tough to say. Obama is losing a lot of progressives supporters and the Republicans, well are Republicans. Except for a couple congressmen who are now supporting gay marriage, they are pretty much the same party.

It's still over 1 year away so a lot of things can happen.
As far as 2016 goes, if Hilary ends up being the candidate, I think she would have a very good chance.

[allegro]

I like Hillary but she has zero chance because of Benghazi.

We're kinda drifting here, eh?

[Dra508]

I like Hillary but she has zero chance because of Benghazi.

We're kinda drifting here, eh?Drifting definitely, zero chance? I think she's got a fighting chance.

[allegro]

The Repugs are already on the warpath and it's only 2013 (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/04/state-department-doesnt-agree-with-house-gop-benghazi-report/).

[DigitalChaos]

I could never figure out why they kept pushing the Benghazi shit. They tried to use it as a weapon during the Obama reelection and it failed. I guess it makes sense that they are trying to kill Hilary's chances with it. Maybe they think they will have more luck this time?

[Satyr]

Drifting definitely, zero chance? I think she's got a fighting chance.

I fighting chance? Shes almost guaranteed to win unless the GOP gets their act together.....Which I doubt they will.

I doubt we'll ever see a pro-life POTUS again.

[allegro]

Well, I certainly HOPE she wins. That would be awesome.

[DigitalChaos]

Which would you rather see as the opposing party to Dems:

A - GOP as they have been the last 10 years (socially conservative, fiscally liberal toward big business, fiscally conservative towards everything they don't like, pro-war)

B - GOP heavily taken over by the libertarians (socially liberal, fiscally conservative across the board, anti-war) (no, not the "Tea Party")


There tends to be a lot of hate towards libertarians from the left, but I am honestly curious about this one. It seems like the left has much more common ground with the libertarians.








*there is a lull in the gun chat so no issue with the tangent. i'll be happy to spit this off into another thread though... Thread title of "US politics", "elections discussion".... or something like that?

[allegro]

I'd go Green Party before I'd go Libertarian.

[Elke]

I can't imagine how someone who's serious about social challenge and truly progressive, could even consider libertarianism.

[Jinsai]

B - GOP heavily taken over by the libertarians (socially liberal, fiscally conservative across the board, anti-war) (no, not the "Tea Party")

You can't have it both ways! The biggest reason the libertarian movement is gaining traction within the GOP is because the fucking Tea Party self identifies as libertarian!



*there is a lull in the gun chat so no issue with the tangent. i'll be happy to spit this off into another thread though... Thread title of "US politics", "elections discussion".... or something like that?

Yes, for the love of whatever, stop derailing every goddamn thread in the headlines section to chat about why libertarianism is nifty and make a thread dedicated to it... Thread title of "Libertarianism PWNS!!!" or something like that.

[DigitalChaos]

I'd go Green Party before I'd go Libertarian.


I can't imagine how someone who's serious about social challenge and truly progressive, could even consider libertarianism.


The question was about opposing party to Dems, not a new party you would side with.

[DigitalChaos]

Massive showing for the "Stop the NRA" march in DC yesterday
http://www.guns.com/2013/04/25/todays-big-stop-the-nra-march-in-dc-that-no-one-showed-up-to-photos/

gun control going out with a whimper?

[DigitalChaos]

You can't have it both ways! The biggest reason the libertarian movement is gaining traction within the GOP is because the fucking Tea Party self identifies as libertarian!
"both" ways? WUT
Tea Party was the result of a populist hijacking of the libertarian movement by the GOP. There is a reason they waited until McCain lost to start pimping it. It was just an anti-Obama tool. Socially conservative, Fiscally conservative, Pro-war. 1 of 3 in common with libertarians. If anything, the are what the GOP used to be before the neocons started taking over.

Occupy Wall Street came from a different angle but had just as much overlap on libertarian views.

[Jinsai]

"both" ways? WUT
Tea Party was the result of a populist hijacking of the libertarian movement by the GOP. There is a reason they waited until McCain lost to start pimping it. It was just an anti-Obama tool. Socially conservative, Fiscally conservative, Pro-war. 1 of 3 in common with libertarians. If anything, the are what the GOP used to be before the neocons started taking over.

Occupy Wall Street came from a different angle but had just as much overlap on libertarian views.

I don't know why I'm bothering talking to you, now that you've announced that you're a childish and petulant troll by actually advertising the Boston Bombing video game just because you hoped it would make me mad, but whatever.

Without the Tea Party, the libertarian movement doesn't have the numbers to feasibly "take over" the GOP (not that they do anyway, obviously, but without the Tea Party it's an even bigger joke). This is why libertarian politicians are hesitant to come out and tell the Tea Party to fuck off.

Now please, stop drifting every goddamn thread to talk about libertarianism and make a dedicated thread for it where you can talk to yourself.

[DigitalChaos]

I don't know why I'm bothering talking to you

because you've had exactly nothing to say in this thread for weeks but the moment "libertarian" shows up you suddenly have something to say.



Without the Tea Party, the libertarian movement doesn't have the numbers to feasibly "take over" the GOP (not that they do anyway, obviously, but without the Tea Party it's an even bigger joke). This is why libertarian politicians are hesitant to come out and tell the Tea Party to fuck off.


Of course. They are a temporary stepping stone in the process. It doesnt MAKE them libertarian. That's exactly why I specifically excluded them in my question. There is a reason that people like Glenn Beck (kick of Tea Party hijacking) is focusing so heavily on trying to be "accepted" as a libertarian over the last year. Clearly, he and the TP weren't libertarian.

[Jinsai]

Of course. They are a temporary stepping stone in the process. It doesnt MAKE them libertarian.

For the love of god. You don't seem to understand how politics work. You think the Tea Party voters will kowtow to the libertarian ideal instead of it working the other way around? I would say take a look at Rand Paul's neo-con swap, but I'm completely done talking to you because you're a troll.

Now please, stop drifting every goddamn thread to talk about libertarianism and make a dedicated thread for it where you can talk to yourself

THIS FUCKING CONVERSATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GUNS

[DigitalChaos]

For the love of god. You don't seem to understand how politics work. You think the Tea Party voters will kowtow to the libertarian ideal instead of it working the other way around? I would say take a look at Rand Paul's neo-con swap, but I'm completely done talking to you because you're a troll.
The Tea Party worked perfectly for fracturing and weakening the GOP. Fox News started pushing Tea Party and trying to form it's rhetoric right after McCain's loss. It was a great anti-Obama tool for them. Then, Fox tried to taper down in time for the 2012 election but couldn't control them anymore. They had Glenn Beck and all the supposed Tea Party leaders lined up behind Romney but lots of the Tea Party hated him.

When you have a narrow view of politics, you won't see the various long games unfolding. Things like the libertarian caucus strategy in 2012 was a long game that pissed the GOP off to no end. You need to drive a slow and steady wedge to make any meaningful change to this two party system. It doesn't matter that Rand Paul is a neo-con (he always was, there is no "swap"). What matters is that he brings many of the libertarian ideals that are going to continue fracturing the GOP. There is a reason they are heavily talking about flipping their views on gay marriage, immigration, changing the presidential primary system (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/03/18/reince-priebus-gives-gop-prescription-for-future/).

Here is one you probably can't comprehend: Obama's reelection is probably the single most powerful boost to the libertarian movement in the last decade.

[Jinsai]

You're a fucking troll (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1573-Boston-Marathon/page14). Nothing you have to say about anything is useful, and if you want to keep talking about libertarianism, make a fucking thread for it. As I said before, I'm done talking to you. You might have thought that meant I was willing to continue this discussion, but you were mistaken.

[DigitalChaos]

You're a fucking troll (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1573-Boston-Marathon/page14). Nothing you have to say about anything is useful, and if you want to keep talking about libertarianism, make a fucking thread for it. As I said before, I'm done talking to you. You might have thought that meant I was willing to continue this discussion, but you were mistaken.
I'm happy you came back to this thread after 3 weeks of not posting to provide absolutely no additions to the original topic of the thread. It was cool when you repeatedly "stopped talking" to me too. My favorite might be where you took the time to talk about one of my posts in a completely different thread that totally didn't make you mad.

The rest of us were talking about politics that relate to gun control because there is nothing else going on in gun control news. That's mostly because gun control fell on it's face. Maybe that's because of all the pro-control people who "understand politics" the way you do.

If you want the thread to go be on topic, I suggest you actually stop posting instead of just saying it. You've deviated this thread much more than anyone else while also deviating from any level of civility. Talk about trolling...

[DigitalChaos]

Now before jinsai comes back again to "stop talking to me"... let's go back to the political atmosphere talk as it relates to gun control!

This is interesting. Gun control coming back again for the mid-term elections
Schumer, McCain agree: Gun control’s coming back before the end of the year
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/25/schumer-mccain-agree-gun-controls-coming-back-before-the-end-of-the-year


You think this will sway enough of the GOP to vote for gun control to prevent losing votes? There is also the handfull of Dem's who voted against it.

[DigitalChaos]

According to Nate Silver (the awesome stats guy that everyone loves now):
Few Repubs that are up for reelection are vulnerable to the tactic. Interestingly, the Senate vote against the bill this time around may have actually SECURED the GOP House seats.



The Gun Vote and 2014: Will There Be an Electoral Price?
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/the-gun-vote-and-2014-will-there-be-an-electoral-price/

[Elke]

I'm just going to drop in and say I watched Bowling For Columbine again because I'm going to teach about school shootings next week and I wanted to locate the Marilyn Manson bit, and I got completely mesmerized by the rest of the doc - and seeing Charlton Heston going 'From my cold dead hands' after every tragedy made me think of this thread.

Also: I'm kind of pro the whole 'bullets should be more expensive' idea. If munition becomes more expensive, people might be less inclined to buy weapons that eat bullets.

[allegro]

yeah and gang members don't seem to be the type to collect brass and re-load the bullets. (Many people who shoot at ranges actually do this.)

Re elections: It's hard to predict unless the politicians get big big public pressure from one side or another. See the fight for Jesse Jackson Jr's seat in the 2nd District here in Chicago,

[Satyr]

yeah and gang members don't seem to be the type to collect brass and re-load the bullets. (Many people who shoot at ranges actually do this.)

Re elections: It's hard to predict unless the politicians get big big public pressure from one side or another. See the fight for Jesse Jackson Jr's seat in the 2nd District here in Chicago,

If you start to see unreasonable ammunition prices over a long period of time....You better believe that criminals will start reloading.

[allegro]

Gangs aren't gonna be out there on their hands and knees on the street picking up brass in a gang war zone.

Btw, you may not know this because your guns were lost in a tragic boating accident (and BBs are cheap) but ammo prices have been high for decades. The HIGH PRICE of ammo is why target shooters collect brass and re-load.

[Dra508]

yeah and gang members don't seem to be the type to collect brass and re-load the bullets. (Many people who shoot at ranges actually do this.)

I didn't know about this re-loading thing, but yes - this was the way at the range I went to in CA and my brother in GA does this as well. He gave me the whole 5 year history of ammo shortage due to the wars.

I'm afraid this whole gun control news cycle will/has come to an end with no progress...

[DigitalChaos]

Criminals won't care about ammo prices in context of the crimes being committed... maybe they will care if they practice at a range. They just won't go through enough in actual crime for it to matter. Trying to go after ammunition is just going to make it harder for people to increase their skills.

[Satyr]

It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is.

[DigitalChaos]

It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is.
There are people on the opposite side who are equally naive as well. Do you remember all the people talking about how much Obama was hurting gun laws in his first term? The ONLY thing he did was decrease restrictions on guns (in parks or something).

It all becomes fairly predictable though. Hell, all of my guns and ammo are now fully subsidized by the actions of government over the last few years. I don't have much (2 guns, few thousand rounds of ammo, and random addons) but it wouldn't be possible without the centralized authority pushing on everyone.

I bought several cases of ammo shortly after Newtown. A few months later I could dump them for 50-100% profit. Thank you gun control people! :)
Then theres the governmental fiscal failures combined with excessive market regulations... soo... I got into bitcoin a couple years ago and sold off some of it 3 weeks ago. Made enough to completely cover whatever the ammo didn't and have enough left over to buy a mining rig equal to $60k in computing rigs.

Thanks government!







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABhyKEK-CDg

[Wolfkiller]

I'm just going to drop in and say I watched Bowling For Columbine again because I'm going to teach about school shootings next week and I wanted to locate the Marilyn Manson bit, and I got completely mesmerized by the rest of the doc - and seeing Charlton Heston going 'From my cold dead hands' after every tragedy made me think of this thread.

Also: I'm kind of pro the whole 'bullets should be more expensive' idea. If munition becomes more expensive, people might be less inclined to buy weapons that eat bullets.

My apologies, not trying to derail the thread. But I had to pop in and note that the bit with Heston saying "From my cold dead hands" after Columbine was a complete fabrication.

[DigitalChaos]

My apologies, not trying to derail the thread. But I had to pop in and note that the bit with Heston saying "From my cold dead hands" after Columbine was a complete fabrication.

Yup.
Michael Moore is the left wing equivalent to Alex Jones. It's kind of crazy seeing people treat him as a credible. You need to fact check every single thing that comes out of his mouth.



To save other's the time:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/896641/posts (not exactly credible but sufficient for this reply)
Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at that annual meeting.

[Jinsai]

from the wikipedia page about the slogan: "Heston repeated the phrase at the end of each NRA convention over which he presided as president. When he announced his retirement in 2003, he concluded by repeating "From my cold, dead hands." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_my_cold,_dead_hands

so, even if the soundbite wasn't showing up right after Columbine, it kept coming less than a year after and continued over and over again until he retired. Then again, when Moore confronts Heston in his house about having a convention right after a local tragedy, that instance isn't even related to Columbine. He was talking about a young girl being shot by a classmate in his hometown of Flint Michigan. It's been a while since I've seen the movie, so if he frames it as though Heston said that right after Columbine, that's definitely a misrepresentation. However, Heston said it over and over again, and he did this at conventions that seemed organized to intentionally show up in communities recently devastated by gun violence.

I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore, but comparing him to Alex Jones is a joke.

Also, you won't get any useful info from Freerepublic forums.

[DigitalChaos]

It's been a while since I've seen the movie, so if he frames it as though Heston said that right after Columbine, that's definitely a misrepresentation.
That's exactly what he did. Overlaid the "cold dead hands" video with Moore talking about an NRA rally held 10 days after: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fAouWXzi-1Q#t=2115s

I don't like the NRA either but cmon...
This is just one of the many inaccuracies in Bowling for Columbine.

... and yea, Moore is a 9/11 truther so I lump him in with Alex Jones.

[DigitalChaos]

The other inaccuracy with that exact same segment is that the NRA was holding their yearly meeting there (not just some pro gun rally). They are required to do this by law. They also couldn't cancel it due to the 10day contractual back-out. The NRA actually cancelled ALL the other side-events that were supposed to take place over multiple days, out of sympathy for the columbine victims. They held a single day event with ONLY their obligated yearly meeting.

Even more reason Moore's framing was shitty.

[onthewall2983]

Isn't Alex Jones neutral when it comes to left and right? I seem to remember him laying some theories at GWB's feet, too.

[DigitalChaos]

Isn't Alex Jones neutral when it comes to left and right? I seem to remember him laying some theories at GWB's feet, too.
Yup. I'm not sure who the big right-wing conspiracy person is... maybe Glenn Beck?

[Jinsai]

... and yea, Moore is a 9/11 truther so I lump him in with Alex Jones.

no way? Link?

[DigitalChaos]

no way? Link?
Videos are dead but the transcripts are still up:
http://reason.com/blog/2007/06/19/the-awful-truth-about-9-11
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/moore_911_could_be_inside_job.htm

[Jinsai]

did you notice that you're linking to infowars?

that's ALEX JONES btw

[Elke]

See, that's why it reminded me of this thread - I post something relevant and something only vaguely relevant, and before you hit the bottom of the page, we're at Alex Jones and 9/11. Of course it's manipulated, everything about it is - it's propaganda.

I was listening to an interview about the Mexican flu vaccine panic this morning, and I was once again reminded of this thread: both sides seem to lean heavily on arguments that derive support from the listener / reader by drawing on fear. As long as the debate plays out with this level of emotion, we're not going to see a solution.

[DigitalChaos]

did you notice that you're linking to infowars?

that's ALEX JONES btw
there is evidence of it everywhere
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/06/19/348186/-Michael-Moore-Calls-For-New-9-11-Investigation
Try googling if you are actually interested.

[DigitalChaos]

Tom Knapp recently died. That man was one hell of a shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uHt4AwYb4

[Dra508]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2013/04/27/179318906/bloomberg-aims-his-money-at-gun-control-opponents

This should get interesting....

[DigitalChaos]

See, that's why it reminded me of this thread - I post something relevant and something only vaguely relevant, and before you hit the bottom of the page, we're at Alex Jones and 9/11. Of course it's manipulated, everything about it is - it's propaganda.

I was listening to an interview about the Mexican flu vaccine panic this morning, and I was once again reminded of this thread: both sides seem to lean heavily on arguments that derive support from the listener / reader by drawing on fear. As long as the debate plays out with this level of emotion, we're not going to see a solution.

The pattern is: shitty "facts"/opinions have roots in conspiracy stupidity. Pick better sources!
And yea, I've been saying it over and over in here... fear = fail. Don't build legislation on fear... just fucking DONT.

[DigitalChaos]

This guy has my overarching message distilled into a 2min video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2fbF_vDKI4

[Jinsai]

there is evidence of it everywhere
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/06/19/348186/-Michael-Moore-Calls-For-New-9-11-Investigation
Try googling if you are actually interested.

It's just surprising, given that an "inside job" 9/11 conspiracy theory would seem to contradict many of the assertions made in Fahrenheit 9/11. It's also strange that it seems the only time he brought this up is that one instance while promoting Sicko. That one bizarre instance doesn't qualify him for comparison to Alex Jones, who is the biggest fountain of conspiracy theories out there.

Regardless, none of this has much bearing on Bowling for Columbine. He's a manipulative filmmaker, and he does intentionally mislead the audience at times, and he can wallow in melodrama that really doesn't do his stance much good, but there's still some good points made in the movie.

EDIT: That video is ridiculous. What the hell is up with these analogies? "It's like Jay Z and R. Kelly getting together to" what the fuck?! He can be as vaguely dismissive of the proposed bill as he wants to be, but he doesn't address the reason people are mad. The vast majority of the people surveyed were in support of universal background checks, and they were flatly ignored. You can't have a rant about this and not even address that.

[DigitalChaos]

I definitely agree. I think the Manson segment was the best of the entire thing.

[aggroculture]

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[Satyr]

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

I'm sure it made you feel much better about yourself to post about those tragedies. You've won 10 internets!

Would you like me to start threads where you can post about accidental drownings or accidental vehicle related deaths?

[aggroculture]

No. But I am always interested in how people bring up completely irrelevant things instead of facing this issue.

[DigitalChaos]

Quick, lets put together a site listing all the people who were victimized, injured, or killed in a situation where the victim didn't have a gun!



seriously, what value do those types of sites serve? It's too pointless to change anyone's mind. It's pure circlejerk.

[Elke]

I'm sorry, but how is listing accidental gun deaths not relevant to a gun control debate?

The auto industry does this all the time: compiling lists of acidental vehicular deaths and coming up with new ways to reduce the chance of someone dying in a car crash. It's why we've seen a decrease of vehicular deaths compared to the number of cars on the road: not because people drive more safely, but because cars have been made safer, there's more traffic control and higher fines, en people are forced to take more difficult driving tests in order to get a license.

A list of gun related accidents can reveal similar patterns, which in turn can inspire similar solutions to prevent these deaths. Because we can assume that people aren't suddenly going to become smarter about guns, we might as well see if there's nothing else that can be done.

[Satyr]

I'm sorry, but how is listing accidental gun deaths not relevant to a gun control debate?

The auto industry does this all the time: compiling lists of acidental vehicular deaths and coming up with new ways to reduce the chance of someone dying in a car crash. It's why we've seen a decrease of vehicular deaths compared to the number of cars on the road: not because people drive more safely, but because cars have been made safer, there's more traffic control and higher fines, en people are forced to take more difficult driving tests in order to get a license.

A list of gun related accidents can reveal similar patterns, which in turn can inspire similar solutions to prevent these deaths. Because we can assume that people aren't suddenly going to become smarter about guns, we might as well see if there's nothing else that can be done.

Well there we go. Lets be constructive. You have the list of gun related accidents. What are the patterns and how would you suggest preventing these tragedies. I'm genuinely interested.

[Elke]

If I was American, I'd spend time wading through that. It seems like a decent starting point.

[Minpin]

I haven't looked at this thread in the last couple of weeks, and there seemed to be a bit of politics that I don't understand, so I'm just going to weigh in a bit randomly.

As I've stated before I have no real conception of American culture, and the need for guns as a tool for self defence. The notion is completely foreign to me for which I'm very thankful. I know guns in terms of sporting and hunting.

I'm a little too drunk to read through aggrocultures link, but the number of times I hear of a situation where someone picks up a gun and accidentally shoots and injures/kills someone really disturbs me. Being raised around guns, the cardinal rules were never point a gun at a person, never leave a gun loaded, and never leave a gun unsecured (you'd put medicine in a cabinet out of a child's reach yet leave a fucking handgun on your bedside table?!)

This obviously doesn't gel with the American self defence circumstance. Obviously having a gun in a safe with the ammo stored in a separate locked case isn't going to help you defend yourself.

While I still think the first reform should be a mandatory safety course, the notion of raising the price of ammunition is an interesting option.


It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is.
What is this moronic statement pertaining too? The idea that you are either 'pro gun' or 'anti gun' is completely retarded. It's a question of regulation. I think demonstrable competency with a gun should be a requirement, does that make me 'anti gun'?

[Satyr]

Well there we go. Lets be constructive. You have the list of gun related accidents. What are the patterns and how would you suggest preventing these tragedies. I'm genuinely interested.

Crickets....yet again. You ask the anti-gun crowd to be constructive and come up with a solution....

Not just crickets but some drunk guys calling people morons and their ideas retarded while contributing absolutely nothing tangible. Not surprised in the least.

[Elke]

I'm sorry, 'drunk guys'? Now that is... wow. Such a good, solid argument. Proof solid of your stance, if I ever I saw it.

[aggroculture]

There are 30,000 gun-deaths a year. 30,000 is a small town. Every year a small town is snuffed off the map.
If Muslim terrorists were bombing small towns of 30,000 adults and children off the map every year we'd be in WWIII: we'd be nuking the world. Remember only 3000 people died in 9/11. A tenth of the yearly gun deaths.
The USA has made peace with this amount of deaths every year, and it's sickening.
I think that part of the problem is that though massive, the number is too low for many of us to be affected by it: 30,000 is 1/10,000th or 0.001% of the population. You have a very small chance of actually knowing someone killed by a gun, even though they're dropping like flies around us.

[Satyr]

Made to order statistics and more emotional stuff from a drunk.

Still no solutions suggested? I'm surprised.

[Satyr]

There are 30,000 gun-deaths a year. 30,000 is a small town. Every year a small town is snuffed off the map.
If Muslim terrorists were bombing small towns of 30,000 adults and children off the map every year we'd be in WWIII: we'd be nuking the world. Remember only 3000 people died in 9/11. A tenth of the yearly gun deaths.
The USA has made peace with this amount of deaths every year, and it's sickening.
I think that part of the problem is that though massive, the number is too low for many of us to be affected by it: 30,000 is 1/10,000th or 0.001% of the population. You have a very small chance of actually knowing someone killed by a gun, even though they're dropping like flies around us.

There are 75+K Alcohol related deaths per year. You get on board with the full blown prohibition of alcohol. I'll get on board with prohibition of guns.

[DF118]

There are 75+K Alcohol related deaths per year. You get on board with the full blown prohibition of alcohol. I'll get on board with prohibition of guns.

How many of those 75,000 alcohol related deaths were murders?

[aggroculture]

What drunk? I barely drink. Somebody else posted about being drunk, get your re-read on.

Also, why are you talking about alcohol? We're talking about guns here, stop changing the subject.

[DigitalChaos]

Crickets....yet again. You ask the anti-gun crowd to be constructive and come up with a solution....

Not just crickets but some drunk guys calling people morons and their ideas retarded while contributing absolutely nothing tangible. Not surprised in the least.
yuuuup

Speaking of crickets.... some 5 year old kid shot his 2 year old sister with a Cricket Rifle (my first rifle). Fine, give your kid a 22 to teach him about guns but don't turn your back. Your eyes should be on the kid 100% of the time that they have the gun in their hands. I am guessing the parents are the type who say "a 22 can't kill you" like it's a BB gun or something.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[Satyr]

What drunk? I barely drink. Somebody else posted about being drunk, get your re-read on.

Also, why are you talking about alcohol? We're talking about guns here, stop changing the subject.

Minpin. He replied to a post of mine where he admitted to being too drunk to read through a site then continued to call me a moron and my ideas retarded. All while offing up absolutely nothing constructive.

[Satyr]

yuuuup

Speaking of crickets.... some 5 year old kid shot his 2 year old sister with a Cricket Rifle (my first rifle). Fine, give your kid a 22 to teach him about guns but don't turn your back. Your eyes should be on the kid 100% of the time that they have the gun in their hands. I am guessing the parents are the type who say "a 22 can't kill you" like it's a BB gun or something.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I huge part of the problem is that our country has abandoned the concept of personal responsibility. In the case you sited. It would be the inanimate objects fault (the gun) and the parents have no responsibility.

Also likewise for all the negligent discharges...Also the firearms fault. Not the person that shot themself.

[aggroculture]

Minpin. He replied to a post of mine where he admitted to being too drunk to read through a site then continued to call me a moron and my ideas retarded. All while offing up absolutely nothing constructive.

Exactly what constructive advice have you offered to reduce that 30,000 gun death figure?
"Personal responsibility" just isn't cutting it, as we can see.

[Satyr]

Exactly what constructive advice have you offered to reduce that 30,000 gun death figure?
"Personal responsibility" just isn't cutting it, as we can see.

Placing more importance on personal responsibility than blaming inanimate objects for injuries and deaths. There. I suggested something that might actually impact the death toll.

[aggroculture]

And how would that work, if you refuse to mandate that people are at least required to be trained how to use these killing machines?
How do you get people to be more responsible?

[Satyr]

And how would that work, if you refuse to mandate that people are at least required to be trained how to use these killing machines?
How do you get people to be more responsible?

I seem to recall being subjected to a massive campaign against tobacco. Maybe do something similar but have commercials that advocate not leaving loaded firearms around children.

You have any better ideas? I'd love to hear them.

[allegro]

I huge part of the problem is that our country has abandoned the concept of personal responsibility.
Let me assure you that the legal system has NOT abandoned "the concept of personal responsibility."

I've already given my biggest suggestion: legalize drugs.

But this "War on Drugs" has been so damned successful, nobody's gonna give up that shit. <---- sarcasm

[Satyr]

Let me assure you that the legal system has NOT abandoned "the concept of personal responsibility."

I've already given my biggest suggestion: legalize drugs.

But this "War on Drugs" has been so damned successful, nobody's gonna give up that shit.

So people are able to responsibly do heroin, cocaine, LSD...but they cannot be trusted with firearms?

[Deepvoid]

Guns don't kill people. 5-year old kids do.

How many kids have shot dead other people in the last couple months? I remember at least 3 time easily.
Since ridicule doesn't kill either, it's unfortunate the kid did not know how to reload because he should have shot the not so responsible parent for not watching them. One right in the back of the head.

Jesus .. I don't know you gun fanatics can even look at yourself in the mirror and say "thank god we have so many guns available for us and basically little to no regulation."
Gotta be mentality ... you know .. I don't want to say ill but I'll go with unstable.

[DigitalChaos]

So people are able to responsibly do heroin, cocaine, LSD...but they cannot be trusted with firearms?
That's not what she said.

I'd say that legalizing drugs is a step TOWARD a culture of more responsibility.

[DigitalChaos]

And how would that work, if you refuse to mandate that people are at least required to be trained how to use these killing machines?
How do you get people to be more responsible?
Instead of coddling them and acting like they are the victim of not having enough laws to protect them... how about you ridicule the fuck out of them in the public spotlight. And I'm not talking about the politicized ridicule that happens only from the Dems or Repubs... I am talking about universal "you and anyone who does what you did are too fucking stupid to live" ridicule.



I'd settle for just stopping the portion we are doing now with the coddling and victimization of too few laws



Anyone remember the DEA agent who shot himself infront of a classroom of kids? Did anyone say "wow, we need to prevent police from having access to guns"?? No, they said "wtf, that guy is a goddamned idiot"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZdeAVOiQmU

[Deepvoid]

Yeah and now you have kids gunning other kids down. Why because, there are more guns out there, which increases the odds of more idiotic people owning guns. It's just gonna get worst buddy. You have no idea.

I swear, one day you're gonna hear about a kid shooting his parents dead in their sleep by accident.

[DigitalChaos]

Yeah and now you have kids gunning other kids down. Why because, there are more guns out there, which increases the odds of more idiotic people owning guns. It's just gonna get worst buddy. You have no idea.

I swear, one day you're gonna hear about a kid shooting his parents dead in their sleep by accident.

hyperbolic much?
It's not getting worse. It's getting better. Accidents happen. Sometimes they happen from negligence. It's ridiculous to try and force something on millions of people because of a fraction of a percent of people.
You want to build a padded wall around your life, go for it. Stay the fuck out of my life. Molon labe.

[DigitalChaos]

PS - you totally dropped the ball with that reply. It should have been "if the 2 year old had a gun this wouldn't have happened"

[Satyr]

That's not what she said.

I'd say that legalizing drugs is a step TOWARD a culture of more responsibility.

Forgive me. I mistakenly thought allegro was in the anti gun/anti responsibility crowd.

[DigitalChaos]

Forgive me. I mistakenly thought allegro was in the anti gun/anti responsibility crowd.
Well, she is actually ok with additional gun restrictions. However, she has a strong respect for the constitution and law in general. You and I may have very different desires and political agenda than her but it's very difficult to disagree with her on what will or won't actually work. Definitely one of the rare people who take a rational and well thought out approach.

The summary of her gun "problem" stance (if i remember correctly) is: just about everything proposed will be ineffective, we should actually enforce current gun law, stop the war on drugs, give some attention to poverty and education to reduce crime across the board.


Correct me if I am wrong @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76)

[allegro]

No, DigitalChaos, I think you summarized my stance very well, thank you. I think he's just trolling, as I've already said I *OWN* guns (and I posted a photo of one of them).

This "pro or anti gun" or "gun fanatic" is oversimplification. It's like how people think you are "Pro-abortion" if you are "Pro-choice."


Definitely one of the rare people who take a rational and well thought out approach.
Thank you very much, I appreciate that.

Sorry for accidentally face-palming the post way up there, I fat-fingered on my iPhone.



I'd say that legalizing drugs is a step TOWARD a culture of more responsibility.
Amen.

[Minpin]

Crickets....yet again. You ask the anti-gun crowd to be constructive and come up with a solution....

Not just crickets but some drunk guys calling people morons and their ideas retarded while contributing absolutely nothing tangible. Not surprised in the least. This drunk guy ;) Subtle distinction, but I didn't call you a moron. I said your statement, "It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is", was moronic, and the idea IS retarded. As Allegro said above, it's oversimplifying.
Kinda ironic that you didn't answer my question. Does making a safety course mandatory for gun ownership make me 'anti-gun'?

Minpin. He replied to a post of mine where he admitted to being too drunk to read through a site then continued to call me a moron and my ideas retarded. All while offing up absolutely nothing constructive. Hahaha now this is IRONY! Just to reiterate, the post of yours I replied to was "It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is". That's it. You weren't quoting anyone. One single, oversimplified, condescending sentence. And you've got the nerve to say my post wasn't constructive! Again, didn't call you a moron (but fucking oath you know I'm thinking it)

Regarding being too drunk to read through a site, I'd had a really enjoyable night drinking with friends, clicked on aggrocultures link and didn't feel like depressing myself. I didn't mean I wasn't capable of reading it. I was reading up on this thread.

[Satyr]

Does making a safety course mandatory for gun ownership make me 'anti-gun'?

Not necessarily. The only way I can see to make a mandatory gun safety course would be to issue a license that is required to own firearms.

I doubt that will happen.

[Deepvoid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m0aNLwHJAk

[allegro]

Guns don't "accidentally" go off. Somebody may not know it's loaded, but that's not the gun going off by itself. Maybe somebody pulls the trigger and they didn't know the gun was loaded. Maybe the person is stupid and doesn't know that if you pull the trigger, the gun will fire. But a gun is shot only one way: By pulling a trigger. Period. There is no other way to fire a gun.

Here, look at this (http://www.kidsandcars.org/back-overs.html). And this (http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html).

Any time we're talking about a gun, a large vehicle, a pool, we have to talk about SAFETY. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we can or should outlaw all cars, guns and pools.

[Deepvoid]

Guns don't "accidentally" go off. Somebody may not know it's loaded, but that's not the gun going off by itself. Maybe somebody pulls the trigger and they didn't know the gun was loaded. Maybe the person is stupid and doesn't know that if you pull the trigger, the gun will fire. But a gun is shot only one way: By pulling a trigger. Period. There is no other way to fire a gun.

Here, look at this (http://www.kidsandcars.org/back-overs.html). And this (http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html).

Any time we're talking about a gun, a large vehicle, a pool, we have to talk about SAFETY. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we can or should outlaw all cars, guns and pools.

Took me 30 seconds to find the following from Wikipedia. As I do not own guns, I will let you confirm or deny the following

"Accidental discharge can occur by means other than the finger pulling the trigger such as dropping a loaded weapon even though most have drop-safety or firing ping block.
Accidental discharges not involving trigger-pull can also occur if the firearm is mechanically unsound: poor maintenance, abuse, inept "gunsmithing," or the use of substandard materials or defective ammunition in the gun may all lead to breakage.
One last form of accidental discharge, known as cooking off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_off), occurs when a weapon becomes overheated, with the firing chamber hot enough to ignite the propellant charge in the ammunition round, causing the cartridge to fire."

[allegro]

"Accidental discharge can occur by means other than the finger pulling the trigger such as dropping a loaded weapon even though most have drop-safety or firing ping block.
That still activates the trigger mechanism. And it's not likely to be what happened at the instances cited in the video you posted. You're not going to have "cooking off" at a gun show, nor are you going to have people dropping weapons. Hell, guns shouldn't even be LOADED at gun shows. See where this is going?

I mean, seriously, go study how a gun works, fire a gun yourself, it's very rudimentary equipment, it doesn't require many parts, gun owners are taught how to completely disassemble their gun and reassemble, to clean and transport the gun.

The video you posted involves a rifle: http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4741146_a-rifle-work.html?ref=Track2&utm_source=ask

And, again, we can't outlaw guns in this country. I repeat: WE CAN'T outlaw guns in this country. We can't change that part of our Constitution. Ain't happening. You're beating a dead horse. Yes, we can and should teach safety. But this conversation keeps coming around to our Constitution, and you ignore that part of the conversation.

[Deepvoid]

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally." It was to demonstrate that the culture is now to a point where guns are offered as birthday present to 5-year olds.

If you paid more attention to the content and not the form ..
I don't give a fuck about your constitution. If the constitution would give you the right to steal from those who have stolen from you, you sound like the type of person who would do it just because you have been granted this right even if it's morally wrong.

You guys sound a like a bunch of robots incapable of knowing the difference from what's right and what's wrong.

The right to bear arms so kids can shot each other. How fucking pathetic.
Gun freaks ..

[allegro]

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally." It was to demonstrate that the culture is now to a point where guns are offered as birthday present to 5-year olds.
In certain rural parts of our country, those kinds of guns are only used for hunting and children learn gun safety at a very early age and they learn how to hunt. It's not a part of any so-called "gun culture."

The rest of what you say about our Constitution is illogical and emotional and makes a logical leap between hunting and "gun culture" and "gun freaks." If you want to be in this conversation and be considered an intelligent person actually contributing, you need to acknowledge certain realities like our government and the Constitution and how this all works. Also, you have to be logical. With over 300 million guns already owned in this country, we cannot possible hire a Gun Gestapo to go door-to-door without a warrant to remove all the guns. First, because it would be unconstitutional. Second, because it would be financially and physically impossible. That horse left the barn 200 years ago.

If the only reason you're in here is to poke fun at our country, our Constitution, and to point at us all as "gun freaks," you're a troll.


The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally."
You posted a link without providing any explanation whatsoever, without providing any reason why you posted the video.


I just went to your profile and clicked on the "ignore" button, so I will no longer see anything you are saying.

[aggroculture]

how about you ridicule the fuck out of them in the public spotlight. And I'm not talking about the politicized ridicule that happens only from the Dems or Repubs... I am talking about universal "you and anyone who does what you did are too fucking stupid to live" ridicule.
Anyone remember the DEA agent who shot himself infront of a classroom of kids? Did anyone say "wow, we need to prevent police from having access to guns"?? No, they said "wtf, that guy is a goddamned idiot"

So, this is your great reveal? This is your solution to lowering that 30,000 gun deaths a year figure?
Ridicule people who left guns lying around and people died?
I keep waiting for you guys to say something sensible, and you never do.
Also, you seem to grossly underestimate the role the law plays in our world. Yes, I agree it's important to change the culture. But most Americans already want tighter restrictions on guns. Laws should reflect the beliefs and feelings of the citizens to some extent. It's the politicians, in the pockets of the NRA, who are lagging behind. Of course, we need to change the culture even more, to get people to understand the personal responsibility involved in owning a gun. But the law needs to catch up now.





The only way I can see to make a mandatory gun safety course would be to issue a license that is required to own firearms.

I doubt that will happen.

Please explain to me why mandatory training and a license should not be required to own a gun.
I don't understand why, if you want to own a potentially lethal object such as a gun, you shouldn't have to demonstrate that you are able to use it responsibly.
Why do you have the right to own a gun irresponsibly?
Responsibilty is not just something you can ask or tell people to have more of.
Responsibility should be earned and demonstrated, and this process should be enforced by law. Can't show you can use and keep a gun responsibly? Then you don't get to have one.
What is the problem with this?

[allegro]

Please explain to me why mandatory training and a license should not be required to own a gun.
I don't understand why, if you want to own a potentially lethal object such as a gun, you shouldn't have to demonstrate that you are able to use it responsibly.
For the record, as I've explained in this thread already, this ALREADY IS a requirement in several states and municipalities. It's a requirement in the city where I live. Our U.S. Constitution specifies state's rights and the Feds don't have many nationwide regulations related to firearms; Republicans and Libertarians are REALLY against trodding upon state's rights, as is the SCOTUS, because our national Constitution protects state's rights so it's complicated.

And, yes, the NRA sucks. The NRA exists solely to collect money to line their own pockets; if we had nationwide sensible regulations that could be enforced, the NRA would no longer be necessary and the NRA operates on fear so they have to generate a lot of fear to generate more cash. So if they spin a story, "requiring safety courses impedes our rights under the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution" and they spread that fear as a "slippery slope," it's amazing how many people get all freaked out, "well, but the NRA says this is BAD and that the Nazi Government is gonna come take my guns!"

In Chicago, Toni Preckwinkle, the Cook County Board President, just imposed a $25 tax on gun licenses (Chicago requires gun safety courses to obtain a gun license, btw), which would contribute to the cost of gun violence. The NRA is fighting that fee, saying that the fee is impeding the 2nd Amendment. Never mind that there is already sales tax, and never mind that the gun already cost a lot of money; no, the NRA will fight ANYTHING just to stay in existence, "see, this is why we're here! So send us some money or you'll all lose your NRA protection!" They're like a really corrupt labor union.

So when boat-boy Satyr says "I doubt that will happen," he's most likely saying that because we have the above-mentioned complications and opposition. Yes, it's logical. Yes, it's not unlike a license to drive a vehicle. But, this country isn't logical because we have these crazy corrupt money-hungry rich lobbyists who send lots and lots of campaign money to politicians.

[DigitalChaos]

The purpose of the video was not to argue about the term "accidentally." It was to demonstrate that the culture is now to a point where guns are offered as birthday present to 5-year olds.

If you paid more attention to the content and not the form ..
I don't give a fuck about your constitution. If the constitution would give you the right to steal from those who have stolen from you, you sound like the type of person who would do it just because you have been granted this right even if it's morally wrong.

You guys sound a like a bunch of robots incapable of knowing the difference from what's right and what's wrong.

The right to bear arms so kids can shot each other. How fucking pathetic.
Gun freaks ..
Hahahaha
1- kids being given guns... That's always existed. The amount of it has actually been slowly shrinking. Yet, you are somehow capable of seeing a handful of articles on the topic and proclaiming a growth. Ride that irrational fear train!

2- Your comments about the Constitution are incredibly juvenile. You've lost all potential credibility on any topic that concerns law. Pick up a history book and learn why the Constitution is incredibly important and not at the whim of irrational emotion. Learn why every part of it is important. I understand that we live in a time where both major political parties try to selectively ignore parts of it but its existence is what stops that from happening in most cases.

[DigitalChaos]

So, this is your great reveal? This is your solution to lowering that 30,000 gun deaths a year figure?
Ridicule people who left guns lying around and people died?
I keep waiting for you guys to say something sensible, and you never do.
Also, you seem to grossly underestimate the role the law plays in our world. Yes, I agree it's important to change the culture. But most Americans already want tighter restrictions on guns. Laws should reflect the beliefs and feelings of the citizens to some extent. It's the politicians, in the pockets of the NRA, who are lagging behind. Of course, we need to change the culture even more, to get people to understand the personal responsibility involved in owning a gun. But the law needs to catch up now.

No, it's just one of the multiple answers specific to the issue of safety culture. My wider view on gun crime focuses on enforcing existing laws, ending the drug war, focusing on ALL crime... largely through fixing poverty and education.

[DigitalChaos]

For the record, as I've explained in this thread already, this ALREADY IS a requirement in several states and municipalities. It's a requirement in the city where I live. Our U.S. Constitution specifies state's rights and the Feds don't have many nationwide regulations related to firearms; Republicans and Libertarians are REALLY against trodding upon state's rights, as is the SCOTUS, because our national Constitution protects state's rights so it's complicated.

And, yes, the NRA sucks. The NRA exists solely to collect money to line their own pockets; if we had nationwide sensible regulations that could be enforced, the NRA would no longer be necessary and the NRA operates on fear so they have to generate a lot of fear to generate more cash. So if they spin a story, "requiring safety courses impedes our rights under the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution" and they spread that fear as a "slippery slope," it's amazing how many people get all freaked out, "well, but the NRA says this is BAD and that the Nazi Government is gonna come take my guns!"

In Chicago, Toni Preckwinkle, the Cook County Board President, just imposed a $25 tax on gun licenses (Chicago requires gun safety courses to obtain a gun license, btw), which would contribute to the cost of gun violence. The NRA is fighting that fee, saying that the fee is impeding the 2nd Amendment. Never mind that there is already sales tax, and never mind that the gun already cost a lot of money; no, the NRA will fight ANYTHING just to stay in existence, "see, this is why we're here! So send us some money or you'll all lose your NRA protection!" They're like a really corrupt labor union.

So when boat-boy Satyr says "I doubt that will happen," he's most likely saying that because we have the above-mentioned complications and opposition. Yes, it's logical. Yes, it's not unlike a license to drive a vehicle. But, this country isn't logical because we have these crazy corrupt money-hungry rich lobbyists who send lots and lots of campaign money to politicians.

You and I can agree pretty quickly on what will/won't work but we can definitely disagree on which of those items are right/wrong to adopt. :)

Leaving it to the states makes sense because 1- it allows us, as a country, to experiment and find the best answer instead of the diluted federal compromise. 2- one size fits all doesn't work for an issue that is so unevenly spread. I don't know what is right for someone 1 block away from me let alone 2000miles away.

The $25 gun tax focuses on guns (unlike sales tax). It's basically a sin tax. It's not being funded from the universal tax bucket because they want it to reduce gun purchases. Pretty easy to spin 2A infringement when you see that.

[allegro]

\Pretty easy to spin 2A infringement when you see that.
It's pretty "easy" for the NRA to spin 2A infringement on anything. The county has the right to tax whatever they want, so long as it is okay according to our state constitution. A "sin tax" - perhaps. But that's allowed, too. The county needs to get revenue wherever possible, and there's only two things you can't avoid: Death and taxes. ;)

Preckwinkle isn't using it to reduce gun purchases, because she knows that won't work that way. But Cook County Hospital (nka Stroger Hospital) incurs MILLIONS of dollars in costs related to uninsured shooting victims, and the County taxpayers have to pay those costs; imposing a tax on gun licenses is an attempt to recoup some of those costs in any way possible. Because Cook County is already pretty broke. And Cook County has a LOT of gun-related injuries (gangs).

[DigitalChaos]

It's pretty "easy" for the NRA to spin 2A infringement on anything. The county has the right to tax whatever they want, so long as it is okay according to our state constitution. A "sin tax" - perhaps. But that's allowed, too. The county needs to get revenue wherever possible, and there's only two things you can't avoid: Death and taxes. ;)

Preckwinkle isn't using it to reduce gun purchases, because she knows that won't work that way. But Cook County Hospital (nka Stroger Hospital) incurs MILLIONS of dollars in costs related to uninsured shooting victims, and the County taxpayers have to pay those costs; imposing a tax on gun licenses is an attempt to recoup some of those costs in any way possible. Because Cook County is already pretty broke. And Cook County has a LOT of gun-related injuries (gangs).
my post made way more sense before you replied!

I'm betting the hospitals wouldn't have a this problem if the other approaches to gun crime were taken (drug war, etc).

[DigitalChaos]

I ventured over to the Liberal subreddit to see what people were saying about the 5 year old accidentally shooting the 2 year old in relation to gun control.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Liberal/comments/1dj2vj/why_imo_we_need_more_gun_control_now/
The comments really sum up the future of any potential gun control.


My favorite:


What gun control laws would you propose that would have prevented this .22lr, single shot, bolt action rifle from being used to accidentally kill someone?
Magazine limits?
Assault Weapons Ban?
Banning barrel shrouds?
Universal background checks?
Ending the "gun show loophole"?
Mandatory firearms registration?
More in-depth background checks?
Background checks to purchase ammunition?
Banning the delivery of ammunition to a residence?

[Satyr]

So when boat-boy @Satyr (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2259) says "I doubt that will happen," he's most likely saying that because we have the above-mentioned complications and opposition. Yes, it's logical. Yes, it's not unlike a license to drive a vehicle. But, this country isn't logical because we have these crazy corrupt money-hungry rich lobbyists who send lots and lots of campaign money to politicians.

I'm assuming that you realize that the boat comment is pretty common among gun owners and is a jest about what to say when the Fed comes to confiscate or register your guns? "oh I lost them in an unfortunate boating accident".

Also when I say I doubt that will happen...its because there are already hundreds of millions of unregistered firearms in the US. I suppose you could try but I'd wager that you'd just create a huge black market for unregistered firearms. Any attempt to register those guns in any meaningful way would likely require force and would result in a large body count.

I don't like that people die. It sucks. I unfortunately don't see a solution to the problem that will work for the entire country.

I'm genuinely happy that you seem to be well informed on the subject though. Much better talking about the issue with someone that does more than spam the conversation with news articles about accidental discharges.

[allegro]

I'm assuming that you realize that the boat comment is pretty common among gun owners and is a jest about what to say when the Fed comes to confiscate or register your guns? "oh I lost them in an unfortunate boating accident"
No, actually, I've never heard that before! Now that's funny! (I'm into boating so I never associate boats and guns. Maybe I should, haha.)


Also when I say I doubt that will happen...its because there are already hundreds of millions of unregistered firearms in the US. I suppose you could try but I'd wager that you'd just create a huge black market for unregistered firearms.
True, that.

[Jinsai]

so a new GOP ad is bashing Obama for failing to pass the gun reform bill...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU12wu-bZOU

[Satyr]

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/middlefield_police_release_vid.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffd_1367619612 GRAPHIC. VIDEO OF THE SHOOTOUT.

Right in my own back yard......Who knows where that guy was going?

[Jinsai]

and to add to the discussion about how parents should think twice before giving guns to their unstable kids (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2319064/Noah-Crooks-Chilling-911-reveals-13-year-old-boy-admitting-tried-rape-shot-dead-mom-taking-away-video-game.html), I submit this, and then I walk away, shaking my head and saying "what the fuck?!"

[DigitalChaos]

and to add to the discussion about how parents should think twice before giving guns to their unstable kids (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2319064/Noah-Crooks-Chilling-911-reveals-13-year-old-boy-admitting-tried-rape-shot-dead-mom-taking-away-video-game.html), I submit this, and then I walk away, shaking my head and saying "what the fuck?!"
I really have very little sympathy for these stories. It's good that it makes the news so parents with similarly poor techniques can rethink things but... am I supposed to care that these people have eliminated themselves from society? Seems like a healthy thing for the rest of us. The weapon of choice doesn't matter either, this is just straight up Darwin award stuff.

[Elke]

Actually, it's not. If we had less laws and more actual darwinism, that kid is the fittest. We'd all be toast.

And on a more serious note: I'm disliking your tendency to spin 'personal responsibility' as 'it's their own fault'.

[Satyr]

Actually, it's not. If we had less laws and more actual darwinism, that kid is the fittest. We'd all be toast.

And on a more serious note: I'm disliking your tendency to spin 'personal responsibility' as 'it's their own fault'.

I have to question anyone that thinks that a 13 year old that tries to rape his mother then kills her is the fittest 13 year old. Thats seriously fucked up.

[DigitalChaos]

Actually, it's not. If we had less laws and more actual darwinism, that kid is the fittest. We'd all be toast.

And on a more serious note: I'm disliking your tendency to spin 'personal responsibility' as 'it's their own fault'.

it's not 100% perfect darwinism, but it's still darwinism. You don't have to be entirely eliminated from contributing to future life, just statistically impacted from doing so. The mother is no longer contributing additional children or parenting techniques. That child has massively limited his chances of doing either of those in the future as well.



Kid has intermittent explosive disorder
Kid has threatened to kill his mother but wasn't taken seriously
mother buys him a gun when he was 11
apparently gives him unrestricted access to the gun and ammunition
they buy him an incredibly violent game (rated for 18+)

They take away his game... his response is to try and rape his mother and then kill her.


Just think about the above for a second....

[DigitalChaos]

and here is a horribly tasteless joke for anyone who's played COD: the kid just wanted the ultimate comeback to the "i fucked your mother" comments that happen every 10 seconds

[Jinsai]

Wayne LaPierre wants to know "how many Bostonions wished they had a gun two weeks ago" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/04/wayne-lapierre-boston-marathon-bombings-guns-nra_n_3215449.html)

WHAT?!

[Elke]

Kid has intermittent explosive disorder
Kid has threatened to kill his mother but wasn't taken seriously
mother buys him a gun when he was 11
apparently gives him unrestricted access to the gun and ammunition
they buy him an incredibly violent game (rated for 18+)

They take away his game... his response is to try and rape his mother and then kill her.

I hope you're not basing this analysis of that Daily Mail tripe. In the Universe of the Sidebar of Shame, everybody's either an evil gay immigrant, or about to be raped and murdered by one.

But let me rephrase what you wrote, however inaccurate it probably is: a child is born with a brain deficiancy that makes him extremely unlikeable and difficult to raise, and a possibly incompetent but more likely poorly informed parent tries to pacify this child by giving it what it wants so it doesn't explode. This results in said child engaging in activities that make its condition worse, not better, and the death of its mother.

Recently, there was a highly mediatized trial in Belgium, where an adolescent was convicted for killing a number of toddlers and a caregiver, as well as a random old woman, in a killing spree. His parents had been begging for help since he was prepubescent, but he was never committed - as he should have been. He wasn't deemed mentally unfit to stand trial, or insane, and so he was convicted for several counts of murder.

There is plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of people who are not doing what they should do. The guilt in both these cases is not individual: these are not just two children doing something awful, they are products of this society. Personal responsibility is an extremely important concept, but it has to be tempered with a proper understanding of all the factors involved.

In other words: it's far too easy to mock these people and award them a Darwin award (which I still disagree with, btw), and disregard every person in this child's life who somehow, at some point, failed him.

[Satyr]

Wayne LaPierre wants to know "how many Bostonions wished they had a gun two weeks ago" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/04/wayne-lapierre-boston-marathon-bombings-guns-nra_n_3215449.html)

WHAT?!

If there were two heavily armed terrorists going around my home town blowing shit up and shooting at cops....I'd probably prefer to have a firearm than not?

[Elke]

And what you have done with it?

[DF118]

If there were two heavily armed terrorists going around my home town blowing shit up and shooting at cops....I'd probably prefer to have a firearm than not?

Go you, Rambo.

[Satyr]

And what you have done with it?

If they broke into my home while evading police....I'd consider shooting them?

[Satyr]

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/moh-boston-5_grande-594x409.jpg

[Jinsai]

so, what the fuck am I supposed to be seeing in that picture exactly?

[Elke]

It looks like a big-ass fly. One would need a firearm to kill that, as well, I suppose.

[DF118]

It's Satyr going all John McClane.

[Satyr]

so, what the fuck am I supposed to be seeing in that picture exactly?

A person in an apartment building taking pictures of two terrorists shooting at police. The item in the red circle is the third pressure cooker bomb.

[Dra508]

Wayne LaPierre wants to know "how many Bostonions wished they had a gun two weeks ago" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/04/wayne-lapierre-boston-marathon-bombings-guns-nra_n_3215449.html)

WHAT?!

A gun in my hand would not have stopped a kid from putting a bomb on a busy sidewalk.

A gun in my hand would not have found the kid in a boat.

A gun in my hand would not have prevented or shortened this tragedy.

LaPierre is an idiot.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-weisser/open-letter-to-wayne-lapi_b_3219807.html

What he said..

[DigitalChaos]

I love how people are mocking the "boston people which they had a gun" comment...
The biggest instance where this is true is during the lockdown and manhunt.

Here is a heavy libertarian interviewing his very liberal leaning brother who was one of the people in "ground zero" and got pulled out of his house:
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/ground-zero-watertown-massachusetts/
"I would have felt better if I had a weapon and been trained to use it"

[Jinsai]

I love how people are mocking the "boston people which they had a gun" comment...
The biggest instance where this is true is during the lockdown and manhunt.

Here is a heavy libertarian interviewing his very liberal leaning brother who was one of the people in "ground zero" and got pulled out of his house:
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/ground-zero-watertown-massachusetts/
"I would have felt better if I had a weapon and been trained to use it"

I'm not visiting a website with the word "libertarian" in the url.

The "Boston people wish they had a gun" comment is stupid for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that it is not illegal to own a gun in Boston
We could go into a further discussion about how owning a gun would not have protected anyone from being blown up by a bomb, and since there was no home invasion situation here where anyone could have actually defended themselves, the sentiment is really just gun-obsessed fantasy talk... but why bother when there is no law prohibiting the possession of a gun in the first place?

Wayne LaPierre's statement is sensationalism cashing in on a recent disaster, and it's more than a little ridiculous that it hardly even applies to a discussion about gun ownership. What makes it worse is the transparent hypocrisy of this asshole. In the same speech he admonishes the people lobbying for gun control for exploiting the Newtown shooting, and then he moves right along to exploit a recent tragedy to further his own agenda, even though it makes no sense.

[Satyr]

I'm not visiting a website with the word "libertarian" in the url.

The "Boston people wish they had a gun" comment is stupid for a lot of reasons, not least of which is that it is not illegal to own a gun in Boston
We could go into a further discussion about how owning a gun would not have protected anyone from being blown up by a bomb, and since there was no home invasion situation here where anyone could have actually defended themselves, the sentiment is really just gun-obsessed fantasy talk... but why bother when there is no law prohibiting the possession of a gun in the first place?

Wayne LaPierre's statement is sensationalism cashing in on a recent disaster, and it's more than a little ridiculous that it hardly even applies to a discussion about gun ownership. What makes it worse is the transparent hypocrisy of this asshole. In the same speech he admonishes the people lobbying for gun control for exploiting the Newtown shooting, and then he moves right along to exploit a recent tragedy to further his own agenda, even though it makes no sense.

You guys can call him an asshole idiot all you want. As long as he continues to do a great job defending 2A rights. I love the guy.

Continue to spew all the venom you want at him. It just serves to make the pro 2A crowd not want to compromise at all.

[allegro]

we don't need anybody to defend 2A rights. I know you THINK we do, because you don't know law and because people have convinced you that we do (based on unwarranted fear dished out by people who take advantage of people like you). Like Jinsai said, there is no reason why everybody in Boston didn't have a gun and didn't shoot at those guys, nothing prevented that; but, they didn't. These opportunistic attention whores like LaPierre will spin anything to get attention. It's nothing more than sensationalism. Guns or 2nd Amendment rights have NOTHING to do with the Boston Marathon bombers.

What IS important is the FBI's complete lack of intelligence relating to this plot. They'd been warned, they dropped the ball. Also, fuck the guns; why did Boston citizens get placed on a lockdown, which ended up thwarting the attempt to find these guys? It wasn't until the lockdown was lifted that somebody noticed the bleeding dude in the boat. If you want to go all Libertarian on this shit, then ponder THAT shit. There were some serious civil rights violations, there.

[DigitalChaos]

This will be interesting...
An outspoken libertarian is trying to organize an armed march in DC (where it is illegal) with at least 1000 people: https://www.facebook.com/events/252728144871259/
At the time of this post, there are 2400 people who claim they will attend.

And it sure is creating a lot of drama in the libertarian circles: http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/is-an-armed-march-on-washington-d-c-a-good-idea-for-liberty/

[Jinsai]

So courageous.

Whatever. Anyone who has actually used Facebook knows how much that attendance number means. Maybe twenty people will show up and be promptly arrested, and the rest of the world can go back to not giving a fuck.

[DigitalChaos]

So courageous.

Whatever. Anyone who has actually used Facebook knows how much that attendance number means. Maybe twenty people will show up and be promptly arrested, and the rest of the world can go back to not giving a fuck.
You kidding me? A small army of armed people marching DC could become a wet-dream for the gun-control people. It might actually breath life into the shriveled abortion that they already threw on the table. Worst case, you charge all of the people willing to do this with a felony and take away their access to guns.

I sympathize with them and their anger but this just seems like a bad idea that will result in the opposite of what they would like. They are going to need way more than 1000 people for this to have a chance to turn out positively for them. Maybe I am wrong... I just looked at their map and plan and they might actually be pull something off (who knows how the media will spin it though). It seems (without verifying legal boundaries) that they are marching through a "legal" area and stopping short of the "illegal" area. The leader plans to step over to test the waters. Maybe... just maybe... but they also just showed their entire hand to the DC law enforcement who knows exactly what they will do.

[miss k bee]

I cant believe they have children guns in America. Available in light pink and light blue, specially sized. Was reading an article at work where a 5 year old boy accidently shot his 3 year old sister. He had gun training. ffs

[DigitalChaos]

I cant believe they have children guns in America. Available in light pink and light blue, specially sized. Was reading an article at work where a 5 year old boy accidently shot his 3 year old sister. He had gun training. ffs
On one extreme side, you have people who are not very responsible. On the other side, you have people who are so over the top with safety that they produce poorly adapted children.

A gun is a tool. You teach it, you respect it. Pretending that they don't exist hinges on the naive concept that you can also control their entire world.

They made a book for people like you: http://www.fiftydangerousthings.com/

There are tons of kids who are given guns designed for children. It's a great way to start the learning process. Very few of them have issues (probably due to more responsible parenting).


You probably think it is insane to give a toddler a knife but there are plenty of cultures who do just that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VacaaN75o

[Sutekh]

Yeah but is your culture as a whole capable of consistently producing kids with a well adjusted attitude to weapons?

You can't reject the UK gun control model because it's from a different state and then cite other culture's successes with dangerous objects. Well you can - but either you do or you don't!

[DigitalChaos]

Yeah but is your culture as a whole capable of consistently producing kids with a well adjusted attitude to weapons?

You can't reject the UK gun control model because it's from a different state and then cite other culture's successes with dangerous objects. Well you can - but either you do or you don't!
considering the incident rate is fractions of fractions of a percent... yes
Who knows how long that will last. We have a growing problem with individual responsibility falling out of popularity.

[Sutekh]

The incident rate may be fractions of fractions of a percent, - but why are you suggesting it doesn't signify a problem? It's still anomalously higher than other Western states. Your country does have a problem & it will do no good to phrase things in a way that plays it down

For the record I'm not anti-private ownership of deadly weapons, but kids don't need to know IMO. I know it's awful when Euros tell you what your problem is, but playing down the dangers of weapons is IMO part of the problem

[allegro]

"Children's Guns" are only for hunting, since children cannot legally own anything except a single-shot rifle. In rural areas, children go hunting with their parents. It's often for necessity, as they EAT what the hunt. In rural areas, this is viewed no differently than a fishing pole. Some children learn how to bow-hunt instead of hunting with a rifle.



DigitalChaos: That march seems kinda impotent, since DC's "strict gun laws" ended with the Heller decision. Seems like stirring up the pot just to have fun, to me. While it's bullshit that this guy was allegedly arrested for "dancing in public," this seems more like a personal vendetta than a real issue. Concealed carry is of course a real issue but this isn't the way to get it done. MOST states have conceal carry laws, handed down by Federal appellate courts.

For the record: I am actually FOR concealed carry laws, for what it's worth.

[DigitalChaos]

The incident rate may be fractions of fractions of a percent, - but why are you suggesting it doesn't signify a problem? It's still anomalously higher than other Western states. Your country does have a problem & it will do no good to phrase things in a way that plays it down

For the record I'm not anti-private ownership of deadly weapons, but kids don't need to know IMO. I know it's awful when Euros tell you what your problem is, but playing down the dangers of weapons is IMO part of the problem

What @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) just said but also: What is this "incident rate" you are referring to as it concerns children being given guns? Guessing you are lumping together the entire "gun problem" to make your point. I'd be willing to bet that kids who grow up with guns are much more likely to NOT become a statistic than gun owners who didn't grow up with them.

[allegro]

I'd be willing to bet that kids who grow up with guns are much more likely to become a statistic than gun owners who didn't grow up with them.
Wait, what?

My ex husband owned guns and my former step-children grew up with those guns. He took them to the firing range and had them fire the guns and taught them gun safety when they were young and they knew the guns were forbidden territory and messing with them came with dire consequences (the wrath of my ex husband was no light matter). And they fully understood that guns were dangerous and were to be respected, just like my ex-husband's motorcycles. And the kids grew up to have zero interest in guns. One of them became a doctor. It seems to me that the kids who happen upon a gun and shoot some other kid in the house with the gun or take the gun to Show-n-Tell in school weren't taught about guns? They don't know the difference between a real gun and a toy? That being said, hunting accidents happen all the time. The 5-yr-old who shot another kid isn't much different than other hunting accidents. But, neither is it much different than the thousands of children who are killed each year when their own parent runs them over with the car in the driveway. It's sad, sure. But, shit happens. If that 5-yr-old went to gun safety classes and still shot his sister, that kid was - sadly - not ready for hunting. I think FIVE is way too young for that shit but I don't live in the sticks and I don't hunt for food so don't ask me.

[DigitalChaos]

@DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598): That march seems kinda impotent, since DC's "strict gun laws" ended with the Heller decision. Seems like stirring up the pot just to have fun, to me. While it's bullshit that this guy was allegedly arrested for "dancing in public," this seems more like a personal vendetta than a real issue. Concealed carry is of course a real issue but this isn't the way to get it done. MOST states have conceal carry laws, handed down by Federal appellate courts.

For the record: I am actually FOR concealed carry laws, for what it's worth.

The guy isn't even from DC (nor are most attendees). It is definitely to draw attention. Its more of a national statement of "we wont give them up." I can sympathize with civil disobedience and extending as many middle fingers to authority but... chances of a net-positive seem slim.

I wish California had better CCW laws. Unless you live in a rural area you are out of luck. Such is the plight of a libertarian who lives around San Francisco :)

[Sutekh]

What @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) just said but also: What is this "incident rate" you are referring to as it concerns children being given guns? Guessing you are lumping together the entire "gun problem" to make your point. I'd be willing to bet that kids who grow up with guns are much more likely to become a statistic than gun owners who didn't grow up with them.

No, I was talking about the same incident rate you were (relating to children). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you were making a hasty leap to the first apparent way of dismissing what I posted ;)

I don't understand the last sentence of your post, sorry. edit - on second thoughts I do, it just doesn't seem like the point I'd imagine you'd be making

[allegro]

thanks, I thought it was just me!!! :o

[DigitalChaos]

Wait, what?

My ex husband owned guns and my former step-children grew up with those guns. He took them to the firing range and had them fire the guns and taught them gun safety when they were young and they knew the guns were forbidden territory and messing with them came with dire consequences (the wrath of my ex husband was no light matter). And they fully understood that guns were dangerous and were to be respected, just like my ex-husband's motorcycles. And the kids grew up to have zero interest in guns. One of them became a doctor. It seems to me that the kids who happen upon a gun and shoot some other kid in the house with the gun or take the gun to Show-n-Tell in school weren't taught about guns? They don't know the difference between a real gun and a toy? That being said, hunting accidents happen all the time. The 5-yr-old who shot another kid isn't much different than other hunting accidents. But, neither is it much different than the thousands of children who are killed each year when their own parent runs them over with the car in the driveway. It's sad, sure. But, shit happens. If that 5-yr-old went to gun safety classes and still shot his sister, that kid was - sadly - not ready for hunting. I think FIVE is way too young for that shit but I don't live in the sticks and I don't hunt for food so don't ask me.

One of these days I will proofread my posts before I hit submit... I 100% agree. That should have been "those who grow up with guns are more likely to NOT become a statistic"

Becoming a parent has made me realize how much we are screwing our kids up with our obsessive focus on safety. My kid is only 3 but I already see the impact of that style of parenting on what children are capable of (or incapable of handling).

[allegro]

I wish California had better CCW laws. Unless you live in a rural area you are out of luck. Such is the plight of a libertarian who lives around San Francisco :)
Um, don't be too sure about that (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/06/cook-county-concealed-car_n_3224187.html). :)

[miss k bee]

Children in rural communites may learn to shoot but from the age of 4 and 5?? That is crazy. From the age of 8 to 10 maybe.

Here is the story;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22386105

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-30/national/38932426_1_gun-control-rifle-front-porch

[DigitalChaos]

Um, don't be too sure about that (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/06/cook-county-concealed-car_n_3224187.html). :)
Interesting. In CA they do it different. If you have a CCW permit for one county it allows you to travel with the concealed weapon to any county in California. Same thing when SF had an outright ban on all guns; if you didn't actually live in SF, it would have been ok to have a weapon on you (or something along those lines).

I see the pros and cons of both methods. I wonder which one works better in practice.

[allegro]

Here is the story;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22386105
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-04-30/national/38932426_1_gun-control-rifle-front-porch
Yeah, that was linked here last Thursday (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1318-Gun-Talk-News-Laws-etc?p=84468#post84468).

I don't understand 5, either, but I'm not a hick in the sticks. However, I've been killing fish via a fishing pole since I was 5, so I guess to these people it's about the same thing.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31952727/ns/us_news-life/t/many-states-young-kids-may-hunt-alone/#.UYmqFLWsh8E


Full disclosure: MY OWN COUSIN SHOT HIS BEST FRIEND WITH A HAND GUN when they were in junior high school (7th and 8th grade). They "found" my cousin's friend's dad's gun (I can fully assure you that my uncle - also my Godfather - didn't know shit about guns, never owned one EVER) and I dunno wtf happened but my younger cousin ACCIDENTALLY shot his own best friend. Because they didn't know it was loaded. His friend is still alive, THANK GOD, but you can be SURE that neither of the dumbasses knew ANYTHING about guns. This was in fucking STERLING HEIGHTS, MICHIGAN, also known as "Sterile Whites," which was, back, then, a really boring upper-middle-class suburb of the Detroit area where NOTHING ever happened. Back then, we were literally surrounded by cows and corn fields. The most exciting thing that ever happened to us is when they built Lakeside Mall. Oh, wait, my best friend's high school boyfriend got high on Dust and stabbed his neighbor to death. But that's probably because boredom leads to drugs. Write that down, kids, it's important.

[DigitalChaos]

Yea, I'm not buying my kid a gun at 5. Mayyyyybe I'll bring him to a range but I'm guessing that'll be 8-10yo at the earliest. I live in a very urban area though. The only thing he *needs* a gun for at that ages is if society collapses and his parents are unable to defend him (if you scoff at this then read the history of the 1906 quake). I'm ok, statistically, waiting for him to get older.

If you are rural and the situation is sane with "fishing pole" then it's fine with "gun". Just gotta be more careful as the parent.

[DigitalChaos]

Full disclosure: MY OWN COUSIN SHOT HIS BEST FRIEND WITH A HAND GUN when they were in junior high school (7th and 8th grade). They "found" my cousin's friend's dad's gun (I can fully assure you that my uncle - also my Godfather - didn't know shit about guns, never owned one EVER) and I dunno wtf happened but my younger cousin ACCIDENTALLY shot his own best friend. Because they didn't know it was loaded. His friend is still alive, THANK GOD, but you can be SURE that neither of the dumbasses knew ANYTHING about guns. This was in fucking STERLING HEIGHTS, MICHIGAN, also known as "Sterile Whites," which was, back, then, a really boring upper-middle-class suburb of the Detroit area where NOTHING ever happened. Back then, we were literally surrounded by cows and corn fields. The most exciting thing that ever happened to us is when they built Lakeside Mall. Oh, wait, my best friend's high school boyfriend got high on Dust and stabbed his neighbor to death. But that's probably because boredom leads to drugs. Write that down, kids, it's important.
Jesus... The only gun incident in my family is with a great grandfather. He was a NY mounted policeman. His gun was on a locker and discharged into his temple. Completely blinded him. He went on to start the first organization for the blind in NY while working a newspaper stand downtown.


edit: here he is!
http://i.imgur.com/BpwcVxU.jpg

[allegro]

DigitalChaos: Wow, that's awesome!!!

[DigitalChaos]

Quality trolling within the libertarian circles: http://dcist.com/2013/05/libertarians_plan_another_gun-totin.php

[elevenism]

I just CAN NOT figure out where i stand on this issue.
i'm bipolar...diagnosed in 96 or so, before it was the en vouge diagnosis. I am also a recovering alcoholic...i used to drink at least a liter of vodka a day...EVERY DAY.
SO i guess the bottom line is if i had a gun, SOMEONE would have been shot by now.
I've steered clear of them because i KNOW i'm throwed like a football.
I don't want people like me having guns.
But i also don't want any of our rights infringed. It's a slippery slope.
But i know one thing we need for sure...universal background checks, better background checks. And it's sad to me that we couldn't pass the bill for background checks when i was seeing polls where 80 something percent of REPUBLICANS supported the background checks! They just vote along party lines. Period.
I think that the real issue here is that our government is BROKEN and it will be damn near impossible to fix it.

I am SO tired of this issue though...that's why ive been ets'n it instead of facebookin' it lately.

[Sutekh]

Facebook = "oh wow, everyone I went to school with is either a nazi, a commie or believes in alien reptiles"

[Dra508]

Jesus... The only gun incident in my family is with a great grandfather. He was a NY mounted policeman. His gun was on a locker and discharged into his temple. Completely blinded him. He went on to start the first organization for the blind in NY while working a newspaper stand downtown.


edit: here he is!
http://i.imgur.com/BpwcVxU.jpg
GTFO

My family gun story was my grand dad was a NYC cop and he never discharged his weapon. He hit a guy in the head with the butt of the pistol once. Guy robbed a store and ran right into G'Pa on the street.

Here he is:
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/Inthebox94/gpa.jpg (http://s140.photobucket.com/user/Inthebox94/media/gpa.jpg.html)

[DigitalChaos]

GTFO

My family gun story was my grand dad was a NYC cop and he never discharged his weapon. He hit a guy in the head with the butt of the pistol once. Guy robbed a store and ran right into G'Pa on the street.

Here he is:
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r9/Inthebox94/gpa.jpg (http://s140.photobucket.com/user/Inthebox94/media/gpa.jpg.html)

Guessing they were a few decades apart in their work but how awesome would it be if they worked together? I've done some family tree tracing back to 500AD and there are lots of interesting coincidences like that. Hell, I have a relative who came over on the mayflower. There was another guy on that ship that fell overboard. He was lucky and grabbed onto a trailing rope. If that rope wasn't there, we wouldn't have Bush presidencies, Sarah Palin, Franklin D Roosevelt, or Joseph Smith (mormonism).
kinda crazy to think about!

[DigitalChaos]

So, DEFCAD released the 100% 3D printed single shot .38 recently. Seems the government is angry about it and the US DDTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_Defense_Trade_Controls) is "claiming control" of the information and removing it from public consumption http://defcad.org/liberator/

Meanwhile, the Streisand Effect goes into full throttle for a little 2MB file. The seed count of various torrent locations is climbing very rapidly. A 2nd amendment issue just got attached to a 1st amendment issue.


http://i.imgur.com/Wh9HsW5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dnSugKO.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drPz6n6UXQY

[Satyr]

So, DEFCAD released the 100% 3D printed single shot .38 recently. Seems the government is angry about it and the US DDTS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_Defense_Trade_Controls) is "claiming control" of the information and removing it from public consumption http://defcad.org/liberator/

Meanwhile, the Streisand Effect goes into full throttle for a little 2MB file. The seed count of various torrent locations is climbing very rapidly. A 2nd amendment issue just got attached to a 1st amendment issue.


http://i.imgur.com/Wh9HsW5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dnSugKO.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drPz6n6UXQY

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these guys get branded terrorists.

[DigitalChaos]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if these guys get branded terrorists.
Seems unlikely. It looks like they are just going to try and go after the export angle. Hell, they aren't even accusing them yet... just saying that it needs to come down and be under the "control" of ITAR until they do decide.

Here is the text of the notice:
http://i.imgur.com/4OPjbJ4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qbsc5aZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q1Qocm2.jpg

Cody is a law student. So, I am really anxious to see how everything plays out.

[Jinsai]

This is all fun and games, until somebody uploads a "day after" pill for 3D printer.

[Satyr]

Seems unlikely. It looks like they are just going to try and go after the export angle. Hell, they aren't even accusing them yet... just saying that it needs to come down and be under the "control" of ITAR until they do decide.

Here is the text of the notice:
http://i.imgur.com/4OPjbJ4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qbsc5aZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q1Qocm2.jpg

Cody is a law student. So, I am really anxious to see how everything plays out.

Have you ever seen Die Hard 2?

"Luggage? That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines here and it costs more than what you make in a month!"

The only pieces of metal in this gun that appear to be metal are the firing pin and the bullet/casing.

[DigitalChaos]

Have you ever seen Die Hard 2?

"Luggage? That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines here and it costs more than what you make in a month!"

The only pieces of metal in this gun that appear to be metal are the firing pin and the bullet/casing.

There is also a functionless 6oz metal plate for the purposes of not being an illegal "undetectable" gun. You could fill that spot with Diane Feinstein's tears and it would function the same.

But yea, I remember that diehard quote. Bruce Willis didn't want to say it because it was BS but they made him. The media started panicking about Glocks shortly after that. That type of gun never existed and a Glock 7 would have been some sort of curtain rod or something with his numbering system.

It's similar to the Black Talon hollow points that became "armor piercing" when the media heard about them. I'm amazed that people are flipping their shit about this crappy 1-shot zip gun when a printable AR-15 lower has been available from DEFCAD for a long time. I guess the AR-15 lower fear doesn't kick in because most are unaware that the rest of the gun can be purchased by anyone else without any sort of check or regulation.

Fucking hilarious! It really does sum up the entire gun control debate within the media and politicians.

[elevenism]

Facebook = "oh wow, everyone I went to school with is either a nazi, a commie or believes in alien reptiles"

lolz.
And for me, it's like "oh wow, it turns out everyone i know grew up to be a card-carrying hard right ultra-conservative prick."
They also believe that the president was born in kenya, and is a socialist/fascist muslim dictator in the making.
And i'm talking about DRUG people! I'm talking about poor struggling long haired musicians here!
Of course, part of it may be that i'm from TEXAS. (sorry about george w. bush. i think every texan should be forced to apologize for george w. bush.R

As far as the 3-D printable gun, i am torn between "Oh shit, that's utterly fucking terrifying" and "Oh shit, that's the coolest fucking thing i've ever seen."

[DigitalChaos]

That's how most of my high school friends turned out. 95% of my political arguments over the last decade have been against right-wingers.

And 3D printed guns are the best thing for the gun problem topic. It will force people to eventually give up on the gun control angle and focus on more productive approaches. Stopping the drug war, focusing on poverty and education, mental health, etc

[Jinsai]

And 3D printed guns are the best thing for the gun problem topic. It will force people to eventually give up on the gun control angle and focus on more productive approaches. Stopping the drug war, focusing on poverty and education, mental health, etc

Wait, so because you can print a single-shot, comparatively low powered weapon on a very expensive printer, that's going to end the war on drugs?

Gun fetishists love to claim that gun control legislation never accomplishes anything, but there's a reason you can't go into a Walmart and buy an uzi.

[DigitalChaos]

Wait, so because you can print a single-shot, comparatively low powered weapon on a very expensive printer, that's going to end the war on drugs?

Gun fetishists love to claim that gun control legislation never accomplishes anything, but there's a reason you can't go into a Walmart and buy an uzi.

Wait, so because you can print a single-shot, comparatively low powered weapon on a very expensive printer, that's a problem we need to legislate?

Apparently the answer is "yes" from the pro-gun-control side. So the question is: Will a complete inability to enforce information control cause these people to try other avenues of fixing the issue?

Do tell me how Walmart's product selection is going to impact the availability of a 2MB file on the internet. Did Walmart stop music piracy and save the old music industry? Did Walmart's lack of DeCSS on the shelves prevent people from copying DVDs? Did Walmart stop the spread of top secret documents belonging to governments around the world?

DEFCAD turned the 2nd amendment issue into a 1st amendment issue. Good luck trying to suppress the 1st amendment! :)

[Jinsai]

it's another thing that they will make illegal to trade on the internet. It's what the creator of this star trek prop wanted, and he wants it to happen while he screams out "freeeeeeeeeedom!!!!" This won't be the first thing that will be illegal to trade/download on the internet.

You're also intentionally missing the point about how gun control legislation HAS effectively banned uzis. That's something that was accomplished.

[DigitalChaos]

And as technology advances, it will become more apparent just how futile banning gun information really is. In no time we saw a high-cap magazine, AR-15, and a single shot zip gun. How long until we see more? How long until prices come down enough for this to become an issue? Those laws really stopped media piracy!

I can't wait for the NRA to form an equivalent to the RIAA/MPAA.

[Dra508]

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/05/08/open-carry-pro-gun-march-could-face-legal-hiccups-in-dc/

There's a difference between civil disobedience and violating local gun laws. I guess a civics lesson is in order.

[DigitalChaos]

I am also seeing TONS of people jump onto the "fuck government control" side the moment this became a 1st amendment issue. It's fucking brilliant. Every geek on the internet is joining in. I am even seeing old-timers from the 1960's Free Speech Movement join in.

[DigitalChaos]

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/05/08/open-carry-pro-gun-march-could-face-legal-hiccups-in-dc/

There's a difference between civil disobedience and violating local gun laws. I guess a civics lesson is in order.
I posted lots about this earlier. You are wrong about the difference. Civil disobedience IS violation of laws that you disagree with. I don't think it's going to be productive to gun rights and I'm certainly not going to join in. The toy gun march the day before (by a libertarian protesting the protest) should be hilarious though.

[Jinsai]

the interesting thing for me is that even according to the instructions, if the gun is not carefully assembled it can explode. I'm wondering how long it will take before someone blows their hand off trying to fire one of these plastic home-printed guns.

[DigitalChaos]

I want to see someone start doing metal casting (super easy) with a 3d printed gun. Much safer and they will last much longer.

[DigitalChaos]

I am going to just put this over in this thread for fun....

Homicides per 100k
http://i.imgur.com/Ayj53JB.jpg
sources:
http://www.albany.edu/~wm731882/future1_final.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/12/listening_to_the_latest_media.html
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1
DOJ website (currently down)

[Elke]

'Just for fun', because it's a bollocks graph?

I'm not going to judge the numbers, because I can't check that, but even if the numbers are correct - don't you think there are other factors at work than gun control?

[allegro]

There is an established correlation between alcohol prohibition and the increase in organized crime, as well as increased drug sales and the so-called "war on drugs" and organized crime. Bigger organized crime = bigger sales of illegal guns. The "legal" sales using gun control doesn't affect organized crime.

[Jinsai]

There is an established correlation between alcohol prohibition and the increase in organized crime, as well as increased drug sales and the so-called "war on drugs" and organized crime. Bigger organized crime = bigger sales of illegal guns. The "legal" sales using gun control doesn't affect organized crime.

The bullshit part of the graph is where it tries to correlate a rise in homicides with cherry picked instances of gun-control legislation. We all know that prohibition didn't work out well, we've seen gangster movies. Most of us know that the war on drugs is a similar issue. Not even the craziest gun advocates I know have tried to argue (until now) that a gun control law has directly resulted in a rise in homicides.

You can correlate anything to suit you and call it a "point" though.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18calq4ybym0sjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg
http://www.alyjuma.com/wp-content/uploads/Correlation-and-Causality.jpeg

[DigitalChaos]

@Jinsai (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) - Yea, a single graph is very ineffective at demonstrating such a large picture. The anti-union spin on it was definitely lame and indicative of potential cherry picking. Unfortunately, the gun-control people won't take the time to read a report like this: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

Do you think the "gun problem" is getting worse? If so, what are you basing it on?

[Jinsai]

Do you think the "gun problem" is getting worse? If so, what are you basing it on?

That depends on what we're defining as the "gun problem." If we're talking about people developing an obsessive fetish over amassing a personal arsenal, then yes, that's obviously getting worse (and increasingly obnoxious).

If we're talking about the problem of people becoming completely unreasonable about passing any new legislation that in any way applies to gun ownership, then yeah, we're seeing an alarming number of people who don't even like the idea of background checks popping up while loudly congratulating themselves for being patriots.

If we're talking about the disturbing number of people talking about how their personal arsenal is going to defend them from the tyranny of government, then yeah, that kind of insanity seems pretty new as well.

School and mass public "senseless" killings also seem to be happening a lot more frequently, so I'd say that's "worse" also. It's surreal how common this sort of thing is becoming.

[allegro]

There have been gun collectors since the invention of the gun. There's no evidence that legal gun ownership or gun collecting is getting "worse. People NOTICING it may be getting "worse." The biggest collector I know is a retired Chicago COP. None of his collection is for "protection." He just thinks they're all cool.

My mom says "this stuff" like mass killings "never used to happen" and then I point out examples, yes, it did. She just forgot or didn't pay much attention.

She never saw the public sale and legal ownership of these MILITARY-style guns or magazines in her younger days, no; that's one aspect that's definitely "worse."

[DigitalChaos]

School and mass public "senseless" killings also seem to be happening a lot more frequently, so I'd say that's "worse" also. It's surreal how common this sort of thing is becoming.
This is probably the only one that makes any sense considering the proposed laws and the rhetoric supporting them.
A better scope, based on law proposals, is "rate of gun deaths" and "rate of homicide"... what do you think about those?



here is the specific data for your mass shooting question:
It's not really changing. 2012 was certainly higher than normal, but only because two happened in the same year.
http://i.imgur.com/GMFsPPd.jpg

[DigitalChaos]

There have been gun collectors since the invention of the gun. There's no evidence that legal gun ownership or gun collecting is getting "worse. People NOTICING it may be getting "worse." The biggest collector I know is a retired Chicago COP. None of his collection is for "protection." He just thinks they're all cool.

My mom says "this stuff" like mass killings "never used to happen" and then I point out examples, yes, it did. She just forgot or didn't pay much attention.

She never saw the public sale and legal ownership of these MILITARY-style guns or magazines in her younger days, no; that's one aspect that's definitely "worse."
I think the noticing is due to the internet, 24hr news cycle, and the state of our political environment. Those things have definitely changed since then.

[allegro]

I don't think the political environment has changed. My mom survived WW II, the Cold War and Bay of Pigs, the McCarthy Era, Kent State, etc


I clearly remember this (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald's_massacre), I was cautious while eating at McDonalds for months.

[DigitalChaos]

Actually, I am wondering if age plays into it as well. Both of my parents insist that everything about the country (and even world) is growing worse. It happened over the last 6 or so years. Shortly before that they found religion as well... so maybe it's a bad example :)

[DigitalChaos]

I don't think the political environment has changed. My mom survived WW II, the Cold War and Bay of Pigs, the McCarthy Era, Kent State, etc
So what do you think is changing her perspective? I would really love to figure it out because it's a pattern with many people.

When I was referring to political environment, I meant the way the two parties completely fail to work together and fight like petulant children. It feels like things are much less... functional... starting when Obama took office. I don't remember it happening with Clinton. The Bush years were fucking horrible but Congress wasn't this bad. I wasn't as political before Bush though... i may be very wrong.

[allegro]

First point: Sensationalized shitty journalism and the Internet. Also, aging tends to increase fear because of increased feelings of vulnerability.

Second point: Agreed, but I don't think that led to more guns. The Nixon era was pretty fucked up and I remember the Vietnam war protests, I even saw one near the White House in 5th grade, but Hippies didn't like guns.

I could spend hours getting all nostalgic about how my childhood days were more "simple" etc but that would be ignoring the fact that mom and I lived through the '67 race riots, with TANKS rolling down the streets, and that we also had child molesters and child murderers in the 60s and 70s, and daily carnage from Vietnam was televised every night during dinner (bodies were shown and that hasn't happened since).

[DigitalChaos]

Definitely makes sense. Lots of people weren't alive or old enough to remember those days but plenty were. It's so weird how the recent past is forgotten.


daily carnage from Vietnam was televised every night during dinner (bodies were shown and that hasn't happened since).
Wouldn't want a massive public rejection of a US war again! People frequently ask why people want to see the gore pictures related to the news. This is one of the specific instances I cite as a reason we need it.

[DigitalChaos]

Cody Wilson (DEFCAD law student) talks about the government takedown of the 3D files. Dude could have acted a little bit more... alive. So long as we don't have an Alex Jones style maniac I guess it's all good. He seems like a smart and articulate guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkyDthh6AT0

[Jinsai]

It's not really changing. 2012 was certainly higher than normal, but only because two happened in the same year.

There were more than two mass shootings in 2012 (http://www.thenation.com/blog/171774/fifteen-us-mass-shootings-happened-2012-84-dead#), and unless that chart was created before the year ended, it is underreporting the death toll for that year.

Regarding the gun fetish thing, I'm not implying that it's entirely a new thing, but it's definitely more prevalent than it was in the past. It's true that gun ownership per household is actually on the decline, but unit gun sales are way up. http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/chart-day-gun-ownership-30-year-decline

And the "I'm a patriot don't tread on me and my second amendment god-given rights you commie pinko fuck" rhetoric is a bigger thing now, and the unmovable resistance to any new legislation (while treating even the suggestion as an act of treason) seems a fairly recent thing. Some guy watches Taxi Driver, shoots Reagan, and everyone's a-ok with passing new gun laws. Now, we have a strange epidemic of mentally ill people shooting up crowds, and the suggestion that we institute universal background checks and close gun-show loopholes is met with some kind of fire-crotched "from my cold dead hands you liberal nanny state motherfuckers!"

I'm not sure how much of the prevalence of this sort of thing you can chalk up to the internet and bad journalism. Regarding mass shootings, those always made the news. It's not like people didn't hear about Charles Whitman shooting people from that clock tower. It just seems to be happening with such regularity now that people almost seem jaded.

[allegro]

I'm not sure how much of the prevalence of this sort of thing you can chalk up to the internet and bad journalism.
See his question, then see my response. That's not what I said.

I believe the media hype spins a lot of the 2nd Amendment crap and helps spread the fear, as does Facebook. The biggest "don't take my guns, Obama!" shit I've seen was on Facebook.

Remember, most people didn't even have EMAIL when Reagan was shot.


Wouldn't want a massive public rejection of a US war again! People frequently ask why people want to see the gore pictures related to the news. This is one of the specific instances I cite as a reason we need it.
Yup, exactly.

[allegro]

I clearly remember this (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald's_massacre), I was cautious while eating at McDonalds for months.
Whoa, shit, man, this guy used an UZI in 1984!! He fired 257 rounds!!!

"Huberty, a survivalist, saw signs of what he thought was growing trouble in America, and believed that government regulations were the cause of business failures, including his own. He believed that international bankers were purposefully manipulating the Federal Reserve System and bankrupting the nation. Convinced that Soviet aggression was everywhere, he believed that the breakdown of society was near, perhaps through economic collapse or nuclear war. He committed himself to prepare to survive this coming collapse and, while in Canton, provisioned his house with thousands of dollars of non-perishable food and six guns that he intended to use to defend his home during what he believed was the coming chaos. When he moved from Ohio he left the food behind but brought the guns with him."

[Jinsai]

I believe the media hype spins a lot of the 2nd Amendment crap and helps spread the fear, as does Facebook. The biggest "don't take my guns, Obama!" shit I've seen was on Facebook.

The question is whether or not the internet is making this sort of thing more apparent, or is it exacerbating the issue.

I'd never heard of this McDonalds massacre (though I would have been really young when it happened). That's really intense though. He killed 21 people and wounded 19 more? That's an incredibly crowded restaurant (and we're not counting any of the people who presumably escaped unharmed). I don't think I've ever seen that many people in a McDonalds before.

[allegro]

Reports say 50 customers were in the restaurant, plus the employees, plus he picked off three little kids who arrived by bike. Back then, it wasn't uncommon for a McDonald's to be completely packed during certain times. I very rarely eat fast food these days so I cannot attest to current McDonald's crowds.

There were some pretty disturbing images in the newspapers (http://murderpedia.org/male.H/h/huberty-james-photos.htm), especially the dead children near their bikes just outside the McDonald's. Omarr Hernandez, the 11-year-old depicted in one photo, his dead body still on his bike, was hard to get out of your head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjpL8HfWiiY

[Elke]

I don't want to be dumber than I already am, but aren't guns getting more effective at killing?

[Hazekiah]

I was cautious while eating at McDonalds for months.

http://pondscienceinstitute.on-rev.com/symbols/Does_Not_Compute.jpeg

You can correlate anything to suit you and call it a "point" though.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18calq4ybym0sjpg/ku-xlarge.jpg


Well, THAT one actually makes a lot of sense.


I want to see someone start doing metal casting (super easy) with a 3d printed gun. Much safer and they will last much longer.

Not exactly what you're looking for...but damn close:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fna9WEO6BjE

[allegro]

http://pondscienceinstitute.on-rev.com/symbols/Does_Not_Compute.jpeg

Yeah, well, when you see bodies at McDonald's all day on TV for weeks and warnings about "copycat killers," that instinct shit is hard to turn off. On the other hand, I went on with my life and continued eating at McDonald's. The McDonald's food was more likely to kill me than a mass shooter.

[Sutekh]

lolz.
And for me, it's like "oh wow, it turns out everyone i know grew up to be a card-carrying hard right ultra-conservative prick."
They also believe that the president was born in kenya, and is a socialist/fascist muslim dictator in the making.
And i'm talking about DRUG people! I'm talking about poor struggling long haired musicians here!
Of course, part of it may be that i'm from TEXAS. (sorry about george w. bush. i think every texan should be forced to apologize for george w. bush.R


yes it is always a bit galling to hear a long haired dopesmoker in a tshirt saying "ABORTED CHRISTFUCK" (or whatever) going on about how liberalism ruined everything... when pretty much everything they enjoy and do is there as a result of progressives pushing for a more liberal and permissive society

[Hazekiah]

I went on with my life and continued eating at McDonald's. The McDonald's food was more likely to kill me than a mass shooter.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk

[allegro]

Meanwhile, 30 years later ...


I very rarely eat fast food these days so I cannot attest to current McDonald's crowds.

drift=off

[allegro]

Meanwhile, this is an interesting article that appeared on the cover of today's Chicago Tribune:

Gun sale loopholes can often put weapons in felons' hands; Single mom who bought weapon for convicted felon is now serving a four-year sentence (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-guns-straw-purchasers-20130512,0,1663831.story).

[DigitalChaos]

Meanwhile, this is an interesting article that appeared on the cover of today's Chicago Tribune:

Gun sale loopholes can often put weapons in felons' hands; Single mom who bought weapon for convicted felon is now serving a four-year sentence (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-guns-straw-purchasers-20130512,0,1663831.story).


Looks like Chicago Tribune has some sort of half paywall that prevents you from following that link directly. You can get around it by linking in from google but I'll save you all the time:



Gun sale loopholes can often put weapons in felons' handsSingle mom who bought weapon for convicted felon is now serving a four-year sentence
Kenneth Lee was a convicted felon who wanted a gun, authorities say. Darlene Hoover was a single mom with a clean record who needed cash.

So the two acquaintances from the South Side made a deal, according to prosecutors. For $200, Hoover drove about 40 miles to an unassuming strip mall in southwest suburban Plainfield to buy a semi-automatic handgun for Lee, lying on a federal form by claiming to be the owner.

It took nearly five years for the consequences of that illegal "straw purchase" to play out on a recent Chicago night. Armed with the blue steel .40-caliber, Lee shot at a man on the street, police said. As a result, Hoover now finds herself in prison serving a four-year sentence.

Deterring these covert gun purchases — a key way for criminals to get their hands on firearms — has proved to be a daunting task for law enforcement. Many straw purchasers see the opportunity as easy money and a victimless, paperwork crime. After a weapon recovered at a crime scene has been traced to the original buyer, most simply claim the gun had been stolen or lost, crippling any possible prosecution.

Straw purchasing has been at the forefront of the gun debate that has raged across the country since the Connecticut school massacre. As Hoover's case quietly and quickly moved through Cook County court, state and federal legislators have sought to stiffen penalties and close loopholes to try to clamp down on the crime. But measures in both Springfield and Washington have stalled amid heated opposition from gun advocate groups.

"It's not just a paper violation," Thomas Mahoney, supervisor of the gangs unit for the Cook County state's attorney's office, said of straw purchases. "It goes much deeper than that, and it can have real, dire consequences."

The gun trace

It was an unusually warm Saturday evening in January when Lee ran down a street in Chicago's South Shore neighborhood, raised the Smith & Wesson semi-automatic and opened fire on a man on the busy block, prosecutors alleged.

No one was hit by the three bullets, but a Chicago police sergeant witnessed the shooting and gave chase with other officers. Lee, who has past convictions for weapons and narcotics offenses, was apprehended after he ran into a house where he had been staying, police said.
Officers said they found the Smith & Wesson — the make of handgun most popular among Chicago's violent criminals, according to police — hidden under a pile of clothes in the basement. In a closet, police found 136 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition as well as a Tec-DC9 pistol with a high-capacity 30-round magazine, court records show.

In a city where daily headlines mark the tide of gun violence — 13 people were struck by bullets that weekend alone — it was an unremarkable shooting. Lee, a reputed Black Disciple gang member with a six-point star tattoo on his shoulder, was later indicted on attempted murder charges. He has pleaded not guilty and is free on bond while awaiting trial.
Tracing the gun's history, investigators discovered that Hoover bought the Smith & Wesson in June 2008 at The Gun Shop Inc. in Plainfield.

The month after Lee's arrest, police showed up at the two-flat home in the 7800 block of South Cregier Avenue that Hoover shared with her mother and 16-year-old daughter and took her in for questioning, records show.

Investigators caught a rare break. Within hours, Hoover, at the time a security guard at O'Hare International Airport, signed an admission that she had bought four guns in all for Lee on three separate occasions between 2007 and 2011. According to court records, she acknowledged making two of the purchases at the now-shuttered Plainfield gun shop and the other two at Leising's Firearms, a tiny, second-story shop tucked behind a gyros stand in south suburban Chicago Heights.

Lee fronted the money for the guns and paid Hoover $200 for each, prosecutors said. With each purchase, Hoover had to return to the gun shops a second time to pick up the weapons after clearing a background check and waiting period of several days. She then met Lee in a parking lot at the congested, six-corner intersection at 8300 S. South Chicago Avenue and handed over the weapons, according to prosecutors.

'Lost or stolen law'

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the federal agency that enforces gun laws, has called stopping straw purchases a "top priority."

Experts say it is impossible to know how many straw purchases happen given the shadowy world in which they occur. The University of Chicago Crime Lab, which studies how to reduce violence, is seeking a grant to look into illicit gun pipelines in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles and Boston.

According to an analysis by the U. of C. lab of data from a recent four-year period, most of the guns recovered by Chicago police that moved quickly from a legal sale to illegal use had been bought in Illinois gun shops. Such a short "time-to-crime" is a strong indicator of a straw purchase, experts say.

Chicago police and Cook County prosecutors have been pushing in Springfield for a "lost or stolen law" to close what they argue is a crucial loophole. The law would require gun owners to report a lost or stolen weapon within 72 hours of noticing it missing or face a possible felony charge.

The hope is that straw purchasers would be less likely to help out a friend if they know they have to report a gun missing. And multiple reports of a lost or stolen gun by individuals would help law enforcement detect a straw purchasing scheme. But the measure has been strongly opposed by the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights groups and is stalled in a legislative committee.

Steeper penalties for straw purchasers have also been proposed as part of federal legislation introduced in the wake of the school shooting in Newtown, Conn. Sen. Mark Kirk named part of one gun-control bill aimed at straw purchasing after Hadiya Pendleton, the 15-year-old Chicago honors student whose homicide in January became a national symbol of gun violence. But that measure failed to pass the U.S. Senate last month.

Impatient with the little progress on the legislative front, gun-control advocates are trying creative approaches to confront straw purchasing. Just two weeks ago, the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence sued a Mississippi pawnshop, gun trafficker and straw purchaser for helping get a firearm into the hands of a gang member who killed a decorated Chicago police officer in 2010.


The gun shops

From 2008 to 2012, Chicago police traced some 60 guns recovered at crime scenes to the two stores where Hoover made her purchases for Lee, according to police data.

The Gun Shop Inc. closed several years ago and has since been converted into a physical therapy center.

In Chicago Heights, Leising's Firearms is marked only by a small sign pointing visitors to a parking lot next to a vacant bottled water depot. Visitors are buzzed upstairs and must show their firearm owner's identification card before entering the cramped, well-kept shop, which is adorned with military paraphernalia and kitschy decorations, including a croaking plastic frog at the door.

Leising's owner politely turned Tribune reporters away during a recent visit. The former owner of The Gun Shop did not return phone calls seeking comment.

Gun shop owners find themselves at the front lines in stopping straw purchases and under increasing pressure to recognize the Darlene Hoovers who walk through the front door.

To help gun shops detect a straw purchaser, ATF and the National Shooting Sports Foundation have created tip sheets for gun sellers on how to spot questionable customers. Multiple gun purchases and cash transactions are among the red flags.

One suburban gun seller said some shops might ignore the advice and take the easy cash from a straw purchase, but he believes they would be a minority.

"Most legitimate, on the up-and-up businesses would rather cut their finger off than have a straw purchase linked to the store, especially if it's a homicide," said Tim Zegar, who works at Schrank's Smoke 'N Gun Shop in Waukegan.

A former police officer, Zegar uses those street smarts to size up customers at the family-owned business.

A hat tilted the wrong way, gang colors, tattoos or clothing to cover up tattoos give him pause. Zegar said he has denied a sale to customers without the required FOID card, only to have a different individual come in five minutes later to inquire about the exact same gun.

Any of those circumstances would make Zegar deny the sale.

"I just say, 'I am sorry. I am not going to sell to you,'" he said. "I have been called all kinds of names and that's OK. … We're under no obligation. This is a private business; we can choose who we sell to."

The straw purchaser

Law enforcement experts say most straw purchasers are motivated by a complicated set of factors. They typically have some sort of relationship — often romantic — with the felons who want the guns. They see the purchase as easy, quick cash, and know that if the police come knocking, they can lie and simply say they lost the weapon.

Many are surprised when confronted by police about the gun being used in a crime, sometimes years later.

"Some say it verbally," said Chicago police Sgt. Sam Dickerson, who oversaw Hoover's investigation. "You can see it (in their faces). It's the surprise or fear. ... They are the not the gang-banger type we usually encounter."

Hoover's attorney, Preston Bowie, maintained that Hoover signed her confession after police assured her she would then be able to go home. She was unaware that by admitting she had bought the guns for Lee, she was subjecting herself to a charge of gunrunning, a felony that can bring up to 15 years in prison, he said.

By the time he talked to her at the Cook County Jail, Hoover seemed shell-shocked, said Bowie, a retired Cook County judge.
"It was difficult for her to even talk about it with me she was so upset," Bowie said.

In several brief court appearances over the past two months, Hoover has shuffled into court with a glazed expression while dressed in a jail jumpsuit.
She declined an interview through her attorney, and her mother and several friends contacted by the newspaper would not comment.
In the gang-infested South Shore neighborhood where Hoover was raised, guns are a part of everyday life. Gang graffiti marks buildings on her block, and on nearby 79th Street, groups of young men loiter on corners and exchange gang handshakes. According to police statistics, 22 people have been shot to death in the South Shore community since the beginning of 2012.

Hoover, a graduate of St. Frances de Sales High School, received her firearms training certification in 1996 from Illinois regulators, allowing her to work as a security guard, records show.

As a single mom, Hoover struggled financially. At the time of her arrest, she also was her mother's sole support.

Authorities said Hoover was battling problems with alcohol and drugs and in need of money when Lee — a friend of her brother's whom she knew from the neighborhood — approached her.

In April, her lawyer successfully argued to have her bond lowered, but her mother still couldn't afford to pay, and Hoover did not want to take out another mortgage on their house.

"She decided she just wanted to get it over with," Bowie said of her decision to plead guilty. "(With) the details she told the police in her statement, there was not much she could do."

Hoover is scheduled to be released on parole in February 2016.

As for the other three guns she bought for Lee, authorities said, the whereabouts of two of them remain unknown.

Mahoney, the gang crimes prosecutor, said the next time those weapons surface could be at a crime scene — and that should be a cause for alarm.

"The worst case scenario, they're used to kill somebody," he said.

[thelastdisciple]

Fuck......another one... at a god damn Mother's Day parade.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/12/us-usa-shooting-neworleans-idUSBRE94B0D720130512

[allegro]

Looks like Chicago Tribune has some sort of half paywall that prevents you from following that link directly. You can get around it by linking in from google but I'll save you all the time:
Thank you!!

[Piko]

Shooting at a mother's day parade in New Orleans... 19 Injured.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/12/us/louisiana-shooting/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook

[allegro]

Sounds like more gang bullshit.

[Satyr]

Sounds like more gang bullshit.

It's okay when its all part of the plan.

[allegro]

It's okay when its all part of the plan.
genocide? yeah that seems to be the case.

[Satyr]

genocide? yeah that seems to be the case.

Its unfortunate but completely true. Zero fucks are given. Wish it wasn't that way...but it is.

[DigitalChaos]

I really want to respond to the last 4 days of posts (I like your stuff allegro) but with work being crazy and the recent abusive govt news... gun control has gotta wait!

[elevenism]

I believe the media hype spins a lot of the 2nd Amendment crap and helps spread the fear, as does Facebook. The biggest "don't take my guns, Obama!" shit I've seen was on Facebook.

Hell yes, allegro, and i got so fucking sick of it that i can no longer stand facebook, especially since i live in Texas where i am apparently the ONLY DEMOCRAT.
Yes, im a card carrying pinko liberal bleeding-heart pseudo-socialist democrat. This makes me the oddball, even among long-haired dope smoking guitar playing hippies i grew up with. it is UTTERLY...FUCKING...BAFFLING.
Facebook would have us believe that Obama is an African Muslim dictator on par with Hitler. Another thing that annoys me about this is that many people, especially older people, think that anything they read on facebook is true.
I'm still not quite sure where i stand on this issues, but when every Republican votes along party lines against fucking background checks, it's pretty disheartening. These are the same assholes that voted AGAINST equal pay for women. I PERSONALLY have NEVER fired a gun, and i never plan to...i'm just tired of the debate and i don't know what the answer is. The fear mongering disgusts me though.

[DigitalChaos]

but when every Republican votes along party lines against fucking background checks, it's pretty disheartening. These are the same assholes that voted AGAINST equal pay for women.
Really, you are still going to vomit that left-wing rhetoric even after being corrected?

[DigitalChaos]

This is awesome. Never thought I would see a "How to Build Your Own AK-47" on Mother Jones.

MotherJones finally figures out how easy it is to LEGALLY build a gun while bypassing all background checks, registrations, etc... even in California.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/ak-47-semi-automatic-rifle-building-party
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBXKYtD-AHs

[Deepvoid]

Homeland Security reportedly warns 3D-printed guns are "impossible" to contain.

(http://techcrunch.com/2013/05/23/homeland-security-reportedly-warns-3d-printed-guns-are-impossible-to-contain/)The solution: universal searches. “The only security procedure to catch [the 3D firearms] is a pat down. Is America ready for pat-downs at every event?”

[DigitalChaos]

These are showing up around Seattle and are pissing off all the right people (anyone wanting to control marriage or guns):

http://i.imgur.com/RtvbLzv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YcbfW53.jpg

http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/22/gay-rights-and-gun-rights-linked-in-seat

[elevenism]

That's how most of my high school friends turned out. 95% of my political arguments over the last decade have been against right-wingers.

And 3D printed guns are the best thing for the gun problem topic. It will force people to eventually give up on the gun control angle and focus on more productive approaches. Stopping the drug war, focusing on poverty and education, mental health, etc

Corrected?
A. an ETS post isn't going to "correct" my passionate beliefs...that is downright laughable and
B.ummmm...see above. i thought we saw eye to eye on quite a few things

oh, you mean the background checks being "logistically impossible?" iraq and afghanistan were "logistically possible," i'd imagine making a fucking list should be within our grasp.

i do like your idea on the 3d printing thing though...hadn't thought of it that way.

[DigitalChaos]

Corrected?
A. an ETS post isn't going to "correct" my passionate beliefs...that is downright laughable and

At least you are honest!



B.ummmm...see above. i thought we saw eye to eye on quite a few things

oh, you mean the background checks being "logistically impossible?" iraq and afghanistan were "logistically possible," i'd imagine making a fucking list should be within our grasp.

i do like your idea on the 3d printing thing though...hadn't thought of it that way.
Well, when that very list (national registry) that makes background checks logistically possible is OUTLAWED in the very legislation that you are all gung ho about... hrmm yea that isn't in your grasp. Read the goddamned legislation next time instead of just news headlines and talking head soundbites of the people who you emotionally connect with.
Don't believe me? Won't read the bill yourself? Need someone on the left to say it before you believe it? Listen to the first 35 seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxXDfmDYOMs

[elevenism]

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, CURRENTLY.
But a minute or two in, Moore (who is, by the way, a lifelong member of the NRA) says "We register our cars...why not guns?"
Laws can be changed.
I have said this before...
I am the LAST person you want with a gun.
State registered Bipolar I with psychotic episodes, and YES, i have been charged with a violent felony.
I'm fucking nuts! I'm the prime example of why we need to be careful of WHO has guns.

I did like what you said about the 3d printer jobs though. At first i wanted to strangle the kid. But in the VERY near future, these 3d printer weapons could get WAY more sophisticated. This, as you said, MAY force the gvmt to focus on the CAUSES of gun crime...to treat the mentally ill, to lend a helping hand to the poor, and hand out harsher sentences to violent gun-toting felons who commit gun crimes. (in texas, it's illegal for them to carry guns. and i'm not one of them...i beat the case :)
) Our government here in texas is FUCKED UP. Rick Perry has been in office for like 20 fucking years (literally.) We have a republican super-majority in congress...so Perry does whatever the fuck he wants...on the cool. In '11, that meant slashing funding for indigent mental health care and drastically cutting education funding, to show off for his joke of a presidential campaign. And the hell of it all is, we had/have the fucking money!

Digital Chaos, i think this whole "gun debate" bullshit is a smokescreen to hide what's REALLY going on anyway. There's NEVER going to be any real gun control in the us, EVER. i think it's just something they bring out when they want us to "pay no attention to what's behind the curtain. Here. Argue about guns." Nevermind that the 4th and 6th amendments have been pretty much dead for quite some time.

[Deepvoid]

New school shooting. This one is on the campus of Santa Monica College in California. (http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Santa-Monica-College-Gunman-Shooting-210614151.html)

This is breaking news so not a lot of details just yet.

[DF118]

New school shooting. This one is on the campus of Santa Monica College in California. (http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Santa-Monica-College-Gunman-Shooting-210614151.html)This is breaking news so not a lot of details just yet.4/5 dead, reports are varying. See, this is why the US should just hurry the fuck up and ban guns.


These are showing up around Seattle and are pissing off all the right people (anyone wanting to control marriage or guns):http://i.imgur.com/RtvbLzv.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/YcbfW53.jpghttp://reason.com/blog/2013/05/22/gay-rights-and-gun-rights-linked-in-seatThese are retarded.

[allegro]

the US should just hurry the fuck up and ban guns.
the door-to-door confiscation of 300 million guns already owned by U.S. citizens will be fascinating to watch. maybe they can hire Star Wars storm troopers to do it, so it will be really entertaining. And maybe some Blade Runner rogue replicants.

[Jinsai]

yeah, I don't think it's realistic to even push for a nationwide gun ban, and I'm not sure I'd agree that it's a real solution.

That "we legalized gay marriage, now let's buy guns!" ad is maybe the single stupidest thing that I've seen in this thread. "We aren't going to take shit from any homophobes, because we have guns and we'll shoot them!" Seriously, who the fuck made these posters?

[DF118]

the door-to-door confiscation of 300 million guns already owned by U.S. citizens will be fascinating to watch. maybe they can hire Star Wars storm troopers to do it, so it will be really entertaining. And maybe some Blade Runner rogue replicants.

See, that's what I'm talking about. An issue with using replicants though- a nationwide collection will probably take some time, replants typically only live four years, so they might not necessarily be best suited. That's fine though.

[Deepvoid]

Here's something positive for a change ... at least for this guy.

Texas jury acquit man who shot dead Craiglist escort (aka prostitute) who refused to have sex with him (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2336859/Texas-jury-acquit-man-shot-dead-Craigslist-escort-refused-sex-him.html)

How is this not amazing? This guy enters into an illegal transaction by hiring a hooker on Craiglist. Then shes refuses to have sex with him, claiming it was not part of the deal. She decides to make a run for it, gets in a car with her "manager" and this model citizen starts shooting at the car, hitting her in the neck. I believe she was paralyzed for 6-7 months and then passed away.

Here's penal code http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/2/9/D/9.42

[DigitalChaos]

the door-to-door confiscation of 300 million guns already owned by U.S. citizens will be fascinating to watch. maybe they can hire Star Wars storm troopers to do it, so it will be really entertaining. And maybe some Blade Runner rogue replicants.

Hell, we dont have the resources to deal with confiscation from people who are already not allowed to have guns.

California has a list of 20,000 people who own 40,0000 guns but shouldn't (felons, mentally ill, etc). They can only get to about 10% of those people due to a lack of resources. Every year, 3,000 names get added to the list and they can only touch about 2,000.

California unable to disarm 19,700 felons and mentally ill people
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/29/local/la-me-california-guns-20130130




Not to mention how dangerous the job is of confiscating guns from people who don't want to give them up:

Calif. Agents Detail Risks Of Seizing Guns From Felons, Mentally Ill
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/05/04/calif-agents-detail-risks-of-seizing-guns-from-felons-mentally-ill/
I wonder how often they hear the "oops, I'm not sure where that gun is anymore" line.


It's not going to happen DF118

[DigitalChaos]

California is mad that their "smart" gun control laws have so many loopholes that entire businesses are created on them
Those "high-capacity" magazine bans are being easily circumvented with legal repair kits:
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/06/the_state_of_california_is_sui.php

[DigitalChaos]

Toy Gun Exchange: Elementary School Buys Back Toy Weapons From Students
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/toy-gun-exchange_n_3405158.html

what in the fucking christ?

[onthewall2983]

St. Louis, MO. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/st-louis-shooting-cherokee-business-incubator_n_3437328.html)

[DigitalChaos]

After gun bill’s defeat, it’s Democrats, not Republicans, paying the political price

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/13/wapo-gun-control-democrats-paying-price-not-gun-rights-republicans/

so good

[DigitalChaos]

How come nobody seems interested in gun control anymore? Not enough children dying in the news or what? Where is that genuine interest in fixing the issue?

Here is an interesting animation for those people who still think that the pro-gun control crowd is advancing.
The right-to carry over the years:
http://i.imgur.com/1ZtiRPn.gif

[Elke]

Right-to-carry and gun control demands are only related because they're both firearms issues. And that's it. One might not be opposed to a right-to-carry and still be for a shitload of gun control. So in this discussion, that graph is taking up a whole lot of bandwidth to make no point whatsoever.

[DigitalChaos]

Right-to-carry and gun control demands are only related because they're both firearms issues. And that's it. One might not be opposed to a right-to-carry and still be for a shitload of gun control. So in this discussion, that graph is taking up a whole lot of bandwidth to make no point whatsoever.
Gun rights are winning in just about all areas. This was just one example.

Assault Weapon Ban expired and is getting no traction, even during a time of solid Dem control.

Arizona, location of the Giffords shooting, allowed carry without a permit in 2010. Not a damn thing has changed in that state, despite her campaign. She has tied into the Newton shooting trying to campaign on that topic too. What's changed in schools? Other than Ohio allowing concealed carrying in some of it's schools...

What happened to that national conversation? Sure seems like that topic was given up on by the pro-gun-control crowd.

[Elke]

Gun rights is a ridiculous term. Guns don't have rights. And the guns are not winning. The national conversation is being had, every single day for 24 hours a day, on the various networks. That's where the arguments are being played out: in the coverage of minor crimes in a major way. Of course people aren't opposed to the idea of carrying a gun if, for the past thirty years, they've been made to feel unsafe even in their own homes.

As for Where are the gun-control people?, sadly they need to weight for another opportunity to start the conversation again. Just like the biggest shift in US citizen's opinions on gay rights (and actually existing cause) came about around the time media (news and other) started to pay more attention to violent crimes against homosexuals, as well as the problem of teen suicide. So basically: the next school shooting, the next poorly timed drive-by, the next Zimmerman... they'll be back. Because right now the entire conversation is dominated and framed by the paradigm of fear.

[DigitalChaos]

No disagreement on that. The need to leverage fear and emotion for so many aspects of our political environment frustrate the hell out of me.

Well, while we wait for the next high-profile shooting.... I recently came across this Freakonomics podcast about dealing with gun problems in the US. It's actually pretty good and they brought up an idea that I've never heard before. It's the idea that guns increase the rate of conflict (compared to fists, etc) because they are the great equalizer.
http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/02/14/how-to-think-about-guns-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/
The contents are similar to that huge Harvard study that was posted here a while back but much easier to digest. No surprise though. Freakonomics is always focused on data/statistics.

[allegro]

The knee-jerk fear reaction mobilizes people, but only for a short period of time (because people seem to have the attention spans of rats these days).

If the argument was primarily based on emotion, though, there seems to be zero national emotion for the 70+ people shot in Chicago during the 4th of July weekend, including a 5-yr-old.

But nobody is linking the "Heroin Highway" (http://www.chicagoreporter.com/news/2013/03/road-ruin) to the gang violence problems, because nobody in the 'burbs wants to admit that their nice clean white kids are driving to bad gang neighborhoods to buy heroin, thus creating the guns and violence problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZkimjJvhQ

[DigitalChaos]

The knee-jerk fear reaction mobilizes people, but only for a short period of time (because people seem to have the attention spans of rats these days).

If the argument was primarily based on emotion, though, there seems to be zero national emotion for the 70+ people shot in Chicago during the 4th of July weekend, including a 5-yr-old.

But nobody is linking the "Heroin Highway" (http://www.chicagoreporter.com/news/2013/03/road-ruin) to the gang violence problems, because nobody in the 'burbs wants to admit that their nice clean white kids are driving to bad gang neighborhoods to buy heroin, thus creating the guns and violence problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZkimjJvhQ

:(

Well, if the national media was running this story all day and we had Obama mentioning it, you can be damn sure we would have a response! One more data point for ending the drug war and fixing the education & poverty issues.

[Elke]

That's pretty much the point though: it doesn't fit the narrative. The reality of gun-related crime, what it really does and how it really affects the nation, is not included in the narrative of what guns do. Just like the reality of who gun carriers generally are, isn't included in the pro-control narrative either, which is already a counter-narrative, already deviating from what is generally acceptable to say.

The fourth estate is pretty much running the show on this (and a lot of other) topics, maintaining the status quo.

[Deepvoid]

A 17-year old shot a 40-year old man in the face. Prosecutors won't charge teen citing Stand Your Ground. (http://www.ocala.com/article/20130806/ARTICLES/130809792)

Yes, the teen was illegally carrying a gun. The attacker had a large stick.
You gotta face the reality that it's just a matter of time before a 17-year old will shoot a 16-year old during a school fight because the older teen was losing the edge in the fight and "fear for his life".

[allegro]

A 17-year old shot a 40-year old man in the face. Prosecutors won't charge teen citing Stand Your Ground. (http://www.ocala.com/article/20130806/ARTICLES/130809792)

Yes, the teen was illegally carrying a gun. The attacker had a large stick.
You gotta face the reality that it's just a matter of time before a 17-year old will shoot a 16-year old during a school fight because the older teen was losing the edge in the fight and "fear for his life".
YOU gotta face the reality that Florida is weird. And the rest of us citizens have no control over Florida. We have something called "state's rights."

[DigitalChaos]

There is a reason that Florida has it's own topic tag on Fark. FL is just all kinds of fucked up.
But I'll never understand why people want to constantly insert themselves into other people's business though. Whether it's imposing the federal government on states that they have no part in, or imposing military force on other countries. Just... fix your shit and then act as a role model for everyone else. Until then, I might as well be getting relationship advice from my 3x divorced uncle.

[DigitalChaos]

holy shit... Chicago just abolished their gun registry and permit system.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/11/us-usa-guns-chicago-idUSBRE98A15220130911

[Deepvoid]

Mass shooting at Washington Navy Yard.
(http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/dc-navy-yard-gunshots/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)
Allegedly, 2 shooters on the loose, 1 dead.
Unconfirmed 5 other person dead.

[DF118]

Mass shooting at Washington Navy Yard.
(http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/dc-navy-yard-gunshots/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)
Allegedly, 2 shooters on the loose, 1 dead.
Unconfirmed 5 other person dead.

12 deid the noo.

This would probably happen a lot less often if the US just hurried up and banned guns.

[DigitalChaos]

NYC Cops fire at an unarmed man in a crowded Times Square. They hit two bystanders. Then they bring the guy down with a taser.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/15/justice/times-square-police-shooting/

[mfte]

12 deid the noo.

This would probably happen a lot less often if the US just hurried up and banned guns.

Wouldn't it be more effective to just ban bad thoughts?

[Satyr]

Wouldn't it be more effective to just ban bad thoughts?

Would be about as effective as the war on drugs or prohibition.

[DigitalChaos]

Whatever, just ban illegal things. Why haven't we done this already? I'm so sick of people getting away with all these illegal things.




but seriously, I'm pretty surprised at how much progress the gun-rights group has been making. CHICAGO dumping their gun registry and permit system blew my mind when I saw that news.

[allegro]

CHICAGO dumping their gun registry and permit system blew my mind when I saw that news.
Chicago HAD to, per the S.C.O.T.U.S. decision. They also had to pass a conceal-carry law per the appellate court decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

http://www.wbez.org/news/appeals-court-denies-immediate-illinois-conceal-carry-108287

[DigitalChaos]

Chicago HAD to, per the S.C.O.T.U.S. decision. They also had to pass a conceal-carry law per the appellate court decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

http://www.wbez.org/news/appeals-court-denies-immediate-illinois-conceal-carry-108287

Yup. It definitely seems like a win for gun rights. I'm curious how much this will influence similar bans in other parts of the country. I know more suits followed this one.


Another win for gun rights was the recall of two Colorado DEMs who were pushing gun control. I believe those were the first ever successful recalls and the NRA was backing them.

Any push for gun control right now seems like it would be even harder than post-newtown. They are off to a hilarious bad start already with the Navy Yard shooting. The guy used a shotgun but politicians are pushing more assault weapon bans. It was also an area where guns (or is it ammo?) were already banned. People who were there said they could have easily cleared the area if they were armed.

[allegro]

Again, though, the latest shooting in DC is more about mental illness than guns. This shooter was slipping into total madness.

[Deepvoid]

"We're sorry about your son Madam, but the shooter was crazy!"

How did this guy get his guns again?
I have not read much on the subject.

[allegro]

He had a shotgun (totally legal and constitutionally protected throughout the United States) which he assembled in the men's room after gaining access to the facility using his full security clearance.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/17/navy-yard-shooting-aaron-alexis-washington/2824793/

Meanwhile, the Navy had been warned (the gunman called 911 asking for help), but the Navy did nothing about it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/17/us-usa-navy-shooting-idUSBRE98F0DN20130917