Star Wars: The Movies (Spoilers)

[elevenism]

Jesus I wish they would have just had Abrams direct the second one.

This is the sort of shit that happens on tv shows, when they have too many writers and directors and the story changes drastically in tone and scope and you're trying to figure out if you missed an episode or something.

Edit: and if JJ didn't do all 3 then Rian should have. I'm sure TLJ would've worked better on the heels of Rian Johnson's TFA.

[Louie_Cypher]

again i think going back to the clone wars animated series is a good move they need to get the fan base back especially the kids a huge part of of the star wars financial portfolio is based on toys as well as opening a new star wars land @Disney world they need new blood even bigger they need the Chinese market. Hollywood is still coming to terms with the Chinese market so when ever you try to run a nostalgia based project like Baywatch Chips even ghost busters its going to fail in china because they don't have any association with the property look like it or not china is coming into a space were they have a middle class who are happy to spend money on leisure activities the reality that in order for any western entertainment to succeed it must include china the challenge is dealing with the government
-Louie

[Wretchedest]

Yeah I just don't agree with that. Especially in terms of Star Wars, which is a large enough cultural phenomena that the quirks are worth unpacking and looking at. Like why the fuck would Poe Dameron know better than two of his superiors? He wouldn't?
Movies can be about anything, and they don't have to stand alone.
Why do we need another shitty emperor palpatine knock off to cycle back the same arc we've seen twice already? We dont. And now if we suddenly kill him, subverting audience expectations by a whole movie and a half, suddenly we are I the wild west and we have no idea what to expect. That's fantastic
So much of star wars now is about expectation, and the post TFA conversations trying to discover twists and clues and hints: that was fucking stupid. Star Wars has never been about that. Star Wars had one remarkable twist in it's second movie, of like 11 movies. So Abrams vision was reductive and distracting, because it hung Rey's character up on this mystery that isn't necessarily really relevant. It hung the antagonist role on Snoke, who is so much more boring and poinntless and uninteresting than Kylo Ren, a rare star wars character worth truly exploring.

[Shadaloo]

Things people have talked about and speculated about after every Star Wars movie:

Post-TESB:
"Is Vader's lying or telling the truth?"
"Is Han really dead?"
"Who does Leia choose between Luke and Han?"
"How is someone so powerful that even Vader is afraid of them?"

Post-The Phantom Menace:
"Is Darth Sidious Palpatine's master? Is he going to corrupt him? (Yes, there was a giant contingent of people who did not believe they were the same guy at first and thought there was a big conspiracy with a twist coming!)
"Is Qui-Gon going to come back as a force ghost? I bet he teaches Obi-Wan how to do it"
"How exactly is Anakin going to start down his dark path?"
"How bad of a teacher is Obi-Wan going to turn out to be?"
"What kind of unforgiving god would allow this movie to come into being?"

And so on, and so forth. Rampant batshit speculation about every single possible outcome for characters has been a constant since before I was ever a Star Wars fan.

Like I said, it's up to the director to inform us why the character is or is not different from Palpatine; and Johnson failed to do that completely. The onus was on him and he just decided he didn't give a shit and offed him without contributing in any meaningful way. If you don't like the character, fine, but that's not the way to go about it - now Luke's going to have to explain shit when he sits on a log in IX.

Because one fucking scene was apparently too much to ask.

He could have told us "Snoke's had no formal Sith training." "Snoke was Palpatine's backup plan - an associate given instructions in case Palpatine died." "Snoke wants to make shitty golden Hugh Hefner bathrobes all the rage across the galaxy so that's why he built the First Order". But we got nothing in place of that but an arrogant auteurial statement about how much he didn't care, and that's what most of Ep VIII is - a great big movie about how much one director hates the conventions of the series he's agreed to be a part of.

Bottom line: Rian Johnson sat down and said "What I have to say about this character is more important than developing the character itself and I'm going to show the world that".

And the arrogance of that is just...mind-boggling to me.

And while we're here, to be really honest, and talking about knockoffs, I don't see any notable differences between Kylo Ren and Anakin Skywalker. Like, at all. They're both entitled, whiny, conflicted douchebags who hurt and killed the people close to them and are torn between light and dark blahdeblahdeblah - and that's the whole point of Kylo - he's his grandpa all over again. I don't get how it's possible to dislike one character and embrace the other.

And the only real question is which path he chooses or if they make another - let's face it - equally predictable choice to create a new legion of force users who are in tune with both.

Subverting expectations in and of itself does not make for good entertainment; and the proof of that is for me is M. Night Shymalan being considered a laughingstock for years for his pointless "twist" endings. And let's not kid ourselves: nothing new or revolutionary is going to come out of any of the decisions he made. When Episode IX comes you're going to get force ghost Luke. You're going to get lightsaber fights. Spaceships shooting lasers at each other. Star Wars isn't about to completely stand on its head because one jackass decided he was going to shake up the whole table.

I'll fucking laugh if Phasma shows up in Episode IX because the armor protected her from the fire and the fall, really. None of this is going to change where the saga ends up.

Also, I don't give two shits about Poe Dameron and doubt anyone does. All they did was take a a minor character from part 1 with 10 minutes of screentime and spent 45 minutes making him into an unlikable douche. Of course I'm sure it was to "make a statement" about how unrealistic the brash hot-headed youth pilot trope is but really - who the fuck cares? Laura Dern stole almost every scene he was in anyway.

[Kodiak33]

I'll keep this short, I was disappointed in The Force Awakens (rehash) and I was really disappointed in The Last Jedi. I think they've really screwed up character development, Finn could be totally awesome (and Poe I suppose), but I could not care less about him. The casino scene was a huge drag on that movie (TLJ), and they should've spent more time with the new characters and letting the audience care more about them IMO.

General Phasma was supposed to be a big character too, and she had maybe 5 minutes total screentime? She's not even in Episode IX! I did really love Rogue One, and I'm excited to see Solo at some point. The episodic movies just reek of "playing it safe". They don't have to do this at all, they're going to make a ton of money regardless.

[elevenism]

Things people have talked about and speculated about after every Star Wars movie:



Post-The Phantom Menace:
"Is Darth Sidious Palpatine's master? Is he going to corrupt him? (Yes, there was a giant contingent of people who did not believe they were the same guy at first and thought there was a big conspiracy with a twist coming!)
"Is Qui-Gon going to come back as a force ghost? I bet he teaches Obi-Wan how to do it"
"How exactly is Anakin going to start down his dark path?"
"How bad of a teacher is Obi-Wan going to turn out to be?"
"What kind of unforgiving god would allow this movie to come into being?"

mostly just that last one for TPM, for me.

but as far as the speculation bit: TLJ was OKAY for me.

Pre TFA i was thinking "dear god i hope they don't fuck this up."

Then i spent an absurd amount of time speculating about the plot of 8, with @thelastdisciple in particular.

Then we both saw 8. And i will say this: we sure haven't spent much time speculating about the plot of 9, except to say "Jesus god i hope they can fix this," which is kind of worse than "dear god i hope they don't fuck this up."

:/

[Haysey_Draws]

Well it's fairly obvious we're all split on TLJ...so what better way to split us further then MAKING A STAR WARS ANIME!

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/new...series/.134949

I'm joking of course, nobody could be split about how good anime is

[cahernandez]

He could have told us "Snoke's had no formal Sith training." "Snoke was Palpatine's backup plan - an associate given instructions in case Palpatine died." "Snoke wants to make shitty golden Hugh Hefner bathrobes all the rage across the galaxy so that's why he built the First Order". But we got nothing in place of that but an arrogant auteurial statement about how much he didn't care, and that's what most of Ep VIII is - a great big movie about how much one director hates the conventions of the series he's agreed to be a part of.

Bottom line: Rian Johnson sat down and said "What I have to say about this character is more important than developing the character itself and I'm going to show the world that".

Honest question (I'm truly interested in your answer, it's not a rhetorical): do you think Rian Johnson was the one that took the decision to kill Snoke, or do you think that for a decision like this Kathleen Kennedy would had been involved? Personally, I don't think this is one of those plot decisions where the director would have say on it, it seems to me that for something like this Kathleen would have the final word.

[Shadaloo]

I'm sure she okayed it, but I'm sure killing him was Johnson's idea. Wretchedest is right in saying that Snoke was a great big dangling plot thread that people wanted answers for and there was a lot of speculation over what he was going to turn out to be - some sort of clone, one of the ancient Sith Lords, so on and so forth. Killing him off was a decision squarely in the same boat as revealing that Rey's parents were nobody - an anti-answer to those questions after the speculation was rampant and heavy. There was no damage control necessary for Episode VIII, no reason for Kennedy to step in and request emergency adjustments. For a producer, that strikes me as a decision to shoot oneself in the foot. Wouldn't make sense.

[sonic_discord]

Honest question (I'm truly interested in your answer, it's not a rhetorical): do you think Rian Johnson was the one that took the decision to kill Snoke, or do you think that for a decision like this Kathleen Kennedy would had been involved? Personally, I don't think this is one of those plot decisions where the director would have say on it, it seems to me that for something like this Kathleen would have the final word.

But Rian Johnson wasn't just the director, he was also the writer as well. Being the writer-director surely gave him some serious sway (I mean, they're planning on giving him his own trilogy FFS!). So, I think that @Shadaloo is correct. I don't think it (abruptly killing Snoke without any further backstory on his character) resolves that particular thread in a satisfying way, though. As the RedLetterMedia/Half in the Bag guys said, it subverts expectations left and right (which CAN be refreshing when done right), but does not succeed in doing so in way that is interesting or satisfying for the viewer because it doesn't drive the story forward or make you care any more about the characters. It just makes you go "Oh... Okay..." I'm hoping that either Johnson had something planned for episode IX that justifies a few of his choices that I found perplexing or that J.J. Abrams does some course-correcting to make those decisions make more sense in retrospect. I have a feeling that they'll leave Snoke dead and allow that decision to remain, but backtrack on the parentage of Rey and say that Kylo was lying or something. According to an interview with Simon Pegg, J.J. had been planning something more traditional and expected for her regarding her lineage.

[Conan The Barbarian]

Why does everyone always refer back to Red Letter Media?

[bobbie solo]

Because they know whats up.

[Louie_Cypher]

still fee like using clone wars as a sandbox is one of the better ideas they have had, if any learned anything from mcu its sloe measured role outs. look hulk is probably one of marvels fan fav characters but due ti 2 box office bombs they used him very sparely were as iron man was successful so the built a team around him.
-louie

[sonic_discord]

still fee like using clone wars as a sandbox is one of the better ideas they have had, if any learned anything from mcu its sloe measured role outs. look hulk is probably one of marvels fan fav characters but due ti 2 box office bombs they used him very sparely were as iron man was successful so the built a team around him.
-louie

Universal Studios still owns the distribution rights to The Hulk, which is more likely the REAL problem here. Marvel owns the production rights to the Hulk, but unless they buy the distribution rights back from Universal, Marvel has to pay Universal to distribute the movie. Marvel has finally figured out how to properly handle the character with Mark Ruffalo, so I have no doubt they could make a successful standalone Hulk movie at this point, but since they can get away with using him as a supporting character (like in Thor: Ragnarok) or as part of an ensemble cast (like the Avengers movies) and avoid paying Universal to distribute the film, there likely won't be another standalone Hulk movie until they reacquire the distribution rights.

[cahernandez]

Killing him off was a decision squarely in the same boat as revealing that Rey's parents were nobody - an anti-answer to those questions after the speculation was rampant and heavy.

Again, another honest question: don't you think Kathleen and co. would have major plot points for this trilogy already set in stone before filming any of the films? I'd like to believe that important stuff like "killing Snoke" or "Rey's parents' would had been in something like a "Star Wars VII-IX roadmap' and would not be set to changes based on audience reaction...right???

[Swykk]

Goddamn, this thread is still depressing and full of misinformation.

[Shadaloo]

Again, another honest question: don't you think Kathleen and co. would have major plot points for this trilogy already set in stone before filming any of the films? I'd like to believe that important stuff like "killing Snoke" or "Rey's parents' would had been in something like a "Star Wars VII-IX roadmap' and would not be set to changes based on audience reaction...right???

That would make sense, but this little snippet from Wiki suggests to me that may not have been the case:

"In December 2015, Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy said, "we haven't mapped out every single detail [of the sequel trilogy] yet", and that Abrams was collaborating with Johnson and that Johnson would in turn work with (then)Episode IX directo Colin Trevorrow to ensure a smooth transition."

There was also a month's production delay from Jan-Feb. 2016 due to script rewrites. So I really don't think everything was set in stone. Point in fact I kind of wonder if the widely held opinion that VII was too similar in structure to classic SW films could have played a part in how VIII turned out.

[ltrandazzo]

That would make sense, but this little snippet from Wiki suggests to me that may not have been the case:

"In December 2015, Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy said, "we haven't mapped out every single detail [of the sequel trilogy] yet", and that Abrams was collaborating with Johnson and that Johnson would in turn work with (then)Episode IX directo Colin Trevorrow to ensure a smooth transition."

There was also a month's production delay from Jan-Feb. 2016 due to script rewrites. So I really don't think everything was set in stone. Point in fact I kind of wonder if the widely held opinion that VII was too similar in structure to classic SW films could have played a part in how VIII turned out.

I also enjoyed sending this article to everyone I saw complaining about how Rian ruined everything JJ did in TFA - https://www.slashfilm.com/how-j-j-ab...f-star-wars/2/

[Shadaloo]

I also enjoyed sending this article to everyone I saw complaining about how Rian ruined everything JJ did in TFA - https://www.slashfilm.com/how-j-j-ab...f-star-wars/2/

-At the very most all this means is that Abrams was okay with Johnson taking the direction that he did. Doesn't change the fact that some of those decisions are widely considered to be poor ones. If JJ was behind this too? Okay, nuts to 'em both. Like I said before - I'm confident that thirty years from now it's going to be looked back on as this really incoherent jumble of a trilogy of films. So worst case scenario, they're both responsible for that. Hooray.

-This is also dated from before Episode VII even premiered, well before any script rewrites that took place, so who the hell knows what Abrams saw.

-To reiterate - i don't think he ruined everything Abrams did. I liked Leia's depiction, loved her use of force powers. I enjoyed that Luke was not the flawless master everyone thought he'd turn out to be. I don't have a problem with character deaths; and I don't have a bad word to say about the performances. I find the film extremely dour, incoherent and tenuous, and Snoke's non-development is the one thing that really sticks in my craw and puts it over the edge to being a bad film to me - a result of this approach of intentionally subverting expectations across the entire film or unnecessarily deconstructing the mythos to the point where I was rolling my eyes.

[GulDukat]

I would have liked a little more background on Snoke, but his lack of backstory didn't matter all that much. In TOT Palpatine is a shadowy figure in the background and not introduced until ROTJ (except for his hologram in ESB). He's in the final movie of that trilogy and then killed off. His background and rise to power was never addressed until the prequels but it didn't matter. With Snoke, the lack of a backstory didn't matter to me either. Like I posted before, his real purpose in the new trilogy serves as a plot device in Kylo Ren's narrative. My main problem with TLJ was most of the Resistance getting killed because of Rose and Finn's dumb plan, which the survivors seem okay with. Also, Rose saving Finn and her line about "love saving us" from the First Order was fucking stupid.

[Shadaloo]

Palpatine is mentioned as a powerful figure and ruler of the galaxy in one movie, shown to be a someone even Vader fears in the next, and finally shown to be immensely powerful and terrifying in ROTJ. Palpatine is the original overlord figure - he's the ruler of the whole galaxy. He's the face of evil Luke has to defeat and reject, his final challenge. He was an original creation who defined himself.

Snoke's lack of backstory matters because he is extremely similar to Palpatine. He stood in the character's shadow from day one, and without anything to tell us why he's different or why he's the same - which is what we got, nothing - all he can ever be is a hollow reflection of his predecessor. A character shouldn't exist simply to be used as commentary on another that came before; as a central villain and alleged head of the First Order he should have been fleshed out; he was too important to serve as a plot device.

[GulDukat]

More fleshed-out? Yeah, maybe, but I was okay with what he got for the reasons I listed. I'm glad they aren't just recycling the Palpatine/Vader dynamic. Ren's line about forgetting about the Sith and the Jedi, leaving the past behind, etc. Ren killing Snoke was what that was all about.

[Kodiak33]

My main problem with TLJ was most of the Resistance getting killed because of Rose and Finn's dumb plan, which the survivors seem okay with. Also, Rose saving Finn and her line about "love saving us" from the First Order was fucking stupid.

YES. Them crashing into the ATST would've saved the movie for me.

[Wretchedest]

On the one hand, the new restructuring of this franchise is a big "I told you so" about the annualization and saturation of this brand. We always knew it would come to this and it needed to stop.

On the other hand so far these movies have all been pretty good and have essentially proved the concept. I'm a big defender of Disney's wide aquisitions in terms of their respect for the content, but this is an unfortunate case where, across the board they seem very sensitive to what is essentially: one less than super successful film, and the outrage of spoiled, racist manbabies.

I really think episode 9 is going to suffer for it. Abrams could very well tug back the rope that Johnson pulled from his hands, which would turn a clever moment of introspection into a petty disagreement between two fanboys. I just tend not to like Abrams work nearly as much as Johnson's anyway. Aside that there's the issue of Carrie fishers passing. Episode IX really has a lot going against it. And if it pans out this way I could see this series go dark for a bit

[allegate]

Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.

[elevenism]

i have a feeling that we may still be getting "secret twins" in IX.
If JJ had planned for it to go that way, and he's got the reins again, what's to stop him?
and i, for one, will like it.

i LIKE predictable when it comes to these movies. I'm here for the same thing i got from this franchise in the 80s.

they have the rest of eternity to subvert expectations or whatever

And i thought TLJ was good, btw.

i just hope the last one skews more on the side of nostalgia and such, like TFA did.

[Kodiak33]

i have a feeling that we may still be getting "secret twins" in IX.
If JJ had planned for it to go that way, and he's got the reins again, what's to stop him?
and i, for one, will like it.

i LIKE predictable when it comes to these movies. I'm here for the same thing i got from this franchise in the 80s.

they have the rest of eternity to subvert expectations or whatever

And i thought TLJ was good, btw.

i just hope the last one skews more on the side of nostalgia and such, like TFA did.

This wouldn't surprise me, especially with their telepathy like Luke and Leia had.

[M1ke]

This wouldn't surprise me, especially with their telepathy like Luke and Leia had.

Would make sense too, Kylo calling Ren's parents nobodies might be him trying to deny his pain after killing his father.

[elevenism]

Would make sense too, Kylo calling Ren's parents nobodies might be him trying to deny his pain after killing his father.

Plus it would explain the infamous hug between Rey and Leia who "didn't even know each other," leaving poor Chewy to grieve alone.

[Louie_Cypher]

so i had this idea of skinning which is taking an existing story and placing with a different ip, i don't knowhow it would work leagly so something like "kelly's hero's" but with Han solo and gang
-louie