Random NIN Thoughts

[Max]

Fearfulness didn't lead him to backing away from the direction Hesitation Marks took - in my opinion, fear led to the direction Hesitation Marks took in the first place, fear of being trapped in an echo-chamber and not being able to reach an audience outside of his established cult. A lot of the moves made in that period (signing with Columbia, performing on Jimmy Kimmel, the Blu-Ray that never materialized) speak to someone trying to break out and achieve a visibility he felt he was lacking at that stage in his career. Even if you want to argue that Everything as a song was a bold "this is something really different" creative statement, the fact he backed off of that song so quickly and never even played it live (we know for sure it was rehearsed) betrays the fearfulness, the concern with perception, that defined that period. He believed in Hesitation Marks creatively, sure, but there was a real hunger there to be recognized and relevant in a mainstream sense again.

Compare that to the Trilogy era. One low key music video but overall almost no press or major push for the releases to be noticed. The major tour that closed the cycle was a diehard affair, with more deep cuts and rarities and premieres than we could believe. As opposed to trying to reach beyond his established audience, as he did with Hesitation Marks, he seemed to realize that thinking too much about what people would respond to was diluting his artistic output and went the opposite direction, full "this is what I'm excited about and I really don't give a shit what people think." And yes, it is what he and Atticus thought was interesting, not what they thought his fanbase would eat up the most (I don't know how you could listen to Bad Witch and think it was curated by design to appeal to the fans).

Hesitation Marks saw him depressed at having limits to his audience. The Trilogy cycle saw him not pandering to his loyal following, but appreciating it and the security it affords him and Atticus, to worry first and foremost about the creative and not the commercial. Cold And Black And Infinite made that gratitude abundantly clear.

I can see how a person might come to these conclusions but i actually think he was coming from the exact OPPOSITE place. It wasn't out of fear that he made Hesitation Marks. It wasn't out of an attempt to be more relevant to pop culture or anything else so contrived. I think it was him actually saying, "I don't need to prove to anyone how I don't have anything to prove to anyone. I stayed away from Jimmy Kimmel because what would the fans think? But let's try that. Let's make a track like Everything that references some of the musical influences that got me into this in the first place. Let's look back on who i used to be and not worry so much about being self-referential and punished for looking in the rear-view.

I think Hesitation Marks was perhaps his MOST courageous album in the sense that it was one of the most vulnerable. He wasn't armored up for it. He wasn't posturing or proving anything to anyone. He was content and secure in who he was and courageous enough to share that. That takes a lot of courage.

There is an alternate timeline that we will never know, where Trump never got elected, where things weren't going completely bananas everyday, where Trent Reznor might have actually continued down the HM path. We can only imagine what that would have looked like. Instead the fresh Hell that greets us each morning is having an affect on him like the rest of us. So Bad Witch it is.

That's my take.

[Deacon Blackfire]

Very interesting rebuttal!

I suppose all this makes it seem like I dislike Hesitation Marks or view as some kind of "sell-out" album, which is definitely not the case. It is (at least right now) probably my least favorite NIN record and I don't think it has aged particularly well but I still like it quite a bit (In Two, for example, is a terrific song) and I certainly think it is fascinating. But part of why it's so fascinating is that its gestation as an album was so...odd. I feel it is informative to refresh ourselves on how that album began. Because it began with Trent still having to fulfill a Greatest Hits release for Interscope, one he was contracted to produce a couple new songs for, and those songs were Everything and Satellite, the first songs he recorded for Hesitation Marks.

In this context, Everything makes so much more sense. Trent had to record two new songs for his old label and was like, fuck it, I'm going to make something I would normally never release, the opposite of whatever they're expecting. To me, in the beginning, it seemed like Everything was borne out of his legendary trolling instincts, but he was so close to it (and Satellite) that they grew on him in a legitimate sense and he ended up wanting a "real" home for them. So in a sense, I think you're right that Hesitation Marks as an album definitely shows some bravery (I definitely don't think its him at his most naked and vulnerable but it is an honest record). I just don't think the reasons for that bravery are particularly engaging on a personal or artistic level.

But while the album itself may have had legitimate artistic depth, it's still undeniable to me that this was a period where Trent was really hungry to be noticed artistically, in a way that reached beyond his following. That was what signing to Columbia was all about. Trent said it himself, he was tired of trying to figure out how to get his music out there and reach the audiences he felt he was hidden from, so he signed to a label (with wisely cautious 1 album deal) and hoped they could provide him the platforms that would widen his viewership. And they did open up media spotlights for him - the Kimmel appearance, an article in the New York Times Arts & Leisure section (if I recall correctly), the Grammys performance (the fact HM was nominated probably had something to do with major label clout too) - but those spotlights never helped that album or NIN pop or get noticed to the degree he wanted. In fact, some of those windows (the Grammys performance specifically) ended up being frustrating disappointments.

So I guess I should say, he didn't write Hesitation Marks to "go mainstream" but he really wanted to get back there and I'm happy to see him appreciating the benefits and upsides of his diehard following now. I wouldn't be surprised if the nauseating place broader popular culture - really American culture in general - has reached has played some role in diminishing the value he places on that kind of fame. Speaking of which...

In regard to the alternate no-President-Trump timeline (please take me there), it's important to remember that Trump was elected in November and Not The Actual Events came out in late December, which means that a good portion of it, if not MOST of it, was done before the horrific results of that election. While I'm sure that the horrible atmosphere of the whole election cycle affected that record, with or without Trump, I think Not The Actual Events represents the sonic and thematic step he would have taken next regardless. But I completely agree that our collective national-worldwide nightmare has had a profound effect on the content of the Trilogy, thematically at the very least, and is the major reason why the Trilogy feels like such a fierce, nihilistic rebuttal to Hesitation Marks.

[Max]

Very interesting rebuttal!

I suppose all this makes it seem like I dislike Hesitation Marks or view as some kind of "sell-out" album, which is definitely not the case. It is (at least right now) probably my least favorite NIN record and I don't think it has aged particularly well but I still like it quite a bit (In Two, for example, is a terrific song) and I certainly think it is fascinating. But part of why it's so fascinating is that its gestation as an album was so...odd. I feel it is informative to refresh ourselves on how that album began. Because it began with Trent still having to fulfill a Greatest Hits release for Interscope, one he was contracted to produce a couple new songs for, and those songs were Everything and Satellite, the first songs he recorded for Hesitation Marks.

In this context, Everything makes so much more sense. Trent had to record two new songs for his old label and was like, fuck it, I'm going to make something I would normally never release, the opposite of whatever they're expecting. To me, in the beginning, it seemed like Everything was borne out of his legendary trolling instincts, but he was so close to it (and Satellite) that they grew on him in a legitimate sense and he ended up wanting a "real" home for them. So in a sense, I think you're right that Hesitation Marks as an album definitely shows some bravery (I definitely don't think its him at his most naked and vulnerable but it is an honest record). I just don't think the reasons for that bravery are particularly engaging on a personal or artistic level.

But while the album itself may have had legitimate artistic depth, it's still undeniable to me that this was a period where Trent was really hungry to be noticed artistically, in a way that reached beyond his following. That was what signing to Columbia was all about. Trent said it himself, he was tired of trying to figure out how to get his music out there and reach the audiences he felt he was hidden from, so he signed to a label (with wisely cautious 1 album deal) and hoped they could provide him the platforms that would widen his viewership. And they did open up media spotlights for him - the Kimmel appearance, an article in the New York Times Arts & Leisure section (if I recall correctly), the Grammys performance (the fact HM was nominated probably had something to do with major label clout too) - but those spotlights never helped that album or NIN pop or get noticed to the degree he wanted. In fact, some of those windows (the Grammys performance specifically) ended up being frustrating disappointments.

So I guess I should say, he didn't write Hesitation Marks to "go mainstream" but he really wanted to get back there and I'm happy to see him appreciating the benefits and upsides of his diehard following now. I wouldn't be surprised if the nauseating place broader popular culture - really American culture in general - has reached has played some role in diminishing the value he places on that kind of fame. Speaking of which...

In regard to the alternate no-President-Trump timeline (please take me there), it's important to remember that Trump was elected in November and Not The Actual Events came out in late December, which means that a good portion of it, if not MOST of it, was done before the horrific results of that election. While I'm sure that the horrible atmosphere of the whole election cycle affected that record, with or without Trump, I think Not The Actual Events represents the sonic and thematic step he would have taken next regardless. But I completely agree that our collective national-worldwide nightmare has had a profound effect on the content of the Trilogy, thematically at the very least, and is the major reason why the Trilogy feels like such a fierce, nihilistic rebuttal to Hesitation Marks.

yeah and I think that is why HM feels like it hasn’t aged well because our world hasn’t aged well. Things have gotten more dark and desperate and we are all pissed about it and HM just doesn’t make much sense amindat all this right now but if things ever settle down and we feel more secure and able to put our guard down, I think HM might speak to us and maybe even him again. When he said he doesn’t even know who that guy is anymore, I think that’s a big part of it. And I can relate. It’s hard to be naked and vulnerable when you are fighting for survival.

[laci]

Ok, I love Miley's live cover of HLAH. I started to listening to live HLAH tracks by NIN. Which version do you prefer?
My fav. is the BYIT version, but recommend me your favourites, please.

[eversonpoe]

Ok, I love Miley's live cover of HLAH. I started to listening to live HLAH tracks by NIN. Which version do you prefer?
My fav. is the BYIT version, but recommend me your favourites, please.

nothing really beats the studio version for me (album mix, though some of the others are fun), but the one on AATCHB is pretty fucking great. my biggest issue is that the song works better as an opener than a closer, and i wish they would stop playing it at the end of shows.

[MrLobster]

nothing really beats the studio version for me (album mix, though some of the others are fun), but the one on AATCHB is pretty fucking great. my biggest issue is that the song works better as an opener than a closer, and i wish they would stop playing it at the end of shows.

While I agree it is a good opener, even by Woodstock '94 he was using it at the end.

Which AATCHB version? The DVD or the CD?

[Deacon Blackfire]

They opened Voodoo Festival 2005 with Head Like A Hole but anything like that has been pretty rare.

The And All That Could Have Been version is probably my favorite - it sounds great with any lineup but 2005-onwards has seen Trent pretty much never sing the main chorus, just play guitar while the band sings it, and I've always wanted to see a performance where he actually sang that part again.

[chuckrh]

Ok, I love Miley's live cover of HLAH. I started to listening to live HLAH tracks by NIN. Which version do you prefer?
My fav. is the BYIT version, but recommend me your favourites, please.

i do too! what she did at glastonbury was awesome. when she changed it to a straight cover halfway through (with costume change haha) it was great & worked very well. & her band was up to playing it. i'm sure she has really good musicians in the band. she's an interesting artist & has definitely got away from disney (rare). that album she did with flaming lips has some fantastic stuff although it could've used a little editting. love the song "karen don't be sad". she's got a great voice. will be interesting to watch her career in the future.

[botley]

Ok, I love Miley's live cover of HLAH. I started to listening to live HLAH tracks by NIN. Which version do you prefer?
My fav. is the BYIT version, but recommend me your favourites, please.

Further to @eversonpoe 's point here is a barnstorming 2005 version as the opening track of their Voodoo festival set:

[eversonpoe]

While I agree it is a good opener, even by Woodstock '94 he was using it at the end.

Which AATCHB version? The DVD or the CD?

DVD! can't stand listening to the CD version of AATCHB (i've moaned about this previously).

[Halo Infinity]

nothing really beats the studio version for me (album mix, though some of the others are fun), but the one on AATCHB is pretty fucking great. my biggest issue is that the song works better as an opener than a closer, and i wish they would stop playing it at the end of shows.

This has always occurred to me as well, especially as it's also the very first song from the debut and one of the very first hits/videos, which is why it left me wanting more, or wondering if there was more on the set-list even if I was also very much well aware of the fact. The sound also speaks for itself, since it just gets you pumped up only to leave.

I also seem to side with the studio version, but some of my favorite HALH live gigs, aside from the BYIT and ATTCHB versions would also have to be Lollapalooza 1991, Woodstock 1994, Newark, New Jersey [12_09_89] and Dallas, Texas [06_26_90].

Even though this was from a result of messing up, I actually enjoyed "Something's gonna get broken!" AKA Philadelphia, Pennsylvania [05_19_05] from time to time, and still do, since I loved the audience's reaction with/by them singing along to the song as Trent tried to get it back together again.

[chuckrh]

Trent is the best front man out there still putting out vital, necessary new music. Watching an audience vid from DC last year. It's just stunning.

[HWB]

Earlier in the thread some people mentioned as Hesitation Marks being the most daring album, I actually think Year Zero may be the most daring album in many ways, even when we just talk purely music wise.

[SM Rollinger]

All the NIN albums are daring in my opinion.

[HWB]

All the NIN albums are daring in my opinion.

Absolutely.

[theimage13]

Somehow, I've never really had a chance to sit down and listen to Add Violence on proper gear. Chalk it up to my schedule since it's been released. Well, I finally did, and fuck me - I am loving the guitar layering on the final breakdown in Less Than. One layer is reminiscent of HDTA (the sliding guitar from The Space In Between), the other calls to heavier NIN tracks. So fucking good.

[Magnetic]

Add Violence is my favorite of the trilogy. Bad Witch still eludes me, aside from INFTW. I've tried quite a few times.

[HWB]

I keep hearing new sounds in Hesitation Marks like years later and each time it creeps me the fuck out.

Just how much underneath is on this fucking record.

[SM Rollinger]

I keep hearing new sounds in The Downward Spiral like years later and each time it creeps me the fuck out.

Just how much underneath is on this fucking record.

Fixed that for you

[HWB]

Fixed that for you

I got you a better one.

I keep hearing new sounds in pretty much any NIN album, when you think about it, expect maybe the slip, not meaning to diss the slip but you know like years later and each time it creeps me the fuck out.

Just how much underneath is on these fucking records.

[Reaps]

Less Than is the most euphoric/intense single NIN has ever put out. I never tire of it.

[Failure]

Less Than is the most euphoric/intense single NIN has ever put out. I never tire of it.

Less Than is a criminally underrated tune. It always makes me think of Webster Hall 2017 (secret show). The song sounded so fresh and vital that night; and the feeling has yet to dissipate. It still baffles me how much praise Bad Witch gets compared to Add Violence. The latter has such sharp focus and the melodies put into elite NIN territory. The former is a nice, experimental piece of work to be sure....but just missing something comparatively speaking.

[diptych]

I forgot how much I liked the 2006 radio shows with Peter Murphy. Thanks, @ninlive for hosting those!

[Kulerage]

I keep hearing new sounds in pretty much any NIN album, when you think about it, expect maybe the slip, not meaning to diss the slip but you know like years later and each time it creeps me the fuck out.

Just how much underneath is on these fucking records.

Even The Slip is more layered than you think. Download the multi tracks for it and you'll see.

[theimage13]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJXAt4wB...ource=ig_embed

When I saw this photo, literally the only thing I could think of was NIN.

I think my brain is Broken.

[theimage13]

Less Than is the most euphoric/intense single NIN has ever put out. I never tire of it.

I think I'd give that title to WITT, but that doesn't diminish my love for this track.

[WorzelG]

Am I going mad? I had an idea TR had tweeted something like ‘Lots coming in 2019’? But I can’t find it now

[StockAvuryah]

Am I going mad? I had an idea TR had tweeted something like ‘Lots coming in 2019’? But I can’t find it now

It was on nin.com only, right ? http://www.nin.com/bird-box-score-available-now/

[Erneuert]

Anyone else crossing their fingers that the next live NIN show opens up with a
mashup of Pinion with Old Town Road?

[diptych]

The riff in "One Way to Get Here" (Fragile Deviations) is remarkably similar to the bassline in The Good Soldier. Probably been noticed before, but I've been away a while. Forgive me.