Controversial Music Opinions...

[Jon]

Yes, but what about the country responsible for pop country?

Take the good with the bad. Pop country used to be stuff like Elvis, Kenny Rogers, Conway Twitty...

[Jinsai]

I can see how you could say Conway Twitty made a form of pop/country music, but we're talking about a different genre. Maybe there's a more specific category for stuff ranging from Shania Twain to Florida Georgia Line. Whatever that is... I don't see much good there.

[Jazzkokehead]

Yes, but what about the country responsible for pop country?

We all have our sins that we have to live with, I suppose.

[elevenism]

I don't get that line at all. But at least Bowie can blame drugs.

It's on America's tortured brow, that Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow, you mean?

Well...
And the worker's have struck for fame/cause lenin's on sale again

I think it's something like this: Walt Disney drew a lot from idealized memories of small town America. And, for a long time, he worked directly with his animators, and he had this whole Uncle Walt thing going on, and the workers were like a happy family, or so the story goes. Walt paid his workers what they thought they were worth, and that was cool, until the forties, when a lot of them famously went on strike for unfair wage practices.
So, ultimately, Disney and his studio weren't so idyllic after all: perhaps, he was kind of a dick. At the same time, Disney's vision was becoming more and more commercial, and it seemed that Walt had come to care more about money, than his original vision, or his people.
Walt vocally blamed the strike on communism. Later, he assisted Joe McCarthy as a "friendly witness," and testified as such in McCarthy's communist witch hunts: as in, calling people communists on the record. By the sixties, he was reportedly hardcore right wing, although he once supported FDR.
The man was more or less politically naive, by most accounts, and figured the only thing that could fuck his happy studio over MUST have been something foreign and scary, like the extreme left. He didn't KNOW much about politics; he was swept up in propaganda.

Ok, then take the next line: the workers have struck for fame, cause Lenin's (Lennon's) on sale again. I take this to be the other side of the spectrum. I think this refers to the Disney strike, for one. But, also, later, John Lennon commercialized Vladimir Lenin. Lenin's on SALE, CHEAP! Lennon's selling it half price! The Beatles were counterculture, AND the biggest band in the world. And, THAT created ill informed, plastic LEFTISTS, and/or people singing along to counterculture stuff while missing the point. It's also ironic that they were SELLING left wing revolution.

BOTH lines are about pure ethos being commercialized, perhaps?

Maybe I've read too much into it, but I've thought about this song a LOT over the past few years.
I think it's a brilliant couple of lines.

Or, maybe it was just the drugs.

[allegro]

“It's on America's tortured brow
That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow”

Cow = Cash Cow. Walt Disney + Mickey + Disneyland

Ok, then take the next line: the workers have struck for fame, cause Lennon's on sale again.

You know what album was released the year before Hunky Dory?

John Lennon’s “Plastic Ono Band.”



Lennon / Beatles:

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out (in)

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're all doing what we can
But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait

[Jinsai]

I thought the lyric "Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow" was supposed to infer some sort of ugly transformation w/ the aside of it being a "cash cow"

[elevenism]

I thought the lyric "Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow" was supposed to infer some sort of ugly transformation w/ the aside of it being a "cash cow"

I mean, that's part of what I'm getting at.
Hence, "At the same time, Disney's vision was becoming more and more commercial, and it seemed that Walt had come to care more about money, than his original vision, or his people."

Original vision tarnished and transformed by commercialization.

But, the next line, " the workers have struck for fame," that almost HAS to tie into the Disney strike and his work with McCarthy. It's just too perfect.

Also, @allegro ...well, I'll be damned. I wasn't looking at the years, and i didnt know Lennon had his solo work out before this song, but, holy shit!
Working Class Hero was the lenin that was on sale again, I'll bet!

[allegro]

I mean, that's part of what I'm getting at.
Hence, "At the same time, Disney's vision was becoming more and more commercial, and it seemed that Walt had come to care more about money, than his original vision, or his people."

But look at the line before it:

“It's on America's tortured brow”

The lyric isn’t about Walt...

Americans’ anxiety.

Sometimes we need to back up the view from individual lines and look at the entire piece, as a whole, and how it all fits together. The title says a lot: the protagonist wants to get out, wonders if there’s life on Mars. Escaping reality. Through the silver screen, Mickey Mouse, Mars?

[elevenism]

But look at the line before it:

“It's on America's tortured brow”

The lyric isn’t about Walt...

I hear you, but, respectfully, I think it's ALSO about Walt himself, and Disney in general: good old Uncle Walt who came into everyone's living room each week, starting with Walt Disney's Disney Land, Walt Disney Presents, and Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color: Uncle Walt, helping Americans through cold war tensions.

[allegro]

I hear you, but, respectfully, I think it's ALSO about Walt himself, and Disney in general: good old Uncle Walt who came into everyone's living room each week, starting with Walt Disney's Disney Land, Walt Disney Presents, and Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color: Uncle Walt, helping Americans through cold war tensions.

But you’re hyper-focusing on that one line. Look at the REST of the song.

Human corruption. Escapism through entertainment.

"As I ask you to focus on

Sailors fighting in the dance hall
Oh man, look at those cavemen go
It's the freakiest show
Take a look at the lawman
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man, wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best selling show


It's on America's tortured brow
That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
Now the workers have struck for fame
'Cause Lennon's on sale again
See the mice in their million hordes
From Ibiza to the Norfolk Broads
Rule Britannia is out of bounds
To my mother, my dog, and clowns
But the film is a saddening bore
'Cause I wrote it ten times or more
It's about to be writ again"

Edit:

I thought the lyric "Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow" was supposed to infer some sort of ugly transformation w/ the aside of it being a "cash cow"

Dunno, there were cherished cartoon cows back then, too.

Ferdinand the Bull is particularly beloved.


Mickey was almost a cow.

Elsie comes to mind.

Elsie’s bf is Elmer the Bull..

See also Disney’s Clarabelle Cow.

[elevenism]

But you’re hyper-focusing on that one line. Look at the REST of the song.

Human corruption. Escapism through entertainment.

"As I ask you to focus on

Sailors fighting in the dance hall
Oh man, look at those cavemen go
It's the freakiest show
Take a look at the lawman
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man, wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best selling show


It's on America's tortured brow
That Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow
Now the workers have struck for fame
'Cause Lennon's on sale again
See the mice in their million hordes
From Ibiza to the Norfolk Broads
Rule Britannia is out of bounds
To my mother, my dog, and clowns
But the film is a saddening bore
'Cause I wrote it ten times or more
It's about to be writ again"

I still stand by my interpretation, though. And, trust me: I've done a deep dive into EVERY line of this song. It's to be played at my funeral.

The theme is OBVIOUSLY escaping the mundane.

How about THIS? Walt charging people big money for escapism at Disneyland, leaving his pure vision behind for the cash cow?
Lennon SELLING the escapism of socialism, while being bigger than Jesus.

So, the escapism in this world doesn't cut it: not even when our heroin has the seats with the clearest view. Alas, the film is a saddening bore.

And then, according to Bowie:
This song was so easy... sitting on the steps of the bandstand. ‘Sailors bap-bap-bap-bap-baaa-bap.’

[thenorthwood]

The Joy Formidable opened and there was almost no one there, only maybe a few hundred people in an entire arena. I'm not exaggerating at all when I say they blew the fucking doors off that place. They played that set as if it were a packed house. I'm talking they were throwing guitars around and mic stands towards the end and they had a huge sound. I never forgot that and I've been a fan ever since.

TJF live shows are infectious. They truly seem to love performing and love each other’s company. I have been enjoying their live-streams this past year via their music club. They are so cheeky. What other band would do a death metal cover version of “I’m Too Sexy” by Right Said Fred for Valentine’s Day?

[burnmotherfucker!]

TJF live shows are infectious. They truly seem to love performing and love each other’s company. I have been enjoying their live-streams this past year via their music club. They are so cheeky. What other band would do a death metal cover version of “I’m Too Sexy” by Right Said Fred for Valentine’s Day?

I really wanted to sign up for their music club but I've got so many bills/subscriptions I just couldn't justify it at the time. I figured I would miss out on some great stuff and your post confirms it. I was learning how to play Whirring just the other day for fun. The Big Roar kinda became one of my favorite albums ever over the last decade. Looking forward to their upcoming album.

[burnmotherfucker!]

I still stand by my interpretation, though. And, trust me: I've done a deep dive into EVERY line of this song. It's to be played at my funeral.

The theme is OBVIOUSLY escaping the mundane.

How about THIS? Walt charging people big money for escapism at Disneyland, leaving his pure vision behind for the cash cow?
Lennon SELLING the escapism of socialism, while being bigger than Jesus.

So, the escapism in this world doesn't cut it: not even when our heroin has the seats with the clearest view. Alas, the film is a saddening bore.

And then, according to Bowie:
This song was so easy... sitting on the steps of the bandstand. ‘Sailors bap-bap-bap-bap-baaa-bap.’

Yeah I've kinda always thought of it as entertainment/escapism being a distraction from the real world. Such a great song. But there's so many layers to it too. I mean not to get too abstract but if Lennon was selling socialism then isn't Bowie selling a critique of escapism in this very song? And then there's my own experience listening to the track. Yeah, commercialism and entertainment can have a downside but when the chorus rolls around I myself get completely lost in the entertainment. I stop caring about the meaning and just enjoy the track. I might as well be living on Mars. So unlike the lyrics this show isn't a bore and I enjoy it. So does it contradict it's own message? And if it does, did it do so on purpose? Maybe, Bowie was an artist after all. Gotta be one of the best songs ever written.

[Jinsai]

I personally love how this has drifted from "Bush wrote a stupid lyric" to the point where we're taking a deep look at the lyrics to a Bowie song that Bush referenced, with that being the key line to point out how stupid it sounds in the Bush song. And it does. Because Bush sucks.

[henryeatscereal]

Razorblade Suitcase is a damn fine album and I'm more than happy to be on this hill all alone.

Nah, i like it a lot too, actually this one and "Sixteen Stone" are the only Bush albums i really like.

[poinoup]

"Glycerine" was everywhere to the point of regurgitation up here. I will allow "Insect Kin" a pass, but otherwise, well "Testosterone" is pretty bad.

[GulDukat]

I personally love how this has drifted from "Bush wrote a stupid lyric" to the point where we're taking a deep look at the lyrics to a Bowie song that Bush referenced, with that being the key line to point out how stupid it sounds in the Bush song. And it does. Because Bush sucks.

I think of Bush as the Bon Jovi of grunge. Gavin (Mr. handsome) was a pinup boy, pretending to be a tortured artist. I thought that their music was contrived bullshit when I first saw the "Everything Zen" video on MTV. When they were actually popular I thought they were grunge posers and wrote them off. Around 2004 I bought their entire catalog for ten dollars from a shop that sold used CDs, mainly out of nostelgia. I came late to the party, but I wound up really enjoying their 90s catalog. They weren't original, but their singles were pretty great, and they've held up well. I've enjoyed their post-reunion albums too.

Bush was a lot better than most mainstream rock music from the 2000s, IMHO, so that's when I started to give their music a reevaluation.

I've seen Bush probably close to a dozen times since The Sea of Memories, as they go on tour every year. Always a killer show. As an oldies Gen-X band go, they deliver. I get why people hate Bush, and I did at the time, but they won me over.

[Jinsai]

All I'll say is that if Gwen Stefani is factoring musical talent/quality into her lovelife, she's got really bad taste.

[GulDukat]

All I'll say is that if Gwen Stefani is factoring musical talent/quality into her lovelife, she's got really bad taste.

I liked No Doubt. Her solo work, not as much.

[Jinsai]

I liked No Doubt. Her solo work, not as much.

Now, when I think of Gwen Stefani, I think of Blake Sheldon, and his stupid fucking face, and his shitty, occasionally racist music, his dumbfuck persona on that stupid show that glorified everything that doesn't matter about music, and then I think about the stupid music she made, more or less in that order at this point. And then I remember that she used to hook up with the guy from Bush, and yeah I actually saw them live once, and it was horrible. It was one of those KROQ Acoustic Christmas things, and it was a couple months after 9/11 had happened, and the Bush guy (I know what his name is shut up) had the audience lift him into the air and he made this crucifix pose, and then said "America! Just know the world feels your pain" or some shit like that, and at least.... at LEAST this audience of KROQ dorks boo'd.

My takeaway is, don't trust any music from some dude Gwen Stefani is banging. He is selling you snake-oil music, and it's bad for you.

[GulDukat]

I love how Blake Shelton has a song called "Kiss my Country Ass" about confederate flags, mooseheads, drinking and driving, smoking Marlboro reds, rebel girls, etc. yet he's worth 100 million. Not exactly a real good 'ol boy.

[Jinsai]

I also like how his music is terrible. The lyrics are just icing on the cake. Blake Sheldon lyrics almost come across like a parody of country bullshit. "Round here we don't listen to the Beatles, we run old Bocephus and honky tonk while we boot stomp and chew tobacco and get drunk and talk about bitches and TRUCKS while we catch catfish and skin deer like country derpaderp" and that is only SLIGHTLY misquoting his lyrics. I actually wonder if his career started off with him making a joking impression, like "hey there you sexy daisy duke wearing bitch get in my truck while I drink bud light and barf in my icebox" and then, to his surprise, people found it endearing. Kinda like how I have to wonder if Larry the Cable Guy's career actually started as a mocking parody, and then people were like "haha, that's funny, because I'm like that guy!" and he just cashed in.

[GulDukat]

I also like how his music is terrible. The lyrics are just icing on the cake. Blake Sheldon lyrics almost come across like a parody of country bullshit. "Round here we don't listen to the Beatles, we run old Bocephus and honky tonk while we boot stomp and chew tobacco and get drunk and talk about bitches and TRUCKS while we catch catfish and skin deer like country derpaderp" and that is only SLIGHTLY misquoting his lyrics. I actually wonder if his career started off with him making a joking impression, like "hey there you sexy daisy duke wearing bitch get in my truck while I drink bud light and barf in my icebox" and then, to his surprise, people found it endearing. Kinda like how I have to wonder if Larry the Cable Guy's career actually started as a mocking parody, and then people were like "haha, that's funny, because I'm like that guy!" and he just cashed in.

[BRoswell]

I love how Blake Shelton has a song called "Kiss my Country Ass" about confederate flags, mooseheads, drinking and driving, smoking Marlboro reds, rebel girls, etc. yet he's worth 100 million. Not exactly a real good 'ol boy.

I think this sums it up perfectly:

[Jinsai]

I realize I'm drifting this thread full on into the "Shitty Music" iceberg, but, "Look, you have to have some way to get down that dirt road to the girl with the painted-on jeans who has all the beer."

https://www.thedrive.com/news/38777/...out-trucks-now

And to keep this thread on topic, country music pretty much sucks after 1970, and then in the 90s it gets offensively bad, and now it's just the musical equivalent of a Jeff Dunham puppet routine. It sucks so bad, and there has not been a good country song written in forever... and I swear to god if someone brings up Hank III I'm just gonna scream. Even great country music output was a mixed bag at best. Sure, we all like to say we love Merle Haggard, but do we really? C'mon, you know Okie From Muskogee is a bullshit song, and it's really just a sonic version of someone waving a confederate flag around.

So no, it shouldn't be surprising that every country song at this point is "derp da South and derp trucks and liberals in their fancy cars and burp get over here gurl, get in my truck, and let's eat catfish... and drink moonshine before I fuck you in a hayfield" followed by some 'poetry' like "as the summer sun rains down on us, makin love like god intended." Eat shit country music.

[GulDukat]

I do appreciate country music a little more now after that Ken Burns documentary.

[Jinsai]

I do appreciate country music a little more now after that Ken Burns documentary.

There gets to be a point where we all just have to laugh at it though?

[GulDukat]

There gets to be a point where we all just have to laugh at it though?

The music from the documentary was better. Old-school country, like Tex Ritter, Johnny Cash, good stuff.

[Jinsai]

The music from the documentary was better. Old-school country, like Tex Ritter, Johnny Cash, good stuff.

Yeah... that's the thing I guess. Even though I was bashing Merle Haggard sorta there for a sec, old country is a completely different genre. It's basically just sampling genre hallmarks at this point. And I like Hank Williams and Johnny Cash, sure. But...

I dunno, it's the same thing where I don't know if we can blame Rage Against the Machine for Papa Roach or Limp Bizkit, but.. that's where it ultimately went. I guess at least in that instance, it was all grouped into some horrible "nu-metal" genre, and generally people don't think of Rage as nu-metal. But ALL this bullshit falls under a "country" umbrella...

And it's devolved into something really awful... maybe the worst part of it is the adoption of hip-hop swagger couched in this "hell yeah redneck hillbiilly" shit. Like "girl we just riding in, riding up, let y'all know what's up, blastin that country sound, put the top down, yeah boy, let's show em how we roll!" Fucking so cringe.