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Thread: Trump 2019 - There are still children in detention separated from their parents

  1. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat Mom View Post
    Foreign leaders are totally against this, though.
    Yes, but I'm sure they're recording everything, regardless.

    and yes, @cdm, we have a compromised justice department that is playing defense for a man who blatantly abuses the powers of his office. So... I don't know what the solution is, but when the impotence is due entirely to clearly "bad behavior," we gotta revise the apparently abusable laws.

    He's walking up to people on fifth avenue, shooting them in the face, and bragging about it. It's fucked up. He was right. We're hearing that "nobody is above the law" a lot right now, but clearly that's not true.

    EDIT: so now it’s coming out that Trump’s team accidentally sent response talking points to democrats in the House?
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/theweek...s-nancy-pelosi

    also, 538’s analysis of this seems dead on; it’s a big bad day for Trump no matter how they spin it, and if the whistleblower is testifying (and apparently is) that testimony will cover MULTPLE instances... and if THIS is the least offensive?!?!
    Last edited by Jinsai; 09-25-2019 at 02:30 PM.

  2. #1262
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    ** House Intel Committee will also review

  3. #1263
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    from the "Talking Points" (which I have seen Republicans REPEAT over and over today on TV):

    Myth: he President urged President Zelynskyy to work with Rudy Giuliani to investigate Biden's involvement in securing the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor eight times

    Fact: The President mentioned Rudy Giuliani only after Zelenskyy mentioned him first and referred to Biden in only one exchange.
    Okay, but:

    WHY was Zelenskyy ALREADY TALKING TO Giuliani?

    "I will personally tell you that one of my assistants· spoke with Mr.Giuliani just.recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and. we will meet once he comes to Ukraine."

    WHY WAS THE PRESIDENT'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY TALKING WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UKRAINE, IF NOT TO GET DIRT ON BIDEN???

    Trump: "Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor bf New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General.·Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could _speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine .were bad news so I just want to let you know that The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if
    you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me."


    Again, note that the prosecutor of Ukraine was far from "very good." He was actually a very very bad man. He resigned in disgrace.

    Shokin was named prosecutor general in February 2015, one year after Viktor Yanukovych, the country’s president at the time, fled the country for Russia following street protests and violent clashes in the capital, Kiev.

    Western officials hoped Shokin would aggressively prosecute the extensive corruption — reportedly totaling in the tens of billions of dollars — that authorities uncovered among Yanukovych and his associates.

    Public opinion swiftly turned against Shokin, however. He was seen as insufficiently pursuing, and in some instances hindering, cases against the Yanukovych-era officials.

    Among these was an investigation into Zlochevsky, Yanukovych’s minister for ecology and natural resources.

    In 2014, authorities in Britain froze $23 million linked to Zlochevsky as part of a case against him for alleged money laundering. Shokin’s predecessor, Vitaly Yarema, failed to provide documents requested by British officials, and the money was released in the beginning of 2015.

    In September 2015, then-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt gave a speech in which he criticized Shokin for his failure to actively combat corruption.

    Calls for Shokin’s dismissal grew through 2015. However, they were resisted by then-President Petro Poroshenko, who had appointed Shokin and with whom he shared a close relationship.

    To pressure Poroshenko to dismiss Shokin, the Obama administration threatened to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees.

    In March 2016, Shokin was dismissed.

  4. #1264
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    Now Trump is throwing Pence under the bus.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...-calls-1512771

    “I think you should ask for Vice President Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple of conversations also,” Trump said at a news conference on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York. “I could save you a lot of time. They were all perfect. Nothing was mentioned of any import other than congratulations.”

    During the news conference, Trump revealed that the July 25 conversation was the second phone call between the two leaders and said he would release the first if prompted.

    Some of Trump’s top aides have also been drawn into the scandal. The Washington Post reported that Trump asked his acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, to hold back millions of dollars in military aid to Ukraine just days before the July 25 call with Zelensky, and the memo of Trump’s call showed the president urging Zelensky to work with Attorney General William Barr to investigate the Bidens.
    .
    Last edited by allegro; 09-25-2019 at 08:52 PM.

  5. #1265
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    what I don't get is how this isn't playing WAY WORSE for William Barr... Jesus, he sounds like a lapdog in this exchange.

  6. #1266
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    Oh MY GOD ... HOLY SHIT!

    HOLY SHIT!

    Read the thread!

    Omg

    The “very good prosecutor” that Trump is talking about isn’t the one Biden and the G7 got to resign!

    And Giuliani has been doing this shit with the Ukraine IN PLAIN SIGHT in his Twitter feed for months!





    Last edited by allegro; 09-25-2019 at 10:28 PM.

  7. #1267
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    The slow-rising central horror of "Watergate" is not that it might grind down to the reluctant impeachment of a vengeful thug of a president whose entire political career has been a monument to the same kind of cheap shots and treachery he finally got nailed for, but that we might somehow fail to learn something from it.
    -Hunter S. Thompson, 1973
    seems appropriate

  8. #1268
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    What blows my mind is that something like this Ukraine scandal would have ended, or SERIOUSLY compromised, any other presidency, as would about 100 other things trump has done.

    It's like, how the fuck did we get here?

  9. #1269
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    Mitch Mcconnell, basically

  10. #1270
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  11. #1271
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    I think I figured out why Trump sees the release of this "imitation transcript" as a good thing for him though.

    Look at how much it claims that the Ukrainian president stroked his ego at the start. He flatters the fuck out of Trump, no wonder Trump sees it as a positive. Trump could be in the middle of fucking a ham sandwhich, but if the other person is praising him then he'll say he did things perfectly.

  12. #1272
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    I'm not sure what to think of the way Pelosi is (allegedly) pursuing impeachment. Yesterday I read that she's likely to narrow the scope of the impeachment to just this Ukraine shit, and not bother with "muddying the waters" by bringing up all the other crimes he's committed. On the one hand, I understand the appeal of that approach, cause the Ukraine shit is such a obvious slam dunk, but that also makes it easier Trump's team to play defense. If there's an array of crimes being brought up, it casts a wider net.

  13. #1273
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    Also, the whistleblower complaint just got posted: https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...nt_unclass.pdf

  14. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantra View Post
    Also, the whistleblower complaint just got posted: https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...nt_unclass.pdf
    That is...wow.

    This is deeper than just the Ukraine issue. There are more word-for-word call transcripts buried in that classified system for no other reason than they are proof of impeachable offenses.

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantra View Post
    I'm not sure what to think of the way Pelosi is (allegedly) pursuing impeachment. Yesterday I read that she's likely to narrow the scope of the impeachment to just this Ukraine shit, and not bother with "muddying the waters" by bringing up all the other crimes he's committed. On the one hand, I understand the appeal of that approach, cause the Ukraine shit is such a obvious slam dunk, but that also makes it easier Trump's team to play defense. If there's an array of crimes being brought up, it casts a wider net.
    I think this complaint clarifies that decision. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but the Ukraine issue is bad and provable and there appear to be other questionable calls being hidden. Casting a wider net looks at more potential crimes but it's also more time and resource consuming. Impeaching in the House is an almost certainty but convicting in the Senate isn't in which case the Dems will frame it as the voters are the ones to convict him out of office. Assuming this process takes months, time is not necessarily on the Dems side.

    Again, I don't know if that's the way to play the hand and I'm not really sure what to think about Pelosi's leadership here but I can see some merits to it.
    Last edited by cdm; 09-26-2019 at 11:33 AM. Reason: clarification in bold

  16. #1276
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    I wonder what the political fallout will be for the 2020 election and how it will impact any or all candidates?
    Too soon to tell?
    It's going to be a shit show for sure and I'm already fatigued, and I'm sure many others are too, from all the news but as some have mentioned before the GOP relies on apathy to get away with some of the horrid shit that's already happened.

    Can anyone make some solid predictions?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/u...peachment.html

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...e90_story.html

  17. #1277
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    So he openly encouraged foreign governments to interfere in our election... after the whole Russia-gate scandal, after the gaffe where he was excoriated for saying he’d listen to dirt from foreign sources on political opponents... he went ahead and still tried to pressure Ukraine to interfere, and he dragged his pit bull AG along... just holy shit. If we don’t do SOMETHING to demonstrate that there’s consequences for trying this sort of shit... What kind of precedent does this establish exactly?

  18. #1278
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    This testimony with the Director of National Intelligence is making me want to violently bash my head into a wall. There's seriously no hope here, if still none of this warrants bipartisan action.

  19. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    So he openly encouraged foreign governments to interfere in our election... after the whole Russia-gate scandal, after the gaffe where he was excoriated for saying he’d listen to dirt from foreign sources on political opponents... he went ahead and still tried to pressure Ukraine to interfere, and he dragged his pit bull AG along... just holy shit. If we don’t do SOMETHING to demonstrate that there’s consequences for trying this sort of shit... What kind of precedent does this establish exactly?
    Yeah, irregardless what political party you're a part of...this would set some VERY bad precedent. Actually he already has in multiple ways, but it would render our government as non-functional.

  20. #1280
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    Exactly... if you can go unpunished for trying this, you can’t win against it without doing the same. It’ll set that as the new normal; we’ll see candidates openly courting countries to hack election machines. Where is the line if this clearly isn’t it?

  21. #1281
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    Remarkable these Republicans are willing to go to bat for THIS president. It's really shameful. Maybe eventually they'll feel that shame but probably not.

  22. #1282
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    Don't forget though, Hillary Clinton did something with some emails, so people had no choice but to vote for Trump.

  23. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdm View Post
    Impeaching in the House is an almost certainty but not so in the Senate in which case the Dems will frame it as the voters are the ones to convict him out of office. Assuming this process takes months, time is not necessarily on the Dems side.
    The Senate doesn’t impeach. Only the House impeaches. (Synonymous with indict.) The Senate then conducts a trial. Pelosi KNOWS that a Senate trial will not yield majority votes to convict, but they’re banking on the SENATE HEARINGS as being enough to inform voters as to what a criminal Trump is.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/impe...ry?id=51202880

    I don’t know that Lindsey Graham (Chairman of the Senate Judicial Committee) can stall an impeachment trial. There is a process, via the Constitution. The Trial is conducted by a justice of the United States Supreme Court.

    For example timeline, see Clinton:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impe...f_Bill_Clinton

    Clinton became only the second American president to be impeached (the other being Andrew Johnson who was impeached in 1868) on December 19, 1998, when the House formally adopted the articles of impeachment and forwarded them to the United States Senate for adjudication. The trial in the Senate began in January 1999, with Chief Justice William Rehnquist presiding. On February 12, Clinton was acquitted of the charges against him, when the Senate failed to convict him on either of them by the necessary two-thirds majority vote.
    Last edited by allegro; 09-26-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  24. #1284
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    I think it's actually possible that this could be closer in the senate trial than anyone imagined. Their jobs are at stake. I think anyone who isn't presiding over a jurisdiction that's clearly "trump town" territory might actually reconsider how this is going to look to be complicit in something that is so clearly going to go down in history badly.

  25. #1285
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    I haven't heard anything about Moscow Mitch talking about it yet. I tried to find something yesterday, but it seems odd that he's silent on the issue.

    Is it possible that he may have reached a tipping point? I mean, I know I said the opposite recently, but he must have some morals of some kind..
    ..this is beyond anything he could possibly write off.

    Is it possible the Senate might actually convict him? Or at least open up primaries to choose another candidate for 2020?

    I can't believe I'm going to say this, but can Mitt Romney please launch a campaign?

  26. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo View Post
    I can't believe I'm going to say this, but can Mitt Romney please launch a campaign?
    Some Republican challengers have already launched campaigns against Trump, and four states have announced that they won’t hold Republican primaries:

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...engers-1483126

  27. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat Mom View Post
    Some Republican challengers have already launched campaigns against Trump, and four states have announced that they won’t hold Republican primaries:

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...engers-1483126
    I remember that, but that was before the Ukrainian whistleblower scandal erupted.

    I should have clarified, is it too late for them to reverse course?

  28. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat Mom View Post
    The Senate doesn’t impeach. Only the House impeaches.
    I know the difference. Sloppy wordage on my part.

  29. #1289
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    The big parts of this whistleblower report seem to be:

    * There are a bunch of White House employees who are concerned about Trump Administration activities, enough that they reported these activities to a member of the intelligence community.

    * The White House was concerned enough about it that it moved the phone transcripts to a highly-classified computer network system.

  30. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo View Post
    I haven't heard anything about Moscow Mitch talking about it yet. I tried to find something yesterday, but it seems odd that he's silent on the issue.

    Is it possible that he may have reached a tipping point?
    He's waiting to see how public opinion shifts, and I'm sure he's suspecting his golden goose might have just croaked and needs to be harvested and cooked ASAP.

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