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Faceplams: Originally Posted by sweeterthan
Stubby Member
tempus est umbra in mente
You know, I love this episode, and in any other timeline, I'd get the point of bringing it up. But right now, shit is really fucked up.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
Bite me
How did that get verified?????
Edit: Never mind, it’s The Team Trump Propaganda Channel.
Last edited by allegro; 04-16-2020 at 08:20 PM.
Head like a head
Jack.
Active Member
See, people of color and people liberal enough to appreciate tattoos are voting for Biden. This just further cements my support for him.
Throbbing Member
Texas Governor rolling out his executive order. Thankfully he's committed to leaving schools closed for the rest of the year. I was concerned they would throw the kids back in school since "they aren't susceptible to Covid".
Bite me
Re Biden’s VP, I’m going to put some money on Rep. Barbara Lee.
Bite me
Did he say really young? Meh, whatever.
My Husband is putting his money on Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham.
Last edited by allegro; 04-17-2020 at 08:09 PM.
Active Member
She finished 5th in her home state. We of course like alot of her policies, but she's shown she can't be trusted & her lack of popularity would add nothing to the ticket. Plus she'd be giving up her Senate seat as discussed. She's a non-starter if Biden's people are smart (they're not).
Active Member
My money's on Hilary for VP.
jk
Administrator
I did, boo. I was seconding you.
Administrator
People do this all the time, underestimating their platform and influence. Two people liked your post on a message board that is public. That's influence, even if it's just for those two people. I don't know where they live, but there's always a chance that your influence from your solidly blue state could influence people in purple and red states and cause them to do the same thing. We minimize our networks but they're still networks and your opinions can carry weight. Wield that power responsibly.
Administrator
1. Not a fervent Biden supporter. He's a means to an eventual progressive end and I'm reading the room and choosing between the two likely choices.
2. I get that, but on here, for the most part, people already have their minds made up so all sense of decorum tends to go out the window when I'm discussing stuff like this now.
3. I engaged in this exercise with someone on a different platform recently who posts here often and after trying to make points and give examples, he ignored me and decided not to engage, likely because he just didn't have any solid reasoning past a stubborn sense of pride and not wanting to entertain other ideas. In the end, it became a circle jerk between him and another guy trying to dunk on someone else who wasn't being as nice as I was.
Active Member
Two words: Supreme Court
Do you want Trump to nominate a replacement for RBG should her seat become vacant?
To those that sat out 2016 because Hillary didn't "earn your vote," was "establishment," etc. Do you like wearing a mask when you go to Walgreens? Because if she (or Romney, Obama, etc.) had been president now, this pandemic would not be happening on this scale.
I'm sorry, but if you live in a swing-state and sit this one out because you feel Biden didn't "earn your vote," you are just being petulant.
Administrator
At the end of the day, I'm willing to try to win over as many people as I can to get them to vote for Biden because I'm still going to fucking work everyday and because I'm sick of this shit. I'm tired of the kids in cages and I'm tired of being freaked out someone gets too close near me when I'm walking my clueless dog every day because our sun-downing idiot ignored this shit because of the fucking stock market.
But when I see lost causes and people decrying the whole thing because their person didn't get the nomination and are threatening to let the fucking country burn down and let more people die, then my "fuck this shit" posts start flying. If you're too thin-skinned and stubborn to handle it, then you should re-examine your dumb stance. Some of us live in red states and are working as hard as we can to deal with this shit so you solid blue folks can sit on Twitter and shitpost away.
Active Member
A little off-topic, but I think Donald Trump and Gul Dukat would have had a very good relationship.
I can imagine Weyoun and Dukat charming Trump, with the U.S. making a peace treaty with the Dominion.
Last edited by GulDukat; 04-17-2020 at 07:50 PM.
Active Member
With you there.
Trollhunter
@allegro Some of that is true. Actually the overall point is true (about having to vote for Biden now).
But let’s not pretend—you were against Sanders from the beginning. First, it was just being in Warren’s corner and that’s fine. And respectable. I was putting the two of them as my 1a and 1b for a long stretch. It got troublesome when Warren wasn’t gaining traction. Then out came the two pronged bullshit about Sanders not having policies and giving away free stuff which anyone with a brain, yourself included, knows are fucking lies. In fact, many of Warren’s own policies were cribbed from Sanders which some adjustments. That’s not an insult. It’s why I liked her so much. She’s a billion times better a candidate than HRC was.
Those Warren policies, which somehow were more viable than they were with Sanders. That’s some impressive mental gymnastics too. Holy shit, that’s weak sauce.
Anyway, next we got the story about Sanders saying he didn’t see Americans voting for a woman for president this time which that group of Warren supporters I spoke of in a previous post took completely wrong. Still it is harsh news. We are not as progressive as a country as some of us thought we were (myself included) during the Obama years and 2016 really was a wake up call. And he was correct because then Warren bottomed out and dropped out and now the reason you just couldn’t back the one progressive candidate was black voters.
So, yes, I’m pissed off about how this all shook out but the difference is my sour grapes won’t keep me from doing the right thing. I wish some of the Warren camp and democratic voters in general would have made a better choice for themselves and the country and backed the one remaining progressive candidate. I wish Warren chose progress instead of safe politics too but I learned another lesson this time around. 2016 wasn’t a fluke for her. She didn’t back him then and she didn’t do it now. I’m the idiot for thinking this time might be different. I also learned my disdain for the south is largely valid. It’s like we really are two different countries and it especially feels shitty when you’re stuck in a red state.
So, fuck I’m exhausted and tired of repeating myself but I am voting for Biden. I hate it. But I hate the pretending maybe just as much if not more. He shouldn’t be pretending to give a shit about progressive policies.
And at some point, just say you don’t like Sanders and if it wasn’t going to be Warren you’d go for anyone but Sanders.
I like you, I respect you and I would definitely understand that better than these aforementioned reasons.
Last edited by Swykk; 04-17-2020 at 08:33 PM.
Throbbing Member
I mean, personally, I'm not a fan of her (not gonna make too many friends with this - sorry!). I went into this election season considering her my second choice and by the time she bowed out I didn't think too much of her or her political instincts. She tried to make a place for herself in the race mostly by going harder against the only other (allegedly) progressive candidate than I ever remember her going on Biden, glaring given their contentious history, and the whole "Sanders said a woman couldn't win" scandal was an obvious political stunt - it was initially reported by press covering her campaign, it clearly came from her people, and she waited until he issued a denial to have her cake and eat it to, confirming it in the name of honesty while basically saying "but we have bigger things to worry about" and acting like that controversy wasn't an intentional attack that was front and center by design. I'll never forget the moment in the CNN debate where Sanders was asked point blank to confirm he never said it and the moderator immediately followed him saying "that's correct" by saying, "Senator Warren, what did you think when Senator Sanders told you a woman could not win the election?" It was dumb shit the media ate up, it predictably backfired on her, and Sanders supporters getting pissed about it gave her most personally invested supporters an excuse to embrace Joe Biden, her political opposite, when she dropped out a week too late. People can think what they like, but if her and Sanders' places in the first four states were reversed - if Warren did as well as Sanders did in the first four contests, and he did as badly as she did but still stayed in through Super Tuesday - Warren stans would hate him even more than they already (apparently) do, and they would be right to, because the only responsible move in that situation (if getting a progressive the nomination, and not winning the nomination, was the main goal) would have been dropping out and endorsing the viable candidate, especially when the centrists consolidated to roadblock progressives. It might not have made a difference, but there would have been a chance. I tried to look past Warren's spectacularly wrong-headed DNA test fiasco but all in all, her campaign's strategy and tactics didn't seem all that far removed from that disastrous, self-defeating brand. In my eyes her main accomplishment was ensuring neither progressive candidate could win.
But really, all of Biden's considered running mates have their flaws, and when I consider one of his main issues - that even now, in a massive public health crisis where millions are losing their employer-based insurance and costs are skyrocketing, he is so married to austerity that he cannot meaningfully commit to universal healthcare because of the cost - I could see some potential value in his running mate being someone like Warren who is at least associated with pushing for a more accommodating, comprehensive system of healthcare like Medicare For All. Then again, as you say, her performance in the primaries indicates she might not bolster the ticket too much as far as votes go. But the same is true for Klobuchar, even more so, and Klobuchar's embodiment of "we can't pay for that" austerity-fetishization makes her simultaneously an ideal fit for Biden's brand of politics and an even less helpful running mate in the general. So while Warren has plenty of faults, she's still not the worst option being floated.
Your points are well written and well taken. As I've said before, I'm going to end up voting for Biden because as much as he sucks, there's no other choice I've been left with. I guess all I would say is that a poster like @bobbie solo seems less like a 'lost cause' and more like someone disgusted that our only viable option is the guy whose boss built the cages that Trump filled with children. I think a lot of people are desperate to leverage their discontent into some kind of meaningful concession from the only viable non-Republican candidate before we reach November (he said as much in his post, that he wants Biden to win him over) - withholding their support at this stage is the only kind of power they feel they have left, and to some extent I understand it. But I also understand the frustration and anger coming from people like you who know how much worse Trump is than anything we'll get from Biden, that we need all hands on deck to take down Trump and have no patience for that kind of rhetoric. I get it. I wouldn't be voting for a candidate as weak as Biden if I didn't.
Bite me
1) Thank you.
2) I'm tired of repeating myself, too, and deleted my post. I'm done.
3) I never hated Sanders. I was one of Sanders' most fervent supporters before early-2016. But, it doesn't matter, now. That's all water under the bridge. Because this isn't about me.
This is about so many things not about me that I'm doing this as a mission for people whose lives are actually in danger, whose lives will be eternally fucked-up if Trump stays in office (abortion laws, immigration laws, black rights and, yes, healthcare and the environment, etc.) If the majority of black voters had voted for Sanders, I wouldn't have believed that any of what Sanders was pushing was possible, but I would have gotten on board and voted for Sanders because that's what they wanted so that's what I want.
Active Member
My man. Solidarity Forever.
Active Member
I'm not a fan either anymore for all the reasons you listed, as usual much more eloquently than I ever could. I just meant that she had a long, long list of policy ideas and while not all were super duper left, plenty were strongly enough progressive ideas to get behind. She even had a few that went farther left than Bernie, but they escape me atm & it's irrelevant now b/c her campaign for higher officer is over for good.
Her political acumen is decidedly poor. Only good decision she made was in 2016 to stay out of Hillary's way. Backing Bernie would have been bold & the right thing to do, but I understand the political expediency of steering clear of Hillary's wrath bc almost everyone assumed she was gonna be prez. The big mistake she made this time around was when she hired a few Obama staffers for her campaign & they made this weird move of actively lobbying for the backing of over apparently 200 former Obama staffers:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...cratic-Primary
THAT was the moment she shifted her campaign away from the progressivism that had her jump out in popularity initially. THAT is when she blinked on M4A, b/c they told her too. The progressive base caught it, dropped her for the most part (alot of goofball YAS QUEEN types stuck around) & her goose was cooked from then on as she tried to play cute straddling the center/progressive line.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
And there it is. The narrative that folks supported her because she is a woman shortly after demanding she step and and endorse a much less talented man.
She never once blinked on Medicare for All. Out of all of the lies told about her, that is one of the weirdest ones to me. Releasing a phased in plan instead of promising end results with no implementation and counting on people's ignorance on the difference is how policy works, and demonstrated her strength where he is weak.
Look at the rankings for progressive voting Senators - he ranks 9, she ranks 5, and Harris blows both of them away, coming in a 2 (which shocked me). Hell of a centrist!
Bite me
12/31/18 - Warren outlines 2020 Presidential bid
12/31/18 - See also.
On Monday, Ms. Warren called Mr. Sanders — a fellow Senate liberal who is also popular with grass-roots activists — as a courtesy and had a brief, matter-of-fact conversation, according to a Democrat briefed on the call.
2/9/19 - Warren announced her candidacy in the 2020 race
2/19/19 - Sanders announced his candidacy
This idea that Warren somehow fucked up Sanders’ candidacy is contrived, backward and sexist. And incorrect.
Last edited by allegro; 04-18-2020 at 12:20 AM.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
Must have been the DNC.
Throbbing Member
This is the last time I'll get into this. But regardless of who entered the race first, a generally accepted viewpoint going into the primaries was that they should try to cooperate and let the voters decide who was viable frontrunner in the progressive lane, with the withering candidate throwing their support behind the ascendant one to consolidate support. As I've said ad nauseam, if Warren performed as well as Sanders did, and he performed as poorly as she did, in the first four states, he would have been an asshole not to suspend his campaign and endorse her before Super Tuesday - especially if the centrists consolidated in an organized effort to roadblock progressives like they did in this cycle. We'll never know what he would have done in that situation. Maybe he would have been an asshole and have stayed in through Super Tuesday. I wouldn't have blamed Warren supporters for resenting him if he did. It would have been a transparently selfish move.
Surprises me too to be honest. I think her record as a California's Attorney General made her an easy target for the far left but for obvious reasons it's pretty difficult to hold that kind of position and not offend those sensibilities in some regard. Her public support of single-payer healthcare and reforming the federal scheduling of cannabis are the kind of policy positions that would help Biden - I tend to think skewing toward the left rather than the center is more electorally viable, in addition to being (more importantly) the right thing to do morally. I also did not realize she was one of the few that didn't hysterically overreact to Ilhan Omar's criticism of AIPAC on Twitter, with a pretty fair and measured response, which I find a breath of fresh air considering how powerful that lobby is in both parties. So yeah, in many ways, I'll be relieved if it's her and not the Klob.
Bite me
Yeah ... no
This was like Highlander: There could be only one of them on the ticket from Day One.
Doesn’t matter. Black voters weren’t getting behind Warren OR Sanders. Their progressive candidate was Harris and she got knocked out by a bunch of white dudes right away.
Performance, let’s look at Bernie in Vermont in 2020:
Delegate count Sanders: 11 Biden: 5
Popular vote Sanders: 79,921 Biden: 34,669
Warren: 19,785 Bloomberg: 14,828
Percentage:
Sanders: 50.57%. Biden: 21.94% Warren 12.52% Bloomberg: 9.38%
Compare to 2016 in Vermont:
Delegate count Sanders: 16 Clinton: 0
Popular vote Sanders: 115,900 Clinton: 18,338
Percentage Sanders: 85.69% Clinton: 13.56%
The reason Sanders performed so well in 2016 wasn’t a pro-Bernie vote, it was anti-Hillary.
The reason why Trump won in 2016 wasn’t pro-Trump, it was anti-Hillary.
The anti-Trump people are now going to do the same.
Last edited by allegro; 04-18-2020 at 11:17 AM.
24.24.2.2866
Good comedic rundown on Biden.
Trollhunter
Still pushing that bullshit about Sanders not having policies. It doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t track.
Moving on, if the roles were reversed and Sanders was the one not winning votes, not winning his home state, dropping out, and Warren was the one going against Biden; I would be 1000000% in her corner as I was for Sanders. And you bet your life if Sanders was playing it safe and not endorsing her, I would be just as critical because it’s the cause that matters most (in case I haven’t repeatedly made that point clear).
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