Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[thevoid99]

Full Translation Of French Anti-#MeToo Manifesto Signed By Catherine Deneuve

https://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-...herine-deneuve

I'm actually in agreement with what she's saying. It's becoming a fucking witch hunt and it's fucking scary. All of these movements is eventually going to spark a backlash as Rose McGowan has become a nutcase and used her tirade to do reality TV.

I do feel bad for these women who have been assaulted and mistreated but targeting all of these men is going too far. No one will win this. I was happy for all of this to come out as there are a lot of men who are scumbag but it's getting out of control now. Plus, I believe that some of the women who have claimed to be harassed and such are full of shit. The ones who are lying and using this movement for their own bullshit are just as bad as the men they claimed to be harassed by. I think the inevitable conclusion will be that.... nothing has changed.

[playwithfire]

but it's getting out of control now

The accusations I've been seeing have been pretty consistently credible. Where is your personal line with who should come forward and who shouldn't? Are you aware of how often sexual harassment happens? Can you cite some examples of claims you think are bullshit?

when their only crime was to touch a woman’s knee, try to steal a kiss, talk about "intimate" things during a work meal, or send sexually-charged messages to women who did not return their interest.

Wow, what a ridiculous concept to think that this behavior is gross. Generally, I do not touch women's knees unless I already am ~clearly aware of their sexual attraction to me~ or otherwise aware that they're fine with it -- there is no other reason I would need to have to touch their knee. Why would I touch their knee? I don't talk about sexual shit at work meals because I'm fucking working, and I don't assume the comfort level of other people. And there's also this wild idea that I generally make sure that someone is attracted to me before I send sexually charged messages. Crazy, I know. I have slept with coworkers, but it's like by recognizing power dynamics and being super respectful it's gone okay. Wow. Wild.

And, if for some reason I did think asinine behavior like the above was appropriate, I'd probably have the minimum of self awareness to realize that there'd be at least a minimum of risk for goin' for it like that, and that I might get called out for it. Or rejected. And wow, I'd kinda be selfish as fuck to put the pursuit of my own desires over the comfort of others.

With the #MeToo dialogue, there's this whole thing where good people do bad shit. And people seem to have a hard time grasping that. I'd say most men have likely done some shit at some point that wasn't great in terms of respecting boundaries. Because we live in a society that doesn't teach this shit. We're learning.

And if someone is such a precious little fucking baby that they can't handle the idea that they might have made a significant mistake at some point in their life and to choose to improve upon their fucking actions, then holy shit how is it possible to exist in the world when you're that sentimental and fragile. That you can't handle the idea that folks you know or admire did that shit.

It's not a fragile thing, to hold someone accountable for their actions, or to speak up. And, kinda entirely fuck the idea that the way women achieve ~empowerment~ is by enduring some pointless bullshit.

[thevoid99]

The accusations I've been seeing have been pretty consistently credible. Where is your personal line with who should come forward and who shouldn't? Are you aware of how often sexual harassment happens? Can you cite some examples of claims you think are bullshit?



Wow, what a ridiculous concept to think that this behavior is gross. Generally, I do not touch women's knees unless I already am ~clearly aware of their sexual attraction to me~ or otherwise aware that they're fine with it -- there is no other reason I would need to have to touch their knee. Why would I touch their knee? I don't talk about sexual shit at work meals because I'm fucking working, and I don't assume the comfort level of other people. And there's also this wild idea that I generally make sure that someone is attracted to me before I send sexually charged messages. Crazy, I know. I have slept with coworkers, but it's like by recognizing power dynamics and being super respectful it's gone okay. Wow. Wild.

And, if for some reason I did think asinine behavior like the above was appropriate, I'd probably have the minimum of self awareness to realize that there'd be at least a minimum of risk for goin' for it like that, and that I might get called out for it. Or rejected. And wow, I'd kinda be selfish as fuck to put the pursuit of my own desires over the comfort of others.

With the #MeToo dialogue, there's this whole thing where good people do bad shit. And people seem to have a hard time grasping that. I'd say most men have likely done some shit at some point that wasn't great in terms of respecting boundaries. Because we live in a society that doesn't teach this shit. We're learning.

And if someone is such a precious little fucking baby that they can't handle the idea that they might have made a significant mistake at some point in their life and to choose to improve upon their fucking actions, then holy shit how is it possible to exist in the world when you're that sentimental and fragile. That you can't handle the idea that folks you know or admire did that shit.

It's not a fragile thing, to hold someone accountable for their actions, or to speak up. And, kinda entirely fuck the idea that the way women achieve ~empowerment~ is by enduring some pointless bullshit.

I'm aware of what is happening but do you honestly think all of this movement is going to change anything? I believe about most of these accusations but we need to understand both sides of the story. It seems like a simple apology is no longer enough. Let's not forget that some of these women would also do things to each other just to get a role or something and we need to think of them as saints or crusaders? Fuck that. I know I'm going to get facepalms for this and quite frankly. I don't give a fuck.

[playwithfire]

I'm aware of what is happening but do you honestly think all of this movement is going to change anything? I believe about most of these accusations but we need to understand both sides of the story. It seems like a simple apology is no longer enough. Let's not forget that some of these women would also do things to each other just to get a role or something and we need to think of them as saints or crusaders? Fuck that. I know I'm going to get facepalms for this and quite frankly. I don't give a fuck.

- The movement has already changed things. You can see it in the amount of people feeling empowered to finally speak up, men (and others) becoming increasingly careful of their actions, etc. It may not *erase the problem* -- but isn't a bit of change still worth while?

- The men/people who were accused are more than welcome to publicly account for their actions. Instead we're mostly seeing a swath of non-apologies. Remember Conor Oberst? If you're defensible, defend yourself.

- An apology is a part of it, not repeating it in future behavior and truly understanding what they did wrong is another part. Dan Harmon got it right.

- Yes, women can be predators too. Women have been accused. What is the problem here? Do you want us to talk about women more even though men do this at a much higher rate and it wouldn't be accurate? Can we not keep talking about the men? I don't understand what purpose "but women do it too" serves in relevance to this.

[october_midnight]

The Aziz Ansari story was awful to read through.

[october_midnight]

Damn, that sucks. Fuck these clowns...

[telee.kom]

I don't understand how the Ansari thing is a sexual misconduct

[Sarah K]

I don't understand how the Ansari thing is a sexual misconduct

... How?

The ONLY time you can continue if a person repeatedly (or even once) says "No" and tries to get away from you, is if a CNC situation has been discussed and negotiated AT LENGTH before. This is generally something that is never, ever going to happen on a first date.

[telee.kom]

... How?

The ONLY time you can continue if a person repeatedly (or even once) says "No" and tries to get away from you, is if a CNC situation has been discussed and negotiated AT LENGTH before. This is generally something that is never, ever going to happen on a first date.

This article has pretty detailed account of pretty much everything that happened that night starting with what wine they ordered and ending with how much fingers Ansari stuck inside her vagina -> https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

And she doesn't mention saying no once. It's a fucking tinder date gone wrong, not sexual misconduct. It's really shitty of her to bring such personal details of his to the press.

[Sarah K]

And she doesn't mention saying no once. It's a fucking tinder date gone wrong, not sexual misconduct. It's really shitty of her to bring such personal details of his to the press.

“I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’”

“He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

“It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was.

“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”

“I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”

“I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’” He then poured her a glass and handed it to her.

He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.

“After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this.

???

[sweeterthan]

What don’t you understand? I just read it and the account is awful to me.


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[Swykk]

What?

I had a good amount of respect for Aziz and this is horrifying.

Are you really paring it down to her not saying the word “No.” The parts about her attempting to stop him don’t strike you as obvious “NOT WANTED” signs?

Edit: apparently my keyboard stopped working unbeknownst to me making it look like I had a stroke mid sentence.

[telee.kom]

It is obvious to me, it might not be obvious to him I don't know, but what she could and should have done is to say fuck off, or just leave is she didn't like where things were going. Ansari comes off as an asshat, but sexual predator? I don't think so. This wasn't even about some power dynamics between the two, it was just a bad date.

[Sarah K]

You think that Aziz doesn't have like, 837734834 levels of power over a 22-year old photographer who lives with roommates?

When you are being relentlessly followed and pushed and groped, sometimes it is easy to flip over to self-preservation mode and follow along with it rather than try to escape. She attempted to escape from him multiple times with no success.

It is absurd to say what she "should have" done under these circumstances. Until you are fearing for your safety and having your body violated, you never know how you are going to react. As you said, this account is very detailed and very recent. It is super scary.

[BRoswell]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that she would be so uncomfortable being around him, but then agree to that, and then go back to being incredibly uncomfortable. There's a break in the logic of the story that I can't ignore. Like I said, I was on board with it up until that point. If I hadn't read that bit, I would have been just as up in arms as other people have been, but I can't read that part and then read the rest and not think that she may not be being 100% truthful. I have people in my life who have been sexually assaulted and even raped, and have heard their stories several times, so this is not a case of me being completely unaware of how things can go in those situations. For what it's worth, it doesn't sound like Aziz is a total saint in this scenario, but I feel like there is more to this story than what is being told.

[telee.kom]

She tried to escape from him doing what? Going in bed with him? I think this attitude is wrong. I thought this movement was (among other things) about teaching women, they are not required to sleep with anyone they don't want to. Not about making sob stories about dates with celebrities that didn't go as planned. Because that's what this is. Ansari was horny asshole, she wasn't feeling it, she should put an end to it right there and then, not playing along.

[BRoswell]

She tried to escape from him doing what? Going in bed with him? I think this attitude is wrong. I thought this movement was (among other things) about teaching women, they are not required to sleep with anyone they don't want to. Not about making sob stories about dates with celebrities that didn't go as planned. Because that's what this is. Ansari was horny asshole, she wasn't feeling it, she should put an end to it right there and then, not playing along.

By the way, I'd like to point out that I'm not in agreement with this sort of thinking.

[Sarah K]

She tried to put an end to it. Multiple times.

[BRoswell]

She tried to put an end to it. Multiple times.

And between those times, she had consensual oral sex with him. That's the part that makes no sense to me. I can't see how she would allow that if she couldn't even stand him kissing her. You can call it self-preservation, but if she said okay to that, she at least has to take some responsibility for that act. That was not him forcing himself on her in that moment. He asked to go down on her, and she said yes, and then she reciprocated. She could have said no, like she did to everything else. That's why I have an issue with it. Why would she say no to everything else, but not something like that? Something that seems (to me) to be much more violating than kissing and touching. It just doesn't add up.

Either way, I don't think we're going to be able to agree about this, so I'm going to leave my end of the conversation at that. I still support women and men who are going through terribly fucked up things right now, and the fact that we even have to ask if something happened 100% to the letter should tell you how bad it is right now. I would like to believe accusers all of the time, but we don't live in a world where every single person tells the whole truth, and if I read something that doesn't make sense, I have to question it, whether it sounds terrible or not. That's just how I am.

[sweeterthan]

A bad date is when the conversation is awkward or someone makes racist jokes.

This is extreme. He expects to fuck her on the first date. Despite all the signs that she doesn’t want to, he keeps trying. She finally does leave but not before more attempts at persuasion. If he actually gave a shit about her, the encounter would’ve stopped when she said chill out. It’s obvious to me he doesn’t care about anything but getting laid.
How is this not obvious to everyone reading this?


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[telee.kom]

If he actually gave a shit about her, the encounter would’ve stopped when she said chill out. It’s obvious to me he doesn’t care about anything but getting laid.

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

[Sarah K]

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

Not asking for consent, and then ignoring a person's protests is definitely a part of it.

Let me tell you about a rape that I experienced.

I was play partners with a man for roughly a year. This was at the beginning of my BDSM exploration. Most of our interactions were kink based, and had nothing to do with sex. His penis was too large for me to have much of an interest in fucking him. I did perform oral sex on him a handful of times, though. The last time I saw him was the second time that we ever had any penetrative sex (which I consented to). He took my consent for PIV to mean he had consent for everything. Him, apparently watching entirely too much pornography, thought that spit was sufficient lube for a large penis to anally penetrate me, even though I had never had anal sex at this point. I said "no", I said "stop", and I tried to get away. I was crying. He hit me in the back of the head, shoved my face down into a tote filled with books that was against my wall, and told me to "stop whining". I continued to cry and completely froze up until he was done.

I had had consensual sexual interactions with this man on multiple occasions. On this very afternoon, I had willingly and enthusiastically consented to PIV with him. I withdrew my consent once he started trying to anally penetrate me.

Consent can be revoked at any time for any reason. Prior sexual interactions, even in that moment does not mean that a person can no longer withdraw their consent.

[sweeterthan]

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

No. Metoo is about solidarity and truth in numbers. It turns out everyone you know has been harassed or assualted because problematic patriarchal bullshit has been accepted and hidden for centuries. Metoo says not anymore. We will not keep your secrets and we will not take your shit.

There’s a difference between wanting to get laid and trying to get laid at all cost. Her account says he didn’t listen. Even if she was supposedly a willing participant at some point, at other points she was not. She’s allowed to change her mind at any fucking point. Fuck anyone who doesn’t agree. Read about consent. Learn.

The oral sex happened after she already said chill. He didn’t listen. She has to spell it out for him. He didn’t care about the verbal and non verbal cues. He was not concerned about her at all.

[r_z]

Her account

By the way, people... this is what it is. Her account. And that's what's problematic with this campaign. Azari's being morally crucified, details about his private/sex life laid out to the public... on the account of a single person.

[telee.kom]

There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of. She didn't spell out shit for him. You are spinning her story to fit your narrative. She should have said no or stop or something, not just thinking it. It is super obvious to you, as you read through her thought process during all of this, but I sure would be getting some mixed signals if a girl started to suck my dick and at no point SAID she doesn't want to do this. He was pushing her, he was being an asshole and I think that is obvious to anyone who read this story. But if you revoke your consent, you should probably say so to the other involved party in that moment, not print it in the papers months later or whatever.

[Sarah K]

There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of.

Refusing to accept verbal and non-verbal indications that someone is not giving you consent is both.

[sweeterthan]

There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of. She didn't spell out shit for him. You are spinning her story to fit your narrative. She should have said no or stop or something, not just thinking it. It is super obvious to you, as you read through her thought process during all of this, but I sure would be getting some mixed signals if a girl started to suck my dick and at no point SAID she doesn't want to do this. He was pushing her, he was being an asshole and I think that is obvious to anyone who read this story. But if you revoke your consent, you should probably say so to the other involved party in that moment, not print it in the papers months later or whatever.

Which part of her story am I spinning to fit ‘my narrative’? The part where she doesn’t want to fuck him from the beginning or the part where she doesn’t want to fuck at the end? The whole story is spun to say “I didn’t want to fuck”. So I think it’s pretty clear that my interpretation is her narrative. You are excusing his behavior as a “bad date” which is disgusting.

[Sarah K]

The fact that people can view this as a bad date is a horrifyingly accurate example of our collective failure to teach about consent when folks are young. Then they transform into adults who think this behavior is acceptable, and the cycle never breaks.

Like, I don't even understand how or why anyone continues when it is clear that the other person is not into it. If someone is not enthusiastic about sex, then where is the fun?

Coerced consent is not consent.

[playwithfire]

It's kinda amazing that Aziz, the person who actually was described as doing these things, has shown more ownership and maturity about this than the "um but he was just an asshole" idiocy exhibited here.

And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

If their seduction technique involves wearing down a barely enthusiastic partner until they give up, they don't deserve to get laid. Genuine question: Do you really not feel empathy for how shitty that experience must have been for her?

[telee.kom]

Do you really not feel empathy for how shitty that experience must have been for her?

I do. I also believe what she should have done is to leave, not going in bed with him, not proceed to have sex with him. And she didn't. Or do you think that what she has done was the right course of action? I know that the mindset here is everything women do is sacred, everything men do is evil and more power to you if this is how you feel, but wouldn't it be better for everyone, if the takeaway from this would be "girls, don't be afraid to say no" instead of "girls, go on dates with celebrities and make a story about the experience later"? I think "metoo" is rather important thing, but stories like this being a part of it is what make it less credible. It started with accounts of genuine sexual abuse and now we are at point of bedroom stories with celebrities.