Likes: 
Faceplams: I am not sure what country you live in where women are sitting on top of the patriarchy (lol), that rape cases reported actually get taken care of by law enforcement, and that everyone has equal rights, but that is not the case most places on earth.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
I am not sure what country you live in where women are sitting on top of the patriarchy (lol), that rape cases reported actually get taken care of by law enforcement, and that everyone has equal rights, but that is not the case most places on earth.
Administrator
Oh fuck off. I’ve experience a range of harassment and assault in my lifetime and all were committed by men.Originally Posted by poro765
Have you been raped or assaulted? No? How about you listen? learn. absorb.
Trollhunter
You should probably just say, “I’m a Tool fan, yes one of THOSE Tool fans, and as such, I don’t want to believe this. I also have serious issues with recognizing gender inequality and the struggles associated with coming forward as a victim of sexual misconduct, assault and/or rape. I read a lot of Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson stuff.”
And then not say anything else.
(Unused symbol)
For one, disabuse yourself of the notion that this isn't a societal problem (should read male / patriarchal problem).
Throbbing Member
Men, and toxic masculinity ARE to blame - - for rape culture, and the patriarchy that’s been unchecked for far too long. It’s worked in men’s favor, so change is slow, and justice for the people it’s affected negatively is little to none, honestly. The number one way a pregnant women dies in this country is at the hands of domestic violence to their male partners, or suicide that’s often
linked to abuse. You talk about things being equal now in the 21st century? How’s that come to you with huge wage and disparity gaps for women (especially women of color) and the fact the US has only turned down the ERA time and time again. The way you’re going about this so defensively and all ”not all men” style only worsens things tbh. You should work on challenging the men in your own life, and calling them out. Not going around forums telling everyone how they are wrong bc women are capable of assault as well. Women are not the problem.
Throbbing Member
This is the last comment I'll leave here. It's clearly not worth my time.
You have a serious problem if you read it that way.
I see a family with woman taking charge of the family. Working, earning money. Man taking care of the babies and doing housework.
You don't believe men and women have equal rights? Why don't you start a fucking revolution? Start with me. Tell me exactly one right that men have but women don't.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
But I don't have to shut up, listen, learn and absorb because I haven't been raped or assaulted.
And why aren't you listening to me? I listened. I read what you gave me.
You can't tell me to listen if you're not willing to listen too.
OH yes. I'm a Tool fan. Sadly for you, I'm not one of THOSE Tool fans. I don't idolize Maynard.
"My biggest concern was to get laid. My priority was to be validated, to be desired. This was my ticket to undo all of the dismissive behavior from family and teachers and the army of people that had ignored my potential. It was my chance to have somebody who I didn't even know and who didn't even know me give me everything in a moment, without question. Just surrender. I'd never had that. That power was new."
This is from his own biography.
And I don't read a lot of Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson stuff.
From where I'm sitting, you're the one who have problem with gender issues. By making what is not a gender issue into a gender issue.
I'm out of this mess. You guys should listen to yourselves, blaming men, me for what they, I haven't done.
While this anger and hatred should be spent somewhere else. Like, towards the people who actually committed a crime.
Trollhunter
“I know you are but what am I? I created this mess which I’m now blaming on everyone else and I’m out.”
See how you can say more with less? Granted, there’s very little substance no matter which way.
Administrator
So the discussion of ending rape culture isn't worth your time? YES please see your way out. Good riddance. Some of us feel very strongly about it. I guess you don't.
You don't know what you're talking about. You just stated you don't have personal experience with this topic. So what exactly should i be taking from your replies? I'm still not sure what your point is other than "not all men".
If you actually read the links I provided for you, you wouldn't still be trying to counter argue. Seriously, i hope you spend some time reflecting on this.
Right here.
"blaming men, me for what they, I haven't done."
You made it about you. OF COURSE!
Bye!
Active Member
me every day, same as heck
I remember when the Conor Oberst thing happened, how I was horrified and was like "guess he's canceled" (which, to be clear, is a reaction I absolutely stand by, and then how the accuser retracted their statements and all that shit.I think that's misrepresenting the heart of what those people actually mean, at least the ones who are criticizing the use of an anonymous Twitter account for this sort of thing. I think it's less that they're criticizing a rape victim's actions in opening up about their experience and more about the idea that a person's career can be seriously damaged by something with 0 possible chance at verification. They're not coming at it from a "she's lying" angle, they're coming at it from a "this could just as likely be some scorned weirdo who Maynard didn't wave at on the street once."
It's rare, but it does happen.
I agree with this. I think your best bet is generally to get a reputable journalist on your side, but like, choosing anonymity is infinitely relatable.I understand the reasons why somebody might not want to come forward publicly especially when it involves somebody in the form of art that is known to have some pretty passionate fans. I haven't really heard a decent alternative to pure anonymity, other than maybe the idea mentioned earlier about contacting a journalist to help with at least attempting to verify the information.
So, I fully agree that like... vicious mob mentality "someone did something bad, let's accidentally dox someone with the same name and destroy them" is dangerous and bad. However, I would say that like, Maynard clearly having been a gross creep regardless of this incident is pretty self-evident? And that a man being so hyped up on his own power that he pushes too far is infinitely believable? I believe the accusation. It is believable. I also try to listen to survivors because in most cases, unless the person has some serious issues, there is nothing to benefit them coming forward. Yes, anonymity can be a shield for the millions of downsides of coming forward. I'm also waiting to see how he responds.But really, I don't think the 'anonymous Twitter' thing is the actual problem here. It's a symptom of the bigger issue of society at large being ready at the drop of a hat to completely destroy somebody based on something like an anonymous accusation. I know this is a frequent talking point of people who really mean "I don't believe this story" when they say it, but sometimes it just means what it says. Anybody should be able to express themselves however they want, but people also need to be rational and measured in their response. The people who have already burned their records are just as unreasonable as the ones who are already declaring Maynard's innocence or blowing off the woman.
I agree with you.It's hard to take almost any position other than an immediate, hardline dismissal of anything the accused has ever done because otherwise you'll be lumped in with the "she's lying" crowd and treated like a piece of shit. This topic is pretty unique in that regard. There aren't many other subjects of conversation in Western culture that draws such intense degrees of anger towards anyone who doesn't tow the line exactly.
But I don't say these sorts of things too often because I know it's one of the identifiers of the people who actually do things like blame the victim, harrass them, blow them off, or make excuses for why a situation isn't rape. I think a lot of people might come across as way bigger shitbags than they are due to a mix of poorly explaining their position, a lack of thorough/nuanced understanding of the different angles of the topic (go ask 100 people on the street what "enthusiastic consent" is), and like I mentioned before, being pushed into a fucked up radical position in response to being absolutely pummeled online for saying the wrong thing. That shit absolutely radicalizes people.
Well, the JW thing had a second witness, for one. But, I agree with this as well. I typically respond to stuff based on the level of victim-blaming/sea-lioning/being weird about consent works that I see, and I don't think you're doing that shit. But like, people are incredibly sensitized with this.And I'm not the "this is why Trump won" because fuck people who voted for Donald Trump, that's not something that happens due to a small misunderstanding or anything that could possibly come from a place of well meaning. I don't think all opinions should be treated with respect or not shamed, I just notice that this topic in particular is incendiery to the max with very little in the way of proportional response. In most other areas, saying something people think is slightly wrong might warrant a correction, or a discussion, or maybe some gentle ribbing. But on this topic it's usually 0-100 instantly. It's not difficult to see how this dynamic can instantly alienate anybody who thinks 'incorrectly.'
And for a bit more reference, when the Jeordie White thing broke I was pretty overwhelmingly shut down by folks on other boards because I was apparently being some crazy extremist SJW by saying what amounts to "All of the evidence points towards it probably being true." So it's strange that right now, without much change in opinion on the topic, I'm being shit on as somebody for not really feeling much different about the events than the people doing the shitting.
Cheers! I did feel like some of what you were saying was being dismissed and that I thought you had good intentions.It's fascinating how everything here are all points I was making and yet this post is receiving a much different response than any of mine. Also thank you for being one of the few people to read my post and respond to what I actually said in an accurate way without going off on a tear against a strawman.
I definitely used the word forcible intentionally.[edit: heh apparently I never actually did, BUT I TOTALLY WOULD HAVE so my point stands] A really common response for people during like, rapes that lead to a conviction (though most rapes never do because, like, the world) is that they freeze up. I'd suggest you remove the word "keep" and replace it with "put" and yes, it literally did require physical force (undressing her as she was frozen, putting her in missionary, having sex with her while she did nothing) to have sex with her. Here's that study I mentioned somewhere earlier: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...n_6445510.htmlI agree with all of this as well - except the word 'forcible.' Like you explained above, it's more than possible that he didn't realize she didn't consent, whatever the reason (he's dumb, he's inattentive, he had a different understanding of sex than a normal person, or the silence =\= thing not being at all a common social understanding.) I don't think it's honest to classify that as forcible because that word implies using physical force to keep somebody in that position. That has to be classified differently than something like a rape that took place due to a lack of express consent or misunderstanding social cues or anything like that. When these things hold such enormous, immense weight the words we use are so very important.
Last edited by playwithfire; 06-27-2018 at 09:41 AM.
Administrator
Those of you coming up with defenses around "but did he realize it was rape and if he didn't then was it really rape" and blaming potential victims are really telling on yourselves right now. This isn't difficult to understand. Get out of your feelings around Tool and APC and try and look at this thing objectively. I know I have been because this is a hard one for me to swallow.
Jesus.
Active Member
Really...making fun of a rapist's useless dick is more offensive than the actual notion of somebody being a rapist? Really??
And you just contradicted yourself again, moron. Sex is sexual. Duh. Most women also desire sex (some women - and some men - just don't like sex - hence "most"). Women fancy a good fuck - when they consent to it. The difference between sex and rape, and I cannot believe that in 2018 I have to spell this out for someone - is that most guys who are being screwed by a woman are doing so willingly - where as many women being screwed by a guy...not so willingly. You're literally proving your own point wrong. Both sexes like to get it on, but it's MEN who are FAR, FAR more likely to force themselves onto an unwilling woman than vice-versa. So yes, once again, making rape largely a male-perpetrated problem is 100% accurate. But it does not mean than ALL men do it, so unless you're a rapist, you have no reason to feel personally attacked at all of these accusations. And if you are a rapist, please rape a running blender.
Not sure why I'm writing this, since you've already run off crying to your 4chan incel support group. But if you do accidentally stumble back in, please...get help. Listen to the adults in the room. Listen to the victims. Listen to common sense.
Active Member
Just to be clear: I'm saying that it is possible he didn't think it was rape, because lots of rapists don't think it's rape, and it's still really rape.
Throbbing Member
If most men commits rape, domestic violence and induce suicide, you can blame men all you want.
Most you can say is - most of the rapists, and convicts are men. Huge difference.
You can look into the reasons why the majority of them are men.
You will find lack of education, lack of attention given when growing up, lack of social care. Not a Y chromosome in his DNA.
All I've said, and all I'll ever say is men and women should stand together against this problem called rape, domestic violence and whatever problem that stands in front of us.
What you're doing here is making men and women fight with each other, while the problem persists.
And you still don't see it. That's why I'm leaving here. There's no constructive discussion.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
If everyone surrounding you is pointing out how absolutely ridiculous your stance on a topic is, perhaps that is not an indication of their intelligence levels. Maybe that is an indication that you need to do some reflection and evaluation on why you still have those beliefs.
Last edited by Sarah K; 06-27-2018 at 10:07 AM.
Active Member
Do you not agree that men and women are socialized differently? Of course it's not a chromosome thing. It's a developmental and societal thing.
i'm too thin
Wow, you're right. I was honestly adding here and there to that post while doing a million other things so I somehow got some things conflated in my head and sidetracked myself one sentence into my own paragraph. So that's my mistake for being a dumbass.
But I did mean to make more or less the same general point about the word 'active' however, and I think it's probably more understandable in that context as well. Basically it really seems like a problem to describe something as an 'active' rape when there is a reasonable possibility that the perpetrator wasn't knowingly doing it. Which just goes back to my points about how there are acts of physical violence that are (arguably objectively) more harmful physically and mentally than others.
Other than that there's no real argument from me. I don't think somebody being frozen means they're fair game.
I just think that topics such as this have been discussed by one or two people before so we'd maybe do well as a society to at least put forth an attempt to remain even keeled while we work through this, instead of just throwing out humanity's history of nuanced conceptual thought in favor of immediate, explosive, unflinching passion.
^^^
Administrator
Poor you. You told me how I should feel about my experience and I told you to fuck off. Yes, you’re the victim here. Massive fucking eye roll. Keep responding and falling into every damn stereotype.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Active Member
Why don't you do what you're saying yourself here, I'm a male sexual assault victim. It's hard to talk about, but I know that I'm in the minority of men, where a woman who's been assaulted is in the majority of women.
When a woman says she was raped and doesn't know how to talk about it, I completely understand. It takes a lot of strength to talk about it, especially when we live in a world where women are treated as sexual objects instead of people, and where they're not believed when they say they were assaulted.
As a male who is has also been a victim of sexual assault, trust me when I say that defending men is not what's necessary to fix this problem.
The problem is that our society is built to allow powerful people to take what they want from their victims, and that our system allows that to happen with no punishment for the perpetrator. Our culture is also set up to put men into those powerful positions and women into the powerless position in extremely disproportionate ways. Look at how many female victims have come forward compared to how many male victims have come forward. Men do not need to be defended.
I know it's more difficult to believe someone who accuses someone who makes art that we like, but we need to. The story sounds very plausible. I believe it.
Take your own advice, listen to me, men do not need to be defended.
Flaccid Member
Most Tool fans think they’re the smartest person in the Auto Zone at any point in time. So it makes sense they would act this way.
Active Member
That is scary.
Also, there is a part of me that thinks Maynard is not going to comment on it at all. Like Chris Hardwick hasn't yet, right? I could be wrong - I haven't been following it closely.
Administrator
Chris Hardwick denied it, then leaked his text messages to TMZ and had his mother-in-law, PATTY FUCKING HEARST go out and defend him. Then his wife, Lydia Hearst, defended him on Instagram and people like James Gunn, Joe Randazzo, and other blue checks liked and commented on it.
Men are trash.
Active Member
That's part of what I'm trying to get at though, right? Separating impact from intent. Him maybe (and like, there is also a very real possibility that he was fully intending to carry out rape, by exactly that word) thinking he was just pushing sex on this chick who'd obviously come back to watch a movie in his bed doesn't lessen what he did. It just shows us that we have normalized rape, and allowed it to be perceived by the people who carry it out as other. But, it's not "other," it's rape. His intent doesn't change her experience. It carries no harm reduction.
I mean, we've by and large always been better at the passion thing, right? I think this of all subjects can be particularly frustrating and painful for folks.I just think that topics such as this have been discussed by one or two people before so we'd maybe do well as a society to at least put forth an attempt to remain even keeled while we work through this, instead of just throwing out humanity's history of nuanced conceptual thought in favor of immediate, explosive, unflinching passion.
(Unused symbol)
What will be more interesting is what his bandmates do / say. Do they stay quiet? Do they distance themselves? But I don't expect anything until this story is picked up and investigated by a reputable journalist...an investigation, I suspect, has already begun.
Active Member
Ok, thanks for that update.
Throbbing Member
I'm a feminist, I've been to rallies, I think that rape is a heinous crime and one of the absolute worst things a human being can do to another. I have friends and family members who have been raped, molested and assaulted. Every woman I have ever been friends with has been harassed by a man at some point in their lives. There is a problem not just in America, but worldwide with sexism against women being accepted in society. I want everyone to know that's where I stand before I get to this next part.
When I was in high school, a friend of mine was accused of rape. He was put in an alternative school, and went to jail. The accuser then gloated, telling her friends that she made it up. As far as I know, that kid is still a sex offender. In 2016, Conor Oberst was accused. He cancelled his tour, went into a depression, and was hospitalized for stress. His accuser was confronted with inconsistencies in her story, such as his band not having toured the year of, or the years around when she had said he had raped her. She eventually admitted it didn't happen, after changing her story upwards of four times didn't work.
I think that the when waiting to see what happens, to take evidence into account is met with name calling, and when people constantly making blanket statements like "men are trash" when these things get brought up, it really hurts a movement that I am a part of. When my conservative father talks shit about liberals to me, that's the evidence he points to. It doesn't matter how many people I've met who are kind, and don't fall into that camp, because all he ever sees online are people hating men, foaming at the mouth ready to attack any man at any time with no evidence given. It keeps people like him from being brought to our side.
It is possible for an accusation to be untrue, it's happened before. Women are no less human than men, and have the capacity to be bad, and to lie, and to hurt others. I don't think there is anything wrong with waiting to see what happens before you condemn someone. That said, if this is true, I hope there are repercussions for Maynard, and anyone who helped or allowed this to happen. I hope that it is untrue, but just as I am not immediately condemning him, I'm not going to defend him either. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's rational, and I don't think that it makes me any less of a feminist to do so.
I hope no one thinks I'm male trash for feeling this way.
Banned
Can you imagine the fucking meltdown ETS would have if Trent ever got accused of wrongdoings. Lets just hope none of those groupies and strippers Trent was plowing through on The Downward Spiral tour dont ever come forward with accusations.....
Stubby Member
I think Louis CK (not the best guy to call on here for wisdom, but hear me out) said it well in his bit about how sexism isn't going anywhere. It's too incendiary a topic to make true widespread progress very, very slowly. It's all "one of a million awful things happen by the hand of a man, because of a system that benefits men created by men", then a woman (understandably so) is like "man, fuck men" and then some dude gets all offended and defensive like "wait, I'm a man, what did I do?" and then it turns into cringy "not all men" stuff and then a woman and other men call out the stupidity of that and it just goes nowhere.
@poro765 : dial it back a bit, when it feels like everyone is ganging up on you, sometimes it may be mob rule, but usually the answer lies within. Really think about it. You seem, from what you're saying, to have good intentions. I think you've stuck your foot in your mouth and said some ignorant things, but we've all done that at some point or another. You need to understand that many women have been getting killed, raped, beaten, abducted, and harassed by many men for centuries, and those men have rarely seen consequences. This is because of a society that's set up in such a way that promotes this sort of thing. So when women are angry about that, and perhaps say something mean about "men" in a discussion about a rape accusation, don't take it so damn personally. It may be a negative generalization, but as a member of the sex that can freely abuse the other with reduced consequences, you're not in a position to be offended by it. Just roll with it.
Getting all defensive of all the poor innocent men being disparaged by the mean feminist just makes you like a chode. Yeah, there are plenty of non-abusive, non-rapist men, EVERYBODY knows that. It's understood. You don't have to die on such a stupid hill. You're hanging yourself in a web of semantics, just ignore them and focus on what I hope we're all in agreement on, which is that rape is awful, people (who are almost always men) who do it are awful, and it needs to be stopped. And then work through the "how" from there.
Throbbing Member
Honestly? I don’t really care if men are upset about being grouped into something like this. Men have been enjoying the benefits of being a fucking man for so long that they can’t handle a little bit of man-bashing. Women are constantly grouped together and called crazy, dramatic, irrational, psycho, materialistic, etc but when men are called trash they are suddenly very upset about being generalized. Fuck that.
Alt-Left Leaning Cunt
The #NOTALLMEN narrative is tired as hell. Sure. Not all men, but enough of them that it is a problem that mainly lies on their shoulders to educate each other and fix it.
For a parallel, when we have discussions about racism and the role that white people play in that, I don't get angry and shout NOT ALL WHITES. Because I know that it is a problem that predominantly carried out by white folks, and pretending that it isn't just does further damage.
Last edited by Sarah K; 06-27-2018 at 12:03 PM.
Stubby Member
I absolutely understand this perspective, and I'm in agreement that I don't feel sympathetic towards dudes who can't take a tiny sliver of the shit that's been dished towards everybody else for millenia. Where I have difficulty is, I'm not sure where passionate and righteous anger, however justified, gets us. And this isn't directed towards anyone in this thread, we're all just random people with no obligation to fix the world's problems, so if you're pissed off and want to talk some shit about the shit heads responsible, I'm in no position to tell anyone how to feel.
I just tend to fall more in the hippie camp where love shows us the way or whatever. If somebody has good intentions but a wildly misguided mindset, I think "how can this be fixed, how can this person be appealed to and see where this belief they have is wrong". Cognitive dissonance is a strong thing and while many people have lost their way to the point that they can't be saved, I still feel in most cases it's worth it to try. Yes, it feels better to yell at them and insult them and get all the frustration they cause you out of your system (I've definitely done so many many times, and still do), I think it's a more powerful and effective gesture to say "hey, we're both humans who think we're doing the right thing, please hear me out because I think you're missing information and I feel strongly about having you on my side". Willfully ignorant people may not deserve that gesture, but that's what makes makes it potentially rehabilitative--it can be touching to be shown kindness by someone who has every reason to hate you.
I apologize for the tangent, it's really not terribly relevant here; this is an internet message board, mental masturbation is basically the entire point, Gandhi could be posting in this thread and it wouldn't really do any good. It's just something that's been on my mind a lot lately, what with the political climate and all the terrible terrible things going on.
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