Star Wars: The Movies (Spoilers)

[Volband]

I'd encourage everyone queuing up their Abrams vs. Johnson hot takes to read this liveblog of the panel, and especially focus on the quote below - https://io9.gizmodo.com/io9s-star-wa...-he-1833998744



Yeah, that sounds like someone who has to fix things. /sarcasim

Remember a few facts - Colin Trevorrow was the director of this movie until he wasn't because he couldn't wrap his head around the plot and story. Abrams was not brought back to retcon anything Rian Johnson did; he was brought back in because they needed someone familiar with the overall plot and because Rian Johnson was and is still developing other Star Wars stories. Period. The end.

What did you expect one professional director to say about another professional director? "I'm sad he fucked up everything, and I hope I never have to clean up after him ever again"? That is not how Hollywood works.

You have to have some cognitive dissonance to believe that sweet talk, when Kylo LITERALLY welds his mask back together which Rian symbolically shattered. He also brought back Luke, whom Rian clearly sent off.

Everyone and their mother knows JJ is here to fix things, and he very clearly tried just by the looks of this teaser. Don't embarass yourself by trying to pretend you don't see these things.

edit: it's also nice of him to give a little boost to Kelly. Appreciate of him being nice, nothing more.

[Wretchedest]

"Let the past die, kill if you have to."

"We brought back that Lightsaber everyone loves... And the EMPEROR"

Why not bring back Han Solo and Darth Vader too? Padme? Jar Jar?

[ltrandazzo]

Kylo LITERALLY welds his mask back together which Rian symbolically shattered. He also brought back Luke, whom Rian clearly sent off..

Kylo wore the mask and removed it in front of both Rey and his father in TFA to show his humanity. Instead, the monster inside of him took over and he ended up resembling that darkness when Rey sliced his face. in TLJ, he tried to hide his monster by putting the mask on until Snoke ridiculed him for it. After being questioned by Snoke, he destroyed the visage of that monster and decided to show his true face. After killing Snoke, he wanted to rebuild the First Order with Rey at his side, but she rebuked him and fled. He then confronted another mentor of his who confirmed that he was truly lost after claiming the title of Supreme Leader. In TROS, Kylo has seized his destiny and knows that he has always been and always will be that monster and that he will now embrace it. Rather than get a new mask, he rebuilds the old one because it reflects what he truly has become and has always been.

That's not a retcon, it's storytelling. Disney also needs to sell new Kylo Ren masks.

There's nothing there between the two of them but mutual respect. Read into whatever drama you want to build for them - I just want to see the next fucking Star Wars movie because these last two have been great.

[elevenism]

I have goosebumps.

Me too.
I'm really excited.
And I have no problem with nostalgia. In fact, I REALLY want it.

[marodi]

So, Leia's theme..., interesting.

"The Rise of Skywalker", intriguing.

Rey is a badass: awesome.

Yeah, the nostalgia is there. This trailer may be enough to drag my blasé old ass in a theater seat.

[Volband]

em but mutual respect. Read into whatever drama you want to build for them - I just want to see the next fucking Star Wars movie because these last two have been great.

Whoever said they have any animosity between them? It was never Abrams who was dissatisfied with Rian's product, but Disney. Hence why they brought him back. I don't think JJ cares at all, since he was hired to do a job, and he did just that. If the next guy fucks up, it's really none of his problems, he already got paid. Hell, now he even got paid more, because without Rian, he wouldn't have returned to begin with.

[Wretchedest]

While I mostly agree with where your are coming from by all accounts the director change in this movie is at least mostly Colin Trevorrows fault. I don't recall if the decision to hire Abrams came before or after TLJ had caused the fanboy outrage.

Here's hoping it pans out differently than it looks. The last one very certainly did which was one of the exciting things about it. I really can't come up with a way other than like a force ghost that I like them bringing back Palpatine. I think the third movies on trilogies often make the mistake of escalating the character count and throwing in a new villain and that can be a pretty big strain. It also really cheapens the ending of the original trilogy.

To sum up my current issues with the... Louder... Part of the fan base and with Abrams... All you need to know is that there's quite rampant speculation that the black woman cast in this film is widely speculated mostly based on whether or not she is the descendant of the only black man from the original trilogy. That intersection of speculation and family connection has underlined much of the "theory conversation" of the whole trilogy, with much of the base hoping to be surprised by the same twist like a dozen fucking times or something... Even though it's happened only twice in this series

[ltrandazzo]

While I mostly agree with where your are coming from by all accounts the director change in this movie is at least mostly Colin Trevorrows fault. I don't recall if the decision to hire Abrams came before or after TLJ had caused the fanboy outrage.

It was before TLJ came out - https://variety.com/2017/film/news/c...ix-1202548088/

[ltrandazzo]

ANYWAY, what do we think the title means? Redemption for Ben Solo? New force wielders referred to as Skywalkers? BOTH?

[Dr Channard]

We need someone to save starwars!….







Palpatine was the chosen one all along.

[Wretchedest]

Worst case Scenario is that it refers to Rey. Best case it refers to Kylo. This film can still succeed if they respect the last films revelation about Rey's parentage. Anything else undermines a very thoughtful poi t Rian Johnson made.

I've always thought that Kylo Ren was the most interesting character of this star wars, and there's a great opportu ity for him to complete an arc here. These films can really be his trilogy

I heard someone float that it could refer to an academy or something

[Dr Channard]

ANYWAY, what do we think the title means? Redemption for Ben Solo? New force wielders referred to as Skywalkers? BOTH?

If it were about Ben it’d more likely be called “The Rise of Solo,” and Rey isn’t a Skywalker. That leaves Anakin or Luke or even a very improbable chance of Leia. My guess, with how pissed people had been with the portrayal of Luke in the last few films, in order to right the ship with the fandom, maybe he will have a more key role in this one... somehow.

[Bachy]

ANYWAY, what do we think the title means?

An extra billion dollars in revenue.

[thelastdisciple]

How absolutely cool is it seeing the wreckage from the second death star!?

Also i wonder what Rey is holding in her hand there? Some kind of pack, maybe to blow something up within the wreckage or it's for retrieving some macguffin that everyone's after.

Loved the scene with Leia and Rey.

Rey being a badass and jumping over Kylo's fighter.

LANDO!

[Wretchedest]

Rey vs. TIE fighter and the death star wreckage we're the highlights for me.

I'm sure .... *Eyeroll* palpatine has been living in that wreckage all this time or some bullshit

I really hate that they're bringing the Emperor back, I really never say this but I feel like my childhood joy is being attacked. Like he was thrown into an enormous chasm of an exploding Death Star in an ultra cathartic moment. And bringing him back, and so needlessly, really undermines that catharsis, because JJ couldn't come up with something better. And they've had a great villain this whole time in Kylo Ren, but they keep wanting to have someone bigger around.... In the last movie when he killed his boss.... I saw it as a recognition of this, like no, having an emperor-esque figure actually just distracts from the more important villain...

[SM Rollinger]

Meh.

It will be like the last 4. I'll wait till it come out on Blu Ray, watch it 2 or 3 times, and shelf it.

More boring and uninspired $tar War$

[thelastdisciple]

I'm sure .... *Eyeroll* palpatine has been living in that wreckage all this time or some bullshit

It's possible he's only some sort of spectre at this point and not in the same way as our beloved Force Ghosts, perhaps Kylo is after a tome of his or something that was lost in the destruction and when the heroes approach the wreckage area Palpatine's essence is like corrupting and haunting the place.

Could go down something like this

[october_midnight]

[Volband]

Rey vs. TIE fighter and the death star wreckage we're the highlights for me.

I'm sure .... *Eyeroll* palpatine has been living in that wreckage all this time or some bullshit

I really hate that they're bringing the Emperor back, I really never say this but I feel like my childhood joy is being attacked. Like he was thrown into an enormous chasm of an exploding Death Star in an ultra cathartic moment. And bringing him back, and so needlessly, really undermines that catharsis, because JJ couldn't come up with something better. And they've had a great villain this whole time in Kylo Ren, but they keep wanting to have someone bigger around.... In the last movie when he killed his boss.... I saw it as a recognition of this, like no, having an emperor-esque figure actually just distracts from the more important villain...

Kylo is a great character, but not a good villain. Don't get those mixed up. He would be an ideal character for a book franchise, but three movies - even if they were paced better - are simply not enough to flesh him out. Our very last scene with him still shows him as an angry, confused child. It would give me no satisfaction if the crescendo of this series would be slaying an angry teenager. If anything, I would feel bad for him, and that's not a good sign.

It's going to tarnish our memory of Palpatine for sure, but desperate times need desperate measures. I am not fanboying over his return either, because all I can think of is "but why?", however I understand the necessity of having to come up with something fast. And as much shit as we could give JJ and Rian for not being able to come up with a Big Bad Wolf for us to cheer against, I really think that it is not on them, but on the Disney executives; whether it's just Kennedy or others as well, I wouldn't know. You are a bad businessman and executive producer if you give your writers such free reign and even greenlight this mess, then realize that you have a huge hole in your trilogy with one movie to go. The handling of this trilogy was careless to say the least.

It seems like IX is going to be a fan service extravaganza, and if you don't want to be disappointed, you better calibrate yourself by Christmas, or else you probably won't enjoy it. And frankly, at this point this is the best they could have done.

[Wretchedest]

But they don't have to slay Kylo Ren if he's the last villain. They have to turn him to good. Which would be a huge deal in this franchise where, in each trilogy a friend or family member tries to turn a sith back to good and fails. The perfect ending would be a final success that saves the Skywalker line. Kylo Ren is a great villain because he breaks away from the black and white logic of the series. That you feel bad for him is exactly what makes him an excellent villain, perhaps one of the best written and performed characters in the entire franchise.

With Snoke and now with Palpatine you have the same issue with the third act. You have to give them ample time to sort of explain their larger role (retroactively in these cases, too) right before battling and disposing of them, which is a whiplash turn and steals time from other characters and closures, especially in movie nine. There are enough characters, there is a enough conflict, there has been a lot of climax, we must now come to resolution. In movie nine, when you crowd it like this there isn't proportionate space for resolution (starwars rarely creates substantial resolution, any way I suppose).


Let's imagine for a moment that this is what it looks like, and it might not be of course, and the big bad is once again emperor palpatine, to arc this properly Rey has to turn Kylo in the climax, which is a huge pay off for the reasons I've described. The ultimate payoff. Instead you have to move that to the second act or even the rising action. You have to do all this while resolving arcs for Princess Leia, Finn, Chewbacca, Kelly Tran's character, Poe, and then I troduce and resolve Lando and whoever else might be around. That's a lot of leg work. It's a very busy movie. A lot of trilogies fail at the end for all these reasons, they add new characters, they escalate a villain, they meander and expand at the end when actually the best thing to do is to trim all the fat

That's what Rian Johnson did a lot of. Fat trimming. Because I liked Rian Johnson's ideas, I don't see a need to fix them, rather I get his economic sense of the size and movement of the thing, and see an opportunity to capitalize it.

[Volband]

Kylo has potential to become a great villain, but he had not became one. He hasn't lost his antiques of having childlike outbursts, or even breaking down crying in random situations, so people don't look at him as a menacing evil, but as an unstable child. He's like a mix between Joker and Vader, but it doesn't work until he finds his own identity. Like yeah, am I going to worry for Rey and friends because a guy who asks, practically begs for others' help in both movies are on the loose now? I do care about him, but he can not be taken seriously as a threat. Even Maul was more frightening.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories (Grommash or Illidan in the Warcraft universe for example), but you need someone to step up to in order to be redeemed. You don't imagine Kylo turning to the light side when he sees the utter destruction by the hands of the First Order, right? That has no weight, that is laughable. The best redemption stories always have another villain or threat to disobey, just like the best fall from grace stories always have a friend, teacher, family or nation to betray. Let's say Palpatine is not in the picture. Who would Kylo stand up to? Hux? Do you think people would get all teary eyed if Kylo rebelled against the guy who is his subordinate to begin with?

As an example, I really liked the story of Mass Effect 2, and it is a great example as to why you need a big bad wolf, and why it doesn't really matter for the story how original it is. For those that don't know, the overarching villain of that story were the Reapers, who return every 50000 years to wipe off every living creature. That is not really interesting, is it? But what made the story good was how a bunch of misfits (a'la Dirty Dozen) came together in the face of this threat, and volunteered for a suicide mission. It was a character driven story, but it needed that big, dumb threat, otherwise it would have all fallen apart. This new trilogy doesn't have that Kylo. It kinda still works for Rey and friends, because they are extremely outnumbered and they are still the underdogs, so you can at least cheer for them.

It is clear that they can't resolve everyone's story, but we knew it at the end of TLJ. JJ left 20 unfinished and unpolished threads to continue, while Rian basically closed all of them. We could argue again which was better, but that doesn't change the fact that we had nothing set up to IX, except for the kids being thankful for the Alliance.

And whether someone liked Rian's ideas and execution or not, he should have been at least involved in IX, and he should have been promised this way before he started working on VIII. This absolute shitfest handling of the trilogy by Disney reminds me of Bioware's Anthem. Too bad we are not likely to get juicy gossips from Disney, because they still reap in too much with SW for people to start giving out infos about how amateurishly they handled this.

[allegate]

What did you expect one professional director to say about another professional director? "I'm sad he fucked up everything, and I hope I never have to clean up after him ever again"? That is not how Hollywood works.

You have to have some cognitive dissonance to believe that sweet talk, when Kylo LITERALLY welds his mask back together which Rian symbolically shattered. He also brought back Luke, whom Rian clearly sent off.

Everyone and their mother knows JJ is here to fix things, and he very clearly tried just by the looks of this teaser. Don't embarass yourself by trying to pretend you don't see these things.

edit: it's also nice of him to give a little boost to Kelly. Appreciate of him being nice, nothing more.

You bring up cognitive dissonance while participating in it, nice. We all participate in cognitive dissonance in everything, so don't delude yourself in thinking 'your' way is the one true way because you have no more knowledge of the inside situation that I or anyone else on this board does. Whatever they're doing, everyone else is applying what they want to believe to how things are shaking out. Maybe twenty years from now we'll get a The Late Shift book on this trilogy but until then all we have are official accounts.

[Space Suicide]

I HATE the sub title of the film. It's so trite and on the nose.

I'll be optimistic.

[Deadpool]

Ri Johnson: class act.

[Volband]

You bring up cognitive dissonance while participating in it, nice. We all participate in cognitive dissonance in everything, so don't delude yourself in thinking 'your' way is the one true way because you have no more knowledge of the inside situation that I or anyone else on this board does. Whatever they're doing, everyone else is applying what they want to believe to how things are shaking out. Maybe twenty years from now we'll get a The Late Shift book on this trilogy but until then all we have are official accounts.

True, but I also believe in educated guesses. Frankly, as much as I like to argue (ie. whether TLJ was good or not) I wouldn't want to touch this topic even with a stick, because if someone truly believes after every single information available that Disney did not intend to steer episode IX away from the vision of Rian, than that is like 95% due to some emotional reasons. I mean, Kylo shatters his masks, and Rian is a mad genius for breaking the mold, and daring new waters with the franchise, but when they bring JJ back and he makes Kylo weld it back together, essentially returning to the mold and same old waters, then it's perfectly fine, cuz Disney wants money, and they would be stupid not to do it. This is not how it works, and my personal opinion is that people should have the confidence to admit that Disney ultimately (for reasons we can only assume) decided to backtrack from Rian's vision, and return to the safe zone. This opinion can coexist with rating TLJ and Rian's work highly, and obviously Disney did not hate it, otherwise they wouldn't offered him a different trilogy.

I just don't believe in grasping in straws to somehow prove that *uses jedi mind trick* there was no fixing needed in Disney's eye, especially not in a condescending tone, when it's one dozen a dime PR quote against everything else. Sure, for avid TLJ and Rian fans, fixing can (and it may) sound like a pejorative word, so I can understand the frustration coming from that.

[Swykk]

If anyone has learned anything from this largely dogshit thread, I hope it’s that @Volband knows jack shit about how movies work; specifically big studio projects.

[Volband]

It would be comical to think that understanding big studio projects on a basic level is a big feat. We live in the era of comic book adaptations, endless reboots, and continuation of old franchises. Studying the success of Michael Bay and the Transformers franchise for example doesn't exactly require much brainpower. Big studio projects want to play it safe and they want to make it hugely profitable. Everything else is secondary, and they would sell their own mothers if that would make them $$$.

That doesn't mean that no one in the production team puts their heart into big franchises, like SW, Avengers, Jurassic World, etc., quite the contrary. I think many writers and directors hold these things dearly, and would like to make us happy, engaged, and ultimately produce something of value. But it all has to be within the limitations of the executives. If the standalone Iron Man movies reap in the big bucks, then you are not allowed to kill him off, even if that movie would be the most acclaimed by critics and fans alike in the 21st century.

Rian's vision didn't completely suit the main trilogy, and even if it didn't lose money, the absolute mixed reaction is not a good sign. Disney is not out to make movies which will make you rethink your life, no, they want you to come out satisfied, already impatient for the next installment of the franchise or cinematic universe, which by the way is already around the corner, so your wallet can barely rest. And that is not a bad thing, they are a business after all, and many, many, MANY people love Disney products, so I am not trying to be pretentious that these feelgood movies have no merit.

But once again, when they send you to a different project, and rehire the guy whose trademark is producing (mostly) shallow, but very flashy and feelgood products, then you have to sweat bullets trying to convince others that it's actually because they loved your previous product so much, that they refused to take it to the next level, as it would have been unethical to reap in so much money as they would have with it.
Not to mention that the guy whom they rehired for finishing the project is known for everything but that. The one project where he wasn't just contracted for the beginning is the Star Trek reboot. Yes, a movie where every installment is basically just a brand new episode, with very little continuity. Don't tell me it is coincidence, or some extremely complex stuff we mere mortals can't understand. It's like saying that we don't understand the complexity of loot boxes in video games, and we just make assumptions. It's insulting.

It's quite funny that we even have this argument, when just in the trailer JJ already brought back an old nostalgia wreckage (Star Destroyer in VII, Deathstar in IX), Kylo's mask, passed on Luke's saber, dropped the Skywalker name in the title, showed us a throwback shot with Lando and brought back one of the most iconic and beloved characters of the franchise. It is strange how even a 2 minutes long trailer lines up perfectly with everything we assumed about JJ's return.

But tell me this (talking to everybody): if, and I stress, IF the movie ends up being nothing more than an absolute fan-pleaser like episode VII, will you at least willing to say that there may have been something to the very loud, popular and educated opinion which said that Disney brought back JJ to give us exactly that, instead of what Rian did? Or will that be labeled as pure coincidence? Because I can live with that. I am more than happy to risk leaving the cinema, and making a comment here right away saying "guys, I was wrong. This movie was so daring, and so not like what I expected from JJ, that I still can not believe he did this and that, not to mention that one scene which will be a topic of discussion for the next 10 years to come in the SW universe!"

[Haysey_Draws]

Well i'm on board...but then i have enjoyed the new SW's more than the prequels and some of the originals so that wasn't exactly hard, but what does it all mean?

Well Skywalker might be referring to Kylo who gets redemed at the end, or Rey whose origin in TLJ was a red herring (i'm thinking it's most likely this) and She and Kylo end up being related, or Lando's kid ends up being a random love child with Liea given up ANOTHER Jedi, OR CHEWIE WAS LUKE ALL ALONG, OR LUKE ISN'T DEAD OR...i could just shut up.

Whatever the case i's sure it'll wrap up this trilogy nicely enough for most to enjoy...not enough to stop the fanbase trying to tear each other apart mind.

[Volband]

Haha. But to be fair, I'm pretty sure - as with many trailers - that quote and Palpatine's laugh are not connected, and Luke was talking about how no one's ever really gone, because they remain in our hearts and whatnot. Still, at least this is something to have fun with and pass the time till the next teaser.

[ltrandazzo]

What Palpatine Left Behind

This is a great summary of everything Palpatine has been shown doing in the new expanded universe since Disney acquired Star Wars, from Rebels to the comics to Battlefront II. It's obviously way too early to speculate what the Emperor's laugh actually means for TROS (though the implication is heavy since we're likely looking at wreckage of Death Star II at the end of the teaser), but this has been carefully crafted for a while now and likely going to get some payoff in the movie.