Daʿish/ISIS/ISIL

[elevenism]

So a third beheading has been reported today. I'm a pacifist and our previous two wars in the middle east were huge mistakes, but it's time to get these fuckers. I hope we can do it with covert ops and special forces. Apparently we have support from ten middle eastern states this time, including Iran, which ought to be helpful.whatever the case, it's time to shut their shit down.

[aggroculture]

You sound...a bit confused.
Also I find it a bit ironic that a truther such as yourself cannot see that these movements are a response to US and Western imperialism in the region over the course of the years. We created these enemies just like we created Bin Laden.

[elevenism]

You sound...a bit confused.
Also I find it a bit ironic that a truther such as yourself cannot see that these movements are a response to US and Western imperialism in the region over the course of the years. We created these enemies just like we created Bin Laden.

oh, so much to say here.
for one thing, it doesn't take being a truther to see that, yes, we most definitely created these enemies, as far back as when Israel was created.
We have interfered with affairs in the middle east time and time again. I am pro-palestine, and yes, i definitely think it's insane that we ARMED and TRAINED Bin Laden.

And i am generally a pacifist. Furthermore, i believe that 9/11 was used as a pretext for a war with Iraq....it doesn't take a truther to see that either.

ISIS/ISIL is our fault.

It's also crazy that we have played both sides of the internal Islamic conflict, backing both Shia and Sunni whenever it seems to best suit our interests.

There comes a time where diplomacy is not an effective tool, and there are people with whom diplomacy will NEVER work.

I see that we created this threat, absolutely. We laid waste to Iraq, fought on three sides of a civil war, and act surprised when the region becomes unstable.

But for the sake of stability in the middle east, and the world, i say that taking this group on is overdue.

After 9/11, i had hoped that we would strike Al Queda and the Taliban surgically...instead we bombed the shit out of two countries and killed countless innocent people. I pray that this isn't how we approach things now.

I am hoping that Obama's administration will go after this group the same way they went after Bin Laden (if they ever did...i'm a truther, after all )

This group, for some reason, scares me in a way that no other terrorist organization has before.

edit: i just read the news, and it now appears that we have to either choose between Shiite Iran or Sunni Saudi Arabia as our major regional ally here.
Such a shame...i had hoped that working with Iran might produce an uneasy alliance, however fragile, that could contribute to future peace.

[Sutekh]

After 9/11, i had hoped that we would strike Al Queda and the Taliban surgically...instead we bombed the shit out of two countries and killed countless innocent people. I pray that this isn't how we approach things now.

what makes you think it will be any different

[icecream]

Half of ISIS seems to be Vice reporters

[elevenism]

what makes you think it will be any different

i don't. i HOPE it will be though.

i'm a card carrying democrat and would like to think that this administration's response will be more appropriate.
but the cynic in me firmly believes that all of our politicians are in the same gang and have the same ulterior motives.

It's POSSIBLE, however, that Obama will try to avoid Bush's mistakes. Remember that part of his campaign platform was getting us OUT of Iraq.

but notice i said that "i PRAY that this isn't how we approach things now."

[Sutekh]

Sure but being an advocate of intervention seems to show that you have a glimmer of hope it could work out OK? Or do you not think that at all and simply hope

I hate IS but... I hated Saddam, and hate what resulted from our invasion. I just can't remember when intervention worked and given the myriad forces at play (arms manufacturers, oil companies, private security, reconstruction firms) I'm beginning to suspect the hijacking of our foreign policy is a systemic problem large free mark orientated societies such as ours seem to possess. No matter how honourable your intentions, the various voices, lobbies and agendas pulling in different directions means that the good thing won't get done if anyone can make some money out of neglecting it

[elevenism]

@Sutekh , i don't think the last invasion should have happened. i think it was fucking TERRIBLE. and i think that the rise of IS (who have been around since 99, right?) is due to a void that was left from how bad WE fucked up.

I feel like i'm talking to my wife here..she shares your ideas on this situation.

But i do have a glimmer of hope.

What we should do is run small, surgical covert ops and kill or imprison the leadership of this group.
They are a fucking disgrace to Islam and religion in general. I know that another extremist group will rise and take their place, but i feel that we have a duty to at least TRY to shut down IS.

And i hope that we don't do it with "shock and awe" this time. I can't stand it when the us and england bomb the shit out of third world countries, killing innocent people who don't even know why they are being attacked.

And just so you know, the last invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with Saadam, IMO.
The Bush administration bet on the ignorance of the american people...the fact that they would think that an invasion of Iraq would be retribution against "those folks who flew the planes into them there towers."
They won that bet.
We KNEW that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that there were no Iraqis among the 9/11 skyjackers.
We invaded Iraq to gain more control over oil supplies and build permanent american bases in the region.
This might piss a lot of people off, but the us makes me sick sometimes. This country is about MONEY. PERIOD.
If we really were concerned about national security, why didn't we attack North Korea? Why not Iran? Those countries boldly and blatantly have nuclear weapons programs and are constantly threatening us verbally...it never seems to make the news though.
Iraq posed NO threat to us when we invaded. and later, people said "but al queda is in iraq." They weren't fucking there until we invaded and created such a massive instability.


But yes, i think that there's a ghost of a chance that we can improve things in the region. I think that Obama will be quite a bit more reserved going about this.

[fillow]

Not to sound like an ass, but can someone change the tread title or at least expand it? Every time I see it I think of the band.

[elevenism]

I will ask @Leviathant to change it or you can
Change it to whatever you like

[botley]

I don't see why a new thread was necessary. We were talking about the conflict already in the '3rd Iraq War?' thread — although that title was misleading, too, since now we know the combatants are scattered across an entire subcontinent.

Canada has committed troops to the effort, as well; basically, our Prime Minister does things that affect national sovereignty and international issues without asking or consulting anyone anymore. I don't know why people accept 'advisory role' as an acceptable level for military intervention when it still ends up with the Iraqi army (who ALLOWED ISIS TO GET THIS BIG AND POWERFUL ON THEIR WATCH) doing the dirty work.

The conflict between Sunni & Shi'ite extremists is a civil war. We cannot expect to influence its outcome and somehow not drag it out into yet another quagmire. Read this fantastic article for some level-headed context.

[elevenism]

perhaps i'm not the best threadmaker, y'all. @Leviathant , please change the name or merge it or whatever you think we should do with it.

[elevenism]

Well hot damn.

Anyone interested in this shit ought to watch the fantastic FRONTLINE from October 28, entitled "The Rise of ISIS."

If you are interested at all, watch this. I was edge-of-my-seat rivited.

I thought i understood the situation, but i knew nothing. And as AWFUL as ISIS' methods are, i can now understand the appeal of the group to the average Iraqi Sunni.

So this thing all started in the form that we know it now after Pres Malaki accused a senior Sunni member of parliment of treason...he and his bodyguards.
He ordered his arrest and started rounding up Sunnis like Jews in Nazi Germany, arresting them for nothing and holding them for years without even charging them. This was right after the last us troops left iraq.

Malaki had promised to give the Sunni minority a place in the government, but instead he purged them.
It seemed to me that a tipping point was when Iraq's army, which seems to be little more than a Shiite millitia at this point, murdered HUNDREDS of peaceful Sunni protesters. I didn't know about all that.

Also, this group is SERIOUS about creating a state. Their leader gives sermons in Arab cities in broad daylight. They are organized. They are bold. Former members of Saddam's republican guard are their generals.

I learned SO much. I have a much, much deeper level of understanding now.

There are several things worrying me about this situation. For one thing, when a Caliphate is established, many fundamentalist Muslims feel obligated to recognize it. The documentary said that if even 1% of the devout worldwide support the Caliphate, it would mean tens of thousands of supporters.
Also, in that same vein, young, angsty people from literally every country in the world are joining ISIS.
And they are nothing like Al-Queda. They have a plan. They aren't just terrorists...they want to create a fucking state and are on their way to doing so.
They are bad-asses...the hardest of the hardcore. The people who started it were what was left of Al Queda in Iraq...the people we couldn't manage to kill in the last war. Then they freed thousands of prisoners, hardened criminals, who joined their ranks.

They are unlike any group that has come before them.
And yes, we, and Malaki and the Shia created them. They wanted rid of the Sunnis because they feared and mistrusted them, and ISIS is what they got in return...ironic.

Oh, and another thing...we agreed to those airstrikes PRECISELY at the moment that our oil interests were at risk.

ISIS does deserve its own thread. This is bigger than the possibility of a third iraq war, which i predicted over a year ago and no one believed me.

The more we sit by and do nothing...and don't get me wrong, i'm not sure WHAT we should do...the stronger and bigger this threat grows.

I think things will get very, very serious, and that these fuckers will spread into Jordan, into Lebanon, etc.

Europe will be at risk soon.

[Ryan]

This bastard who held a siege here in Sydney yesterday killed two hostages and the police killed
him.


http://m.bbc.com/news/world-australia-30485355


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Haron_Monis

[Sutekh]

I'm willing to bet the attacks in Paris today will be in the name of ISIS.

Some serious soul searching going on in Europe at the moment no doubt... the dismal thing about this is whichever political approach prevails during the coming changes, people are going to die

I think the attacks since we began strikes against ISIS almost legitimise ISIS, they are seriously starting to become a state with international reach... the paper attacked today posted a cartoon of abu bakr al baghdadi/caliph omar (isis leader) last night - so, assuming today is retribution for that (or more generally the NATO member strikes on ISIS), is it now the case that we should endeavour not to provoke ISIS on the international stage - in other words, do we have to seek diplomacy with them? In other words have they forced their way to statehood etc etc

It is a strange thought that they may be here to stay - having a cold war dynamic again.

[scotty79]

They seem to think the attack was well planned and could have been from a previous picture (Mohammed as a teddy bear?) also reports that they know who the 3 suspects are, just a case of trying to find them now, pretty graphic video of a policeman being gunned down doing the rounds as well

[Jinsai]

is it now the case that we should endeavour not to provoke ISIS on the international stage - in other words, do we have to seek diplomacy with them? In other words have they forced their way to statehood etc etc

When we reach the point where ISIS is actually considered a true governing power, they will be nuked.

[Khrz]

I'm willing to bet the attacks in Paris today will be in the name of ISIS.

Nope, they claimed to be Al Qaeda in Yemen, according to witnesses. Which is consistent with our recent military operations in Africa, notably in Mali since this branch of Al Qaeda has called for a jihad against France after that. I doubt the motivation for the attack was all about cartoons to be honest. The operation is highly symbolic on a lot of levels.

[botley]

Is this a catch-all "terrorism by brown dudes" thread now?

[Khrz]

I was merely correcting Sutekh's assumption, ISIS has apparently nothing to do with today's events in France.

[botley]

I know — people come in here to start making associations before all the facts are in. ISIS probably had very little to do with the "seige" in Sydney either.

[Jinsai]

I know — people come in here to start making associations before all the facts are in. ISIS probably had very little to do with the "seige" in Sydney either.

Then consider the thread a general discussion of terrorism perpetrated by Islamic extremists. The way you're putting it almost seems as if to conflate Al Quada with ISIS is in some way racist, which I don't understand. Not all Islamic terrorists are "brown people."

Fuck it. Make the thread about general terrorism related to any form of religious extremism.

[Sutekh]

I know — people come in here to start making associations before all the facts are in. ISIS probably had very little to do with the "seige" in Sydney either.

Yeah, ISIS had nothing to do with the siege in Australia. I was just speculating as to what the motivation might be - I don't think that really warrants such a critical tone, as I disclaimed it as speculation, and as speculation goes it's not that wild.

I also have to protest the implication that I'm lumping all "brown dude" terrorism in the same category - France is currently helping the fight against ISIS & in speeches Abu Bakr has called for people who can't travel to fight in Syria or Iraq to do whatever they can wherever they can, and to carry out attacks swiftly after any strikes are made against ISIS - or any perceived slights against ISIS or Muslims in the media. The night before the shooting, Charlie Hebdo tweeted a caricature of Abu Bakr. France has a large community of Sunni muslims & many have left to fight already. I made the association with ISIS because there's a solid few things to suggest there might be a connection, not because I see terrorism as one monolithic racially characterised bloc

When we reach the point where ISIS is actually considered a true governing power, they will be nuked.

It's scary how far along they are. They've held onto some areas for so long now that they have ISIS branded police, tv stations, printing presses etc. Apparently amenities and infrastructure are breaking down though, there are terrible food shortages and people are starting to resent the well fed, well paid soldiers. Also there are lots of reports of ISIS police torturing minor offenders. Foreign fighters torturing civilians in a newly acquired territory sounds like the perfect way to breed an insurgency against yourself.

[botley]

@Sutekh , I wasn't trying to be critical of your response — clearly you have a better-informed perspective on what's happening in the region than anyone else responding. It's just a shame that the thread inevitably drifts from discussion of a conflict (involving a specific group of well-organized, resources-rich, fundamentalist actors) over to acts of any group claiming allegience to Islam.

And yes, @Jinsai the reason for that is this discussion is racially charged. If we're all coming in here to talk about any heinous act of religious extremist terrorism, how come nobody said peep about the Taliban attacking a school in Pakistan less than a month ago? Maybe it's because none of the 130 kids who died were white people.

[Jinsai]

And yes, @Jinsai the reason for that is this discussion is racially charged. If we're all coming in here to talk about any heinous act of religious extremist terrorism, how come nobody said peep about the Taliban attacking a school in Pakistan less than a month ago? Maybe it's because none of the 130 kids who died were white people.

Perhaps not on this website, but then again, you have to admit the news section of this board is really a bit random when it comes to covering things. Everyone was covering the school massacre in Pakistan. Just because it didn't generate a conversation here doesn't mean it wasn't discussed. To imply that racism is a factor behind why we aren't discussing murder on this board is insane. After all, you were here. Why didn't you bring it up? Did it have something to do with racism?

[Deepvoid]

France is reporting that the suspects trained with Al-Qaeda.

Not ISIS related it appears.

[botley]

Christ no @Jinsai , if I had felt like there was an insightful discussion to be had about the Peshawar attack, I'd have started a new thread. I'm rejecting your suggestion that I should consider this thread a general discussion about religious extremists who commit acts of terrorism. It's not. We don't have a single discussion thread, nor should we: it would be ridiculously broad, because there are many disparate terror groups and terrorists with different targets worldwide that fit the description, most of them irrelevant to each other.

The common denominator in all the attacks discussed in this thread is they are perceived to be linked to ISIS, whether that turns out to be true or not. I'd like to try and keep it that way. There are other recent attacks like the one in Paris this week that are important enough to warrant their own thread and shouldn't be lumped together, as that only promotes a false narrative of Us vs Them.

[Jinsai]

It's not a discussion where it's "us versus them." That's a strange distraction, similar to the insinuation that lumping together or mistaking terrorist groups with similar ideals for one another is in some way racist.

[elevenism]

And yes, @Jinsai the reason for that is this discussion is racially charged. If we're all coming in here to talk about any heinous act of religious extremist terrorism, how come nobody said peep about the Taliban attacking a school in Pakistan less than a month ago? Maybe it's because none of the 130 kids who died were white people.

Wait a minute.
I started this thread and it was NEVER intended to be racially charged.
The reason no one mentioned the Pakistani Taliban attack here, i would assume, is because it was perpetrated by the PAKISTANI TALIBAN...right?
I started this thread because IS appears to be a new kind of group altogether...organized, diverse, HIGHLY militarized, seeking statehood, declaring a caliphate...and i've yet to see such a group in my lifetime.

The assumption that the paris attack may have been IS related WAS a fair one, and not just because it was perpetrated by islamic extremists, and ESPECIALLY not because it was perpetrated by brown people.

I don't think anyone in this thread is coming from a racist angle.

I'm damn sure not. And i certainly don't blame the religion either.

I'd imagine that far more atrocities have been committed in the name of christianity than islam.

[elevenism]

(wipes sweat off of forehead...)

i was afraid you were going to be mad at me, @botley .