Europe lurches to the Right

[Exocet]

corbyn didnt pull his weight but the ball was already rolling in the brexit direction due to labour's abandonement of the working classes and their concerns.

milliband lost scotland and lost the north east, the effete wealthy son of a full on marxist philosopher was a bigger factor than a guy who's been leader for about a year and already managed to hustle up half a million new supporters

new labour/blairites do NOT have a strategy other than muddle along into oblivion as they have been doing since Blair left. Corbyn has the ability to drum up support and crucially has always been critical of the eu - exactly like the voters who have deserted labour

they think someone like owen smith can win back the brexiting working class? a guy who basically insults both their judgement and their voice by calling for a second referendum?

I am frankly horrified at the fact brexit has happened but it is time to stop compromising and being a bunch of pussies about this, politics is heading towards the radical and populist, and corbyn is the only one who ticks the boxes.

he is not perfect but neither is he standing in anyone's way, until the plp/progress/middle class hand wringing tosspots can produce a leadership candidate who actually stands a chance, it is time to shut up, get behind the leader and mount an opposition to the sociopathic ideologists in the cabinet!

I bet you 1 Trillion he will not win the 2020 election, i dont dislike him, i just dont think he is the right person to at the moment to lead the opposition.
He may change things, but he wont ever be elected.
Saying things like he would not shoot to kill Isis terrorists...shit like that...its not going to go down well.
I think he is distancing himself from the working class more than anything, 500.000 new labour members means jack shit, you need 12 Million votes to win an election.

I dont even see him being a Bernie Sanders type catalyst, Democratic socialism is new to America...we have heard this shit before from Michael Foot in the 1983 election look how that went.
I look at Jeremy Corbyn i just see Britain in 1976 or 1977 just the worst years.....

[aggroculture]

A little tired of these Blairites still attacking Corbyn when he's just won the leadership again with a landslide.
Deselect yourselves and go form a Neoliberal party or something.

[Vertigo]

I can't believe how many people still believe in him after barely showing up for the Brexit campaign. Two-faced twat.

[aggroculture]

The Brexit campaign was not his fight to win or lose.
But yeah, maybe Labour should have simply said: this referendum is nothing to do with us, we're not going to be a part of it one way or the other. It was stupid Cameron's battle, no reason at all why Corbyn should have to take the fall for it, whether he campaigned half-heartedly or not.

[WorzelG]

I'm not convinced the extra party members Corbyn has drummed up are from the marginalised working classes though. Labour need to get their act together though as there doesn't seem to be any opposition to the Tories now and we need one.

I'm still pissed off about Brexit though, I think Corbyn wanted Brexit which is why he was so crap about the campain and i'm never going to like or get behind any pro-brexit politician, labour or otherwise

[Exocet]

A little tired of these Blairites still attacking Corbyn when he's just won the leadership again with a landslide.
Deselect yourselves and go form a Neoliberal party or something.

Anyone who disagrees with Corbyn is smeared and labelled a 'Blair-ite'...its narrow minded and ignorant...this type of attitude is destroying labour.
Corbyns currently has the worst polling in the history of the labour party...the current team seems deluded and arrogant.
Its important the UK has a strong opposition

[aggroculture]

No, what is destroying Labour is the faction that won't accept Corbyn's twice elected leadership, and keeps trying to overthrow him or undermine him, but without having a plan or viable candidate to do so. If you can't work with Corbyn and won't accept him as your leader, then you are betraying the will of the majority of the party, and you should leave.

Give Corbyn a shot at a general election: if he loses, then he will step down. Trying to undermine him from the inside before that point is nothing but a massive favor to the Tories. Labour should have called for a general election right after Brexit, but were instead distracted by an internal, and now failed, attempt to unseat Corbyn.

Also, the left needs to be left: a middle of the road, neoliberal opposition is no opposition at all, and Ed Miliband learned that the hard way.

[slave2thewage]

Jesus, that Amber Rudd woman is awful.

[Sutekh]

The whole cabinet is a shower of corrupt homophobic stinkers

I am astounded liam Fox has been given a job, given the nature of his dismissal from the previous cabinet

Jeremy hunt is obviously a fall guy for the gutting of the NHS

Hammond is just May' s proxy, very little merit of his own

Boris. Foreign sec. The actual fuck?

It's terrible

Still, on the bright side the wheels are coming off ukip, their entire leadership slate is smorgasbord of cartoon villainy. Suzanne Evans is such a pompous, repellent person. If anyone likes her then they are an arsehole or totally blind. I vote labour but I can't stand diane abbott

On that note, why the fuck is she shadow home sec. Why is Jess Phillips saying men shouldn't be allowed to stand as MPs? Both the left and right of labour are in disarray. The lib dems are showing signs of green shoots but they still have an uncharismatic leader with dodgy religious beliefs

Strap in guys, it's going to be a long winter

[Khrz]

Also, the left needs to be left: a middle of the road, neoliberal opposition is no opposition at all, and Ed Miliband learned that the hard way.

Oh god so much this, everywhere.
When the people look at the left and see a moderately more social-oriented right, while still being discontent with the state of things, how can anyone expect them to trust any party and not just go vote for those whose sole (alleged) quality is being nothing like the others ?

I've seen the guys who'll vote far right next round. There's a handful of oldschool racists and traditionalists, sure, but more and more they are joined by leftists who just don't recognize anything in the political landscape anymore. There's no chance they'd vote for the left since they acknowledge that its become the right (but with more happy thoughts).

I understand that trying to go back to the old socialism-inspired left in the current economical and political climate is fundamentally shooting yourself in the foot, but maybe it's the sign that you need to reinvent that shit, rather than shift to the right hoping the people will still be fooled by your little logo and your ancient rhetoric. They're not, and they've been saying it for a while now, and every time the talking heads and politics brush it off as a few malcontents.

You have no idea how malcontent they are, and they're perfectly okay with hijacking the car and ram it into a tree in the hopes that they can deal with that shit once it's in pieces.

[sentient]

haha! beautiful!

[Dra508]

Can we change the title of this thread to Europe and the US lurch to the Right?

Heard today that the French Right don't like Trump. Too right for ya'll?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Exocet]

No, what is destroying Labour is the faction that won't accept Corbyn's twice elected leadership, and keeps trying to overthrow him or undermine him, but without having a plan or viable candidate to do so. If you can't work with Corbyn and won't accept him as your leader, then you are betraying the will of the majority of the party, and you should leave.

Give Corbyn a shot at a general election: if he loses, then he will step down. Trying to undermine him from the inside before that point is nothing but a massive favor to the Tories. Labour should have called for a general election right after Brexit, but were instead distracted by an internal, and now failed, attempt to unseat Corbyn.

Also, the left needs to be left: a middle of the road, neoliberal opposition is no opposition at all, and Ed Miliband learned that the hard way.

The main reason behind Brexit was immigration...Corbyn encourages immigration...he is stubborn so will never sway his mind...he is die hard socialist... the UK in general is moving away from socialism....
He is also a pacifist..he is soft on terror...the UK has a huge terror threat...people want to feel safe...
Our economy is volatile post Brexit...nobody trusts him with the economy....France is a wonderful example of a weak..clumsy socialist government in charge..he displays no leadership qualities.
He is 70 years old has no charisma...only appeals to a small minority.

In 2020 there will be nearly 70 Million in the UK...he needs to win around 20 million votes....LOL!!!

[mfte]

With the growing of more right leaning sentiments and nationalism she is afraid of losing the election

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/wo...n-germany.html

[telee.kom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/wo...n-germany.html

I'm hoping this will set up a trend throughout Europe. Whether it is because of the election or not, this is definitely a good thing

[Sutekh]

What is the point in banning veils... I'm not a massive fan but attacking them like this won't help with anti western radicalism amongst Muslims. and if its women's rights you're concerned about, consider the fact that those forced to wear it (in my experience a small amount) will probably be let out of the house less.

That's also not taking into account the big logical error that is protecting women's autonomy by giving them a legally enforced dress code

Seriously what is the plan here? what good would it do

[Sutekh]

Can we change the title of this thread to Europe and the US lurch to the Right?

Heard today that the French Right don't like Trump. Too right for ya'll?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lol... more likely he is too cosy with Israel, the French right are pretty anti semitic compared to the UK or USA

I'm actually quite amazed at how much support he has from American white nationalists despite that. Any port in a storm(front) I guess...

[Khrz]

Lol... more likely he is too cosy with Israel, the French right are pretty anti semitic compared to the UK or USA

Having qualms about Israeli policies isn't the same as being antisemitic. Don't confuse zionism and semitism, despite the overlap they're not one and the same. Our countries just don't have the same history and diplomatic relations with Israel. When it comes to *actual* antisemitism, I wonder what made you say that? I don't remember anything of the sort coming from the "regular" right wing?

And of course Trump is too right. The US and French right have nothing in common, it's not even comparable, the issues and positions are completely different. If anything the French right as a whole has more in common with the Obama kind of left. Remember that it's a traditional right wing president who told Bush they wouldn't align with him on the war in Iraq, for instance.
Though that kind of right, Gaullism, is losing its momentum, it remains the fundamental blueprint for conservatism in France.

Saying right and left and comparing country alignments is extremely deceptive. Sometimes the policies and preoccupations are too wildly different to draw broad parallels.

If anything, Trump has a lot more in common with our far right. First of all they're both misconceived as having right-leaning voters behind them, while their supporters are much more diverse than that, and don't really care about policies. They mostly want the rest to fuck off and shut up, they're tired of the same old game, of having the same narrative imposed on them, and want to fuck it up.
As such they're a very diverse base, from white to blue collar, from traditionalists to anarchists, from old French families to second generation immigrants. They're not in it to play the game, they don't believe in it. Whether their candidate succeeds or doesn't is mostly a moot point, long as they manage to break the system a little bit along the way.

Some are racists, isolationist, homophobes, xenophobes and what have you, sure. Their common ground though, is disillusionment. The system has failed them, society has advanced and left them behind, the parties they believed in never delivered. They're not even allowed to speak out loud anymore, because what they have to say isn't nice and acceptable.

They're not in to win, they're in for the chance to see the rest lose a little bit.

[Dra508]

Lol... more likely he is too cosy with Israel, the French right are pretty anti semitic compared to the UK or USA

I'm actually quite amazed at how much support he has from American white nationalists despite that. Any port in a storm(front) I guess...

We have this whole evangelical thing where you can hate Jews, but gotta keep Israel a state because, you know, end times. :|

[Sutekh]

Having qualms about Israeli policies isn't the same as being antisemitic. Don't confuse zionism and semitism, despite the overlap they're not one and the same. Our countries just don't have the same history and diplomatic relations with Israel. When it comes to *actual* antisemitism, I wonder what made you say that? I don't remember anything of the sort coming from the "regular" right wing?

There's some confusion here - Im not conflating criticism of Israel with anti semitism, I'm saying anti semites don't like people who support Israel.

Some non anti semites don't like people who support Israel, but that's a different thing, I'm purely talking about why members of the far right or right might not like trump

As for anti Semitism in France, I can only compare it to the uk and Ireland, where it is basically non existent. In France I've seen cartoons in news stands with Jewish caricatures straight out of 30s Germany, and generally speaking a lot more stereotyping and horseplay regarding Jewish people. Also no offence but you have a whole generation of Nazi collaborators who may be dying out but nonetheless are there and raised the boomers. Someone like Le Pen senior doesn't do as well as he did in a country without a problem - and the FN wouldn't have been able to rebrand itself so well unless there was some kind of sympathy. In the uk the antisemitic far right parties NF and BNP could never shed that toxic legacy - it took a clean break and the founding of UKIP for Brits to grant them any kind of electoral success

None of this is to say that France is full of Jew haters or that trumps support for Israel is the sole or biggest reason he's not too popular, but it all factors in. As you say, there are big differences

[Khrz]

No, yeah I'm aware of that, but you mentioned the right wing specifically, that's where I'm lost. I don't remember one comment or policy pointing towards antisemitism coming from the right wing party ?

Also, no offense taken : nazi collaborators are merely people who happened to find their place and brethren under nazi occupation. What I mean by that is that I'm pretty sure that just because other countries didn't have the "opportunity" to have those doesn't mean they don't have the very same kind of people among their population, just a bit more discreetly.

[Sutekh]

I'm talking about the man in the street and French culture rather than politicians, sorry I should have made that more clear

[Exocet]

At this exact point, i dont think Marine Le Pen will win.
However in 2015 a year ago today i never thought Donald Trump would win....i didnt think Brexit would happen...

So she could win...France is way more fucked up than the UK or US in 2016...but im really not sure...

However....Geert Wilders will win in the Netherlands......the Netherlands, the most liberal progressive country on earth....turns far right
They always broke new ground????

[Khrz]

At this exact point, i dont think Marine Le Pen will win... So she could win...but im really not sure...

Oh boy, am I glad you cleared that out.

[icklekitty]

My ears are pointing towards this election as the anglophone countries are getting all "end of days".

I'm reassured a little that France has the two-round system; I currently presume that if FN becomes one of the top two, the rest of the country will rally behind the other party. I think there is an important distinction between "conservative" and "right wing"; the American democrats are generally about as right wing as your average right-centre European party. I think they each have to be this way given their local political climates. When someone says "conservative" I tend to think more restrained/demure than overtly right wing.

I'll be in France on the first election weekend (thanks Placebo) so I look forward (sort of) to experiencing it live.

[Exocet]

French election this year is the most important election in the world this year....

I never normally pay attention to French elections...but my partner is French and also..... the Geopolitical ramifications of this election will be massive. If France votes Marine LePen = End of European Union.

The fact that Britain and the United States both went against what the establishment wanted....is one thing.

But France is in a much more vulnerable place than either Britain or the United States were. Economically, Socially,Financially etc.

And also France is way more nationalistic than the UK.


So although it looks unlikely LePen will not win you have to take in these factors...the guy she is up against is a boring establishment type....France is deeply Socialist...he wants to eradicate socialism from France...he is seen as a Margaret Thatcher type.

French people are bored of the OLD establishment which dominated France...

So although the election works against LePen like the UK and US votes did the circumstances work in her favour...more than the UK or US

Also the UK is doing fine Post Brexit....support for Scottish Independence has gone down..our economy is fine the doom mongers look pathetic...there is a lot going for her.

The reality is in 2017..France is Germanys bitch...France used to be such a proud country...what happened.

[baudolino]

France has never been Germany's bitch. With the exception of the vichy regime. Also: Brexit didn't even happen yet, and you have the pretentious nerve to judge its outcome yet? boy. i don't even know where to begin.

and btw: the term "establishment" has already become as hollow as the skulls of those who use it in favour of their yet seemingly (though not truly) unestablished populists.

Though you are right that LePen would be the end of the EU. With mutual "open" depts between Russia and France. scary as hell.

[miss k bee]

French election this year is the most important election in the world this year....

I never normally pay attention to French elections...but my partner is French and also..... the Geopolitical ramifications of this election will be massive. If France votes Marine LePen = End of European Union.

The fact that Britain and the United States both went against what the establishment wanted....is one thing.

But France is in a much more vulnerable place than either Britain or the United States were. Economically, Socially,Financially etc.

And also France is way more nationalistic than the UK.


So although it looks unlikely LePen will not win you have to take in these factors...the guy she is up against is a boring establishment type....France is deeply Socialist...he wants to eradicate socialism from France...he is seen as a Margaret Thatcher type.

French people are bored of the OLD establishment which dominated France...

So although the election works against LePen like the UK and US votes did the circumstances work in her favour...more than the UK or US

Also the UK is doing fine Post Brexit....support for Scottish Independence has gone down..our economy is fine the doom mongers look pathetic...there is a lot going for her.

The reality is in 2017..France is Germanys bitch...France used to be such a proud country...what happened.

Post Brexit?? Has Article 50 been triggered?? No.

[Exocet]

France has never been Germany's bitch. With the exception of the vichy regime. Also: Brexit didn't even happen yet, and you have the pretentious nerve to judge its outcome yet? boy. i don't even know where to begin.

and btw: the term "establishment" has already become as hollow as the skulls of those who use it in favour of their yet seemingly (though not truly) unestablished populists.

Though you are right that LePen would be the end of the EU. With mutual "open" depts between Russia and France. scary as hell.

Germanys bitch is a stupid comment, dont want to imply that France is weak at all, however its an inconvenient truth, and very clear to everyone that Germany is more or less is the driving seat when it comes to the Eurozone or European Union affairs...has the strongest economy by far. Yeilds the most influence on the other member states, World leaders go to Germany when it comes to European Union. France is seen as in Germanys shadow.
Its not Frances fault, and it did not used to be like this but after Germany reunified the power structure changed.
I just find it odd France is very protective of its identiy, i thought they would leave before the UK.
I despise Trump but what he said about Europe, he was merely saying what everybody refuses to utter.

With regards to Brexit...everyone said there would be a massive recession if we left, in the immediate aftermath of the vote, the banks would move, the union would fall apart, investment would stop....blah blah blah.....none of this has happened, certain papers keep saying doom is coming next week, it never comes....people forget they said the EXACT same thing when the UK refused to join the Eurozone back in 2001....i voted remain, but im feeling more positive we left now. I dont trust the people saying will will fall off a cliff after we trigger article 50 anymore.
And if it stays like this...then LePen can use this to sway voters.

With regards to establishment...virtually every media organisation, financial institution and most in government was against Brexit and Trump...people who hold a lot of power in a society.
And they were flabbergasted they lost.

[Sutekh]

Doom hasn't come because the process hasn't really begun yet, but bad things have happened - I don't know what industry you work in but the site where I work is a ghost town now because Euro investors have fled and eu custom is down - 7 businesses have contracted or folded due to this.

Speaking of establishment media, I agree with your assessment but it is only part of the picture... I don't recall any uk papers at all making great play of the 122 billion (yep) tax black hole that May' s current strategem will create... really does make the (fictional) 350 million seem insignificant