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Pretty sure Sex Dwarf wasn't rehearsed for TDS shows. They were probably working on studio cover of it (see: Closure DVD bonus footage) but ended up recording Memorabilia instead.Originally Posted by Senateguard33
And it was played live in '88 (it's pretty obvious that the date captions in Sex Dwarf and Sanctified clips have the wrong year).
Love Gun was mentioned by TR himself in some TDS-era interview/article (It's in TheNINhotline archives somewhere)
Hairy Member
If EP 3 delivers the same quality as NTAE and AV then the trilogy could easily be the greatest thing that NIN's ever put out. I hope this honeymoon never ends
EDIT: This is probably better suited for Random NIN Thoughts
grrr. woof.
i don't love the arg stuff. or any sci-fi bend in the *storylines* of these records (yz included). it takes away from my ability to relate to it all on a human level. it becomes geeky theater (no offense to anyone, just not my bag) and i have to try really hard not to hear it as such.
Active Member
Gave Up 2017 was quite weak. During the expected synth solos I was wondering wtf atticus was doing.
Flaccid Member
Here's mine. I really don't understand the musical love for anything post with teeth with the exception of ghosts. Year zero was the start of a nine inch nails that never has truly progressed since ,musically, and is significantly less ambitious on a consistant basis since. Listen to the first three albums and the broken ep, and it's hard to believe one person/group did all this stuff without outsourcing creatively. But from year zero to present it all feels simplified, flattened, and very similar more often than not. Half of year zero and most of the slip plus add violence just sound repetitious if played as a mix. With teeth and hesitation marks are more the same than different. I feel trent has stopped moving forward musically. I like the new eps more than anything since ghosts, but honestly they just leave me wanting trent to make something that feels "new" and shows his growth and some new inspiration and directions to explore.. In every other way nin has progressed, but the last album that didn't only feel like refinement of old territory was year zero, and in some ways that felt like a step backwards. I enjoy what's happening now, but i really can't understand where the people who say the music's better than ever are coming from. Most every other angle, hell yeah, but the music? It's good, but it's all another version of what we've heard before.
Last edited by Calvatron; 08-17-2017 at 08:40 PM.
Flaccid Member
Also the last good music video was the perfect drug. Every single one since has just been lazy except 'only', and that was just ok.
Throbbing Member
I'm also disappointed in a lack of music videos in general. Less Than was cool, but I find a lack of connection to the song. TITP and BB were disappointing, and before that, we had CBH which was ok, but hard to watch and The Slip had nothing.
she/her/hers
it's funny how some of your opinions are so perfectly in-line with mine (but very few other NIN fans) in that ghosts is probably my second-favorite and most-listened-to NIN album and i don't really like year zero at all...but we diverge in that i LOVE the slip, and the two new EPs are the best thing to come out under the NIN banner since the fragile.
Stubby Member
it's literally impossible to top the fragile and the downward spiral
Active Member
That YouTube parody "Trent Reznor Song" is proof that he's become formulaic, but at the same time I guess part of me has just been happy to continue getting new NIN for the past decade. At this point, however, I would be fine with him disappearing for five years again if it meant he could make something challenging again. I do appreciate the fact that the new stuff is breaking the modern TR mold just a little bit here and there, though.
Last edited by piggy; 08-18-2017 at 12:50 AM.
Active Member
If you guys think that a band that has released a double album of all instrumentals, a fairly straightforward alt rock album, an album recorded on a laptop while on tour, an EP of mostly piano and acoustic music, and EP of industrial metal, an EP of borderline noise rock but not really, etc... is formulaic, I'm not sure how many 25+ year old bands you listen to.
Stubby Member
Hesitation Marks, after what 4 years and multiple, so many, many tries to get into it...is just un-listenable to me. And I love literally everything else NIN.
Though based on some of what I've read, this might not be an incredibly controversial opinion.
Throbbing Member
As far as outsourcing, I think as far as "nine inch nails is trent reznor," – this may be the most controversial opinion ever – is concerned, I think that's a bit of a myth, in a way. As someone who became a little more of a music nerd because of someone like Trent, I do think that although he is kind of the CEO and CCO of NIN, a lot of my favorite aspects of the old NIN sound have been missing since he stopped working with certain people (Charlie Clouser, Keith Hildebrandt, Sean Beavan, Chris Vrenna, Flood and especially Peter Christopherson – the magic ingredient of NIN has always been a heavy dose of Coil love, to me). The Fragile is amazing, but even with some of those people, I think there are certain elements that sound a bit too much like straight rock music, even if it's done with synthesizers and electronic drums, that I don't particularly love. Compare the otherworldly soundscapes of "10 Miles High," which is essentially a total remix by Hildebrandt of a kind of cock rock-y song, to the original version on Deviations. (Go listen to Horse Rotorvator, Love's Secret Domain with a set of headphones, and then Scatology by Coil if y'all have for some reason never heard it. They're on archive.org, since I guess neither Jhonn nor Peter had any descendants, or family, it's kind of in a gray area ethically.)
Again, he's the one that made the final call about which ideas were the ones to axe and which ones to use, and obviously is the main songwriter. Taste and curatorial talent is a huge, huge part of putting great music together, but the line between "songwriting" and "producing" and "programming" becomes really, really blurred with electronically based music (see the current controversies over hip hop producers, who are essentially write the music of hip hop songs, not getting paid or enough credit, as if spoken word is the thing kids are into). But I am more of an electronic music and (good) pop music fan than a rock music fan, so ... that's the angle I'm coming at it from with the "myth" thing. NIN has always been a genius pop synthesis of various underground and not-so-underground musical sources, and a lot of that has become nearly impossible to find in the Internet age. It's like finding a needle in a haystack of 100,000 [insert your least favorite internet music genre here] songs. Please do not come after me with pitchforks and torches, I really love the man and his band. But I am a little relieved he's finally officially let someone else into the fold. I think other people have always been part of Nine Inch Nails, and there are times where I feel like maybe Trent could have psychologically benefitted from acknowledging that.
I stopped being a die-hard after The Fragile era for a long time. There are a couple of songs on that album that hint at things becoming stale for me, but all the performances/recordings/arrangements are so insanely well done, so it's hard to immediately notice that the general themes are becoming a little stale. That's why I loved Year Zero, when it came out – he had finally gotten out of his head, not just in interviews, or on a big single (THTF) but for a whole record!
Some of my favorite tracks on TF are the co-writes (same for The Perfect Drug). By the time With Teeth came out, I felt like it was a response more to the commercial "failure" of TF, and the lack of confidence that sometimes follows an extended period of addiction (I unfortunately have direct experience of this, with anti-anxiety medication that I was very, very naive and trusting about, ugh), than a step forward musically. "All The Love In The World" is an insanely great, promising intro – he's back!!! I remember thinking – and then it feels like we're back in 1992 with "You Know What You Are?" It's the first NIN album where I only like a few songs, and the first time I feel like there really was some kind of formula being used, and the first time I feel like he's looking at his own back catalogue for inspiration. I was baffled by that experience with a NIN album when it came out, although I remember feeling worried when I heard "Deep." I appreciate it as an artistic statement about addiction, but a lot of it falls flat lyrically without knowing what it's about. And without that bit of knowledge from the interviews, it does sound exactly like what critics had been saying about NIN – a sad guy complaining about his problems for way, way too long. I tend to like the idea of Ghosts more than the execution, and I love it for kickstarting his long-dreamed of soundtrack work, but I like the soundtrack work itself better. I feel like, until Add Violence, that's where a lot of the best work from the post-Fragile era is, and he used to say when he was younger that he thought he'd be doing that, so it doesn't surprise me.
There's something particularly about the songwriting – maybe it's the Trent and Atticus magic – that genuinely feels different about Add Violence. There are differences harmonically that make it sound fresh and are actually an expansion of what NIN tends to do musically, that I haven't heard for about 8 years from NIN itself. That is musically – not structurally, not in terms of sound design or production, but the actual notes, melodies and progressions.
Also – since this is a pretty critical post of a large swath of NIN's career – I do want to emphasize that almost all bands/solo performers get stale as they get older. The fact that Trent and co. did anything like Year Zero, in terms of dramatically changing what your thematic focus is, 17 years into a band, is pretty rare for a large, kind of brand-oriented musical outlet, or released a large collection of instrumentals, is the definition of not being formulaic. I think the first signs of truly new musical life for non-soundtrack related stuff came with Welcome oblivion - I think working outside of a band name he's had since he was in his 20s and officially writing with two other people was a huge creative jolt that was long overdue. But there is also way too much focus on sort of re-creating the back catalogue with slight variations that audibly begins with certain songs on With Teeth, and sporadically appears here and there, and is my main issue with totally loving NTAE, even though it has many new elements within that sound. Which is why Add Violence was so exciting for me and why I am here now.
Last edited by Pbgut; 08-18-2017 at 08:07 AM.
Flaccid Member
the slip had, discipline, which while it was something that could be made in a day was fitting for the album. It was never meant to be a heavy hitter.
Throbbing Member
I don't think it's better or worse than it's always been. Charlie arguably played the solo better than either Alessandro or Atticus, but they've never played the song with the proper guitar accompaniment during the solo. It's really a weird choice.
Active Member
We're just referring to the past 10 years or so, though. There's that songwriting formula that's become his signature (evident in songs like "The Hand That Feeds" or "Came Back Haunted".) It's not a bad thing, dude knows how to write a hook, it's just something that gets used a lot. I didn't mean for it to sound overly critical, it's not like I could do any better if I were writing songs.
Active Member
But the last decade consists of an electronic album recorded on a laptop on tour, a double album of instrumentals, a sort of garage band album or at least as close as he's going to get. A straightforward sorta contemporary rock album sort of kind of, a somewhat noise rock EP, and a fairly experimental EP that still managed one radio friendly pop song. And that's not even counting soundtracks and HtDA
all of those are for lack of better words
Active Member
don't forget probably the craziest thing he put out in that span too (and maybe the best):
Active Member
Point taken. I guess I kinda get what Calvatron was saying, but I don't know how to articulate it. There's nothing wrong with what Trent's done in the past decade, it just doesn't consistently capture the imagination of some fans and perhaps that's painting everything with too broad of a brush. It's true that there have been really fucking brilliant and varied things from this time period.
xScott
I had hoped Theme from Black Ops 2 was going to be insane like that, but alas it wasn't.
I like the music from the Broken era MTV commercial too, Top Of The Hour. Thats a choice cut.
Active Member
I've never felt more physically assaulted by a piece of music than by this one track. It would blow my fucking mind if he sat down and made an EP like this.
I think this might be the bravest thing he's ever made.
Throbbing Member
I'm not sure if this is controversial, but I fucking love Butch Vig's remix of Last, and have done so since it was just a shitty 11 kHz, 8-bit AIFF. Seems to be fairly divisive though. You either love it or hate it. I, for one, think it would have fit just fine on Fixed. It may well be my favourite NIN remix.
God is an American
Great post, although I would differ with you about the relative songwriting merits of certain post-Fragile works. What we might call the epoch of NIN after TR found sobriety, but before Atticus' formally joining the band, remains controversial for many of the reasons you point out — although I love all of it, with very few reservations.
I kind of agree with you about how Hillebrandt and other previous sound designers he's worked with (now formally subsumed with Atticus' role as a co-producer and fellow composer being recognized as full partnership) are routinely under-recognized. The only thing that pissed me off about Deviations 1 — aside from so many people's nin.com orders arriving dented, surely Sandbag's fault for improper shipping — was the lack of credits on the physical copy for all other performers and contributors.
Last edited by botley; 08-19-2017 at 12:58 PM.
Throbbing Member
Yep! I was kind of amazed by the total lack of credits as well. I also know, from making a lot of music as an enthusiast myself, that whenever I was hanging out with other people who were making music that I liked, that it was impossible not to be influenced by it, at least a little, and the influence wasn't always totally controllable. It was just some kind of social chemistry through music.
Also – I don't think it's totally clear in my original post – I do like a lot of the output after The Fragile, but a lot of it is lacking the "magic" of the earlier material that makes me totally love it, and the albums become a lot more uneven for me. With Teeth is actually a very solid album, and I've come to appreciate it more, but when I first played it, there are a few tracks that sound way too close to what I didn't like about mainstream rock, or they just sound a little too much like Broken, and like I said, I unfortunately and accidentally had some very direct experience with what he's talking about on that album (so I can vouch for its accuracy!), but there is a definite sort of magic/love/"wow" factor that starts to disappear for me. My least favorite NIN tracks, after The Fragile era, are the kind of "sludge" rock sounding stuff – there's a couple of those on Ghosts that I always skip. That's just a taste thing, though. I like melody a lot. I sort of started looking more at what the Warp/Nothing artists than I had before around that time.
And I think that part of it is because I know what Trent's doing at that point (Broken is maybe his truest "solo" effort as NIN, in a way? I think it's self-produced), and I was always just as interested in what other people were doing with Trent and what he was doing with them (The Fragile fortunately drops the "nine inch nails is trent reznor" thing, and just says "written, programmed, etc. by trent reznor," heh). The remix albums have some of my favorite tracks on them outside of the albums – they're more like re-arrangements than remixes.
I'm trying to figure out a reason for the shift. I feel like a lot of the most publicly known, innovative electronic music (Warp Records, etc.) began to lose their luster, critically, or in terms of exciting novelty. There were so many insane technological innovations that happened around that time, that I guess as the tools became more accessible, the music became less special or rare. Even giants like Aphex Twin and Autechre were criticized for being out of ideas or being totally unlistenable (though drukQs and Confield are ... incredible to me, you just have to actually listen to them and not use it as background or dance music). Radiohead makes Kid A in 2000. The ideas had started to be subsumed more and more by mainstream acts, and it was, I guess, less exciting to some.
Trent complains around the time of The Fragile that the stuff they'd done on TDS could now be achieved with plugins, and makes an anti-Pro Tools statement when With Teeth comes out. So he's distancing himself for a few years from a lot of younger people who were probably exclusively using digital means and didn't have a sweet classical music or more traditional analog synth background like he or Charlie Clouser did. I'm sure he had distanced himself from the Coil guys due to either their completely out of control, "ritualistic" drug use or perhaps a falling out over them not signing to Nothing – TFA doesn't have them on it, but Peter Christopherson is on "Driver Down" and the Quake soundtrack, Jhonn dies a few years later, and except for the planned collaboration with Peter on HTDA, they never reappear in the discography – and, I dunno, maybe he was burned by Aphex Twin refusing to actually listen to his music? That's pretty harsh, even for Aphex.
So anyway, TL;DR, a lot of the shift in collaborators and sound, based on some public statements, could be attributed to Trent wanting to get away from what had become less otherworldly electronic music sounds that required very little expertise or experience, and had become more and more mundane with the introduction of widely available, relatively cheap digital software synths and whatnot. How many people downloaded a Reaktor demo because of those Fragile screenshots (I know I did ...)?
This isn't really controversial or iconoclastic, sorry.
Last edited by Pbgut; 08-19-2017 at 01:41 PM.
Active Member
I love it, too. Always have.
God is an American
No, that's on par for Aphex
I am sure there is more to the story involving Coil's work for Nothing that we haven't yet heard about.
she/her/hers
check out some mid-late period COIL if you're into super noisy stuff that still has some semblance of musicality.
Flaccid Member
Trying to distill what i meant down. His music has gotton simpler than it had been during tds and tf days which reversed a direction that had built over the first 12 years and has stayed pretty consistantly at a level since then. Every time a new nine inch nails release comes around i get about what inexpect to get. It's good, but nothing surprises me. They're all consistently relatable to what he's made before. The downward spiral, the fragile, and with teeth were all bold new directions from what had been done before and i never had any idea what to expect until i heard them. If i sit down and listen to his earlier radio hits: head like a whole, closer, hurt, tdtwwa, starfuckers, there's a lot more variation than his newer ones: hand that feeds, discipline, survivalism, came back haunted, less than. If you switched discipline and less than between the two releases, a first time listener probably would even realized two songs written almost a decade apart were on the wrong albums. He's fifty, it's to be expected and i'm happy they are still around, and i'm happy they still put on a great show, and i'm happy they still make good music. I think part of what changed is that he no waits years between any releases and no longer rewrites an album twenty times over before releasing anyhing. Instead of intently focusing on each piece of music he's expanded what he does, writing albums different ways, creating arg's, joining apple, giving a renewed focus to the physicality of music with a return to vinyl and the pc's. It great, but i think he was very truthful in 2009 when he said that was the end of nine inch nails as we knew it. Now NIN's in a legacy era and we're seeing the growth of trent himself.
Active Member
Yup. Got that covered.
So cold it can sting.
Sometimes, just sometimes, despite general reactions, you really want to listen to Kawehi's Closer.
So why the fuck has it been deleted off of youtube, and the why the fuck is vimeo's buffer time so slow? FUCK ME I'M RAGIN' SO HARD I'M GONNA CREATUE DUPLICATE UPLOADS FOR PUREST FEELING AND THE BUTCH VIG OR WHATEVER LAST REMIX GODDAMMIT
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