Controversial Nine Inch Nails opinions

[BRoswell]

I dont know....the starfuckers remixes get old but everything else is really strong. Ive said it before, but 'slipping away' into 'the great collapse' is the quintessential nin sound IMO.

I agree actually. Like I said, I enjoy Things Falling Apart, but Year Zero Remixed is the only remix album (Me, I'm Not remix aside) that I will listen to all the way through.

[BenAkenobi]

To me the very idea of full-scope remix album is more bad than good, it feels more like a departure into "tribute albums" territory. EP like FDTS or TFA is much better.

[seasonsinthesky]

EP like FDTS

10 (or 11) tracks running 64 (or 68) minutes = exactly the opposite of the definition of an EP!

[BenAkenobi]

your definition != nin's definition

[sheepdean]

your definition != nin's definition

Trent is many things. None of them include someone who knows the definition of an EP.

If he called The Fragile a single, would you agree with him on that too?

[BenAkenobi]

sheedean, dude, get some sleep, it's too early in the morning

[sheepdean]

sheedean, dude, get some sleep, it's too early in the morning

That is an ep. FDTS is not, and Broken only is if you ignore the last two tracks.

I think artists sometimes think "EP" means "not a normal (aka original album) release".

[allegro]

That is an ep. FDTS is not, and Broken only is if you ignore the last two tracks.

I think artists sometimes think "EP" means "not a normal (aka original album) release".

"According to Recording Industry Association of America, an EP is defined as 3-5 songs OR under 30 minutes, whereas a single is allowed to contain up to 4 songs."

[sheepdean]

"According to Recording Industry Association of America, an EP is defined as 3-5 songs OR under 30 minutes, whereas a single is allowed to contain up to 4 songs."

Aye, and Broken is under 30 minutes without Physical and Suck. Though considering no CD copy of it has ever had neither (it was basically a 2-disc release even on the initial run) it doesn't make much sense to ignore those, imo.

[fillow]

Recording Industry Association of America is living in 19th century, their definition doesn't make much sense in CD era, let alone digital. I say an EP is what artist calls it.

[sheepdean]

Recording Industry Association of America is living in 19th century, their definition doesn't make much sense in CD era, let alone digital. I say an EP is what artist calls it.

Well then EP becomes meaningless, so we should just scrap the term entirely.

[allegro]

Aye, and Broken is under 30 minutes without Physical and Suck. Though considering no CD copy of it has ever had neither (it was basically a 2-disc release even on the initial run) it doesn't make much sense to ignore those, imo.

It's an EP with bonus tracks that were added at the last minute? It's still too short for an LP?

[FernandoDante]

If Trent is embarrassed of FDTS enough to call it an EP, why not promote Broken to a regular LP?

[m15a]

Calling FDTS an EP wasn't a sign of embarrassment. Like sheepdean said, EP is used to refer to "not a normal release" or, I think more precisely, a release that is less significant (or assigned less significance) than a full album but more so than a single. That meaning has been used by a few artists I can think of off the top of my head, and it fits most of the more traditional EP releases (with 4 pop-song-length songs).

[sheepdean]

It's an EP with bonus tracks that were added at the last minute? It's still too short for an LP?

With all tracks (not counting silence) it skirts over 30 minutes, and easily is over the track count, so it's an LP. Yes they were added at the last minute, but that doesn't really matter in terms of definition.

[allegro]

With all tracks (not counting silence) it skirts over 30 minutes, and easily is over the track count, so it's an LP. Yes they were added at the last minute, but that doesn't really matter in terms of definition.

Then, yeah, it's silly. Broken is easily one of my two favorite NIN albums, so calling it an "EP" seems like it's like a "single" and not really an "album." Weird.

But, Further Down The Spiral is a collection of post-album "stuff" that wasn't intended to be an album, so I don't even know ... You know, in the olden days, you still called that an "album," anyway, honestly.

[EndlessLoveless]

So what is the running time of broken, with the last 2 tracks, compared to the slip? Its got to be close.

I dont consider broken an ep, by the way. I dont care what anyone says. EP, LP......it means nothing if its not vinyl and like, the 60's. Its either an album or a single in my book. I consider EDIETS a single. FDTS is a remix ALBUM. And the live 2013 thing is a single.

[botley]

Further Down the Spiral is a remix album, yes. It may have started life as a maxi-single/double A-side for Piggy/Hurt, with remixes thrown in to make an EP (like "Closer to God") but it was eventually listed and sold in stores as an album at the corresponding price point. That matters for this definition, too: how the record company lists and markets the release. The RIAA definition is for sales certification purposes (singles can only be packaged for sale with a certain number of bonuses or else it counts as unfair enticement to get on the charts).

Broken is a "mini-album", for these reasons. It has typically been listed (in its usual one-disc configuration) at a lower price point than most albums, but it was never considered for chart competition with other artists' EPs or singles.

This whole pedantic definition of categories is entirely thanks to traditional music business marketing, and is increasingly irrelevant when you deliberately give music away for free to promote something else.

[sheepdean]

So what is the running time of broken, with the last 2 tracks, compared to the slip? Its got to be close.

I dont consider broken an ep, by the way. I dont care what anyone says. EP, LP......it means nothing if its not vinyl and like, the 60's. Its either an album or a single in my book. I consider EDIETS a single. FDTS is a remix ALBUM. And the live 2013 thing is a single.

The Slip is 43:45
Broken (not counting silence) is 31:35

Still 12 minutes between them of course - but on a well-spaced record, they both fall within the band for a 33.3rpm 12", if you want to go for the vinyl definition. And too long for a 33.3 10", which is how many view an EP.


(bonus: Purest Feeling is shorter than The Slip, at 42:52)

[WorzelG]

If you check the NIN certifications from the BPI in the UK, there's a weird thing where Fixed has gone platinum, whereas Broken hasn't even gone silver, eh? Makes me wonder if Fixed was sold as a single here, I bought it but I can't remember prices from 1993? Its just weird that people would get Fixed but not Broken

[Sarah K]

When someone goes on and on about Trent having awesome lyrics, I usually want to side eye the fuck out of them.

He has his momenst. But his lyrics are often times laughable and terrible.

[sheepdean]

If you check the NIN certifications from the BPI in the UK, there's a weird thing where Fixed has gone platinum, whereas Broken hasn't even gone silver, eh? Makes me wonder if Fixed was sold as a single here, I bought it but I can't remember prices from 1993? Its just weird that people would get Fixed but not Broken

It was big in the club scenes - BPI's listing puts it as an album:
NINE INCH NAILS - FIXED EP
Platinum Certification (Album) 01 March 1995
ISLAND (ISLAND)
Released 01 December 1992


The site doesn't allow direct linking to results, but you can search at http://www.bpi.co.uk/certified-awards.aspx


Remember that a UK platinum is a measly 300k units, as opposed to the US' 1m

[m15a]

Further Down the Spiral is a remix album, yes. It may have started life as a maxi-single/double A-side for Piggy/Hurt, with remixes thrown in to make an EP (like "Closer to God") but it was eventually listed and sold in stores as an album at the corresponding price point. That matters for this definition, too: how the record company lists and markets the release. The RIAA definition is for sales certification purposes (singles can only be packaged for sale with a certain number of bonuses or else it counts as unfair enticement to get on the charts).

In the US (NY, if that matters), FDTS was sold for significantly less than a standard full album. At my local store, it was $10-$11 for FDTS, $17-$18 for a full album like TDS, and $7-$8 for a maxi-single like HLAH (US). Same with Smells Like Children by MM - labeled as an EP and about $10. I remember because I bought FDTS and Smells Like Children prior to any LP from either of those groups since they were so cheap (relatively, although it all seems expensive now).

[implanted_microchip]

I loathe the "is NIN industrial or not" argument that fans seem to have been having since PHM. It's so pointless. I don't see how it even really matters what it "technically" is or not in genres, I don't see how you can label NIN as any one genre in particular to begin with, and I don't see the point in bitching about what "true" industrial is anyway. There's purists that have this attitude it seems that if it's not Throbbing Gristle it can piss off and people who seem to think that any amount of distortion = industrial and really at the end of the day how does it actually matter overall whatsoever? If someone hears Reptile and thinks it sounds industrial, who cares?

I just hate the need to supposedly label what NIN is entirely. This is a band that's released Broken, Still and Year Zero. I wouldn't say there's much overlap in any way between those three releases in sound or genre ultimately. The Downward Spiral is on another planet of style next to The Slip. With Teeth is an ocean away from Pretty Hate Machine. It feels incredibly futile to say "NIN is (insert genre here)" because it's been plenty of different styles, genres and had tons of different influences from album to album. Trent goes back to certain things but then again he jumps away from them pretty often as well. And should we bring remix albums (for the record I'm trying to stay out of the what is an EP debate going on here so don't jump my case for saying album) into consideration too? There's been four for major releases physically and then the Hesitation Marks remix EP and tons of singles with tons of variants and foreign editions and altogether so many different remixes that there's a giant amount of diverse styles within those, and at least 90's NIN seemed very focused on the remixes counting and having value next to their original counterparts, so shouldn't they be brought up? Or should it just be major studio releases that count?

There's definitely themes and concepts and an approach to music that's consistent over the band's discography but when it comes to an actual genre I don't really know what you'd call it, and I really don't think it matters ultimately. If someone said they loved rock music I could easily hand them With Teeth; if someone told me they love heavier music I could totally offer them Broken or The Downward Spiral; if someone said they loved mellower stuff I could give them Ghosts. Any of those people would probably like those things, and they're all so far apart. I've known people who are obsessed with electronic music who have adored Year Zero when I've recommended it but not cared at all for most other NIN albums. I've known metal heads that would hate Hesitation Marks or find Pretty Hate Machine too pop-oriented or laughable but who think Wish is one of the greatest songs ever and think Heresy is remarkable. There's a lot of diversity among NIN's output and I just think it's a real disservice to a lot of it to claim it's all any one label specifically.

[DVYDRNS]

spotify lists broken as an album. and pretty much anything with more than 4 songs. anything with 4 or less is in the singles area.

[botley]

In the US (NY, if that matters), FDTS was sold for significantly less than a standard full album. At my local store, it was $10-$11 for FDTS, $17-$18 for a full album like TDS, and $7-$8 for a maxi-single like HLAH (US). Same with Smells Like Children by MM - labeled as an EP and about $10. I remember because I bought FDTS and Smells Like Children prior to any LP from either of those groups since they were so cheap (relatively, although it all seems expensive now).

Was this in 1995? How much was Broken? I know that both Smells Like Children and Further Down the Spiral were considered albums by the RIAA, whereas Broken is a "Short-form Album" (mini-album).

[FULLMETAL]

[allegro]

OH MY GOD, dude, you totally win the thread. You kept the fucking receipt.

But, yeah, compared to "17-$18 for a full album like TDS" per @m15a , that's cheaper for sure. (Still not as cheap as a cassette.)

Notice that it was ON SALE, though, heh.

[m15a]

Was this in 1995? How much was Broken? I know that both Smells Like Children and Further Down the Spiral were considered albums by the RIAA, whereas Broken is a "Short-form Album" (mini-album).

Yeah, 1995 or 1996. Broken's price was pretty similar to those discs. Possibly, Broken was a dollar or two less. Actually, my earloier numbers might be a little off. maybe it was $10 for Broken and $12 for FDTS, but I know FDTS and Smells like Children seemed like really good deals. (And turns out they were.)

[allegro]

Ok, now you REALLY win the thread.