Tool

[Krazy]

I'm not buying the lawsuit excuse. First, I think it's already been over for a couple years already. Bands get into lawsuits frequently, unfortunately. Someone on fourtheye pointed out the stuff that Balck Sabbath had to go through in the '70's. Look at Trent, who was in a lawsuit with Malm during With Teeth.

I just dont don't see how that Tool lawsuit would put the writing/arranging process to a screeching halt. They have their own work space and the tech to record ideas on the fly. Everything points back to Adam being a bit lazy or not caring. Maybe with the family he's just not into the whole creative process anymore.

I feel like we've covered this before...

[theimage13]

From my understanding, artists these days don't make much off digital sales either, and that most money to be made is in touring and merch...

There's a big difference between not making much and not making a penny. A $10 iTunes sale nets the artist about 94 cents. So if Tool hopes to sell a million albums in the digital world, that's almost $1,000,000 in lost money. I'd hold off on releasing an album if I thought I had a path to keeping that money instead of letting it go to the label (which already gets over $5 per sale).

[gerbil]

From my understanding, artists these days don't make much off digital sales either, and that most money to be made is in touring and merch...

Everything I've seen is that artists are making more from digital sales than they were from physical sales.


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[gerbil]

I'm not buying the lawsuit excuse. First, I think it's already been over for a couple years already. Bands get into lawsuits frequently, unfortunately. Someone on fourtheye pointed out the stuff that Balck Sabbath had to go through in the '70's. Look at Trent, who was in a lawsuit with Malm during With Teeth.

I just dont don't see how that Tool lawsuit would put the writing/arranging process to a screeching halt. They have their own work space and the tech to record ideas on the fly. Everything points back to Adam being a bit lazy or not caring. Maybe with the family he's just not into the whole creative process anymore.

I feel like we've covered this before...

I'm kind of putting it in as part of a broader picture. I don't think the lawsuit is the beginning and the end of it. I think the lawsuit just threw a wrench into everything.

Also, the other artists you mentioned had managers and lawyers working behind the scenes on their respect suits. It sounds like this one was the band and their lawyers.


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[botley]

I understand why it didn't happen, because of the label disputes etc., but it's still a bummer they didn't properly remaster Opiate for the deluxe reissue. The CD I have is just crying out for better A/D conversion (for instance, I hear a bit of carrier band whine around the 2kHz frequencies when the songs fade to silence), and just a little more time in the mastering suite. Not saying they should slam the volume, like NIN is doing for their remasters, but even without substantially changing anything it could benefit enormously from some spit-polish. Oh well, guess I'll have to content myself with a personally 'sweetened' version.

[theimage13]

[imail724]

Just got my one day ticket to Governor's. It was a little more than I would have liked to spend (more than I spent for NIN at Panorama), but after being a fan for over 10 years, I'm glad I'm finally going to see Tool live.

[seasonsinthesky]

I understand why it didn't happen, because of the label disputes etc., but it's still a bummer they didn't properly remaster Opiate for the deluxe reissue. The CD I have is just crying out for better A/D conversion (for instance, I hear a bit of carrier band whine around the 2kHz frequencies when the songs fade to silence), and just a little more time in the mastering suite. Not saying they should slam the volume, like NIN is doing for their remasters, but even without substantially changing anything it could benefit enormously from some spit-polish. Oh well, guess I'll have to content myself with a personally 'sweetened' version.

Same. Hell, I'd rather they have it remixed from scratch for the studio tracks. A lot can be done now to improve the shitty mono guitar and spice up the flat drum mix. I wouldn't touch the live songs, though... I dunno if they were mixed by someone else or if that show was just recorded better than the studio tracks, but the fidelity increases significantly for every instrument. They should have released that entire show as the EP, really, if the whole thing was mixed like that.

[botley]

Hard to say exactly what happened, there. They recorded those studio tracks at the famous Sound City Studios, and used the same co-producer/engineer (Sylvia Massy, who also worked on Undertow) for the live tracks, mixing the whole EP at Can-Am Recorders. I don't know that a modern re-mix would necessarily yield much of an improvement, unless they really wanted to get into nitty-gritty digital masonry... and that doesn't seem like Tool's style. I like the mostly-analogue vibe they got on 10,000 Days with Joe Barresi engineering.

[Krazy]

09 March, 2017 (10:00am) TOOL TOUR DATES HEADS UP I will be posting some NEW TOOL TOUR DATES next week, so be sure to keep checking the site for INFO ABOUT MORE SHOWS.

[Prettybrokenspiral]

If Tool hates labels and "the business" so much, why are they still on a label then? I can't see how fighting to get out of your current shitty contract so you can record and release and reap the profits all on your own is any more of a gambit than taking a decade to release a new album on a label that offers you no incentive from digital sales or the like.

These excuses are lame. A lawsuit that drags on for years shouldn't prevent four dudes who have known each other their entire lives from getting into a room together and jamming out some aggression. Nothing stops this band from touring on the same 10 songs every year and making a truckload of cash from each show. They have plenty of money; it's their lack of cohesion and creativity that is holding up new material..

[screwdriver]

I'm kind of putting it in as part of a broader picture. I don't think the lawsuit is the beginning and the end of it. I think the lawsuit just threw a wrench into everything.

Also, the other artists you mentioned had managers and lawyers working behind the scenes on their respect suits. It sounds like this one was the band and their lawyers.


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I don't understand your last comment; surely they didn't do this suit pro se?

[gerbil]

I don't understand your last comment; surely they didn't do this suit pro se?

No. But I don't think the label stepped in or anything.


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[Ryan]

09 March, 2017 (10:00am) TOOL TOUR DATES HEADS UP I will be posting some NEW TOOL TOUR DATES next week, so be sure to keep checking the site for INFO ABOUT MORE SHOWS.

Almost spat my latté.

[ManBurning]

Nothing stops this band from touring on the same 10 songs every year.

When I originally saw the announcement, I got excited and prayed for a Vancouver date to be released. Then I started reading the facebook comments, and someone basically said this. And then I had a total moment and was like "shiiiit, this person is right. Fuck this band. I'm not spending $140 (or whatever absurd price they will be asking) to see the same 10 songs they've been playing for over a decade"

As much as I like the band, I can't justify giving them any more money on tour or on t-shirts if they're gonna be like this. At this point, they've just become a running joke. They're just a "classic rock band" now. They're touring on their back-catalog for a quick buck. It really pains me to say that too. I really enjoy these guys. But I don't agree with their business decisions.

The problem is, at least Marilyn Manson is still trying to stay relevant and making new music, his live shows just SUCK. I've given up giving money to that guy as well. It's the opposite with these guys, they still put on a FANTASTIC live show, but they really need some new fuckin material! Trust me, I would LOVE to give these guys my hard earned money on their live show, I just don't feel like the deserve it at this point in time.

It really does hurt me saying that too. These guys are in my top 10 bands of all time.

[Ryan]

You're in my top 10 Rammstein fans of all time.

[center27j]

When I originally saw the announcement, I got excited and prayed for a Vancouver date to be released. Then I started reading the facebook comments, and someone basically said this. And then I had a total moment and was like "shiiiit, this person is right. Fuck this band. I'm not spending $140 (or whatever absurd price they will be asking) to see the same 10 songs they've been playing for over a decade"

As much as I like the band, I can't justify giving them any more money on tour or on t-shirts if they're gonna be like this. At this point, they've just become a running joke. They're just a "classic rock band" now. They're touring on their back-catalog for a quick buck. It really pains me to say that too. I really enjoy these guys. But I don't agree with their business decisions.

The problem is, at least Marilyn Manson is still trying to stay relevant and making new music, his live shows just SUCK. I've given up giving money to that guy as well. It's the opposite with these guys, they still put on a FANTASTIC live show, but they really need some new fuckin material! Trust me, I would LOVE to give these guys my hard earned money on their live show, I just don't feel like the deserve it at this point in time.

It really does hurt me saying that too. These guys are in my top 10 bands of all time.

agreed...but if they'd stop ignoring "undertow" in the live setting all would be forgiven. they've basically written this album off since the late 90s (which is beyond my comprehension).

[ManBurning]

You're in my top 10 Rammstein fans of all time.

lol, I'm traveling to see them again this summer! (I have issues).

agreed...but if they'd stop ignoring "undertow" in the live setting all would be forgiven. they've basically written this album off since the late 90s (which is beyond my comprehension).

Not surprising though. Most bands tend to neglect their first album/early work for some reason.

I'd like to see more from Opiate to be honest. Hush needs to make a live comeback!

[virushopper]

Woot! The "Search for More Money" tour continues!

[bobbie solo]

It's the opposite with these guys, they still put on a FANTASTIC live show

Here's a Tool setlist from their last "tour":

1. Third Eye
   
   
2. The Grudge
   
   
3. Parabol
   
   
4. Parabola
   
   
5. Schism
   
   
6. Opiate
   
   
7. Ænema
   
   
8. Descending
   
   
9. Jambi
   
   
10. Forty-Six & 2
    
    
11. Intermission (believe this goes on for like 10 minutes...laughable)
    
    
    
12. Drum Solo
    
    (with snippet of Merkaba)
    
    
13. Sweat
    
    
14. (-) Ions
    
    
15. Stinkfist
    
    I believe the total time for the shows on this tour was around 75-90 minutes. With only ten completely separate songs. Compared with NIN, a contemporary...
    
    
    
    1. Copy of A
       
       
    2. 1,000,000
       
       
    3. Terrible Lie
       
       
    4. March of the Pigs
       
       
    5. Piggy
       
       
    6. All Time Low
       
       
    7. Disappointed
       
       
    8. Came Back Haunted
       
       
    9. Find My Way
       
       
    10. Various Methods of Escape
        
        
    11. Sanctified
        
        
    12. The Frail
        
        
    13. The Wretched
        
        
    14. The Big Come Down
        
        
    15. Survivalism
        
        
    16. Running
        
        
    17. A Warm Place
        
        
    18. Somewhat Damaged
        
        
    19. Wish
        
        
    20. The Hand That Feeds
        
        
    21. Head Like a Hole
        
    22. Encore:
    23. All the Love in the World
        
        
    24. Even Deeper
        
        
    25. While I'm Still Here
        
        
    26. Black Noise
        
        
    27. Hurt
        
    
    
    These shows went on for around 2 hours (sometimes a little more iirc) with 25 unique songs being played. That's what a real band does for their fans shelling out alot of $ to see them at an arena show. And I really hope no one tries to use Third Eye's length as the reason why they play few songs. Add in that BS with Maynard hiding in the darkness and barely speaking to the crowd, another slap in the face. Arena shows from almost ALL artists, not just NIN, closing in on 2 hours is the norm, not 75 minutes.
    

[Harry Seaward]

I know I haven't been able to stop talking about Ween for the past year, but... I saw Ween three weeks ago in Vegas. They played Fri/Sat/Sun. They played about ~26 songs each night and didn't repeat a single one over the course of the weekend. That kinda helped put Tool in perspective for me.

(tbh, it really didn't make NIN look super great either - I saw NIN in Vegas two shows back to back and they repeated the majority of their songs between the two nights.)

With that being said - if Reno is included in this run of dates, I'll be buying a ticket the second they go on sale (because that's the only chance I'll have of getting one at face value.) I wish just like everybody else that they would change their setlist up a lot more drastically, but I'm still 100% no-contest going to see them if they come near.

They are really, really good to hear live. (They used to be my favorite before Ween came along.)

[Bachy]

For the love of God, please come back to Chicago.

[gerbil]

Do you guys still not get that they're not playing songs for the people that follow them from show to show or see them multiple times on the same tour?


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[Prettybrokenspiral]

Do you guys still not get that they're not playing songs for the people that follow them from show to show or see them multiple times on the same tour?

I don't think that's the general gripe here.

It's understandable that Tool need to play certain songs in their repertoire to keep casual fans happy. But how many casual fans are still just randomly attending Tool shows after 11 years without any new music. Every fan in attendance at a Tool show likely knows every Tool song. They only have about 40 actual songs over a 25+ year career; roughly 25 of those songs don't get played at their shows.

For a band who tours every year with no new material to a cult fanbase, playing the same 10 or 11 songs for only 70 minutes at the prices they're charging isn't going to work after awhile..

[halo eighteen]

For the love of God, please come back to Chicago.

For what it's worth, I saw a rumored date of June 8 at Allstate Arena.

[gerbil]

I don't think that's the general gripe here.

It's understandable that Tool need to play certain songs in their repertoire to keep casual fans happy. But how many casual fans are still just randomly attending Tool shows after 11 years without any new music. Every fan in attendance at a Tool show likely knows every Tool song. They only have about 40 actual songs over a 25+ year career; roughly 25 of those songs don't get played at their shows.

For a band who tours every year with no new material to a cult fanbase, playing the same 10 or 11 songs for only 70 minutes at the prices they're charging isn't going to work after awhile..

My wife has never seen Tool and she'd gladly buy tickets. She's been a fan for almost 18 years give or take. I mean, that's anecdotal but a bunch of my old friends on Facebook posted positively about trying to catch Tool if they come around.

I'm almost 31 so your mileage may vary but a lot of people I know are casual fans that have never seen them live.


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[gerbil]

Also, this is just a random observation, but Tool's setlists have always seemed to reflect where Maynard is at each time. He's not the the same guy that wrote those songs on Ænima. I don't think he wants to project a fake energy or feign interest in ideas he no longer feels. I mean, he's dealt with that pain. Time to move on.

I dunno. I just feel this way from being a fan for so long and reading his puff pi...sorry, book.


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[ManBurning]

These shows went on for around 2 hours (sometimes a little more iirc) with 25 unique songs being played. That's what a real band does for their fans shelling out alot of $ to see them at an arena show. And I really hope no one tries to use Third Eye's length as the reason why they play few songs. Add in that BS with Maynard hiding in the darkness and barely speaking to the crowd, another slap in the face. Arena shows from almost ALL artists, not just NIN, closing in on 2 hours is the norm, not 75 minutes.

When I said they put on a FANTASTIC live show, I wasn't talking about the length of the show, or how many songs they do or do not play, but more so the fact that they are tight as fuck when they do play. They're still a great band to see live. They don't phone it in. You want to shit on artists who play shitty show lengths? Look at our good friend Mr Manson. Guy can't even keep it together for an hour! The last MM show I saw was 55 mins long.... 50-fucking-5 minutes long!? Artist of his caliber should be AT LEAST be playing for an hour and a half, no less.

There are a few bands that play longer than an hour and a half, but not many. NIN, Foo Fighters, Metallica, The Cure. Those are the one's I can think of off the top of my head. But for the most part, a standard arena rock show is around the hour and a half mark, MAYBE hour and 45 minutes at most, but 2+ hours is rare. Don't get me wrong, I think they should be playing more songs a night. But when you think about how many albums and songs they have and compare that to something like NIN, NIN has twice as many, maybe even 3 times as many songs than TOOL has, so naturally they're going to be playing more. Plus, your average NIN song is between 3 and 5 minutes and There are at least 3-4 TOOL song's that get played each night that are over 10 minutes long. TOOL has less songs in their catalog over all. What do they have, 5 major releases? NIN is up to what, 10? If they played 25 songs a night A) It would be a 3 hour concert and B) They would have played their whole discography, lol.

My complaint isn't for the show length, it's the never ending same old, run of the mills setlist they have been playing for... well.... 10,000 days! You know they're the ultimate trolls here, right? naming their last band 10,000 days and literally not putting out any music in 11 years and basically touring on the same 10 songs for said 11 years. The sad thing is, very little fans are realizing this. They just keep eating out of the palms of their hands. I bet you any money Maynard and friends are literally laughing all the way to the bank after these short tour jaunts.

Here is how they prepare for a tour:
They go on setlist.fm and look at their last setlist and go, "OK guys, still remember how to play all these songs from 6 months ago? OK, great. Rehearsals are done."

Also, this is just a random observation, but Tool's setlists have always seemed to reflect where Maynard is at each time. He's not the the same guy that wrote those songs on Ænima. I don't think he wants to project a fake energy or feign interest in ideas he no longer feels. I mean, he's dealt with that pain. Time to move on.

If you're going to use this logic, then Trent wouldn't be singing half of his songs live still. A 50 yr old man family man singing about fucking like an animal, hurting himself today and being 26 years on his way to hell? yeah, he's passed those years... time to move on.

An artist can still sing their songs from their past. It doesn't matter if they are "in that head space or not" anymore. The trend these days is to play albums in full front to back anyway. If artists hated the reminder of how certain songs make them remember or feel from the past, they wouldn't be doing this.

Speaking of albums being played in full, this seems like a gimmick that TOOL would totally do to cash in. I'm surprised they haven't done this yet. I think it would be a new idea for TOOL to play a record in full. I'd pay to see Lateralus in full, that would be an amazing experience.

[theimage13]

Also, this is just a random observation, but Tool's setlists have always seemed to reflect where Maynard is at each time. He's not the the same guy that wrote those songs on Ænima. I don't think he wants to project a fake energy or feign interest in ideas he no longer feels. I mean, he's dealt with that pain. Time to move on.

To add to what someone else already said...back in '09, I saw NIN in/near Boston and Trent introduced La Mer by saying that he had written it in a time/place where he thought he was going to kill himself, but then that he was still here and going back to that place to get married. In subsequent shows, I've seen him still appear on the verge of tears during songs that you wouldn't think a person in such a positive place could visit.

Let me put it another way: I'm in a decent spot. Decent job, no debt, caring partner...but if I start telling a story about when my grandfather died, I get choked up to the point that sometimes I can't even speak. Artists are telling stories - sometimes, deeply personal stories. Being in a better place doesn't mean that revisiting the story doesn't bring up difficult emotions. And if it's a story that they're proud of, even if they're no longer "the same guy", they can still tell it.

Point being: IF Maynard is only doing the songs he feels are currently relevant, that's his prerogative and there's nothing wrong with that. But singing about a place you're not currently in doesn't automatically mean it's a "fake energy".

[Krazy]

I'm pretty sure Adam Jones addressed this during a VIP meet and greet: Maynard picks the songs, and more so on where he is vocally. Probably the reason why they don't play a whole lot of the older stuff- he can't scream his head off at this age and attempt to repeat it the three or four times a week. He already has a hard time with some of the songs they've been playing for years now.