Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[Leviathant]

Fuck Alex Jones.

This article makes it really easy to sympathize with the guy though (everything but the whole killing people thing, obviously). I can sympathize with his anger a hell of a lot more than the Bundy ranch stupidity, for example.

His life got fucked up after getting caught with weed... something multiple US Presidents did without getting caught and now continue the bullshit war on drugs. He was basically trapped in a shittier position in life and being held there thanks to some ridiculous laws. He was in the unlucky position that a LOT of people in this country are. Not a whole lot left to lose and a very clear source of their problems. Surround them with people salivating for "revolution" and it's not all that hard to imagine that things would tip this direction. It's not in any way justified, but it's just surprising that we don't see more of this going on with how prevalent that exact situation is.

I watched a couple of this dude's videos, and all I hear is whining and entitlement, with a little bit of Calvinball: Oh, I didn't break any laws, none of God's laws. I'm not saying I'm going to kill any police officers. I'm such a victim of the government. I'm not allowed near guns. Why won't the government give me money. ;_; ;_; ;_; Even my ten-years-in-jail neighbor, missing both his front teeth, probably as alcoholic as this dude, and surely dealt a worse hand (black male raised in an American inner city in the 60s), doesn't pull that entitlement whiney shit. (Although he of course went to jail for something he "didn't do" - he counters this immediately with, "I did other stuff I shoulda been in jail for though, so it all evens out") Certainly doesn't have any notion to put all his guns in a shopping cart, walk to the nearest Wal-Mart, and "start a revolution".

Having said that: The war on drugs is and always has been bullshit, it's fuel for a capitalist prison industrial complex, something I type knowing full well that Alex Jones runs a website called Prison Planet, and it makes me wince, that ignorant short-sighted fuck. Why was this shitstain selling pot in addition to his two jobs? Boil it down and you get greed and entitlement... which probably also have a larger hand in why he's stuck working two jobs. I saw a minimum wage hike when I was 16 and again when I was 17. The next one wouldn't happen until I was 27, and it wasn't really all that relevant to me by then. But man, when I was working my minimum wage jobs, I made that extra ten bucks a week work for me. It probably also helped that I wasn't living in Las Vegas.

[Sarah K]

http://q13fox.com/2014/06/10/breakin...#axzz34FjmORcI

Another day, another school shooting.

[Deepvoid]

They just confirmed that one student is dead along with the shooter.

[Leviathant]

And my numbed reaction is, "Holy shit, look at that Sheriff Bearcat!"

[Deepvoid]

Going back to the Las Vegas shooting.

The Walmart shopper who was killed had a CCW and actually pulled his weapon to confront the shooters. We all know how that ended.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle19082244/

[DigitalChaos]

We all know how that ended.

we do?
If by "we" you mean "people with an uninformed view of the impact of CCW on active shooter situations" then sure. Cause it would be pretty sill to "know" this would be the outcome after a kid with fucking pepper spray had just stopped a mass shooting just days earlier. Not to mention the multiple examples of a CCW stopping potential shootings.

[DigitalChaos]

jesus fucking christ
http://www.cnet.com/news/bulletproof...ld-schoolkids/
http://bodyguardblanket.com/pages/bg...dyguard02.html

[Deepvoid]

we do?
If by "we" you mean "people with an uninformed view of the impact of CCW on active shooter situations" then sure. Cause it would be pretty sill to "know" this would be the outcome after a kid with fucking pepper spray had just stopped a mass shooting just days earlier. Not to mention the multiple examples of a CCW stopping potential shootings.

I get what you're saying. I really do. I mean that kid with the pepper spray did stop the shooter who would have likely killed other people.

But my guts feeling still tells me it's a silly risk to take.
I'm gonna be harsh here but not only did this guy who was carrying failed to assess the situation properly but ultimately he put the lives of others in danger as well.
That accomplice could have shoot him multiple times which could have lead to stray bullets hitting other people. Who knows.

At the end of the day, he pulled a gun on an active shooter and he got shot by a second shooter he had no idea even existed.
I doubt must CCW are trained to handle an active shooter situation.

Yes, sometimes CCW will prevail but in the grand scheme of things, is CCW really part of the solution? I don't think so.

[DigitalChaos]

I'm typing this up for a second time after my fucking browser crashed as I hit the submit button

I get what you're saying. I really do. I mean that kid with the pepper spray did stop the shooter who would have likely killed other people.

But my guts feeling still tells me it's a silly risk to take.

Absolutely. This is the risk you take when playing hero. This applies to police too.

I'm gonna be harsh here but not only did this guy who was carrying failed to assess the situation properly but ultimately he put the lives of others in danger as well.
That accomplice could have shoot him multiple times which could have lead to stray bullets hitting other people. Who knows.

At the end of the day, he pulled a gun on an active shooter and he got shot by a second shooter he had no idea even existed.
I doubt must CCW are trained to handle an active shooter situation.

It's not uncommon for a CCW to be unprepared for a situation like this. Sadly, it's also the same problem for police. Most firearms training for police is shockingly minimal. Many many pages ago I cited data that shows that police actually have a WORSE rate of hitting an innocent than private gun owners in the same situation. This doesn't justify it, but it's something you need to consider when weighing everything.

I wouldn't be surprised if this person died because they weren't prepared. I would like more info though. It could also have something to do with the fact that there were two shooters instead of one, or these shooters being more skilled/trained. It could also come down to unlucky chance related to timing, location, positioning, etc.

I'm also curious why the shooters ended it so quickly and after their encounter with the CCW holder. They seemed to be carrying a lot more gear than they needed and it took the cops 15min to show. Did the CCW injure them? Scare them? That exact situation happened in a mall shooter situation (i think last year).

Yes, sometimes CCW will prevail but in the grand scheme of things, is CCW really part of the solution? I don't think so.

The answer depends heavily on what the bar is. If you are using the "even if this saves one life" metric that is prevalent in most gun-control justification, well yes.

Statistics are imperfect due to the impossibility of 100% proof of stopping something but most reasonable people tend to agree about the instances where a shooter was stopped from killing people. I've seen statistics ranging from 1.6% and 16% of mass shootings being stopped. That's not a trivial number, especially when you consider how many shootings were in gun-free zones and restrictive states that made private gun carry an impossibility. Also, that 1.6% number was from a shoddy MotherJones article that insists they were unable to find more than once instance.... which is funny because even Buzzfeed has lists.


Is open/concealed carry THE solution? No.
Is it part of the solution? Seems like it's certainly helping.

[Jinsai]

Guns everywhere in Georgia now!

That's right guys! Now you can take your weapons with you wherever you please in the good ol state of Georgia! Planning to stop off at Bed Bath and Beyond? Bring your gun! Going down to the bar to get shitfaced and yell about football? Bring your fucking gun! What could possibly go wrong? High school senior privilege: now when you turn 18, you can run out and buy guns and take them to school!

Bring all the guns, all the time, everywhere! Guns at baby showers! Guns at sporting events! Imagine how terrifying it would be to go to your next monster truck rally without a gun! You'd be the only person there without one!

[Deepvoid]

Which one was the good guy with a gun?

[DigitalChaos]

Guns everywhere in Georgia now!

If that's the news worthy example of why this is a bad idea, sign me up!

The places where gun control is in full retard mode would LOVE to have a day that is that uneventful. Hell, the Pride event in San Francisco resulted in one person shot multiple times and like 5 other weapons felonies.

[elevenism]

jesus, @DigitalChaos and @Jinsai , you cats STAY talking about guns!
i would read the whole thread but i don't have time right now.

this is one of the most important issues of our time, and i honestly cannot figure out my stance on it.
it's tricksy.

i can tell you that i've never fired a gun. i've taken bonnie and clyde style pics with old guns in the family estate house but never shot anything.

I guess the bottom line for me is that i don't want anyone to be hurt. ever.
i have no idea how to accomplish this, however.

where do you guys stand, on the bottom line?

[DigitalChaos]

jesus, @DigitalChaos and @Jinsai , you cats STAY talking about guns!
i would read the whole thread but i don't have time right now.

this is one of the most important issues of our time, and i honestly cannot figure out my stance on it.
it's tricksy.

i can tell you that i've never fired a gun. i've taken bonnie and clyde style pics with old guns in the family estate house but never shot anything.

I guess the bottom line for me is that i don't want anyone to be hurt. ever.
i have no idea how to accomplish this, however.

where do you guys stand, on the bottom line?

I was like you until a few years ago. I viewed guns as a symbol of what was ugly and undesirable about a large part of this country. That was my view for 3 decades of my life. And then I started to see a surge in something much uglier and started to study it: the gun control people. They have this utopian view that if guns should just disappear and the world will be better (I'd agree there). But then they simply use that view to go along with anything that claims to move toward that goal. They don't think about the outcome or even the existing environment they are trying to modify. It's like when a majority of this country was all about going all in on this "war on terror" that we could totally win and we must fight!

You can't keep weapons out of prison, but you can *totally* keep them out of the hands of people outside of prison? lol

I've watched every asinine attempt to apply gun control and they all have horrible flaws and a complete lack of understanding of what they are trying to modify. What is extremely ugly of the pro gun control people @Jinsai included) is their shameless use of fear and bad data (just like the Bush era war on terror). They freak the fuck out anytime some white kids get shot up and then use "gun deaths" statistics that belong mostly to the black kids in poor areas... the same kids they don't give a shit about. You see how much effort they put into gun control as some noble altruistic bullshit cause, but how much effort do they put into things that would put a massive dent into those "gun deaths" statistics like ending the fucking drug war.

When looking at this, you have to understand an underlying pathology of current progressives. It's this underlying and unquestioning belief that giving power to the government for redistribution/protection (much like Reagan's trickldown economics) is the most fair application of power. It stems from a lot of socialist philosophy that absolutely had it's time and place. For instance, Marx was all about redistributing the means of production away from the elite so that everyone owned it. However, look at what is starting to happen with current technology. It's just starting, but there is a trending transfer of power that strengthens the individual. Things like internet, 3D printing, bitcoin, etc. But, of course, current day progressives stopped analyzing their philosophy. More power to the government will always be good in their mind. Anything that strengthens the individual is just "capitalists trying to break apart the power of the group" ... I actually think that was a direct quote by @Jinsai . So of course giving the state a monopoly on guns in the name of eliminating guns from the face of the earth makes sense to them.

So now, I've gone from the "fuck guns" mentality to "fuck your half-assed rules" mentality. I live in one of the states that is leading the country in most oppressive gun laws. I've now built guns, like the progressive pants shitting AR-15 that is supposedly banned from my state. I do it all from incredibly common components that can never be regulated. Of course, I do it completely legally without having to use the "mandatory" background checks, waiting periods, gun registries, or any of the other bullshit. Local police have actually been highly entertained by it when I show them. It's mostly to prove a point. The "fuck your half-assed laws" point. Plus, criminals have a MUCH easier time obtaining these guns by simply not following the law.

[DigitalChaos]

Speaking of how big of an impact The War on Drugs has on violence in this country....
(not that gun control people give a shit about the people impacted by this unless it's to shamelessly use their body count to pad the drama around white kids getting shot)

[elevenism]

Well goddamn, @DigitalChaos , you wrote me a fucking essay! i look forward to reading it in a few minutes

[DigitalChaos]

Well goddamn, @DigitalChaos , you wrote me a fucking essay! i look forward to reading it in a few minutes

That's the condensed version!
Hell, I even skipped over the punchline about my Marx bit:
Progressives are so deeply unaware of what they have become. They are now desperately trying to regulate the recent tech that empowers individuals (3d printing, bitcoin, etc). Luckily, they are struggling to get any traction there due to the decentralized nature of it all. That is NOT what Marx was referring to when he talked about "the struggles." :P

[elevenism]

That's the condensed version!
Hell, I even skipped over the punchline about my Marx bit:
Progressives are so deeply unaware of what they have become. They are now desperately trying to regulate the recent tech that empowers individuals (3d printing, bitcoin, etc). Luckily, they are struggling to get any traction there due to the decentralized nature of it all. That is NOT what Marx was referring to when he talked about "the struggles." :P

OhHHHHHhh goddamn, slow down. I am not in think mode. okay, let me read all this shit and digest it

[elevenism]

OKAY, @DigitalChaos .
good words, good points. And i like your style.

A few thoughts...
i'm from texas. Everybody has guns here.
The government is NOT TAKING OUR GUNS.
If the government tried taking guns away from texas, there would be a goddamn bloody revolution, and we would divide into five states, per our constitution. i don't know how many texans you know, but i can GUARANTEE this.

Now here's a trickier thought. The gun control thing is often used as a smokescreen to cover up more important issues.
Hell, at its most basic level, the gun control fear mongering, as in this n**** is coming to take our guns, is ALL many backwoods redneck texans know about "politickin." So they vote for right wing bullshit that is NOT IN THEIR BEST INTEREST.
And, of course, it is used to cover up this issue or that...hey, we might take your guns! (pay no attention to the fact that we are slashing school budgets and forcing ten year old girls to get fucking HPV vaccines in this nasty deal we made with the pharma company)
Get your guns! Fuck! And by all means, continue voting for the moron on the right. He wants you to have guns, for fuck sake!

It is my opinion that gun control is a fucking moot point. There will never, ever, ever be any gun control...not in this state anyway.

I WILL tell you what kind of ideas i would like to see in action...i would like guns kept out of the hands of mentally unstable fuckers (like myself, with a state certified history of emotional disorders.) I don't need a fucking gun.
Keep guns out of the hands of people who have done violent crimes in the past (again, like me, lolz. i need no gun.)
I think these background checks would help some.
But people will get guns anyway.

Just so you know, i'm your neighborhood friendly left wing commie pinko bleeding heart liberal.
BUT...i think the whole fucking thing is a lot like pro wrestling at this point.

9/11? I'm not even gonna touch that one.
Candidates with the SAME AGENDAS except when it comes to bullshit (unsolvable and controversial) issues, like gay rights, abortion, and fucking GUNS?
An unwinnable war with and endless supply of shadow enemies that all too often, don't fucking EXIST? A war that keeps is right where they want us...scared, like sheep?
Corporations are people?
We are not a democracy, we are a corporate oligarchy at this point. THis country runs on fucking greed, and nothing will stop it but fucking Kingdome Come, which, i'm not entirely sure i believe in.

I feel that a government's primary duty is to defend and take care of the HEALTH of it's citizens.

Okay, i'll get off my soapbox.

How close do you live? Will you take me to shoot the guns sometime?

[DigitalChaos]

A few thoughts...

There were plenty of national gun laws that happened. Laws that you would currently think impossible. Political environments will constantly shift. I'm not one of the idiots who freaks the fuck out every time the NRA tells people to panic. Hell, I was making fun of them during Obama's first term because the only thing he did to gun rights was expand them.

You live in TX, I live in CA (San Francisco bay area). You know, home of Feinstein. Home of Leland Yee, the anti-gun, anti-3d-printer, anti-video games, anti-everything dipshit who was recently caught gun running tons of weapons that are even illegal at the federal level. That's exactly why I enjoy making a mockery of the laws they spend so much time on. I follow their laws closer than they ever thought possible

I think the limitations you talk about are quite reasonable. If only the anti-gun people had your perspective. Instead, they go toward absolute prohibitionary laws that actually inhibit your desires. If they magically changed their view from growing the government monopoly on force toward your view of actually helping the people.... I'd still worry that they would be too stupid to implement a decent solution. For example, the national background check system we already have (NICS), has been insanely easy to bypass since it was created in 1998. A simple fake ID that doesn't match the name of someone on the prohibited list is all you need. They have known this forever. The flaw has been public. They have done nothing to fix it!

The only thing I would disagree with you on is background checks. I think they sound great to everyone on the surface, but they pretty much require a national gun registry. That's something I disagree with because of the potential for abuse. You only need to look toward NY and CT for those abuses. Plus, good luck getting compliance... NY and CT is having massive issues getting people to comply with their registry mandates.


I'm pretty far from you, but it would be hilarious for a San Francisco area libertarian to take a Texan liberal out shooting. Libertarian has become a very polluted term over the last 6 years and a lot are adopting the "Classical Liberal" tag as to not immediately shut down someone's mind. This is currently my favorite descriptor of where I land: http://freebeacon.com/culture/guns-w...s-at-porcfest/

[Omega]

Guns are awesome, though not everyone that uses them are.

[Satyr]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...707-story.html

http://nypost.com/2014/07/06/holiday...-hours-in-nyc/

If anyone seriously wants to be progressive on the gun violence problem you need to look at poverty and mental health.

If any of our entitlement programs fail in a major way just wait to see how long it takes for riots.

[DigitalChaos]

Chicago is ordered to pay the NRA $1mil.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ra-legal-fees/

Chicago also had to pay the NRA $600k back when SCOTUS ruled that the US Constitution actually does apply to the states. Chicago seems to be a special kind of stupid.

[elevenism]

I'm pretty far from you, but it would be hilarious for a San Francisco area libertarian to take a Texan liberal out shooting. Libertarian has become a very polluted term over the last 6 years and a lot are adopting the "Classical Liberal" tag as to not immediately shut down someone's mind. This is currently my favorite descriptor of where I land: http://freebeacon.com/culture/guns-w...s-at-porcfest/

Dude, i can feel your link. I think it blows that the ultra right wing stole the word libertarian.

And yes, the gun shooting would be awesome. In fact, it sounds like it could be turned into a documentary, with all of our viewpoints as the actual meat of the thing.

[Deepvoid]

Here's good one!

84-year old shot 49-year old son, 11-year old grandson returned fire with a shotgun and killed grandpa.

[Sarah K]

A 9 year old kid shot his 4 year old brother.

The mother and her boyfriend aren't getting charged with anything... The fucking 9 year old has been taken into custody and will be charged.

The adults *are* getting charged now. The boyfriend just plead to negligent child abuse resulting in serious injury. Down from negligent child abuse resulting in death.

The mother is also being charged with negligent child abuse resulting in death, but her trial isn't until September.

The kid is still being charged with manslaughter. :/

http://journalstar.com/ap/state/man-...eec73461e.html

[Space Suicide]

The adults *are* getting charged now. The boyfriend just plead to negligent child abuse resulting in serious injury. Down from negligent child abuse resulting in death.

The mother is also being charged with negligent child abuse resulting in death, but her trial isn't until September.

The kid is still being charged with manslaughter. :/

http://journalstar.com/ap/state/man-...eec73461e.html

I don't condone the parents' lack of involvement but a 9 year old should know better. He shouldn't be allowed a free "get out of jail card since you're a minor and have no concept of right and wrong" treatment for this. He still killed his brother. There should be consequences.

[DigitalChaos]

Now that they are all in the legal system, I have faith that a jury will do the right thing. It's hard to make a judgement on what should/shouldn't happen with only news stories. One only needs to look toward the Zimmerman/Trayvon case to see how fucked up the public's understandings of complex legal situations really is.


That said, children really complicate the clear boundary of responsibility that we assign to adults. It's really hard to establish a one-size-fits all legal approach to children. It's also silly to pretend that the day you turn 18 the blurred line is magically clear (aka the one-size-fits-all law).

[Satyr]

The adults *are* getting charged now. The boyfriend just plead to negligent child abuse resulting in serious injury. Down from negligent child abuse resulting in death.

The mother is also being charged with negligent child abuse resulting in death, but her trial isn't until September.

The kid is still being charged with manslaughter. :/

http://journalstar.com/ap/state/man-...eec73461e.html

I'm gonna speculate that poverty and psychiatric problems played no role in these and it was simply that guns were available and used....The most disturbing thing I can find is that there are no photos of any of the victims or accused.

[Deepvoid]

Another family tragedy. This time, a man shot and killed 4 kids and 2 adults in Houston, TX.