Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[allegro]

There's a lot of news stories that don't make a blip on the radar here, for whatever reason, but to infer that it's due to a political leaning with the board is intentionally dishonest. I didn't see people here discussing Boehner's resignation. Russia just accidentally launched cruise missiles into Iran, and nobody on here is talking about it. In fact, I haven't seen anyone on here talking about the "Nuclear Deal" with Iran at all. I think I might have caught a brief mention about the Syrian refugees somewhere on this board. Mexican crime lord El Chapo put out a 100,000,000 dollar bounty on Donald Trump, and we're not even talking about that! We didn't even have a discussion about the financial meltdown in Greece. We didn't even get into the fact that the US and Cuba are talking again for the first time since 1961, or that we're opening up embassies in Havana. In other news, they just revealed that the death toll from the stampede near Mecca is counting nearly 1500 people dead, but there's no discussion on this board about it.

Actually, all of those things (except Russia and the missiles into Iran) were mentioned, a few were discussed in depth, and a few were poked fun of (El Chapo and Trump, Boehner and the Pope possibly influencing his resignation). Not to pick nits or digress, but it's true. And I think we have barely mentioned Carson in the Presidential race thread because he is so inconsequential and because we are having too much fun talking about Trump. Ben Carson is constantly sticking his foot into his mouth. He's the guy who said prison makes you gay.

Meanwhile, yesterday in Chicago.

[DigitalChaos]

Plus allegro posted about MSF only moments later. So, the dumb comment is of no value... which is about where it was at when I first posted it. I have no problem admitting that. The primary point is about our culture of violence that goes way beyond guns. Selective pacifism (from the majority of the populace) ignores the root of our violent culture.

[Dr Channard]

If people want the right to keep and bear arms as per the 2^nd amendment, fine. Make it the law that the arms model has to be of a late 1700’s design, around the time the 2^nd amendment was adopted, as surly that amendment was written about the arms of its own times (flintlock muskets and such). Arms that, (1) shoot a single shot at a time, (2) have comparatively limited range and accuracy, (3) after the initial shot may take several minutes to reload, (4) and if you are struck by the shot you have as great a chance of dying from infection because the surgeon removing the pellet didn’t properly sterilize his tools first.

There, problem bettered.

[DigitalChaos]

. Make it the law that the arms model has to be of a late 1700’s design, around the time the 2^nd amendment was adopted, as surly that amendment was written about the arms of its own times (flintlock muskets and such).

1- This an unbelievably ignorant view of the constitution. It's like saying the first amendment doesn't apply to any form of communication that didn't exist when the amendment was created. Luckily, we have people in charge of parsing the constitution that understand this.

2- I'd love this because I actually have an understanding of gun history from then. I could invalidate a huge amount of modern gun control by simply pointing to the 1780 era rifle that Jefferson gave to Lewis and Clark. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

rapid fire, high capacity, nearly silent, could easily put a hole in a 1" pine board at 100yrds.

20rd rapid load magazine - goodbye magazine capacity laws!

Nearly silent operation - goodbye suppressor bans!

No muzzle flash - good by flash hider bans!

[Khrz]

The fact that you took this post so seriously says it all to me...

[Dr Channard]

1- This an unbelievably ignorant view of the constitution. It's like saying the first amendment doesn't apply to any form of communication that didn't exist when the amendment was created. Luckily, we have people in charge of parsing the constitution that understand this.

Whoa... whoa. No need to go all Yosemite Sam on me. I’ll admit, some of my ideas may not be the best...

2- I'd love this because I actually have an understanding of gun history from then. I could invalidate a huge amount of modern gun control by simply pointing to the 1780 era rifle that Jefferson gave to Lewis and Clark.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

rapid fire, high capacity, nearly silent, could easily put a hole in a 1" pine board at 100yrds.

20rd rapid load magazine - goodbye magazine capacity laws!

Nearly silent operation - goodbye suppressor bans!

No muzzle flash - good by flash hider bans!

In all seriousness, if I had the choice between the two, I’d much rather some nutjob point an air rifle that he has to pump by hand at me, over him taking aim at me with almost any modern rifle. And hey, that pump time might make Ben Carson’s suggestion of mobbing the shooter more within reason.

[DigitalChaos]

Good luck with that. The hand pumping is done well in advance. Much like hand loading rounds into a magazine on an AR-15.


Choosing to be shot by a .46cal instead of a .223cal .... lol #JustGunControlThings

[Dr Channard]

Good luck with that. The hand pumping is done well in advance. Much like hand loading rounds into a magazine on an AR-15.


Choosing to be shot by a .46cal instead of a .223cal .... lol #JustGunControlThings

Your reasoning is really winning me over. You know, you're helping me to see that guns of any kind, even those from the 1700’s are just bad fucking news.

[DigitalChaos]

Your reasoning is really winning me over. You know, you're helping me to see that guns of any kind, even those from the 1700’s are just bad fucking news.

#Just2ndAmendmentThings

Hey, at least your commentary is fun! I like you.

[Deepvoid]

[Timinator]

"Much has been said about gun control in the wake of yet another mass shooting in the US, but the heated and divided nature of the debate means that a fundamental question is often overlooked; why is it people actively want guns in the first place?"

[Deepvoid]

See ... this is what happens in a country where it's harder to get guns.

Suspect dead after Canada hammer attack injures 10 people.

People get hammers. How many people died? 0. That's none. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.
Now let's rewind that tape and give this idiot a gun. Wonder if the end result would be the same. Damn, that's the tough on. Pretty sure we'd have a couple dead bodies, at the very least.

Back to your regular programming ..

[allegro]

See ... this is what happens in a country where it's harder to get guns.

Suspect dead after Canada hammer attack injures 10 people.

People get hammers. How many people died? 0. That's none. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Nada.
Now let's rewind that tape and give this idiot a gun. Wonder if the end result would be the same. Damn, that's the tough on. Pretty sure we'd have a couple dead bodies, at the very least.

Back to your regular programming ..

Here is an interesting article about guns in Canada, written shortly after the Vancouver shooting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/s...shock-america/

The U.S. owns 270 Million guns as of 2011?? Holy shit.

[Deepvoid]

Here is an interesting article about guns in Canada, written shortly after the Vancouver shooting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/s...shock-america/

The U.S. owns 270 Million guns as of 2011?? Holy shit.

No one is immune to violence. That's a given. However, I am a firm believer that measures can be taken to curb down numbers of victims.
As all of you pointed in the past, the main difference is this "Canada also has no law or constitutional provision guaranteeing the right to bear arms".
We build our laws and regulations around the fact that you do not have the right to bear arms. Our culture is rooted around this foundation.

[allegro]

No one is immune to violence. That's a given. However, I am a firm believer that measures can be taken to curb down numbers of victims.
As all of you pointed in the past, the main difference is this "Canada also has no law or constitutional provision guaranteeing the right to bear arms".
We build our laws and regulations around the fact that you do not have the right to bear arms. Our culture is rooted around this foundation.

But, with 251 million guns already owned as of 2011 in the U.S., it's kinda too late. And, like that article pointed out, Canadians trust the government to take care of them, and Americans trust themselves and not the government? Maybe your culture is really rooted around that? We don't trust our government, at all. We don't trust anybody, actually. Our entire culture is still the Wild Wild West, we've never really shed that. Also, we still have to include drug sales, gang wars, etc. into all of the drug deaths in the U.S. which greatly affect the numbers. It's a "war," really.

By the way, that Home Depot woman was charged.

[Khrz]

Maybe your culture is really rooted around that? We don't trust our government, at all. We don't trust anybody, actually.

I'd say it's a bit more complicated than this.

The French don't trust their government either, they just consider it like a bunch of employees who'll be overthrown and kicked out if they fuck up too much and try to be smart with them (the regular strikes, for which we're well-known, are a constant reminder of this).
You* (The citizens of the USA, well some of them) seem to have turned that distrust into a power struggle. That's where the Far West mentality comes into play. It's not only that you distrust your government, but that you're ready to shoot them dead if they step on your lawn.

* I use "you" as a very broad generalization tool, subject to all the inaccuracies of my perception as a European, obviously.

[Deepvoid]

By the way, that Home Depot woman was charged.

Yes, I saw that yesterday! Misdemeanor subject to a fine or 90 days in jail.
In other words, she'll get a ticket for unloading her gun in public.
I'm assuming she can keep her CC permit? There's no mention of this in the article.

[allegro]

Yes, I saw that yesterday! Misdemeanor subject to a fine or 90 days in jail.
In other words, she'll get a ticket for unloading her gun in public.
I'm assuming she can keep her CC permit? There's no mention of this in the article.

I don't know that she "unloaded" her gun but she fired a few shots and she didn't actually hit anybody but she gets more than a "ticket." Don't know about the CC permit.

[allegro]

It's not only that you distrust your government, but that you're ready to shoot them dead if they step on your lawn.

We don't actually shoot our government; we don't trust our government to protect us against bad people. Our government employees (police) shoot us on our lawns, in our houses, in our cars, etc.

Meanwhile, bad people in our government are taking money from bad people for guns, drugs, etc.

We're like a giant version of The Godfather.

[Khrz]

We don't actually shoot our government; we don't trust our government to protect us against bad people. Our government employees (police) shoot us on our lawns, in our houses, in our cars, etc.

I never said you did, I said you were ready for it.

Which is a huge generalization, I'm aware of that. But I've seen quite a few gun proponents who were defending their right to bear arms to defend themselves against that pesky government, using guns if need be.

[allegro]

But I've seen quite a few gun proponents who were defending their right to bear arms to defend themselves against that pesky government, using guns if need be.

Well, right, that's from the Civil War (North vs. South).

This whole idea that the 2nd Amendment contains language that includes "against enemies foreign and domestic" (which is actually contained in the Oath of Allegience) is false because lots of Americans haven't bothered reading the 2nd Amendment because they have this weird idea that the 2nd Amendment is huge when, in fact, the 2nd Amendment is one sentence containing only 27 words:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The fact that there are so many Americans out there (particularly in the South) so afraid that Obama (a negro from the North) is gonna come and "TAKE THEIR GUNS" is so fucking stupid, it's alarming. NO, NOBODY CAN COME TAKE YOUR FUCKING GUNS, YOU IDIOTS. Not if you own them LEGALLY, RIGHT NOW. If, later, your assault weapon is banned, YOU STILL OWN IT LEGALLY, because it is grandfathered. NOBODY CAN CONDUCT AN ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE. A WARRANT WITH A JUDGE SIGNING IT IS STILL FUCKING REQUIRED, AND NOBODY IS GOING TO ISSUE A FUCKING WARRANT TO TAKE YOUR GUN (UNLESS OF COURSE YOU ARE A TERRORIST OR DID SOMETHING REALLY FUCKING STUPID). AND NOBODY IS GOING TO BREAK DOWN YOUR DOOR AND TAKE YOUR FUCKING GUN, EITHER. SO GET A FUCKING BRAIN.

And, no, Hitler didn't take everybody's guns. That's complete bullshit.

[Dra508]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The fact that there are so many Americans out there (particularly in the South) so afraid that Obama (a negro from the North) is gonna come and "TAKE THEIR GUNS" is so fucking stupid, it's alarming. NO, NOBODY CAN COME TAKE YOUR FUCKING GUNS, YOU IDIOTS. Not if you own them LEGALLY, RIGHT NOW. If, later, your assault weapon is banned, YOU STILL OWN IT LEGALLY, because it is grandfathered. NOBODY CAN CONDUCT AN ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE. A WARRANT WITH A JUDGE SIGNING IT IS STILL FUCKING REQUIRED, AND NOBODY IS GOING TO ISSUE A FUCKING WARRANT TO TAKE YOUR GUN (UNLESS OF COURSE YOU ARE A TERRORIST OR DID SOMETHING REALLY FUCKING STUPID). AND NOBODY IS GOING TO BREAK DOWN YOUR DOOR AND TAKE YOUR FUCKING GUN, EITHER. SO GET A FUCKING BRAIN.

Yet, plenty of people do believe this. I know I've posted this here before, but the day after Obama was first elected, I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma having lunch with a customer. A couple of men at the table were going on about getting all the ammo they could get their hands on because there was going to be a shortage now that Obama was gonna be president. Oy.


I don't see anything changing, I mean, zero. As long as gun lobby is the gun lobby and The Congress is the way it is - deeply divided. I don't see that changing anytime soon either.

[allegro]

Yet, plenty of people do believe this. I know I've posted this here before, but the day after Obama was first elected, I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma having lunch with a customer. A couple of men at the table were going on about getting all the ammo they could get their hands on because there was going to be a shortage now that Obama was gonna be president. Oy.


I don't see anything changing, I mean, zero. As long as gun lobby is the gun lobby and The Congress is the way it is - deeply divided. I don't see that changing anytime soon either.

It's also the "North vs. South" thing that just never seems to go away. 150 years later, it's still there. Or the Federal Government is going to be completely TAKEN OVER by Crazy Liberals and Gay People who will start kiling Christians and the South is going to go all Confederate again and we'll have another Civil War.

[DigitalChaos]

It's also the "North vs. South" thing that just never seems to go away. 150 years later, it's still there. Or the Federal Government is going to be completely TAKEN OVER by Crazy Liberals and Gay People who will start kiling Christians and the South is going to go all Confederate again and we'll have another Civil War.

It's also the "minorities are the most in need of protection from mob rule and guns serve them well." This isn't true in all cases, of course, but it applies to some. Much of the modern gun control platform came from GOP's Personal Jesus, then governor of California, Ronald Reagan. The whites were afraid of the Black Panthers carrying guns as a way to equalize the power inequality between blacks and the racist cops. Thus, they wanted to stop the Black Panthers from doing that.

Many on the left act like this kind of stupid bigotry could never come back. Meanwhile, we have Ferguson. We have Trump.

[allegro]

It's also the "minorities are the most in need of protection from mob rule and guns serve them well." This isn't true in all cases, of course, but it applies to some. Much of the modern gun control platform came from GOP's Personal Jesus, then governor of California, Ronald Reagan. The whites were afraid of the Black Panthers carrying guns as a way to equalize the power inequality between blacks and the racist cops. Thus, they wanted to stop the Black Panthers from doing that.

Many on the left act like this kind of stupid bigotry could never come back. Meanwhile, we have Ferguson. We have Trump.

The Black Panthers and Reagan? The Black Panthers dissolved in 1982. That's hardly modern.

The modern problem of fear of gun control is conservative white people afraid of a black dude in the White House taking their guns.

When the original Federal assault weapons ban in 1994 was enacted, an Arkansas dude was President and a Texas dude sponsored the Bill.

[emptydesk]

I truly appreciate being called racist and classist on the last page, DigitalChaos.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/w...asis-this-year

[DigitalChaos]

The Black Panthers and Reagan? The Black Panthers dissolved in 1982. That's hardly modern.

The modern problem of fear of gun control is conservative white people afraid of a black dude in the White House taking their guns.

When the original Federal assault weapons ban in 1994 was enacted, an Arkansas dude was President and a Texas dude sponsored the Bill.

We've had a steady stream of reactionary gun control since then. The only other time we saw that kind of thing was in the 1920's and 1930's. It was mostly in response to the crime that came out of prohibition. Back then, it was the NRA helping make those laws.

After prohibition was repealed, the heavy desire for reactionary legislation was diminished. It didn't pick back up again until the drug war started coming to life and the civil rights movement was in full swing. Imagine that!



alternet did a really interesting article about some of the extremely surprising gun control that the NRA supported (sales records, waiting periods, carry permits, etc) and then the "paranoid libertarian's hostile takeover" of the NRA. http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_...d_gun_control/

[Dra508]

The modern problem of fear of gun control is conservative white people afraid of a black dude in the White House taking their guns.
.

Didn't I just say that? I IS AN EYE WITNESS.

So we have a lot of guns in America. What's the increase since prohibition?


/too lazy to google.

[allegro]

Didn't I just say that? I IS AN EYE WITNESS.

yes but was that racism or ZOMG THE LIBERALS HAVE TAKEN CONTROL?!?!?!?

Prohibition = Al Capone, Mob activity, underground sale of booze = lots and lots of guns

[Dra508]

yes but was that racism or ZOMG THE LIBERALS HAVE TAKEN CONTROL?!?!?!?

Good question. Aren't all minorities' liberals? :P