Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[allegro]

Oh my God. Does there HAVE to be a fucking conspiracy theory for EVERYTHING?? It's a shame that so MANY Americans so god damned ignorant.

[onthewall2983]

[DigitalChaos]

Conspiratards are another example of the tendency of simple minds trying to apply simple answers to their problems. Calling them "conspiracy theorists" is giving them way too much credit. There is no theory in what they do.

[DigitalChaos]

You can't really further restrict automatic weapons when they are already banned outright, at least for those that honor the law. Congrats to Republicans for concentrating on the most important issue, mental health, all the Democrats did was give criminals more power.

I am hating myself for liking a post that praises republicans but you are right. Maybe we need to make it illegal to be a criminal!

In other news, I love the internet. Download your high capacity AR magazine today!

[october_midnight]

I love the internet too, right after the moronic shitbags in the NRA posted their new video calling Obama a 'hypocrite' and that 'his children have protection...shouldn't yours?' (YouTube search it...it's batshit hilarious), the interwebz quickly retorted:

[DigitalChaos]

Meh, if a weapon can defend his kids why can't it defend other people's kids? This is a sane question to ask. The chance of needing protection is irrelevant when you have Obama dealing with the fringe of statistics with the "even if it saves just one life"

NRA is a bunch of idiots but still...

[DigitalChaos]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90F0NU20130116

His plan calls on Congress to renew a prohibition on assault weapons sales that expired in 2004,

what a complete failure that was, let's renew it!

require criminal background checks on all gun purchases,

sure, but there is the whole problem with half the states not reporting the needed info to NICS. Thus this is also a failure.

including closing a loophole for gun show sales,

Let's see the details. The "loophole" is that of private gun sale/trade/gifting. I'm doubtful that an effective proposal exists for this.

and pass a new federal gun trafficking law - long sought by big-city mayors to keep out-of-state guns off their streets.

again, let's see the details.

He also announced 23 steps he intends to take immediately without congressional approval.

1. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal agencies to make relevant data available to the federal background check system.
2. Address unnecessary legal barriers, particularly relating to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, that may prevent states from making information available to the background check system.
3. Improve incentives for states to share information with the background check system.
4. Direct the Attorney General to review categories of individuals prohibited from having a gun to make sure dangerous people are not slipping through the cracks.
5. Propose rulemaking to give law enforcement the ability to run a full background check on an individual before returning a seized gun.
6. Publish a letter from ATF to federally licensed gun dealers providing guidance on how to run background checks for private sellers.
7. Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.
8. Review safety standards for gun locks and gun safes (Consumer Product Safety Commission).
9. Issue a Presidential Memorandum to require federal law enforcement to trace guns recovered in criminal investigations.
10. Release a DOJ report analyzing information on lost and stolen guns and make it widely available to law enforcement.
11. Nominate an ATF director.
12. Provide law enforcement, first responders, and school officials with proper training for active shooter situations.
13. Maximize enforcement efforts to prevent gun violence and prosecute gun crime.
14. Issue a Presidential Memorandum directing the Centers for Disease Control to research the causes and prevention of gun violence.
15. Direct the Attorney General to issue a report on the availability and most effective use of new gun safety technologies and challenge the private sector to develop innovative technologies
16. Clarify that the Affordable Care Act does not prohibit doctors asking their patients about guns in their homes.
17. Release a letter to health care providers clarifying that no federal law prohibits them from reporting threats of violence to law enforcement authorities.
18. Provide incentives for schools to hire school resource officers.
19. Develop model emergency response plans for schools, houses of worship and institutions of higher education.
20. Release a letter to state health officials clarifying the scope of mental health services that Medicaid plans must cover.
21. Finalize regulations clarifying essential health benefits and parity requirements within ACA exchanges.
22. Commit to finalizing mental health parity regulations.
23. Launch a national dialogue led by Secretaries Sebelius and Duncan on mental health.

hey some good stuff here! (ignoring the financial requirements for all of it) #3 tells me that it will still be at the state's discretion to submit records. Thus, the federal background check system is going to remain horribly broken. #20, 21, 22, 23 is very dangerous. I hope he completely separates this from any gun control. Else, this is going to be "Obama's socialized medicine ontop of 2nd Amendment destruction" to the GOP. If these are separate from the gun control, it will be much easier to phrase it as an answer to the GOP's request to fix mental health care.

[DigitalChaos]

Also, I still see most of the prior mass shootings happening under these changes. What happens in a year or two when all this stuff is law and another few mass shootings occur? OMG BAN THE GUNS all over again?

[darktemplar007]

What the fuck is this bullshit.

Apparently some crazy people are trying to call this all an elaborate hoax.

[allegro]

Is this true, though?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2347096.html

Seems like you'd need the whole building surrounded by armed guards, since it wouldn't be too difficult for a killer to study a single guard's m.o. Or, sneak up and kill him, first, then do his killing spree.

This country needs to face the fact that while we'd love to keep our kids safe, we can't. It's impossible, short of home schooling them and hiring your own armed guard(s). But then the kid walks to the park and gets mowed down by a drunk driver.

Comparing the president's kids (president's kids have always gotten armed security) to all kids in school is kinda dumb, though. I still haven't seen anybody proposing how to defend the ghetto kids killed in Chicago every week. Oh, wait, Obama said "hire more police." Okay, where are we gonna get that cash? At this point, Chicago needs armored cars and mob squads. We've already contemplated calling in the National Guard for help. That didn't go over very well, though.

[allegro]

I think the 23 Executive Orders have good intentions but nothing is gonna come of them. Because the government can't get its shit together to create a big database. Hell, the FBI couldn't figure out how the Internet worked until it had been around for 20 years.

The "IMPEECH MUSLIM MARXIST PIG OBAMA FOR HURTIN OUR CONSTITOOTIONAL RIGHTS" idiots on Twitter slay me. Fuck the fact that Obama's killing kids in other countries with drones, signs wire tapping bills like birthday cards, etc. Nahhhh, we only care about our guns! Fuck all those other rights that have been violated by Bush and Obama. Patriot Act? Does that have something to do with guns? Yeeeeee haaaaaaawww. Sometime this country just looks like a bunch of fucking stupid hillbillies.

[DigitalChaos]

Oh I completely agree with you on the armed guards thing. There are many situations where a guard failed to stop a shooting. It's not the "answer" that everyone is looking for. I just thought it was lame in how people were trivializing the NRA's question (even though it was done poorly) while contradicting themselves at the same time. Either we are looking at saving a single life or we are looking at something that makes a moderate impact when measured at a national level.

Mass shootings are very rare. Our kids are safer inside school than they are at home. The whole gun control debate in the name of fixing mass shootings is ridiculous.

[DigitalChaos]

I think the 23 Executive Orders have good intentions but nothing is gonna come of them. Because the government can't get its shit together to create a big database. Hell, the FBI couldn't figure out how the Internet worked until it had been around for 20 years.

The "IMPEECH MUSLIM MARXIST PIG OBAMA FOR HURTIN OUR CONSTITOOTIONAL RIGHTS" idiots on Twitter slay me. Fuck the fact that Obama's killing kids in other countries with drones, signs wire tapping bills like birthday cards, etc. Nahhhh, we only care about our guns! Fuck all those other rights that have been violated by Bush and Obama. Patriot Act? Does that have something to do with guns? Yeeeeee haaaaaaawww. Sometime this country just looks like a bunch of fucking stupid hillbillies.

The hypocrisy with all the children killed by drones really pisses me off. Every time I hear that "save children's life" line... ugh. If Bush were president the left would be going apeshit about it. In fact, they would probably be going nuts if Bush was trying to revoke guns. Many were convinced that he was close to a tyrannical takeover. It's really lame that we all seem to be ignoring the war machine now that Obama is in office. At least the right-wing is consistently a bunch of assholes on that topic.

[Jinsai]

Oh my God. Does there HAVE to be a fucking conspiracy theory for EVERYTHING?? It's a shame that so MANY Americans so god damned ignorant.

Oh man... I got into a debate with a casual acquaintance on facebook about this kind of thing. Apparently, there's a shot in the last Batman movie where Gary Oldman points to a map, and the word "Sandy Hook" is visible for a fraction of a second. By not concluding that this is evidence of a grand illuminati plot, I'm therefore some kind of brainwashed slave to the puppet masters or some shit. As soon as I realized that she wasn't joking and was actually completely serious, I got kind of disturbed and realized there was no point in trying to rationally debate anything with her.

[Deepvoid]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/gor...a-attac,30860/

Somewhat gun related...

[DigitalChaos]

I actually forced myself to watch the Sandy Hook conspiracy video. Most of it is filled with completely fallacious thinking (much like a lot of the gun control people). The only points that cause you to pause are the parents who look a lot like they are acting for the media (which means nothing), the facebook donation pages that were supposedly setup before/during the shooting (probably an easy explanation but I don't want to spend the time), and the rifle being pulled from the back of a car that was supposed to have been used in the shooting. Even though it sort of looked like they were racking the bolt on a rifle, it was blurry as fuck and had the shape of a shotgun. A shotgun is what they said they found.

The conclusion was that this is staged to push forward gun legislation... uh... what?! Shootings like this happen fairly frequently. You just need to wait for the next one, no need to create an elaborately staged event that everyone in the nation will see. Our government is incapable of some of the more basic functions. Pulling off something like this (or 9/11 which they tied into) would be impossible without people involved/near talking.

[richardp]

The amount of idiots on my Facebook timeline that have posted the conspiracy theory video and are completely buying into it is fucking ASTOUNDING.

[DigitalChaos]

It's pretty amazing that even with the proposed national assault weapon ban on top of the assault weapon ban in California... I can still legally get an AR-15 without a serial number, without any sort of registration, and without any sort of background check. Completely off the books and completely legal.

Great job guys! I recall someone stating that it was silly to expect that the gun control crowd should have decent knowledge on both firearms and law...

[Aladdinsanity]

I actually forced myself to watch the Sandy Hook conspiracy video. Most of it is filled with completely fallacious thinking (much like a lot of the gun control people).

Seriously?

[DigitalChaos]

Seriously?

Yup.
They have an agenda. They build the "proof" around a preexisting conclusion. Lots of data cherry picking and lots of not understanding causation from correlation.

Send this video, below, to some of the conspiritards and see how they respond. If you can take an impartial stance, you'll see the parallels in logic used between them and the bulk of the anti-gun/gun control arguments. The pattern becomes extremely obvious the more you see it. You see it in those who are anti-gay marriage, fearing of muslims, wanting to censor the internet, claim there is a "war on Xmas", etc

[Jinsai]

I actually forced myself to watch the Sandy Hook conspiracy video. Most of it is filled with completely fallacious thinking (much like a lot of the gun control people).

jesus christ, people are making the claim that the parents of dead children didn't "look sad enough," therefore there's a massive shadow government conspiracy.

THIS IS NOTHING LIKE PEOPLE CALLING FOR GUN REFORM

Nothing at all. These two things are not related or similar in any fucking way.

[DigitalChaos]

I never said they had the same agenda, just the same type of flawed logic. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself though.

[Aladdinsanity]

A truly bizarre ad-hominem you're touting. To equate those favoring gun control with said conspiracy theorists, who've caused even more grief for the victims of Newtown, is tasteless -- especially considering those in favor of gun control are at the very least trying to find ways to keep these tragedies from happening.

You say they're alike because they both employ "flawed logic" just to get a point across about how gun control is wrong, yet entirely overlooking the fact that many of these conspiracy theorists ARE pro-guns who are utterly paranoid of their arms being taken away and/or the fact our president is black (the latter is an ad-hominem, btw; tit-for-tat).

[Jinsai]

I never said they had the same agenda, just the same type of flawed logic. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself though.

They don't have "the same kind of flawed logic," and it doesn't "make me feel better about myself" to call that insinuation absolutely fucking moronic.

You want some similarly flawed logic though? Your comparison here is a lot like your other bizarre connection you made earlier, where you claimed the NRA using videogames as a scapegoat was "a lot like the misguided anti gun people." Is everything in your viewpoint somehow connected or comparable to the anti-gun stance that you disagree with, even if there's no fucking connection at all?

[DigitalChaos]

I find it hilarious that you both continue to focus on the agendas of a position rather than the logic used to come to a conclusion. Yes, many of the pro-gun people are also guilty of similar flawed logic. They aren't the ones looking to make changes.
I don't need to prove it to you. One only needs to look at the proposed changes from the gun control crowd. It's extremely uninformed and going to be very ineffective. But hey, their good intentions will make it all work... right?

[Jinsai]

I find it hilarious that you both continue to focus on the agendas of a position rather than the logic used to come to a conclusion. Yes, many of the pro-gun people are also guilty of similar flawed logic. They aren't the ones looking to make changes.
I don't need to prove it to you. One only needs to look at the proposed changes from the gun control crowd. It's extremely uninformed and going to be very ineffective. But hey, their good intentions will make it all work... right?

I'm not focusing on the agenda, I'm talking about the nonsensical comparisons you're drawing. When the pizza place burns your pizza, do you compare the delivery guy's attitude to the "anti-gun people?" Because, really, that's about how sensible and related your "point" here is.

Be sensible. You're comparing the following stances as far as logic goes:

A) The parents of murdered children don't look sad enough to me, so therefore they're all actors, nobody was murdered, and this is all part of a shadow government conspiracy.

B) Banning guns will reduce gun violence.

Argument B doesn't have "similar faulty logic," so come the fuck on already.

[DigitalChaos]

Right, because B is inherently true in your mind.

Abortion is murder
Voter ID laws will reduce voter fraud
The ATF will keep us safe
internet censorship will reduce piracy
Gay marriage destroys the sanctity of christian marriage
If you did nothing wrong you shouldn't have anything to hide. (every privacy issue)
Muslims terrorists attacked this country, therefore muslims are terrorists.

[Jinsai]

Right, because B is inherently true in your mind.

Abortion is murder
Voter ID laws will reduce voter fraud
The ATF will keep us safe
internet censorship will reduce piracy
Gay marriage destroys the sanctity of christian marriage
If you did nothing wrong you shouldn't have anything to hide. (every privacy issue)
Muslims terrorists attacked this country, therefore muslims are terrorists.

I'm not blindly endorsing the B argument, why is this so hard for you to follow?

Also, what the fuck are you even trying to say? Are you listing off things that remind you of the "anti gun people?" Because that's the only thing that makes sense.

[allegro]

I find it hilarious that you both continue to focus on the agendas of a position rather than the logic used to come to a conclusion. Yes, many of the pro-gun people are also guilty of similar flawed logic. They aren't the ones looking to make changes.
I don't need to prove it to you. One only needs to look at the proposed changes from the gun control crowd. It's extremely uninformed and going to be very ineffective. But hey, their good intentions will make it all work... right?

But conspiracy theories go way beyond simple flawed logic IMO.

In fact, the argument seems like drift.

From here:

The political scientist Michael Barkun discussing the usage of this term in contemporary American culture holds that a conspiracy theory is a belief which explains an event as the result of a secret plot by exceptionally powerful and cunning conspirators to achieve a malevolent end. According to Barkun, the appeal of conspiracism is threefold: First, conspiracy theories claim to explain what institutional analysis cannot. They appear to make sense out of a world that is otherwise confusing. Second, they do so in an appealingly simple way, by dividing the world sharply between the forces of light, and the forces of darkness. They trace all evil back to a single source, the conspirators and their agents. Third, conspiracy theories are often presented as special, secret knowledge unknown or unappreciated by others. For conspiracy theorists, the masses are a brainwashed herd, while the conspiracy theorists in the know can congratulate themselves on penetrating the plotters' deceptions.

[allegro]

^^ hahahaha.