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These things are informed by higher education, upbringing, and experience.Originally Posted by Jaguar
I respect that your relationship with your religion motivates you to do good toward society and the less privileged, those without a voice, etc.
But, from a philosophical standpoint, I believe this motivation comes more from the collective experience of suffering that Jews have experienced for thousands of years, vs. the mitzvahs.
Last edited by allegro; 05-19-2019 at 11:28 AM.
Hairy Member
Are our ethics influenced by our experience? Yes and rightly so.
Certainly you are correct that the suffering of Jews through the millennia plays an important role, perhaps as important a role, as Torah.
By our upbringing? Yes, and not always a good thing. It usually depends on whether our parents have come from families that honor religious mores. At one time, all of our society honored religious mores, except for criminal types and big jerks.
By our education? I would say NO, unless we have taken courses in ethics. Most have not. Knowing about plate tectonics, or what sonata allegro form is, or the line of species from lower primates to modern man does not teach ethical values. Much in art and literature teaches many different and confusing approaches to ethics. What is one supposed to choose?
Too Privileged to Get It
There have been atheists throughout history in large numbers far, far more often than you seem to think. Religious folks being in the majority doesn't translate to "all of our society", and in fact there are many documented cases of powerful and influential figures paying massive amounts of religious lip service but not believing a word of it at all behind the curtains. And many criminal organizations are notoriously religious. Classic Italian Mafia members are/were fanatically Catholic. You can fall back on the old "oh but they weren't REAL Catholics then" but if you asked them, they believed 100% with out exaggeration that their faith was real and strong.
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Well, technically, Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sin. Even murderers can be forgiven of their sins, hence why the Popes are against the death penalty and nuns go sit and pray with people on death row.
But what instantly jumped into my mind when I read your (above post) was this scene in The Godfather
Last edited by allegro; 05-21-2019 at 08:09 PM.
Hairy Member
And not too many decades ago, such atheists were raised by believers of one faith or another, and brought up in a Judeo-Christian culture that supported a common set of values.
The Mafia has been excommunicated by the Pope.
Too Privileged to Get It
None of that refutes what I said.
Bite me
Read the definition of excommunication. And even excommunication is intended to be temporary punishment, to cause penance and eventual forgiveness.
Only Pope Francis excommunicated members of the mafia, but excommunication isn’t damnation. It excludes you from receiving the sacraments. But local Archdiocese can still ignore the Vatican.
The Holy Roman Catholic Church, itself, is guilty of running a pedophile ring of priests abusing children for thousands of years and is still covering it up, all of which is grounds for excommunication. It’s why I and my Catholic Husband and best GF and my Mother (raised in the Catholic Church, 12 years of Catholic school including two years of Catholic boarding school) no longer attend Catholic Church and will not give one penny to the church.
My best friend was sexually abused as a child. I was Godmother to her first born son in the Catholic Church. We were all christened as Catholic. We cannot and will not contribute to pedophiles.
You can speak for Judaism, but not for Catholicism.
Stay in your lane.
Last edited by allegro; 05-22-2019 at 08:39 PM.
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You said “ethics and values,” and I said “higher education” (e.g. college).
I’m not talking the level of ethics that I was taught in graduate-level paralegal school. I’m not even talking specific ethics classes.
I’m saying that ethics are taught by way of expectations of students, disciplinary actions shown when necessary, hard work rewarded; it’s all teaching students that slacking will no longer be accepted, the difference between right and wrong, that good behavior is rewarded, that hard work is rewarding, etc.
Also, most current Gen Eds require second level English, which includes Composition, which includes Rhetoric, which includes a whole week (minimum) studying Ethos, Logos and Pathos.
Regarding teaching different approaches to ethics: It’s interesting that you imply this as being negative. I received my B.A. in English Literature and Communication (I minored in Art) from a private liberal arts college in the Chicago area that’s operated by the United Church of Christ. It was founded in 1871 as a theological seminary. It’s primary claim to fame is being Alma Mater to Reinhold Niebuhr. The institution’s focus is providing a good, well-rounded education, to promote and encourage free-thinking and exploration; different approaches to ethics is a plus, not a minus. Both literary theory and art history are critical lenses through which we view society and culture.
My Alma Mater’s mission statement:
Elmhurst College inspires intellectual and personal growth in our students, preparing them for meaningful and ethical contributions to a diverse, global society.
We promote intellectual freedom, curiosity and engagement; critical and creative inquiry; rigorous debate; innovative thinking and integrity in all endeavors. We ignite a passion for learning.
Last edited by allegro; 05-21-2019 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Trying to compose on an iPhone
Hairy Member
It could be that you had this class in Ethos because English was your major. As my minor, I had to choose only one, and chose Logic.
I think that such applied ethics as "hard work is rewarded" is pretty slim pickings.
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You didn’t read what I posted.
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