Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[Airbornefeline]

She consented to blowing him. She was not forced to do so. She chose to. She didn't want to have PiV sex, so she declined and left. No sexual activity took place without consent beforehand. Saying over and over again that this wasn't consensual despite there being nothing to support that claim doesn't change the facts.

I think the reason this is so difficult for folks is because no sexual assault took place and this "victim" is abusing the current social climate. I guess the woman who wrote that NYtimes article just recognized too much of her own "predatory behavior" in Aziz and that's why she's calling this bullshit out, can't be that this just wasn't sexual assault /s

It really isn't difficult to not consent to sexual behavior if you secretly aren't down for it. If she didn't want to make out with him, she shouldn't have. If she didn't want to engage in oral sex, she shouldn't have. She didn't want to have PiV sex so she made that known and they didn't. Even if her story is a 100% accurate depiction of the events as they transpired no sexual activity occurred without consent. As Bari said in that NYtimes article, BS like this is just damaging to the #metoo movement in general.

[Sarah K]

I mean, she said no several times and he still continued on. If you continue on after someone does not give consent, you're shitty. It might not be full-out sexual assault, but like I said, it is WAY beyond sexual harassment. In the kink world there is something called a "consent violation", which I hope eventually gets adopted on a wider scale.

[Airbornefeline]

Actually the one time she said no is exactly when the sexual encounter was ended and he called a car for her. She consented to every sexual act that went down.

[Sarah K]

Repeatedly moving away from someone is saying no.

Moving your hand away when they try to force you to touch their genitals is saying no.

Saying "not this time" is saying no.

Saying "Let's cool it" is saying no.

Coerced consent is not consent.

[Airbornefeline]

When did she try to get away from him? I saw no mention of any attempts to leave in that article.

Moving your hand away from someone's genitals is definitely not automatically a "no", especially when you proceed to willingly put said persons' genitals in your mouth just a few minutes after.

Saying "not this time" and then proceeding to put said persons' genitals into your mouth after they joke that having a glass of wine would be their 2nd date is definitely not a "no"

Saying "let's cool it", and again, getting naked and putting said persons' genitals into your mouth is definitely not a "no"

A "no" is a "no". A "I don't want to do this, I'm leaving" is a no. Sticking around, continuing foreplay and exchanging oral sex is not a "no"

As soon as "no" was said, the encounter was over. This was not sexual assault.

[Sarah K]

You are incorrect.

And also:

Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”

Just because something might not meet the legal definition of sexual assault doesn't mean it isn't incredibly fucked up.

The fact that you don't understand all of those to be examples of "no" is sad to me but unfortunately, all too common among young folks.

[playwithfire]

When did she try to get away from him? I saw no mention of any attempts to leave in that article.

Moving your hand away from someone's genitals is definitely not automatically a "no", especially when you proceed to willingly put said persons' genitals in your mouth just a few minutes after.

Saying "not this time" and then proceeding to put said persons' genitals into your mouth after they joke that having a glass of wine would be their 2nd date is definitely not a "no"

Saying "let's cool it", and again, getting naked and putting said persons' genitals into your mouth is definitely not a "no"

A "no" is a "no". A "I don't want to do this, I'm leaving" is a no. Sticking around, continuing foreplay and exchanging oral sex is not a "no"

As soon as "no" was said, the encounter was over. This was not sexual assault.

Would- would you not have interpreted her behavior as a lack of interest/lack of consent if you were in his shoes?

[Airbornefeline]

The fact that you don't know what "no" means makes me question your understanding of the english language.

What am I incorrect on lol? You just agreed that this does not fall under sexual assault. Seems like we're actually mostly on the same page then, minus your misunderstanding of basic words.

[playwithfire]

Also, I know Sarah quoted the article above, but I'm going to add to it and bold some parts because I do not understand how you can read this shit and think it is even close to okay.

Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.

She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. “He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’”
This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel “forced” had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down.
Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”
Soon, he pulled her back up onto the couch. She would tell her friend via text later that night, “He [made out] with me again and says, ‘Doesn’t look like you hate me.’”
Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, “Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?” He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse.
“I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”
They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”
While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”
“I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with “gross, forceful kisses.”
After that last kiss, Grace stood up from the couch, moved back to the kitchen island where she left her phone, and said she would call herself a car. He hugged her and kissed her goodbye, another “aggressive” kiss. When she pulled away, Ansari finally relented and insisted he’d call her the car. “He said, ‘It’s coming, but just tell them your name is Essence,’” she said, a name he has joked about using as a pseudonym in his sitcom.

[Prettybrokenspiral]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/o...arassment.html

Fantastic article. Really hits some nails on the head.

Even better are the comments, by rational people of all ages, genders and preferences. I suggest some of the people in this thread read through them, gain some perspective, and hopefully realize how utterly ridiculous they sound in here..

[elevenism]

i have to say this.
it's fucking GREAT that all of this is happening. It's fucking AWESOME and it seriously needed to happen.
But there is something about it that worries me. "believe all accusers" is kind of fucking dangerous, isn't it?
i mean, "believe all accusers" is dangerous regarding ANY subject, in ANY situation.
Also, i think there's a fine but important line between being a kind of sexually aggressive idiot and actually VIOLATING someone.

It's tricky, though, because how in the fuck do you go about vetting these things? It's utterly impossible i guess.
I just hope to god we're getting it right. If people aren't REALLY careful about this subject, this whole fucking thing is going to backfire, and i'd really hate to see that happen.

[sweeterthan]

Fantastic article. Really hits some nails on the head.

Even better are the comments, by rational people of all ages, genders and preferences. I suggest some of the people in this thread read through them, gain some perspective, and hopefully realize how utterly ridiculous they sound in here..

I’ve read it a few times since I saw it being shared on twitter. Which part of the piece do you find “fantastic?” I think it’s gross and purposely misleading. She glosses over his repeated coercion and put it all on the her. This is more victim blaming. She should’ve done this or that and all the mistakes she made.

Why is there no focus on his shitty behavior? Where’s the oped that explains how coercion isn’t consent?

[october_midnight]

Next up on the chopping block: Seal.

[sweeterthan]

I found an oped about consent. It was written with franken in mind but it’s relevant here.

So, while men like Matt Lauer or C.K. didn’t rape anyone, we need to redefine how we think about sexual assault, because nothing sexual is okay without explicit consent from each party. But some people resist thinking about things like this, because it might mean that men they’d admired, men who hadn’t gone so far as to commit criminal acts, are actually not innocent either.

Thinking you’ll get laid if you push hard enough is rape culture.

https://nylon.com/articles/rape-sexu...ken-in-between


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[playwithfire]

Fantastic article. Really hits some nails on the head.

Even better are the comments, by rational people of all ages, genders and preferences. I suggest some of the people in this thread read through them, gain some perspective, and hopefully realize how utterly ridiculous they sound in here..

The article literally incorrectly describes the events that happened with Aziz. It's dangerous, shitty writing.

[mfte]

This thing is entirely divisive if nothing else.

Ashleigh Banfield goes off on Aziz's accuser for compromising the metoo movement.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tanyachen/a...2vv#.kez1WXYNN

[Volband]

Holy shit. I'm glad basically everyone agrees on this - you know shit is messed up when both the left and the right media are on the same page. Imagine being actively involved in #metoo, hell, even having personal nightmares which lead you to bringing down the filth, and then this idiot marches in under your banner and cries for attention.

This is a movement for women who got used, abused then threatened to stay silent or else their life will be ruined. Then there's this chick who is like "Soooo I willingly sucked his dick, but ya know..."

If you've ever been to sexual hookups you know how they go. It can be anything between an amazing date ending on the next day, or some lame "are we gonna shag or what?" If someone invites you over to his apartment the first night you've met, then you either accept being treated as a fuck puppet (at least for the night; it might lead into something serious later), or you decline because you want none of that.

[ltrandazzo]

I want to make a distinction here because what I originally said yesterday was "Believe the accusersFIRST."

The reason I say this is because there is, of course, the possibility (no matter how small it is) that an accuser could be lying. However, there have been too many instances and real-life examples of the accused being reported to the proper authorities and those authorities did... nothing. @r_z wanted to bring up our systems of laws and what-have-you, but those systems have failed accusers and protected powerful men time and time again, so, in the court of public opinion, we should believe the accusers first.

Why? Because what do the accusers have to gain?

Here's the other thing regarding Aziz Ansari that I want to discuss - I'm not firmly in the camp of "FUCK AZIZ ANSARI" yet. The events that Grace shared are bad and Aziz, whether he realizes it or not, engaged in sexual misconduct that went into abuse as the night went on. However, I don't necessarily file him into the same category as Weinstein & Spacey, or the category of Louis C.K., or even in the category of Al Franken - and yes, there are differences between those three. There is something that all men need to learn from this incident with Aziz and that is to understand how to read non-verbal cues and understand when what you're doing isn't sexy and that the person you're doing it with isn't sharing the same sentiment. If you're unsure, ASK. Life and sexual encounters don't always play out the way we see them in movies (both theatrical and pornographic) and even if it might not seem sexy to do so, ASK.

Trust me. When you ask, it's even better than you can imagine.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

I just can't believe with all these dudes being outed, that not one person has come forward with a story about Dave Navarro...Out of the 500,000 girls that guy has fucked, you would think one would have some story...I guess most of them just bow down to him as soon as he hits them up (friends with a few girls who have done that) so maybe davey boy doesnt have to ask for any weird shit since they are so willing to give it up....Although I know he gets in a huff if he gets rejected because I am friends with a girl who told me how he used to hit her up on fb all the time asking to hook up and when she rejected him via fb, he had some tirade calling her names and then blocked her...I saw the messages...Hilarious stuff....

Also why is nobody talking about Corey Feldmans former "angels" claiming how he has sexually harassed them....The Feldman stuff is priceless...Reading all the accounts on fb about how this guy has drug fueled orgies and forces these women to "watch" or to "participate" with other men so he can watch and hes forcefeedng them pills and berates them if they dont do all his errands....The dude is totally whacked

[playwithfire]

[video=youtube;y4bAULTwAJU]
If you've ever been to sexual hookups you know how they go. It can be anything between an amazing date ending on the next day, or some lame "are we gonna shag or what?" If someone invites you over to his apartment the first night you've met, then you either accept being treated as a fuck puppet (at least for the night; it might lead into something serious later), or you decline because you want none of that.

I'm sorry, what? Are women not entitled to expect to be treated with respect just because they engage in casual sex?

[elevenism]

Also why is nobody talking about Corey Feldmans former "angels" claiming how he has sexually harassed them....The Feldman stuff is priceless...Reading all the accounts on fb about how this guy has drug fueled orgies and forces these women to "watch" or to "participate" with other men so he can watch and hes forcefeedng them pills and berates them if they dont do all his errands....The dude is totally whacked

Wait WHAT? Seriously? HAhahahaha

[Volband]

I'm sorry, what? Are women not entitled to expect to be treated with respect just because they engage in casual sex?

Of course they are, but what I meant by fuck puppet is their (or the man's, but we are talking about the women's perspective now) status in that quasi relationship, and not being a literal ragdoll to be dragged around. If you go on a sex date or some improvised netflix and chill hangout, the only thing you can be sure about is that the other person intends to have a sexual encounter with you, and if you have absolutely no intentions like that, then do not ever go. Now, whether he is a cool and respectful guy who puts the male protagonists of romantic movies to shame, or an asshole who immidietly pulls down his pants and instructs you to have at it is a big-big question mark, unless you actually know the person (ie. you are friends who happened to take it to the next level).

You can always decline and leave if you feel you don't get the level of respect you would expect. But it is not a news-worthy story and this is not #metoo. If anything, the world would be a much better place if Aziz's actions were the worst examples of horny people trying to have their way. Not only was the control in the woman's hands the entire time, but when ultimately rejected, he didn't resort to project all hisfrustration and dissapointment at her in his anger.

I understand that there is a whole other debate within the lines about how you should and should not behave with women during casual sex-hookups, and while the topic is interesting, I don't think it necessarily belongs to sexual asshatery. Mighty Hollywood are/were people raping, groping and threatening (mostly) women, even underaged ones, and they were turned a blind eye for decades. They are like cancer, while this story about a shitty date is a pimple.

Just compare it with the Louis C K story. The women were allowed to leave as well, however he put them all on the spot, which can instigate fear, and in case of the phone calls, he never even asked for consent. And I don't like when people are joking about how hard it must be to put a telephone down, when the main issue is that do not fucking jerk off to a convo without consent, because it's creepy as hell. Some women were also threatened by his manager. Anyway, it's night and day compared to the Aziz "story".

[telee.kom]

lmao

[playwithfire]

I love Samantha Bee so much.

[botley]

Anybody catch Dylan Farrow's on-camera interview with CBS about Woody Allen yesterday?

[thelastdisciple]

I think Bill's making some really great points here regarding the way some people have been giving an equality to inappropriate sexual behaviors and crimes in the news lately. Someone goes and touches someone's behind without permission. Yes It's gross, yes it's uncalled for, wrong and completely violating but trying to equate it to some poor women who have been raped is like saying a smack in the face is as bad as murder.

[sweeterthan]

I think Bill's making some really great points here regarding the way some people have been giving an equality to inappropriate sexual behaviors and crimes in the news lately. Someone goes and touches someone's behind without permission. Yes It's gross, yes it's uncalled for, wrong and completely violating but trying to equate it to some poor women who have been raped is like saying a smack in the face is as bad as murder.

Except literally no one is saying that they’re equal. They’re saying it’s all bad. Watch the Samantha bee video. Bill Maher can stfu. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Edited to add: this is text book mansplaining. “Ladies, ladies, calm down. It’s not like you got raped! “

[elevenism]

Anybody catch Dylan Farrow's on-camera interview with CBS about Woody Allen yesterday?

Yeah, but Jesus God I don't want it to be true

[tremolo]

Of course they are, but what I meant by fuck puppet is their (or the man's, but we are talking about the women's perspective now) status in that quasi relationship, and not being a literal ragdoll to be dragged around. If you go on a sex date or some improvised netflix and chill hangout, the only thing you can be sure about is that the other person intends to have a sexual encounter with you, and if you have absolutely no intentions like that, then do not ever go. Now, whether he is a cool and respectful guy who puts the male protagonists of romantic movies to shame, or an asshole who immidietly pulls down his pants and instructs you to have at it is a big-big question mark, unless you actually know the person (ie. you are friends who happened to take it to the next level).

I’m not watching/reading news on the subject, so I don’t know what’s going on, but your first paragraph portrays that there is a huge lack of common sense going around nowadays.

Maybe it’s because of technology? I don’t know, but it seems people are losing touch with the real world and how it operates. It’s almost as basic as “don’t accept candies from strangers”.

We have to understand that there is a risk involved in meeting with strangers, especially meeting in a private place (their/your home). Whatever their social media says/shows, it is not necessarily a true indication of how they really are and what they are after. Yeah, social media and apps like tinder have made it easier than ever to hookup, or just to meet people with that intent. Common sense tells me: meet in a public neutral space, get a feel of how this person is, listen to your gut. And even if everything seems fine after a couple of dates, always be aware that you don’t know that person and that behind closed doors, their attitude might change from super nice to “i don’t take no for an answer”. Always let friends/family know where you’re going, who you’re meeting with, and at the first red flag, just walk away, leave, and have your phone ready for an emergency call just in case.


It’s a 2-way street. As much as we need to educate people not to force themselves sexually onto others, we also have to educate people on how things really are and how to be on the safer side for their own good.

[Volband]

I’m not watching/reading news on the subject, so I don’t know what’s going on, but your first paragraph portrays that there is a huge lack of common sense going around nowadays.

Maybe it’s because of technology? I don’t know, but it seems people are losing touch with the real world and how it operates. It’s almost as basic as “don’t accept candies from strangers”.

We have to understand that there is a risk involved in meeting with strangers, especially meeting in a private place (their/your home). Whatever their social media says/shows, it is not necessarily a true indication of how they really are and what they are after. Yeah, social media and apps like tinder have made it easier than ever to hookup, or just to meet people with that intent. Common sense tells me: meet in a public neutral space, get a feel of how this person is, listen to your gut. And even if everything seems fine after a couple of dates, always be aware that you don’t know that person and that behind closed doors, their attitude might change from super nice to “i don’t take no for an answer”. Always let friends/family know where you’re going, who you’re meeting with, and at the first red flag, just walk away, leave, and have your phone ready for an emergency call just in case.


It’s a 2-way street. As much as we need to educate people not to force themselves sexually onto others, we also have to educate people on how things really are and how to be on the safer side for their own good.

Not sure if you meant to disagree with something I said, but I can agree with you word for word.

If a date goes well (ie. we are already at a second date) I always try to inquire some info about how dates are perceived by a girl, and I learn many - to me - mindblowing stuff. Like, this one girl told me she had 3 girlfriends ready to bail her out if she needed the help to ditch me, or anyone else for that matter. Many girls (in bigger cities at least) have sprays at them too.

Anyway, there is a very distinct line between purging sexual predators and white-knighting girls who are apparently still in need to be spoon-fed. Just because the sign turns green at an intersection, you should still have enough brain cells to look left, then right before you proceed onwards. No, it is absolutely not your fault if some idiiot is driving rcklessly not caring about the traffic rules, but it is your own fault if you don't value your own safety enough to check out your environment.

A dude is inviting me to his apartment after our first date? Well, I would like [this relationship] to be something serious, so I'm gonna pass on that; if he truly likes me, a second date should be a no-brainer for him, and if he just wants to shag me, then I dodged a bullet! Easy as that. If you still accept his invitation (despite not wanting anything sexual), then this story is not about gender, but intelligence quotient.

I understand the idea of discussing how men should tone down their advancement and it might improve everyone's life, yada-yada, but until people like James Franco can play the martyr, I think we - as a society - have much bigger problems to discuss than "Tinder-culture".

edit: and how to approach a date should definitely be taught in school, but I heard in some US schools you can't even talk about sex... in sex ed.