Steubenville trial and rape culture

[hollowed_point]

This is what you took from my statement? This problem is more serious than I thought. We need to talk about another aspect of rape that gets vastly under-reported. As clearly evidenced in this thread rape can turn some men -and possibly even women- let's call them "non-rapees" into complete retards. In severe cases they may lose reading comprehension skills, and the motivation to think critically and with compassion.

Should I spoon feed your feeble little brains and copy and paste the posts I have made IN THIS THREAD advocating the need for personal responsibility? Can you stupid people at least stop typing until you've read this massive four pager? It's not 1980 anymore, update your goddamn social software.

Damn man, do you need to take a Valium or something? Was social software out in 1980? Were you the first person with a computer? Are you a time traveler?! HOLY SHIT!!!

Being a dickhole when trying to have a discussion doesn't strengthen your point or make you look cool, it makes you look like a dickhole.

thanks once again for bringing the conversation right back around to what the victim did wrong rather than the fucked up culture that fosters this awful behavior in the first place.

is primarily what i was responding to, and I'm pretty sure that my entire post was stating that I don't think that that's what DigitalChaos was saying, and it certainly isn't how I feel. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT THE VICTIM IS AT FAULT. If it makes you feel special, you can call me and everyone else who dares to add to the conversation a "retard" again. Thanks for the valuable input.

[littlemonkey613]

You are also all not taking into account how that rhetoric increases attitudes that allow for assault to be prevalent. Many people have such little respect for the bodies of intoxicated people because society has this "what do you expect" attitude. I see it lived out on a daily basis. That is why rhetoric is so important and why "personal responsibility" as a phrase within this context is unjustifiable. DigitalChaos also is not taking into account how much damage their rhetoric does to people who are already victims. It's dangerously similar to "boys will be boys" and again it is the constant in these kinds of discussions pretty much no matter what the context.

I'm still angry that DigitalChaos has not addressed my critique of their parenting comment....It's just so ironic that someone making these statements could say something as ludicrous as that.

Would you actually feel comfortable telling a sexual assault victim who was assaulted when they were black out drunk that they failed a personal responsibility, but oh don't worry its not your fault tho!

If so, go to hell. If not.....don't say that ever again.

[Magtig]

You didn't add anything to this conversation. Neither did Digital Chaos. Not. One. Single. Thing. Nothing. Not at all. Zip. Zero. Zilchola! Everything you've said has been said before, but better, and by better people. (I was going to call you a retard again, but I figured it was strongly implied.)

And yes, that did definitely make me feel better.

/dickhole

[hollowed_point]

You didn't add anything to this conversation. Neither did Digital Chaos. Not. One. Single. Thing. Nothing. Not at all. Zip. Zero. Zilchola! Everything you've said has been said before, but better, and by better people. (I was going to call you a retard again, but I figured it was strongly implied.)

And yes, that did definitely make me feel better.

/dickhole

Boy oh boy, you sure are quite proud of yourself, aren't you. I agree with you 100% that what happened here was entirely wrong, only reinforcing things I've read in this thread about vulnerable young women/men doing everything then can to protect themselves. There are no guarantees, as I've ALREADY stated, but every little bit counts. Do I have to link to some random assholes articles in every post I make for it to be valuable to the conversation? Or are you so far up your own ass that you need to be the god of all that is right and anything else that is said is stupid. Can I not add my own input as a father?

I've read the fucking thread, you pretentious prick. I've seen the links, the arguments, etc. I was giving my opinion, enforcing some of the things I've read in this thread while disagreeing with others. I place no blame on the victim and 100% of it on the perpetrators. Did you read all of MY posts?

And said before by better people? LMAO. You're a fucking joke. You think because their post count is higher than mine that my opinion is less valid. Typical forum whore nonsense.

How about this...instead of teaching my kids to make smart, intelligible decisions, I'll just tell them that rape is WRONG AND IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AND THAT'S IT AND IF IT HAPPENS IT'S THE SHITHOLE MANS FAULT FOR BEING SUCH A WORTHLESS PILE OF GARBAGE, DON'T WORRY ABOUT PROTECTING YOURSELF OR MAKING SMART DECISIONS, PEOPLE WILL FIGURE IT OUT SOON ENOUGH. WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THE RAPE CULTURE SO THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO WORRY ABOUT!!!

yeah, that'll work.

[DigitalChaos]

Women's fundamental problem is that we exist. The history of tackling rape IS telling women what not to do.

The fact that you are focusing on women shows how heavily distorted your view is on the topic. It's like a fucking estrogen echo chamber in here. If we don't agree with you 100% then we are 100% wrong!

In case you were wondering why this world is so full of the reality of rapists...... THIS IS IT. Not only do you have a responsibility to explicitly say this, but one to say it over and over, in a way that details what is consent and what is not, what is coercion, what is sexual intimidation and in a way that accounts for the unequal world we are currently living in where women are not raised to have the same sexual agency as men.

No. My parents didn't explicitly tell this to me but I somehow know it's wrong. This is as asinine as the people who say you need religion to have morals. A good parent doesn't have to explicitly list every single bad thing that one should never do, a failing parent has to do this. That's how MORALS work! If you have to memorize an explicit list of bad actions, you do not have a functional moral compass.


PS - You say this is why the world is full of rapists. Well, I say your mentality is why the world is full of victims.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/10/alaska_men_accused_of_raping_d.html


"One in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18."


http://www.ncdsv.org/images/sexualassaultstatistics.pdf


"According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 an hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year.


According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 6 out of 10 rape/sexual assault incidents are reported by victims to have occurred in their own home or a the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor."

THANK YOU! I don't understand why people continue to focus on rape as something that happens to only women. If you want to change something, you have to understand the whole picture.

^ @Digital, No one is arguing against that point! We are trying to convince you that it is in fact just about the ONLY thing that society ever tells people when it comes to sexual assault! Your preaching to a world who does nothing but regurgitate that same point over and over and over again! You talked about failed responsibility of a rape victim in relation to their rape situation. THAT IS VICTIM BLAMING.

Only in this thread can people say over and over that nobody is blaming the victim while people continue to say that we shouldn't blame the victim. It's getting pointless to even respond...


I already know that any child I raise will never intentionally harm someone. However, there are a lot of shitty parents in this world. I also know that, depending on the situation, my child will also stop someone from harming another.
What I do not know is that my child won't be a victim. The best thing I can do is teach my child how to not be a victim. So fuck you for trying to marginalize the importance of that message by pointing out that your political opponents happen to say it too.

Would you actually feel comfortable telling a sexual assault victim who was assaulted when they were black out drunk that they failed a personal responsibility, but oh don't worry its not your fault tho!

I wouldn't have to say it. They would already know it.

What do you think is the #1 thing that person regrets doing?

What do you think the #1 thing they would change if they could do it again?

What advice do you think that person will have for others who want to avoid being a rape victim?

[allegro]

You think because their post count is higher than mine that my opinion is less valid. Typical forum whore nonsense.

hey whoa I resemble that remark!! :-)

[littlemonkey613]

The fact that you are focusing on women shows how heavily distorted your view is on the topic. It's like a fucking estrogen echo chamber in here. If we don't agree with you 100% then we are 100% wrong!

.................................................. .....I have literally spent 3 pages arguing against this focus and that sentence was the pinnacle of that sentiment. Also, estrogen echo chamber... holy shit, nice.

No. My parents didn't explicitly tell this to me but I somehow know it's wrong. This is as asinine as the people who say you need religion to have morals. A good parent doesn't have to explicitly list every single bad thing that one should never do, a failing parent has to do this. That's how MORALS work! If you have to memorize an explicit list of bad actions, you do not have a functional moral compass.


PS - You say this is why the world is full of rapists. Well, I say your mentality is why the world is full of victims.

.........................25% of women are raped in college. People are growing up without knowing what rape and consent are. Your anecdotal experience does not eliminate the fact that we are in dire need of education about rape and consent in explicit detail. Seriously this post above all others puts on full display how utterly ignorant you are about this issue. My mentality is why the world is full of victims.....Seriously fuck you I can't even believe this.

Your totally making sense man. I call you out on saying that a rape victim had a personal responsibility not to get too drunk, you make the claim that people don't need to explicitly tell their children not to rape and teach them about explicit consent and I am the reason the world is full of rape victims. Literally what the fuck.

Only in this thread can people say over and over that nobody is blaming the victim while people continue to say that we shouldn't blame the victim. It's getting pointless to even respond...

NEWSFLASH.Saying something isn't victim blaming doesn't make it NOT victim blaming.
Victim blaming is not a term with a simple definition and is not always express obviously like "she deserved it." etc. Jesus read up and get your shit together. There are nuances pertaining to all of this that you are just clearly unfamiliar with.

I wouldn't have to say it. They would already know it.

What do you think is the #1 thing that person regrets doing?

What do you think the #1 thing they would change if they could do it again?

What advice do you think that person will have for others who want to avoid being a rape victim?

If they COULD DO WHAT AGAIN?! They are victims of RAPE not people who made a grave mistake.

I don't have to think of hypothetical people because so many of these victims are my close friends. I am a victim of coercion and sexual assault myself. You are so fucked up. Guess what they actually spend their time ranting about? VICTIM BLAMING. And battling the very notion that someone can AVOID being a rape victim. Jesus Fuck you omg.

Seriously I'm glad you made this specific post. I think it will pretty much settle the debate for anyone who is actually concerned with handling this issue sensitively and for those who actually take into account the insane amount of shame and accusations about a lack of responsibility victims have to face on a daily basis.

[Nyx]

Let's change it up a little:

Would you actually feel comfortable telling a sexual assault victim who was assaulted when they were wearing a mini skirt and a tight shirt/walking home at night/getting into a car with her date that they failed a personal responsibility, but oh don't worry its not your fault tho!

I wouldn't have to say it. They would already know it.

What do you think is the #1 thing that person regrets doing?

What do you think the #1 thing they would change if they could do it again?

What advice do you think that person will have for others who want to avoid being a rape victim?

It's the exact same thing. The victim is told that s/he was in some way responsible for either inspiring or enabling an act of rape. I don't get why this isn't immediately disgusting to everyone.

Yeah, alcohol is a problem, NO the aftermath of a rape is not the appropriate time to talk about it, not only out of respect for the victim trying to heal, but because any attention that goes to that, is attention that would be a million times better spent on things that do actually inspire and enable rape. But this way, instead of people being introspective, researching how everyone is contributing to this sort of behaviour and mentality, searching for ways to make this society a more decent place, finding and doing things as a society to help the victim cope, we're instead first and foremost saying "if she weren't so drunk/slutty/careless, this would have never happened" case closed.

Apparently, you have to explicitly tell your daughters they shouldn't drink if they don't want to get raped, but you don't have to explicitly tell boys not to assault females, they will "just know" it. Yeah, a lot of them will "just know it", but some children possess less empathy and common sense than others, especially in group type situations, regardless of their parents thinking their kids "just know" and that they're "good kids who would never do such a thing". Do you think any parents of rapists go "Yeah, he was always such a little scumbag, it was just a question of time, really.."? Like, for serious? That's why every child should be explicitly and repeatedly told not to mess with anyone's girl/boy parts unless the other person made it very clear they want their fun parts messed with. And every child should be explicitly and repeatedly told what to do if they ever witness or suspect anything like that happening to someone else. That is how you begin to tackle the problem of rape, not by telling girls to stop being so easy to rape. No one is saying you shouldn't tell girls about the dangers boys may present to them in this sad sad world, but to ascribe any kind of responsibility to the victim of a sexual assault, however partial and tiny, is absolutely wrong and just completely fucked up.

[DigitalChaos]

After reading the rest of this thread it seems it all boils down to two differing opinion on stopping/reducing rapes


Side A wants to reduce the number of rapists.
Proposed solutions include making sure everyone knows that rape is wrong by addressing "rape culture"... and that's about it. (Who the fuck doesn't know that rape is wrong?) Any level of focus on the victims makes them feel bad, so we shouldn't do that. It also draws attention away from the true problem: the rapists.




Side B wants to reduce the number of victims.
Proposed solutions include informing people that threats exist in many places that they wouldn't have expected and educating people on what makes you an easier vs harder target. We should continue to shun rape as a society but realize that it is a slow process that will never achieve 100% success. Therefore, victim prevention is going to be necessary.




That about right? Have I distilled it enough to satisfy that undying need to have problems framed in a black and white?

[littlemonkey613]

(Who the fuck doesn't know that rape is wrong?)

You just aren't getting it. We live in a society were people don't even know what constitutes rape. Please just fucking research and read on this topic.

And dear god you actually just said easier vs harder target.

And no your distillation once again proves that you don't understand what we have been saying all of this time.

[DigitalChaos]

Answer my bolded question about advice. Unless your answer is "there is now way you can reduce your chances"

[DigitalChaos]

Let's change it up a little:

It's the exact same thing. The victim is told that s/he was in some way responsible for either inspiring or enabling an act of rape.

It's not the same thing. Your example is nowhere near the level of being completely defenseless as an unconscious person. It's all about the risk. Don't pretend the risk is the same. Don't pretend that personal choice doesn't modify risk.

[DigitalChaos]

Only in this thread is talk of disabling rape considered "enabling rape"

Pretty amazing.

[icklekitty]

This thread needs a trigger warning

[Nyx]

If I get shitfaced I accept full or partial personal responsibility for any of the following things:
-any damage I may cause while drunk
-being an asshole to people
-vomiting on my pants
-vomiting on someone else's pants
-breaking my face as a result of falling
-choking on my own vomit to death

Things I accept absolutely no personal responsibility for, either while shitfaced or sober:
-getting sexually assaulted or raped
-getting kidnapped
-getting murdered
-getting harmed by someone in any other way

You're going on about personal responsibility, but you simply do not get that no one is ever, in the slightest way, under no circumstance, responsible for getting raped. No matter what. That is the distilled point "side A" is making. Do you get it? You can do all you want to try and not be a victim, sit at home with 5 locks on the door and an anti-rape condom in your vagina for all I care, but don't ever suggest someone is fully or even partially responsible for anything done to them against their will.

[Deepvoid]

It's not the same thing. Your example is nowhere near the level of being completely defenseless as an unconscious person. It's all about the risk. Don't pretend the risk is the same. Don't pretend that personal choice doesn't modify risk.

Might as well stay inside, lock the doors and windows.
Because the way you see it is that as soon as you step outside, well you risk of being raped and therefore, you should or shouldn't do certain things in order to prevent being raped. You end up saying if you don't follow those "guidelines" or "rules" or if you're not cautious enough in certain circumstances well... you have to bear a little bit of responsibility.

That's just wrong. I agree with everyone who says that under no circumstances should one single finger be pointed in the victim's direction. No matter how you slice and dice it.

[Wolfkiller]

I don't think anyone is advocating the victim is in any way responsible for what happened to them. Yes, it would be wonderful if the world was perfect and anyone could walk around naked and get black out drunk without having to worry about anything bad happening to them. Unfortunately, we live in a world full of shitty people who do sick and cruel things to others while passed out. I don't think the term "rape culture" does justice to describing the problems society has, we have an asshole culture. Some people are cunts, period. Fingers should never be pointed at the victim, but it certainly couldn't hurt to explain to children that some people are fucked up and will do unto others nasty shit they wouldn't want done to themselves.

[Satyr]

It's not the same thing. Your example is nowhere near the level of being completely defenseless as an unconscious person. It's all about the risk. Don't pretend the risk is the same. Don't pretend that personal choice doesn't modify risk.

Personal choice does obviously modify risk. People make stupid choices all the time. I could strap on a suit and a rolex and go on a walk through East Cleveland. That would put me at high risk of getting robbed (possibly at gunpoint) and beaten (potentially murdered).

I don't think that my stupid choice should absolve the person that robbed/beat/killed me of their crime. I certainly think that the person that committed the crimes should be held accountable...But that doesn't give me back my rolex my health, or my life.

[marodi]

Oh dear, why am I in this thread again?

Let's try something else: isn't the justice system the biggest victim blaming of them all? From the very little I know about it, it seems to me that the defense team will do everything to pin the fact that the victim was raped on the victim herself. Do they (the defense team) still look into the victim sexual history; what she was wearing when the "incident" happened, did she said no clearly; did she send mixed signals; was she drinking; did she have a prior relationship with the accused etc.

This is how I remember it going in the court system. If it's still going on, how are we to expect a change in people's mentality when it seems like the law itself is saying the raped person is to blame?

[Canuckle]

I'm curious as to why 'personnel responsibility' is such a faux pas when it comes to rape?

If I drive down the street sober, but don't wear my seatbelt and a drunk driver hits me and I am killed (but would of been saved if I wore a seatbelt), most people would agree that my lack of 'personnel responsibility' contributed (NOTE: I did not say the sole or primary reason) to my death.

If I walk down the streets of Harlem and wear a large swastika on my chest and get shot, most people would agree that my lack of 'common sense' contributed (NOTE: Again I did not say sole or primary reason) to my death.

Then why is it that when we talk about rape it's so black and white. One side argues that it's the rape victims fault (which I agree, is disgusting and inexcusable) while the other simply states that no one should be raped no matter what that person does, looks like or acts like, and the victim is completely faultless (i.e., it doesn't matter how drunk the girl got, it only matters that she was raped).

When did we stop thinking about preventative action and only think about teaching what's right and wrong? Not everyone in this world adheres to 'right' and 'wrong'. Common sense dictates that you need to be precautious and that trust in others is something earned, not expected.

So why is it so taboo to say suggest to a girl or boy "don't get black out drunk because it puts you in a vulnerable state, where things such as rape could happen"? Why is this automatically considered that you are sympathizing with the abuser and blaming the victim when really, it's something we would all suggest to our own children?

[orestes]

Right now discussion is being pigeon-holed into scenarios similar to date rape when it is being systemically used as a tool of war, intimidation, etc.

Do you know who has the highest threat of sexual assault? POCs, gay and transgender victims. It's not just drunk girls at a party.

Just saying.

[Canuckle]

Right now discussion is being pigeon-holed into scenarios similar to date rape when it is being systemically used as a tool of war, intimidation, etc.

Just saying.

I'll be the first to admit that rape comes in many forms; MANY of which aren't preventable and really represent the scum of the earth. Sadly, the most prolific rape cases up here in the North generally centre around child sexual assault in sports, and in particular hockey. In those cases, my argument/questions really have no place and I concede that.

Apologies if my comments seem misguided as I wrote them as more of a response to the entire thread which has been centred around juvenile date-rape.

[allegro]

The title of the thread includes "Steubenville" so that probably contributes to the thread direction? Maybe this should be called the Rape Culture thread so that it includes all kinds of sexual assaults to both male and female victims, young and old?

(I had to Google "POCs" - people of color?)

[DigitalChaos]

You're going on about personal responsibility, but you simply do not get that no one is ever, in the slightest way, under no circumstance, responsible for getting raped. No matter what.

The only people in this thread saying that the victim is responsible are you and others like you who use that as an out when asked about variance in risk based on personal choice. Good job completely avoiding the question!

Might as well stay inside, lock the doors and windows.
Because the way you see it is that as soon as you step outside, well you risk of being raped and therefore, you should or shouldn't do certain things in order to prevent being raped. You end up saying if you don't follow those "guidelines" or "rules" or if you're not cautious enough in certain circumstances well... you have to bear a little bit of responsibility.

That's just wrong. I agree with everyone who says that under no circumstances should one single finger be pointed in the victim's direction. No matter how you slice and dice it.

Good job avoiding the reality of personal responsibility modifying risk just like the last person. You even went and use hyperbole to act like risk shouldn't be something you think about because it is unavoidable.

FAIL

Yea, let's tell everyone that there is nothing you can do to protect yourself from rape. Just ignore that topic. Great job people. You are the ones who make victims.

[DigitalChaos]

And since you two will probably use more hyperbole... No, not all rapes can be prevented. To deny that you can reduce your chance of being a victim (even outside of rape) is socially irresponsible.

[Deepvoid]

We are making the victims? Are you for real?

Holy shit the things people say ...
Big FACEPALM to you....

[allegro]

Guys, can we get off this argument? It's kinda dumb and doesn't make sense according to the statistics.

The bigger discussion would be to focus on sexual "assault' and how this is a way for men to exert power over their victim (young, old, male, female, disabled, drunk, sober, retarded, whatever) and often shows hatred and disdain; it's like a hate crime, but using sex to show hate.

[Deepvoid]

And since you two will probably use more hyperbole... No, not all rapes can be prevented. To deny that you can reduce your chance of being a victim (even outside of rape) is socially irresponsible.

Let me get this straight.
If a girl is passed out drunk with a bunch of thugs at a part, she bears some liability for not lowering the probability of being raped by 1- due to drinking alcohol when in the presence of suspicious people (libel) 2- for hanging with the wrong crowd?

Is that what you're saying?

[Canuckle]

Not to be nit-picky, but if we are opening this up, female-on-female and even female-on-male rape is also a thing. Obviously not as widespread as male-on-X rape, but both do exist.

[Deepvoid]

Guys, can we get off this argument? It's kinda dumb and doesn't make sense according to the statistics.

The bigger discussion would be to focus on sexual "assault' and how this is a way for men to exert power over their victim (young, old, male, female, disabled, drunk, sober, retarded, whatever) and often shows hatred and disdain; it's like a hate crime, but using sex to show hate.

Agree but I'm little insulted by the statement that we are now making victims because we chose to put the blame solely on the rapist.
It's pretty much saying that we're as bad the rapists themselves.

That's low ...