Real Hippie Asshole
Leave it to the lib brigade here to be shocked when the oppressed resort to violence against the terrorist state of Israel. So heart broken over ravers partying on stolen land outside of an open air prison, where have your tears been for the ongoing violence against innocent Palestinian civilians?
Active Member
One of the worst aspects about all of this is the infinite amount of privileged white social media influencers who suddenly think of themselves as experts on the middle east. Shut the absolute fuck up and quit using this situation as a way to gain more "clout" or whatever the fuck. You don't have a fucking CLUE about what is going on over there or any of the intricacies of any of it. It's fucking exhausting.
Trollhunter
I’ve been concentrating on more personal things lately. My girlfriend is having an outpatient procedure done as I speak and I’m just a ball of nerves waiting. Trying to be cool.
This conflict is scary, I’m not going lie. It’s sad to see all the pro Israel or nothing bullshit. Hamas isn’t ALL Palestinians. That’s all I got.
(Unused symbol)
This is where I'm at.Originally Posted by Swykk
Also, hope your g/f's procedure went well.
Last edited by cdm; 10-12-2023 at 12:25 PM.
BADGERS
Thousands of civilians dead in Gaza from Israel's bombing, and my stupid fucking country, which won't fund school lunches, is like here Ben, have a blank check to buy more bombs!
Last edited by Wretchedest; 10-13-2023 at 01:23 AM.
God is an American
tempus est umbra in mente
it's hard to know who to listen to with this... Israel tells civilians to leave Gaza and go south, which the UN is saying is "impossible." Another report I read claimed that Hamas was preventing any caravans from leaving Gaza. Then I'm seeing people claim that Israel is directly targeting civilian caravans. Then I'm hearing that they're being used as human shields.
I have no idea what to believe.
Active Member
Believe that Israel is a colonizing political entity and apply what you know about other colonizers... it's not good.
Stubby Member
The Gaza strip has basically been an open air prison for over half a century now. Half of the population of Gaza are children. The blockades that Israel has put up are going to affect these kids the hardest - let alone the attacks.
And indeed, as has been mentioned earlier, when picking sides it is often overlooked that you cannot just conflate a people with the systems that claim governance and sovereignty over them. Hamas is as poor of a representation of the overall attitudes of the people of Gaza as that the Netanyahu administration is of the overall attitudes of the Israeli people.
Throbbing Member
This is a very difficult post but I feel like I have to write it because the cultural atmosphere around this is so toxic.
This past week I have been struck by how eerily similar things have felt to the way they were immediately post-9/11 and I am deeply disturbed at how, just as then, the horror and grief and outrage at a devastating terrorist attack has metastasized in real time into this jingoistic, morally black-and-white full-throated endorsement of severe military retaliation that will mostly fall on people who had absolutely nothing to do with Hamas and their massacre. It goes without saying that what their insurgents carried out was absolutely heinous (and frankly the fact I need to say that at all says a lot about the conversation around this and how any attempt to place this in a bigger context is generally screamed at), but regardless of what Israeli authorities and our media would want you to think, Palestinians do not spring out of the womb as hateful antisemites. People hating other people so much that they will enthusiastically do something so hideous to them does not happen in a vacuum, and when I consider what life must be like in the Palestinian territories - family and friends routinely and indiscriminately blown up as the whole world either pays no attention or parrots Israel's rhetoric on "self defense" and "collateral damage" - it is not difficult for me to understand how these people become radicalized and have their hate stoked and weaponized by groups like Hamas. Nothing can justify brutally slaughtering innocents (and the DSA types openly conflating support for Palestine against the Israeli apartheid state with support for a literal terrorist massacre are doing nothing but damage to the cause they claim to support), but it's impossible to talk about what happened honestly without addressing the systemic injustice constantly creating the despair and hatred that fuels this barbarism.
We are also seeing, in real time, the double standard of the conflict and how differently civilian lives are valued depending on which border they are behind. Every Israeli life lost is an unspeakable tragedy that must be loudly mourned and decried and any and all violence wrought in their wake is completely justified by Israeli sovereignty and self-defense. Every Palestinian life lost is a terrorist or collateral damage, the unfortunate but necessary price of Israeli security, when they are mentioned by the media at all. The Israelis are allowed their hatred and outrage - the crimes against them are poured over in horrific detail for all to hear and see - while people like this have to remain composed and "civil" as they discuss half a dozen members of their family being annihilated by Israeli airstrikes. The message is clear; Israeli lives matter, Palestinian lives don't.
And let's not forget that this is all basically perfect for that despicable wannabe autocrat Netanyahu, who up until now has basically prioritized the illegal settlements in the West Bank over safety behind his own borders. Up until now he and Biden had been on the outs over his blatantly corrupt endeavors to overhaul the judiciary but now it's all "the US is behind you and whatever you do 100%, here's a shitload of weapons, go nuts." A perfect chorus of unquestioning rah-rah solidarity that might help him quash any appeals to his judicial "reforms." Quite disgusting. I'm thinking of the latitude 9/11 gave the Bush administration and feeling ill. Realistically one might think he would face blowback for this happening under his watch but that's not what happened with the Bush administration, was it.
Any appearance of moral authority Israel may have had following the attack has already fallen to pieces. They have ordered over a million Gazans to evacuate south, which the UN and humanitarian groups are noting is logistically impossible and would in of itself be a humanitarian disaster, but Israel knows that. They are just making this completely unfeasible evacuation order so that when, inevitably, their bombardment kills scores of civilians (almost certainly far, far more than any Hamas militants) they can wipe their hands of it and say it was collateral damage or that, "if Hamas uses human shields that's on them." Again, the double standard. There is no excuse for Palestinians slaughtering Israeli civilians, but the IDF and illegal settlers regularly slaughtering Palestinian civilians is unfortunate but justified by the Israeli cause (again, when it is noticed at all). They've already started killing journalists who are clearly identified (something they are old sports at by now), have deprived the entirety of Gaza of life sustaining resources, have given organizations like Doctors Without Borders literal hours to evacuate themselves and their patients, and I'm sorry, none of this is worth lending your voice to supporting. They are showing before our eyes how this cycle of violence perpetuates and a key ingredient is basically the entire Western world backing Israel and everything they do. Telling a nation like them that, essentially, anything they do from here on out is justified is unbelievably horrifying and will only lead to devastating loss of civilian life, and regardless of the Israeli framing, that's a fucking tragedy whatever side of the border it's fucking happening on.
Stubby Member
And another outrageous thing about the broad sweeping support of Israel from the west, is that people in the west who express criticism of the Israeli government get framed as being antisemitic. Almost as if this support is supposed to be some misplaced expression of white guilt. Yes, let's condone repeated attempts at genocide, because the perpetrators belong to an ethnic group that were almost completely wiped out for Lebensraum too.
Last edited by stankeybearlover; 10-15-2023 at 01:16 AM.
Active Member
I think it's interesting how you guys point large parts of your criticism/blame concerning this conflict on Israel. This "but Israel..." thing happened a lot in public this week. You guys feel it's reasonable to do this in light of 1300 people being slaughtered by terrorists?
Let's not forget that the IDF usually takes a lot of measures to spare civilian lifes. They warn civilians before bombing a house. It's usually Hamas that won't let those civilians move out of the way, since pictures of dead people are the fuel for their politics. They post that stuff in social media and people go "OMG Israel is terrible!". Also, Hamas deliberately places their commando outposts in civilian areas. One of the biggest of which is build underneath a hospital, for example.
Yet, all I hear is people equating IDF and Hamas, while the former does what it does to protect their people and the latter are willfully using their people as human shields.
Throbbing Member
I have no doubt that Hamas makes sure it's near at least some civilians, just as I am sure that the IDF and Israeli government issue warnings mostly to absolve themselves of any civilians they end up killing. If I seem more damning in my criticism of Israel's government than Hamas, it is because Hamas has already been loudly condemned just about everywhere as a despicable and irredeemable terrorist group while Israel's government is highly equipped and supported by the backing of most of the Western world. A lot of vocal criticism of the Israeli government is either shouted down, deliberately misunderstood, or articulated so poorly by overly-online armchair leftists that it appears to be an endorsement of Hamas.
If the Israeli government and the IDF are all about protecting Israel then they have a lot of questions to answer about how exactly Saturday's attack happened and before you accuse me of blaming Israel and the IDF again you should know their own citizens who survived the massacre are saying very similar things. Netanyahu let Gaza border defenses weaken because he was more focused on expanding the illegal occupation of the West Bank and actively encouraged Hamas's rule in Gaza because he saw their extremism as a firewall against any potential two-state solution. None of that had to do with protecting Israel or its people and it is apparent now these decisions had consequences for them as grave as for the Palestinian people.
Frankly I feel what's unfolding now is illustrating that the IDF and right-wing Israeli government are far better at razing Gaza than exercising the self-defense that is always used to justify their heavy-handed military activity.
Last edited by Deacon Blackfire; 10-15-2023 at 04:56 PM. Reason: damn you typos
Bored
We can debate who is more evil all day.
The real debate should be: what can be done to resolve this once and for all so that innocent people on both side stop dying?
And this is what hurts me the most, as a fellow human being: I don't see a way out of this hatred and violence.
Throbbing Member
For the record (and I really hope this is evident) I am not arguing one side is more evil. I am arguing that one side is more powerful.
BADGERS
Part of the solution definitely involves the US not just shipping more bombs over to an already well armed country just so they can use them on civilians with no access to water or power
Active Member
What makes you so sure about this? Because I think you can't be sure. And I think you're wrong.
tempus est umbra in mente
the question though, is Hamas intentionally using civilians as human shields? How can Israel strike back if that's the case? And what can we do about Iran celebrating Hamas' attack, Turkey failing to condemn it... I agree that genocide isn't the answer (Jesus that feels weird to even type) but what is Israel supposed to do here?
(Unused symbol)
Let's say Hamas took hostages and held them in Israeli territory amongst civilians...would the response be to rain hell and let the chips fall? We know the answer to this.
Active Member
Yes. Ask (or read) any (political) scientist/historian with an expertise in that field.
They developed a tactic called "roof knocking" that involves dropping non-explosive devices on roofs as a prior warning to give civilians time to flee an attack. Just google it. Avoiding civilian deaths is the main reason why Israel is waiting to send their troops into Gaza, for example. They are giving them time to leave that area, while Hamas is actively trying to hold them there - they block roads or detonate cars.
(Unused symbol)
https://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/roof...n-perspective/
and https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...o-longer-norm/
Which states:Regarding the IDF’s attack policy in Gaza, the source clarifies that the “roof knocking” policy, whereby the IDF has previously used text messages, phone calls, or an initial strike on the roof to warn residents of a building that it is about to be struck, is not the system currently applying.
Throbbing Member
You're right, we do. Because so far Israel has not "rained hell" in this current situation. So, no, I doubt they would do it to their own civilians either. But it IS their duty as a nation state to secure their citizens during a war invasion by terrorist jihadists. And even in your above hypothetical, although more specifics would be needed, it is almost a certainty that, yes, innocent Israeli citizens would die as a result of the effort to secure the rest of the nation. War is hell. Anyone expecting 0 innocent dead is quite honestly not living on planet earth.
But your question is very suspicious to me. A much more honest question to ask, that would give you a clearer picture of the moral differences between the two militaries is this...
Let's say Israel took hostages and held them in Hamas territory amongst Palestinian civilians...would the response of Hamas be to rain hell and let the chips fall?
Some of you guys, well, I genuinely do think your heart is in the right place. I applaud your concern for innocent Palestinians, and I share it. But some of these takes are, naive at best.
Much has been made of the size of Israel's military, as if that somehow makes them the bad actor in this war. It's also painted to make it seem as though they could literally just knock these tiny little few terrorist bad guys out with a feather and be done with it.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Densely populated urban areas are the most difficult and complex of battlegrounds.
And even though Hamas is small. They're not THAT fucking small. 1% of the population of Gaza is Hamas militants. That's 20,000 jihadist terrorists just roaming about freely. Ok, and October 7th, those terrorists took the gloves off. Does anybody with a brain REALLY think it's a good idea to just let them off the hook? Do you think that, for example, if Israel had no response at all, that those terrorists would have taken their shiny new batch of 200 hostages and just went off into the sunset and lived happily ever after after killing 1,400 non combatants in an unprovoked siege on a non military population?
So, I'm genuinely curious, if you were in charge, what would you actually do?
It's also worth noting that even if we take the cynical view here and grant that the only reason Israel has to issue warnings is that they need to absolve themselves, that still puts them in a moral category a thousand fold above Hamas. Let that sink in.
There is 0 doubt about this. This is old hat. Jihadists use these tactics specifically to EXPLOIT the moral superiority of the armies they fight, and also to use the lose/lose situation they put the enemy in against them in the eyes of some of the public. They do not value life. Not their own, not their citizens, and certainly not the enemy's.
This concept is extremely difficult to grasp for folks in western nations, but it happens to be the case.
Last edited by burnmotherfucker!; 10-16-2023 at 02:09 PM.
(Unused symbol)
Unsure what all this is then...
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/20...ttacks-on-gaza
https://www.reuters.com/pictures/pic...ck-2023-10-11/
And this is a bullshit response to the suggestion that what the IDF is doing is unacceptable.
Last edited by cdm; 10-16-2023 at 02:19 PM.
Throbbing Member
Terraforming the battleground for the combat that is to come with Hamas. Leveling buildings is about giving Hamas less places that they can ambush from, as well as hitting known weapon facilities. This is why the roof knocking is done so close to the actual strike. Knock too early and Hamas has time to take their supplies and weapons with them. The airstrikes are rarely an attempt to kill, except in the cases where they know Hamas leaders are.
You do realize that if it actually was their intention to rain hell for REAL, there would already be no one in Gaza left alive right?
I'll ask you, what would Hamas have done?
Throbbing Member
No, it's asking you to offer an alternative.
(Unused symbol)
I'm not a military strategist so no I don't have an alternative but if you're telling me the choices are A. "do nothing" and B. "[continued] genocide" and B is the answer because "ah fuck it war is hell" that tells me all I need to know.
Throbbing Member
HOW is THAT your takeaway from my post?
It tells you that I'm attempting to recognize the complexity and nuance of one of the worst situations I've ever seen in my lifetime while you are creating a lunatic fantasy world in which either "nobody do nothing" or "genocide." That tells me all I need to know, thanks.
Active Member
I can't help but wonder what the hostages would want. If saving them would involve taking civilian lives, would they be content with that? Would they feel guilty? I can't project my own opinions on other people, we're all different. But if I'm ever in a situation where it possibly takes the death of civilians to rescue me, please don't save me
I was nobody. Nothing.
Free Palestine. From the River to the Sea.
This isn't a new notion for me: I've likely posted it 50 times on FecesBook/FaceFuck/Meta, or whatever, since I started my account in 2011.
I'll see myself out.
Edit: actually, I won't. Healthy debate on this subject is of high importance. @burnmotherfucker! raises valid points, although we disagree.
We ALL have valid arguments, I think: I didn't spend over ten years in this community so I could talk to idiots.
This whole thing is a horrific jumblefuck.
We're going to see it from different angles, though, obviously.
Last edited by elevenism; 10-19-2023 at 05:47 PM.
Throbbing Member
For the unaware:
https://www.adl.org/resources/backgr...e-will-be-free
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
Last edited by burnmotherfucker!; 10-20-2023 at 12:08 AM.
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