The Smashing Pumpkins

[neorev]

I watched a making of Adore behind the scenes video and James Iha definitely played on the album. He's great when it comes to atmospheric sounds on guitar. He may not have written lyrics or anything, but his playing is definitely on the album. There was lots of footage of Billy, James, and D'arcy in the studio playing. Billy is more about riffs and melodies, James is more about complimenting those sounds with layers and atmosphere. Him, Chamberlin, and Corgan are important to have together for the Pumpkins sound. Hell a lot of Iha's solo album sounded more Pumpkins than Billy's later stuff.

[newmodel87]

I watched a making of Adore behind the scenes video and James Iha definitely played on the album. He's great when it comes to atmospheric sounds on guitar. He may not have written lyrics or anything, but his playing is definitely on the album. There was lots of footage of Billy, James, and D'arcy in the studio playing. Billy is more about riffs and melodies, James is more about complimenting those sounds with layers and atmosphere. Him, Chamberlin, and Corgan are important to have together for the Pumpkins sound. Hell a lot of Iha's solo album sounded more Pumpkins than Billy's later stuff.

I've probably seen that documentary but don't remember it. I just think the idea of The Smashing Pumpkins as a band is overstated. There's a difference between songwriting vs playing on an album. Whatever guitar and bass tracks they recorded for Adore, I'm sure Billy could have easily recorded those parts on his own or added extra textures and layers. I don't doubt that Billy and James bounced ideas off of each other and influenced each other but I haven't seen much evidence that James and D'arcy (in particular) ever played a crucial role in the songwriting department. Didn't Billy have to re-record parts on an earlier album (Siamese Dream I think) because he was dissatisfied with how the other two played?

[Shadaloo]

What's wrong with personas in music? When they had shed their 'normal' look for something darker I had thought this to be far more exciting. I certainly don't always agree with what Billy says but his creativity and ambition to be something greater were leagues above the those two.

Nothing, when it's being done as part of an original concept by people with a solid vision. But the Pumpkins were a well-established multi-platinum act by the late 90's and to start renaming themselves in interviews? I'd bet that literally touring as "Glass And The Machines Of God" would have had them laughed at as copping off Manson's shtick and being ridiculously derivative. That would have been a more embarrassing fashion for the band to die off in, and they'd likely be remembered as meandering and directionless at their end. It'd have been a worse bow out than what occurred, certainly.

Bill does his best work when people are there to check him a bit and help him channel his art and indulgences into a grounded space. When that doesn't happen, you get stuff like Teargarden boxes which include "fool's gold obelisks hand-carved in the shadow of the ruins of Macchu Picchu", or whatever the shit was going on there.



Decoupage kits. Wonderfully remastered demo tapes - sold in cassette format. Bill's eccentricities lead to some weird places, man. And that has its charm, but...not always.

Obviously they contributed to the occasional song but Billy wrote the vast, vast majority. My point is that they tried to make it seem like it was more of a band than it really was. This idea that a 'full' band is aesethetically better than a solo artist or duo has been common throughout music for a very long time. Even Reznor has admitted to this with NIN and other bands have too. But Billy has talked about the issues with other band members extensively and when shit hit the fan he should've just replaced them but out of loyalty and fear of scrutiny he declined to and paid the price. I wonder how much better would The Smashing Pumpkins be if those two had just been replaced with more proficient, professional musicians. Besides, I'll take Adore over any other TSP album anyday; an album that, to my knowledge, didn't include any songwriting credits from James as his ideas primarily went to his solo album.

A band is more than just the music they write - what comes out of the instruments is expressive of the people behind them as much as the writer. And when that handful of songs James had a hand in includes Soma and Mayo, no amount of downplaying is going to make me believe he was replaceable, sorry. If Darcy and James hadn't been around after the band nearly imploded during SD, MCIS wouldn't be the work it is, and that speaks for a lot.

You say he should have replaced them with more proficient and professional musicians, and that is exactly what happened from Zwan onward. Nobody on earth would claim that Darcy is a better bassist than Melissa Auf Der Maur, Paz Lenchantin or the revolving door of bassists that followed, and Jeff is widely known to be far more proficient and a technically superior guitarist to James. But I don't see a single post-2000 album for any Corgan project that's proved to me - hell, I'd say the world at large - that better musicians could necessary make for better albums. Closest case that could be made is for a lot of that unreleased Zwan stuff, really.

To concur with the above; I'd suggest listening to James Iha's Look To The Sky. There's some stuff on there, just as there is on Oceania, that feels seriously Pumpkiny and lord knows what would have happened had they both worked together on it. I'd kill to hear To Who Knows Where performed along with Jimmy and Bill.

Fuck why is this even being debated. Right back to being happy I go

[neorev]

I've probably seen that documentary but don't remember it. I just think the idea of The Smashing Pumpkins as a band is overstated. There's a difference between songwriting vs playing on an album. Whatever guitar and bass tracks they recorded for Adore, I'm sure Billy could have easily recorded those parts on his own or added extra textures and layers. I don't doubt that Billy and James bounced ideas off of each other and influenced each other but I haven't seen much evidence that James and D'arcy (in particular) ever played a crucial role in the songwriting department. Didn't Billy have to re-record parts on an earlier album (Siamese Dream I think) because he was dissatisfied with how the other two played?

That was D'arcy's bass parts. He re-recorded them. Since the departure of Iha, the songwriting has taken a huge hit in post-Machina material. All you have to do is look at the music after Iha's departure to see there's a huge hole needing to be filled. Out of all of the released material post-Machina, you maybe have a solid album if you pick out the best ones. Many songs on Mellon Collie are full band jams as well where not much studio magic was done to overlay or redo parts. There's a ton of amazing material from Pastichio Medley and the demos from that era that show the full band's strength together in the studio. Zeitgeist is the closest we got to a Pumpkins record post-Machina and that was because Chamberlin was on the drums. I would actually like the bassist Nicole from Oceania to return with Corgan, Iha, Shroeder, and Chamberlin... that would be a strong lineup. Or they go back to Melissa who played during Machina Tour. Billy's strength came from having a band in the studio with him. They peaked at Mellon Collie/Aeroplane Flies High era. He needs that push/pull in the studio... that unhinged sound. He needs to get back in the studio with a band and a good producer like Flood again. Flood was able to get something out them that Butch Vig, as good as he is, couldn't get out of them.

[thevoid99]

Well, if this is the closest thing to a classic line-up reunion. I'll take it. If it's just a one-off. I'm cool with that as long as there's that sense that Billy and James are cool with each other again.

[fillow]

Okay, what's next? A photo of Manson with Daisy Berkovitz?

[implanted_microchip]

Okay, what's next? A photo of Manson with Daisy Berkovitz?

D'Arcy and James are going to get married, Manson and Pogo are going to start a side project and Chris Vrenna is going to produce the next NIN album (I actually wish that one would happen)

[newmodel87]

Nothing, when it's being done as part of an original concept by people with a solid vision. But the Pumpkins were a well-established multi-platinum act by the late 90's and to start renaming themselves in interviews? I'd bet that literally touring as "Glass And The Machines Of God" would have had them laughed at as copping off Manson's shtick and being ridiculously derivative. That would have been a more embarrassing fashion for the band to die off in, and they'd likely be remembered as meandering and directionless at their end. It'd have been a worse bow out than what occurred, certainly.

Bill does his best work when people are there to check him a bit and help him channel his art and indulgences into a grounded space. When that doesn't happen, you get stuff like Teargarden boxes which include "fool's gold obelisks hand-carved in the shadow of the ruins of Macchu Picchu", or whatever the shit was going on there.



Decoupage kits. Wonderfully remastered demo tapes - sold in cassette format. Bill's eccentricities lead to some weird places, man. And that has its charm, but...not always.



A band is more than just the music they write - what comes out of the instruments is expressive of the people behind them as much as the writer. And when that handful of songs James had a hand in includes Soma and Mayo, no amount of downplaying is going to make me believe he was replaceable, sorry. If Darcy and James hadn't been around after the band nearly imploded during SD, MCIS wouldn't be the work it is, and that speaks for a lot.

You say he should have replaced them with more proficient and professional musicians, and that is exactly what happened from Zwan onward. Nobody on earth would claim that Darcy is a better bassist than Melissa Auf Der Maur, Paz Lenchantin or the revolving door of bassists that followed, and Jeff is widely known to be far more proficient and a technically superior guitarist to James. But I don't see a single post-2000 album for any Corgan project that's proved to me - hell, I'd say the world at large - that better musicians could necessary make for better albums. Closest case that could be made is for a lot of that unreleased Zwan stuff, really.

To concur with the above; I'd suggest listening to James Iha's Look To The Sky. There's some stuff on there, just as there is on Oceania, that feels seriously Pumpkiny and lord knows what would have happened had they both worked together on it. I'd kill to hear To Who Knows Where performed along with Jimmy and Bill.

Fuck why is this even being debated. Right back to being happy I go

Whether it was official or not, I felt like they had basically already adopted the persona thing with Machina anyways and had already been experimenting with that idea for years. I also would've been ok with another double album since I've never regarded double albums as being a gimmick. I would have rather seen them aim high and fail with another ambitious double album than see them fade out.

You're right that the way a person plays, their approach to playing, can give the song a different feel. And James is definitely more valuable than D'arcy. However, being an established and huge band like The Smashing Pumpkins, Billy easily could have gotten much better musicians and/or more noteable muscians to play with but Corgan's eccentric and questionable behaviour prevented this. The fact that Billy continually recruited female bass players tells you something: the gimmick itself was worth more than talent to him. A revolving door of band members also doesn't help.

I think the reason why newer Smashing Pumpkins' music isn't nearly as good is for the same reasons that, after a few albums, most bands' output typically isn't that great. People change, they lose the fire etc. I can't think of too many bands whose recent output is as strong as their early stuff.

[frankie teardrop]

If James Iha somehow did come back to tour with them, do you think Billy could fucking slow down the old songs he doesn't like to their proper tempo? I've never seen the Pumpkins and I'd really like to, but I refuse to watch him & his scabs butcher my cherished material like they do here:

yeah, well the classic lineup did this constantly, too. check out any mellon collie or machina era bootleg for other sped-up versions of classics.

[Shadaloo]

Whether it was official or not, I felt like they had basically already adopted the persona thing with Machina anyways and had already been experimenting with that idea for years. I also would've been ok with another double album since I've never regarded double albums as being a gimmick. I would have rather seen them aim high and fail with another ambitious double album than see them fade out.

You're right that the way a person plays, their approach to playing, can give the song a different feel. And James is definitely more valuable than D'arcy. However, being an established and huge band like The Smashing Pumpkins, Billy easily could have gotten much better musicians and/or more noteable muscians to play with but Corgan's eccentric and questionable behaviour prevented this. The fact that Billy continually recruited female bass players tells you something: the gimmick itself was worth more than talent to him. A revolving door of band members also doesn't help.

I think the reason why newer Smashing Pumpkins' music isn't nearly as good is for the same reasons that, after a few albums, most bands' output typically isn't that great. People change, they lose the fire etc. I can't think of too many bands whose recent output is as strong as their early stuff.

Now, I can't, and won't assign arbitrary value based directly on perceived musical talent. That strikes me as utterly and completely wrong: You don't need good musicians to make good - or powerful - music. The Sex Pistols could barely play their instruments when they were formed. Neil Young admits that he sucks on guitar, but he knows that what he wants out of it, and he complements the rest of his band perfectly with it when he plays. And that is why I can't abide any member of the band being called 'replaceable' no matter their level of input - they all brought their own style to the table, and what they did together worked.

I'd say there's something of a divide between dressing up like the Pumpkins did in their videos, and then there's dubbing yourself the combination of a role model of some sort and a serial killer, the way that Manson and his merry band did explicitly to make Brian's point about the two sides of celebrity, personality cults, etc. For Machina, the reaction I remember them getting was basically "huh, they're dressing all cyber-metal now. Weird." The Glass/Zero personified concept never really got further than Billy's self-projecting lyrics and the weirdass "Machina Mystery" that was up on the bad's webpage at the time (which IIRC basically asked fans to interpret what story there was). If you'd asked D'Arcy about herself in 1999, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have replied that her name was June or anything.

Machina was going to be a double album, but that got nixed specifically because Virgin records balked at Adore's only selling several million records in comparison to MCIS' multimillion (which in this day and age still strikes me as mind-boggling and hilarious). And I wake up hoping to hear news on the finished, sequenced reissue with a linear plot line...every. single. day.

It's a very tricky business, ascribing the perceived decline of the Pumpkins to any one factor. I think there's a lot of things; lineup changes, Bill's uncertainty as he ages, bad production, lack of restraint. But I've always thought that breaking up Zwan and resuming the use of the Pumpkins name were two awful mistakes, one on top the next. The weight of the name is a colossal struggle; Oceania did not get the respect I think it could have if it were released under Bill's name or Zwan, or what have you. Everything he puts out under the Pumpkins name is going to be held up against a magnifying glass and measured directly against 1987-2000, and that's just an unpleasant prospect. Hell, it'd be if it were just 1993-1996.

[perceptionnexus]

This sucks cuz it's got me dream splooging of a highly unlikely train of events:

1. Darcy comes back, everyone stays sober and they spend 2016 playing shows, getting their groove together again, healing old wounds and writing new stuff, ala veruca salt (with or without jeff, doesn't matter to me. it seems billy's grown fond of him, and he's been in the band for over 10 years now).
2. Early next year they write and record a new LP in Chicago with Butch Vig or Flood producing, and release it in 2017.
3. Spend 2017-2018 doing an absolute final mega tour (with Hum as opening band) and retire the band 30 years from when it first began.

A guy can dream, though.....

[fillow]

I thought Jeff joined SP in 2007 right before Zeitgeist was released..?

Yes. Him, Ginger and Lisa joined for the tour. Album was just BC+JC.

[Shadaloo]

James played with them again last night, and Mike Garson was also present.

[implanted_microchip]

James played with them again last night, and Mike Garson was also present.

This is too much awesomeness for now, good fuck. Now I've absolutely got to get to that Ft. Lauderdale show, just because it seems like Santa Claus might pop up any night now onstage, too.

I have to say I disagree with everyone who thinks the band needs to have some retirement tour. As one of those odd people who got into the band way after the original lineup split, I've loved pretty much everything and would hate to see SP stop out of some sentimentality.

[perceptionnexus]

Yes. Him, Ginger and Lisa joined for the tour. Album was just BC+JC.

Ur right. I get 2005 and 2007 mixed up a lot. Crazy time in my life

[fillow]

Epic gif courtesy of netphoria forums

[newmodel87]

Now, I can't, and won't assign arbitrary value based directly on perceived musical talent. That strikes me as utterly and completely wrong: You don't need good musicians to make good - or powerful - music. The Sex Pistols could barely play their instruments when they were formed. Neil Young admits that he sucks on guitar, but he knows that what he wants out of it, and he complements the rest of his band perfectly with it when he plays. And that is why I can't abide any member of the band being called 'replaceable' no matter their level of input - they all brought their own style to the table, and what they did together worked.

I'd say there's something of a divide between dressing up like the Pumpkins did in their videos, and then there's dubbing yourself the combination of a role model of some sort and a serial killer, the way that Manson and his merry band did explicitly to make Brian's point about the two sides of celebrity, personality cults, etc. For Machina, the reaction I remember them getting was basically "huh, they're dressing all cyber-metal now. Weird." The Glass/Zero personified concept never really got further than Billy's self-projecting lyrics and the weirdass "Machina Mystery" that was up on the bad's webpage at the time (which IIRC basically asked fans to interpret what story there was). If you'd asked D'Arcy about herself in 1999, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have replied that her name was June or anything.

Machina was going to be a double album, but that got nixed specifically because Virgin records balked at Adore's only selling several million records in comparison to MCIS' multimillion (which in this day and age still strikes me as mind-boggling and hilarious). And I wake up hoping to hear news on the finished, sequenced reissue with a linear plot line...every. single. day.

It's a very tricky business, ascribing the perceived decline of the Pumpkins to any one factor. I think there's a lot of things; lineup changes, Bill's uncertainty as he ages, bad production, lack of restraint. But I've always thought that breaking up Zwan and resuming the use of the Pumpkins name were two awful mistakes, one on top the next. The weight of the name is a colossal struggle; Oceania did not get the respect I think it could have if it were released under Bill's name or Zwan, or what have you. Everything he puts out under the Pumpkins name is going to be held up against a magnifying glass and measured directly against 1987-2000, and that's just an unpleasant prospect. Hell, it'd be if it were just 1993-1996.

Talent can be perceived and measured in different ways: song writing skills, technical ability, performing live etc. And certainly there are indeed other factors like chemistry between band members that can affect the band's music. But I'm speaking more to the potential. Amid the years of ever-increasing turmoil, I just don't get why Billy stubbornly stuck with the other bandmates. Despite his tendency to be a bit of a rebel, sometimes I think he actually cares too much how other perceive him and his music. With Machina I find it amusing too and very typical of a clueless big label. I feel like the Machina era could have been so much more but the lack of enthusiasm from his bandmates and the label killed it for him. Ironically, it was Corgan who was telling Manson to go all the way with the Omega and The Mechanial Animals concept which turned out very successful just a couple of years earlier. I'd love to hear Machina as it was intended to be.

With Manson, I'm glad he didn't stubbornly, willfully put up with the likes of Daisy, Gidget and Sara despite his growing disastisfaction and despite myself actually liking Daisy and Gidget. Gidget had drug problems and he wasn't satisfied with Daisy's direction and didn't care much for him as a person, and Sara was an o-k drummer. Ultimately, he found the perfect partner in Twiggy, a reliable drummer in Ginger, and eventually, stability with John 5. Pogo stuck around for years as well. Of course, this is said in hindsight but I really do wonder what would have happened if Billy would have just replaced James and D'arcy earlier and maybe found people best suited for his vision because I don't believe that the others truly were.

[MicheaelElizabeth]

Here are the recent leaks for anyone who missed them.

​https://www.sendspace.com/file/waleei

[october_midnight]

[neorev]

It's good to see Billy genuinely smiling on stage like he can't contain the enjoyment inside with James there. If you ever watch shows when it's just him and his hired guns, you get these little smiles few and far in between instantly followed by a double take and his face changes all serious and sullen all of a sudden. But when Jimmy or James is there, you get these real smiles without the double take. I think Billy really needs James and Jimmy around him so he can just let loose and be himself. He always seems awkward on stage without them.

[implanted_microchip]

It's good to see Billy genuinely smiling on stage like he can't contain the enjoyment inside with James there. If you ever watch shows when it's just him and his hired guns, you get these little smiles few and far in between instantly followed by a double take and his face changes all serious and sullen all of a sudden. But when Jimmy or James is there, you get these real smiles without the double take. I think Billy really needs James and Jimmy around him so he can just let loose and be himself. He always seems awkward on stage without them.

I'd grown used to the stereotype of him being so dismal onstage, and when I saw them for the first time last year in the front row, I was so pleasantly shocked that he was constantly giving off this incredibly joyful energy the whole time. Tons of smiles, covering his eyes and playing one-handed briefly and laughing, just looking like he was totally high on the moment and the energy of the crowd. It was absolutely fantastic. The only reason I could imagine that show being any different from all the ones I'd heard people describe since Oceania or so (when I became a really big fan), is that Jimmy was with him in the band.

I definitely think it has had a really positive effect on him, and also it likely has had a large impact on the audience's mood -- which probably impacts his general attitude by quite a lot while performing. In general it's cool to see this guy who is so famously grumpy having a good time and enjoying his success, playing with his friends and having what actually looks like fun. It makes me a lot more interested in future shows, too.

[neorev]

I'd grown used to the stereotype of him being so dismal onstage, and when I saw them for the first time last year in the front row, I was so pleasantly shocked that he was constantly giving off this incredibly joyful energy the whole time. Tons of smiles, covering his eyes and playing one-handed briefly and laughing, just looking like he was totally high on the moment and the energy of the crowd. It was absolutely fantastic. The only reason I could imagine that show being any different from all the ones I'd heard people describe since Oceania or so (when I became a really big fan), is that Jimmy was with him in the band.

I definitely think it has had a really positive effect on him, and also it likely has had a large impact on the audience's mood -- which probably impacts his general attitude by quite a lot while performing. In general it's cool to see this guy who is so famously grumpy having a good time and enjoying his success, playing with his friends and having what actually looks like fun. It makes me a lot more interested in future shows, too.

I saw them at Jones Beach for the SP/Manson show and they put on a damn good show. They sounded amazing, which usually Jones Beach sounds like shit. But he did have a few back and forth banters with crowd members. At one point, he held his guitar out toward the crowd and said "You want to play?" because someone kept yelling songs for him to play. He also mentioned about people not buying the newer releases. But they still put on a great show. Definitely having one of the original band members with him definitely helps loosen him up and interact.

[armogi]

Here are the recent leaks for anyone who missed them.

​https://www.sendspace.com/file/waleei

thanks a LOT, this is very much appreciated. I was missing quite a few actually, and this includes many of the "recent" new tracks too, great great find and better quality than the youtube rips.

[Shadaloo]

Talent can be perceived and measured in different ways: song writing skills, technical ability, performing live etc. And certainly there are indeed other factors like chemistry between band members that can affect the band's music. But I'm speaking more to the potential. Amid the years of ever-increasing turmoil, I just don't get why Billy stubbornly stuck with the other bandmates. Despite his tendency to be a bit of a rebel, sometimes I think he actually cares too much how other perceive him and his music. With Machina I find it amusing too and very typical of a clueless big label. I feel like the Machina era could have been so much more but the lack of enthusiasm from his bandmates and the label killed it for him. Ironically, it was Corgan who was telling Manson to go all the way with the Omega and The Mechanial Animals concept which turned out very successful just a couple of years earlier. I'd love to hear Machina as it was intended to be.

With Manson, I'm glad he didn't stubbornly, willfully put up with the likes of Daisy, Gidget and Sara despite his growing disastisfaction and despite myself actually liking Daisy and Gidget. Gidget had drug problems and he wasn't satisfied with Daisy's direction and didn't care much for him as a person, and Sara was an o-k drummer. Ultimately, he found the perfect partner in Twiggy, a reliable drummer in Ginger, and eventually, stability with John 5. Pogo stuck around for years as well. Of course, this is said in hindsight but I really do wonder what would have happened if Billy would have just replaced James and D'arcy earlier and maybe found people best suited for his vision because I don't believe that the others truly were.

Honestly, if you have to stick the blame on one person for starting SP 1.0 on the path to destruction and ultimately killing the band, Jimmy's as good a culprit as anybody. The whole band had a 'no drugs' policy by that point after Jimmy's tendency to vanish for days during SD's recording, and he got multiple warnings on the MCIS tour before the overdose that killed Jonathan Melvoin. The band nearly self-destructed right after coming together to make their magnum opus, and that wasn't due to Billy, James or D'Arcy. Things were starting to go well until that happened.

Billy's "my way or the highway" tendencies are also another factor that contributed to the band breaking up, specifically D"Arcy leaving; there's a story that during the last leg of the Arising tour, just before she left, she wanted to do Daydream and sing on it, and Bill shut her down; she was pissed because he'd shit on her for making mistakes, while his own vocals didn't sound that great at times (The '99 Tramps soundboard really does show this in spots). And if I remember right, she was also a good friend of Melvoin's, and there was some tension when Jimmy came back.

As to James, there was an interesting tidbit in the MCIS reissue book that he wouldn't let anybody alter Take Me Down, and was pissed at its placement, that it wound up closing out the first disc (though for the life of me I couldn't picture it anywhere else). You go back to Pisces Iscariot, and there's a long history of relegating the majority of James' songs to B-side status which lasted up through Machina; combine that with all the tensions that had gone on in the band since the MCIS tour and it's understandable he'd be fed up.

To give Bill credit though, there's another story I remember hearing a while back where he tried to acquire or proposed some manner of living space/apartment/house for the four of them to stay in together and learn how to work with each other/become friends again, and James wouldn't have anything to do with it. By all accounts he just wanted to get each show done on the Arising tour done with and move on. And at the end of the last show in 2000, he thanked D'Arcy and basically just left without saying a word to anybody, Bill included.

I'd say Bill probably stuck with them because they knew they could put together great things, he valued their input, knew that they all complimented each other, and - most likely of all - they put up with him just as much as he put up with them. But at the end, they'd all had it. What started as a Corgan/Iha partnership - people forget that - became Billy's band more and more over time. Power struggles, drugs, death (don't forget the girl who died in the Ireland mosh pit), label interference, diminishing returns...it was a whirlwind. Those people all needed to get away from each other at the end.

Machina was also Bill's pseudo-autobiographical account of "A rock star gone mad", and many songs reflect the band splitting up - had he nixed anybody earlier on as you suggest he should have, and moved on with a hand-picked team of professionals, I don't think it's a stretch to say Machina wouldn't even so much as exist. Tension and tragedy made that album, and I don't want to wonder at a possibility where it couldn't even be.

More happy thoughts now:

[newmodel87]

Honestly, if you have to stick the blame on one person for starting SP 1.0 on the path to destruction and ultimately killing the band, Jimmy's as good a culprit as anybody. The whole band had a 'no drugs' policy by that point after Jimmy's tendency to vanish for days during SD's recording, and he got multiple warnings on the MCIS tour before the overdose that killed Jonathan Melvoin. The band nearly self-destructed right after coming together to make their magnum opus, and that wasn't due to Billy, James or D'Arcy. Things were starting to go well until that happened.

Billy's "my way or the highway" tendencies are also another factor that contributed to the band breaking up, specifically D"Arcy leaving; there's a story that during the last leg of the Arising tour, just before she left, she wanted to do Daydream and sing on it, and Bill shut her down; she was pissed because he'd shit on her for making mistakes, while his own vocals didn't sound that great at times (The '99 Tramps soundboard really does show this in spots). And if I remember right, she was also a good friend of Melvoin's, and there was some tension when Jimmy came back.

As to James, there was an interesting tidbit in the MCIS reissue book that he wouldn't let anybody alter Take Me Down, and was pissed at its placement, that it wound up closing out the first disc (though for the life of me I couldn't picture it anywhere else). You go back to Pisces Iscariot, and there's a long history of relegating the majority of James' songs to B-side status which lasted up through Machina; combine that with all the tensions that had gone on in the band since the MCIS tour and it's understandable he'd be fed up.

To give Bill credit though, there's another story I remember hearing a while back where he tried to acquire or proposed some manner of living space/apartment/house for the four of them to stay in together and learn how to work with each other/become friends again, and James wouldn't have anything to do with it. By all accounts he just wanted to get each show done on the Arising tour done with and move on. And at the end of the last show in 2000, he thanked D'Arcy and basically just left without saying a word to anybody, Bill included.

I'd say Bill probably stuck with them because they knew they could put together great things, he valued their input, knew that they all complimented each other, and - most likely of all - they put up with him just as much as he put up with them. But at the end, they'd all had it. What started as a Corgan/Iha partnership - people forget that - became Billy's band more and more over time. Power struggles, drugs, death (don't forget the girl who died in the Ireland mosh pit), label interference, diminishing returns...it was a whirlwind. Those people all needed to get away from each other at the end.

Machina was also Bill's pseudo-autobiographical account of "A rock star gone mad", and many songs reflect the band splitting up - had he nixed anybody earlier on as you suggest he should have, and moved on with a hand-picked team of professionals, I don't think it's a stretch to say Machina wouldn't even so much as exist. Tension and tragedy made that album, and I don't want to wonder at a possibility where it couldn't even be.

More happy thoughts now:

You're definitely right that Jimmy played a factor but I didn't mention him earlier because, as talented as his is, he wasn't on Adore and in my opinion, this did not affect the quality of the music at all; the band simply adapted. I like Jimmy but he should have been kicked out. And more to the point, I think Billy could have moved on without James, and especially D'arcy and the pointless gimmick of female bassists. Thankfully he didn't replace James with another Asian or that would have been very cartoony... oh wait, he kinda did, didn't he? I really don't know if this was coincidence or if a delusional Billy actually thought that an close-enough imitation would please the fans. Maybe he should have just opted for complete look-alikes instead.

I know everyone has got their own opinions and we're coming from different perspectives but I've never liked songs like Take Me Down or Farewell and Goodnight. I don't think they fit on the album at all, as diverse as it the album is. I don't really blame Billy for the placement or exclusion of James' tracks.

I think Machina still could've have been released with whatever contributions James and D'arcy gave to the song writing, but Billy could have just worked with Flood in studio and tweaked the songs and recorded the album without them, hired some new musicians for a tour and to support the concept and imagery. It's fairly common for a band to split up even before an album gets released and indeed the band splitting was inevitable long before they actually did.

[frankie teardrop]

Here are the recent leaks for anyone who missed them.

not the best idea to leave this link lying around... there have been cease and desist letters sent as a result.

[MicheaelElizabeth]

[Shadaloo]

You're definitely right that Jimmy played a factor but I didn't mention him earlier because, as talented as his is, he wasn't on Adore and in my opinion, this did not affect the quality of the music at all; the band simply adapted. I like Jimmy but he should have been kicked out. And more to the point, I think Billy could have moved on without James, and especially D'arcy and the pointless gimmick of female bassists. Thankfully he didn't replace James with another Asian or that would have been very cartoony... oh wait, he kinda did, didn't he? I really don't know if this was coincidence or if a delusional Billy actually thought that an close-enough imitation would please the fans. Maybe he should have just opted for complete look-alikes instead.

I know everyone has got their own opinions and we're coming from different perspectives but I've never liked songs like Take Me Down or Farewell and Goodnight. I don't think they fit on the album at all, as diverse as it the album is. I don't really blame Billy for the placement or exclusion of James' tracks.

I think Machina still could've have been released with whatever contributions James and D'arcy gave to the song writing, but Billy could have just worked with Flood in studio and tweaked the songs and recorded the album without them, hired some new musicians for a tour and to support the concept and imagery. It's fairly common for a band to split up even before an album gets released and indeed the band splitting was inevitable long before they actually did.

Well, moving on without James and Darcy is exactly what he did after they broke up, to mixed results. But here we go about in circles. I'd just posit that the fact that he decided to end the use of the name rather than moving on alone at the time as all that's required - to me at least -as evidence that he himself considered it a group effort at the time to a significant degree. That's good enough for me. As to their contributions on Machina: on MI D'Arcy did some work in there but only a few tracks, and James covered bass for the rest. MII was Melissa, who's a more than capable bassist. So you kind of got your wish halfway?

I actually wonder from time to time, had shit not gone down on the MCIS tour the way it did, what kind of work the band would have put out in 1998, whether it would have been quite as somber as Adore turned out to be. '97's The End Is The Beginning Is The End has always been one of my favorite tracks, and I kinda wish things had gone more along those lines. Surely Bill would still have had divorce and losing his mom to contend with and emote over, but to have written TEITBITE even after all that...makes me wonder if Adore couldn't have turned out slightly more of a rocker - not that I'm complaining much.

As for touring without the rest of the band...nah. A lot of people now are used to looking at the group these days as Corgan and hired guns but that just wasn't the prevailing mood at the time, not at all. People lost their shit with happy when Jimmy came back; the public saw that band as a unit, and Corgan was already known for being something of an egomaniac. I don't think it would have gone over well. The press, who he had an already acrimonious relationship with, would have spun it as the ultimate "I am the band" angle to the Nth degree. I think he made the right choice by having one last big concert and bowing out.

I like James' songs, but I don't dispute their placement either, really. IMO he couldn't really sing worth a damn until Adore's Summer, and his lyrics tend towards the overly religious. I do like them as songs, though. I just wouldn't take anything of PI or TAFH and put it on SD or MCIS or vice versa - but I wouldn't move Take Me Down or Farewell (a collaboration with Bill) from their spots for the world. Always thought the mood of TMD segued nicely into the nighttime side of MCIS, and Farewell is a great album closer. The only song I've really got a problem with on the whole album is Tales Of A Scorched Earth. Should have swapped that with Cherry or something.

[perceptionnexus]

I actually wonder from time to time, had shit not gone down on the MCIS tour the way it did, what kind of work the band would have put out in 1998, whether it would have been quite as somber as Adore turned out to be. '97's The End Is The Beginning Is The End has always been one of my favorite tracks, and I kinda wish things had gone more along those lines. Surely Bill would still have had divorce and losing his mom to contend with and emote over, but to have written TEITBITE even after all that...makes me wonder if Adore couldn't have turned out slightly more of a rocker - not that I'm complaining much.

I remember that the shift in mood was a big topic when Adore was released. Seem to remember reading in an interview from around 1998 he and James talked about how they were just kind of burned out from loud guitars after getting off touring for Mellon Collie, or something along those lines. I'm sure Jimmy's absence had to have had a great deal to do with the direction of the songwriting, though. In retrospect, it probably helped give Adore a lot of its character.

I was surprised at the sound of the album when it came out, cause the year before electronica was getting more mainstream, and they had released "TEITBITE" for Batman and Robin, and "Eye" for Lost Highway, really electronic influenced songs. My friends and I figured their next album was likely going to sound like that, as well. Then I remember popping the CD in the first time and the first song being "To Sheila", it was kind of a kick ass mindfuck.

[neorev]

I love Adore. I was a huge fan when it came out. Mellon Collie and Adore are my favorite albums from them. There are lots of electronic Adore b-sides to make your own electronic Adore, such as Waiting, Saturnine, Blissed And Gone, Do You Close Your Eyes, etc.