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Thread: The Feminist Thread

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    I'm sorry but that is bullshit. Don't excuse a man's behavior on biology when it comes down to societal conditions.

    Also, this conversation is heteronormative as fuck.
    I totally agree men should control their behavior. But, do you know that starting from puberty, when hetero men think of an attractive woman, let's say at night before sleep, they get an erection. That is biological...

    EDIT: I see what you're driving at. Men at large need a comprehensive education on women. Sometimes change happens just from the acquisition of knowledge. Either way, there are changes that should be made.

    What I propose is that we begin with biology. State the differences and similarities between men and women. Then we move on to biologically-driven instincts and behaviors. Then we move on to social conditioning.
    Last edited by cashpiles (closed); 05-15-2016 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #482
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    Lol, I'm not educating a grown ass man what is acceptable behavior.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    ok... I just want women to know that this turns men on... it's a fact that some women may find useful/important.

    I'm going with the respect for one another's realities to direct my behavior. It's also a lens through which we can look at feminist issues.

    I just want to know. Do you think men should respect women's realities? If so, do you think women should respect men's realities?
    A lens through which we can look at feminist issues?

    You don't need a lens for that. Feminism goes something like this: "women and men should be treated as equals, and if they're not, then that's an issue that feminists would want to address".

    And to answer your last question: no, I think only one gender should respect the other, but not the other way around. (Sorry, I really needed at least one sarcastic wise ass comment to lighten this up a little.)

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by orestes View Post
    Lol, I'm not educating a grown ass man what is acceptable behavior.
    you don't have to.. but maybe it should become part of our public school's curriculum

  5. #485
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    What should be?

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    What should be?
    Everything that the feminists want to see corrected in men's behavior.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    I totally agree men should control their behavior. But, do you know that starting from puberty, when hetero men think of an attractive woman, let's say at night before sleep, they get an erection. That is biological...

    What I propose is that we begin with biology. State the differences and similarities between men and women. Then we move on to biologically-driven instincts and behaviors. Then we move on to social conditioning.
    What part of this are you failing to grasp? Biology doesn't have anything to do with respect. When you get a hard on, keep it in your pants and don't catcall the person whose image gave you that boner. It's perfectly healthy to get stiff when you're attracted to someone. It is NOT healthy to catcall that person, force yourself on them, etc. There's no need to get into our chromosomes and who gets off on what. Respecting your fellow human beings should be a given.

    Here's all the social conditioning you need: parents, raise your goddamn kids to be respectful people. Raise them to call out people who aren't. Raise them to prefer being singled out for doing the right thing instead of doing the wrong thing just to fit in. Non-parents: try it out on your colleagues or friends. I've called out a number of people on blatantly sexist talk. Not in loud shouty voices, but in a sort of "dude, seriously?" kind of questioning. Does it make me less popular? Hell yeah it does. But I'd rather be unpopular than condone misogynistic fucktards.

  8. #488
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    Yeah, I love how men get all of these social passes/shoved into these boxes of "how hard it is to control their urges" whereas queer women are just like "...?"
    Last edited by playwithfire; 05-16-2016 at 01:40 AM.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    maybe it should become part of our public school's curriculum
    If you're saying that public schools should be teaching feminism to our kids, then hey, that sounds pretty great to me!

  10. #490
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    I'm totally against dumping basic education, common sense and human decency on overburdened, overworked teachers and educators.

    Those things are part of a parent's role.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    I'm totally against dumping basic education, common sense and human decency on overburdened, overworked teachers and educators.

    Those things are part of a parent's role.
    If feminist ideas were common sense, wouldn't everyone follow them?

    It will take huge media penetration to reach all the parents.
    Last edited by cashpiles (closed); 05-16-2016 at 01:07 PM.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    If feminist ideas were common sense, wouldn't everyone follow them?

    It will take huge media penetration to reach all the parents.
    no, because people have been conditioned for YEARS against the ideas and ideals of feminism. they ARE common sense, but a lot of people ignore what should be common sense in favor of what's EASY.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post
    no, because people have been conditioned for YEARS against the ideas and ideals of feminism. they ARE common sense, but a lot of people ignore what should be common sense in favor of what's EASY.
    this.
    i would also add "and what's 'normal'"

  14. #494
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    to me it is pretty basic, and this is how i am raising my two sons:
    you are responsible for your reactions, including any that are hormonally driven. if you see a woman dressed in nothing/bathing suit/short dress/astronaut suit/clown suit and looking at her makes you get an erection...that doesn't mean you get to touch her or assume she is wanting your attention (unless she walks right up to you and says "hi" or "fuck me" <-that is a joke, btw...that doesn't actually happen in real life because our society is too immature still.) or anything other than you found someone attractive and it made you hard. end of story. the story only changes if she approaches you...then: you don't assume she wants you to touch her. you pay attention to her body language..is she leaning AWAY from you? is she leaning IN to you? you don't, at ANY POINT, assume OR expect anything. if she is drunk or on drugs, don't do anything other than (hopefully) keep an eye to make sure some goof isn't going to take advantage of her, or try to get her friends to take her home, etc. you try to help the drunk/drugged girl(s). (no, it doesn't matter if she got herself into that state. so what? it means she made a bad choice, it doesn't mean you also make a bad choice because an unfair "advantage' is there.) if she wants you to do x/y/z (sexual acts), she will tell you. if she doesn't...well, maybe she does and maybe she doesn't want to but it is not up to you to deduce that, and you point your erection toward "no". if you are actively doing something sexual, because she was interested and clearly stated so, and she then decides she does not want to...you stop. you are done. who cares why she stopped. you aren't going to die from sexual frustration, no matter how much it just might feel that way. and you can choose to not go out with her again, or find out why she stopped, or whatever. the point is that you never assume, you never expect...
    i am not responsible for anyone else, nor am i responsible for their reactions and actions. regardless of what i wear, how i smell, if i flirt, how i dance. none of it. no woman is. no man is.
    if i see a fucking stunningly hot man with a righteous ass and it gets me damp, i know that the reaction is MINE, not his. and i really don't understand how anyone can think that how someone else presents themselves makes that someone responsible for how anyone else responds to it.
    i don't see this as feminist, or a feminist issue. this is basic personal responsibility.
    i don't CARE if certain clothes turn men on. that is their problem, not mine. nor any other woman.
    Last edited by Lew; 05-18-2016 at 05:47 PM.

  15. #495
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    here is a simple solution for men (and women) who cannot control their reactions to the 'attractiveness' of others: blind yourself.
    done.
    why not? in some parts of the world women have to be covered up because men 'just can't control their basic urges'. well, we are 'civilized' here, right? so let's do the opposite! let's provide sharpened stakes, at convenient street locations, so you can poke your eyes out before you infringe on someone else's personal rights.
    sweet. glad to have solved this for us all.
    ;p
    Last edited by Lew; 05-18-2016 at 08:26 PM. Reason: quotation marks done be gone

  16. #496
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    unfortunately, a large proportion of women still think it's the man's job to approach or women feel too shy to approach a man. I have approached 95 percent of my ex-girlfriends. Only one ex-girlfriend initially approached me. You can't say my ex-girlfriends were unhappy that I approached them. Whether it be the woman or man, someone has to approach first.
    Last edited by cashpiles (closed); 05-18-2016 at 07:53 PM.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    unfortunately, a large proportion of women still think it's the man's job to approach or women feel too shy to approach a man. I have approached 95 percent of my ex-girlfriends. Only one ex-girlfriend initially approached me. You can't say my ex-girlfriends were unhappy that I approached them. Whether it be the woman or man, someone has to approach first.
    cashpiles, yes someone has to approach the other...fine enough...but if you take the initiative and approach and are in any way, shape or form, told "no"...what do *you* do?
    this is where problems start for a lot of women (yes, and men). being denied, which hurts any human, can quickly turn into a whole host of fucked up ugliness ranging from "you bitch, you were lucky i said hi to you" to "if you don't go out with me, i am bringing a gun to school tomorrow and i will shoot you" to "i deserve to fuck you" to etc etc. that first one? that one is pretty popular. is it as bad as number 2 and 3? no. but it still doesn't change the fact that HOW people CHOOSE to react and act is what the main problem is. and it feeds back into your confusion over respecting people (i find that bra top boner inducing, you shouldn't titillate me like that, it isn't fair....vs....i like this bra top, it makes me feel good, sure hope nobody is going to somehow see my fashion choices as their excuse to harrass/hurt/shame me). if you approach women respectfully, if you take rejection respectfully, if you take acceptance respectfully, if you choose to be a decent person to other people, whether or not they induce erections or crotch dampness in you, then you are golden.
    look, i don't know a single woman who thinks it is the man's job to approach them...i am 44 and have a large number of female friends, single and married, ranging from their 20's to their 60's, and have never heard any of them say they feel that way. i also have a niece, with little female friends, who is 13 and has fallen in love ten million times this year...she also does not feel it is the man's job to approach females.
    i know plenty of shy women, and shy men. does that mean they have to sit there and wait for someone to approach them? maybe. choice and all. but still, no matter who approaches who...just don't be a fucking shyster, don't pawn your issues off on someone else, don't expect anything, take responsibility for your actions, your words, yourself. really...matriarchy..patriarchy...fuck it all...just be decent.

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    A thing I think everyone should do, which is trickier than it sounds and I certainly don't do perfectly, is to assume positive intent. So, trying to do that here.

    While *you* would probably do the "c'mere" thing to anyone, or ask a known coworker to make you coffee vs. a new person, behavior like that can and does sometimes come from sexist thinking patterns in the workplace. The amount of women who can attest to having things like making the coffee, or planning a party, or grabbing lunch, or domestic stuff fall to them in the workplace due to their gender (that link being from Jezebel is irrelevant, the stories are pretty infuriating) is pretty significant. So, I can understand a woman feeling defensive about that.

    I'm really fortunate, that despite working in software, I work in a place with really thoughtful people who don't do this shit. But if someone asked me to do something like that, I may think about it for a second. And then I'd assume positive intent, but like, that awareness is there.

    Re: your last comment. I wouldn't assume it's a previous poor relationship with a man thing, that assumption itself is potentially a little problematic. I'd chock it up to her being a very defensive person (maybe not always fairly), but that perhaps some of that defensiveness is a reasonable reaction to the lived experiences of women.

    Fwiw, I would be pretty not-keen on a male coworker referring to me and my female coworkers as "girls." "Guys" is so much more gender neutral (though I try to stick to y'all since it's still not always well received by everyone), and like, that term doesn't exist in a vacuum. Like maybe he doesn't mean anything by it, but there are plenty of sexist folks who have talked down to their female colleagues with that language, and unless someone can read their intent/context, it can be received badly.
    RE: Assuming positive intent. I like that, and I understand. In my case, I believe I'm known to be quite fair around the office, it's what I always mean to push for in life anyway. Rachel and I have known each other through various life issues for the year+ we've been working together, and, again--she admits to always helping herself to my coffee creamer. I don't have a problem with that. I don't like getting into an argument over something potentially petty, which is an added ingredient to where I'm coming from in my original post.

    To clear it up--I'm not making an assumption with her stories of a bad relationship or bad run-ins with guys. It's only vague recollections I have, because she didn't really go into detail, but some things happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew View Post
    personally, i loathe being referred to as a girl. i am almost 44 years old. i am a woman.
    using "guy" or "guys' is not the same as saying "boy".
    i don't think many men would like being called "boys".
    as to the coffee thing: yeah, i get why she questioned it. it doesn't sound much like she was upset, just curious, based on the way you worded it...
    look, there are so many little insidious gender based inequalities that just don't seem to want to exit the collective unconscious or conscious. so, though it may seem innocent enough her offering to get you a coffee vs you asking for one, i can get why it may irk her...and you.
    honestly, i would look more at what my reactions to her were based on rather than what you speculate may be why she reacts the way she does. literally. if this were me, i would be looking at everything she does that bothers me and then determine what it is about ME and my experiences and perspective that has me reacting to her.
    I take that to heart.

    And you're right--the other side of the coin here is indeed "boy", not "guy". I completely forgot "gal" is to "guy". In general I feel can stand to examine my wordage some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    Counterpoint though, in a work environment where the age ranges between 25 and 60, I find it okay to refer to the male and female population as "the boys" and "the girls".
    I'm almost 40, wholeheartedly agree that I'm a man, not a boy, and I speak to women, regardless of the age (yeah, I very rarely chat with teens, not much of this around me), but referring to a group in a light-hearted manner as "boys" and "girls" doesn't really bother me. Individually it's a big no-no, but otherwise, whatever...
    Honestly, I don't have a firm issue with being called a "boy", but it obviously completely depends on where it's coming from. With or without any context, it's clear it varies person to person with what they do and do not want to be referred to as. There's no getting around that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew View Post
    also: it seem to me that men and women are becoming more sensitive...does this mean that we are all *thinking* more..or *reacting* more? just curious what y'all think.
    I have no clue.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashpiles View Post
    ok... I just want women to know that this turns men on
    #notallmen

  20. #500
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    Wait, why are we having a discussion about feminism with cashpiles?

  21. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lew View Post
    cashpiles, yes someone has to approach the other...fine enough...but if you take the initiative and approach and are in any way, shape or form, told "no"...what do *you* do?
    this is where problems start for a lot of women (yes, and men). being denied, which hurts any human, can quickly turn into a whole host of fucked up ugliness ranging from "you bitch, you were lucky i said hi to you" to "if you don't go out with me, i am bringing a gun to school tomorrow and i will shoot you" to "i deserve to fuck you" to etc etc. that first one? that one is pretty popular. is it as bad as number 2 and 3? no. but it still doesn't change the fact that HOW people CHOOSE to react and act is what the main problem is. and it feeds back into your confusion over respecting people (i find that bra top boner inducing, you shouldn't titillate me like that, it isn't fair....vs....i like this bra top, it makes me feel good, sure hope nobody is going to somehow see my fashion choices as their excuse to harrass/hurt/shame me). if you approach women respectfully, if you take rejection respectfully, if you take acceptance respectfully, if you choose to be a decent person to other people, whether or not they induce erections or crotch dampness in you, then you are golden.
    look, i don't know a single woman who thinks it is the man's job to approach them...i am 44 and have a large number of female friends, single and married, ranging from their 20's to their 60's, and have never heard any of them say they feel that way. i also have a niece, with little female friends, who is 13 and has fallen in love ten million times this year...she also does not feel it is the man's job to approach females.
    i know plenty of shy women, and shy men. does that mean they have to sit there and wait for someone to approach them? maybe. choice and all. but still, no matter who approaches who...just don't be a fucking shyster, don't pawn your issues off on someone else, don't expect anything, take responsibility for your actions, your words, yourself. really...matriarchy..patriarchy...fuck it all...just be decent.
    Shit, what kind of reality do you live in? Never heard a bloke react to a rejection like that and can't believe you don't know of a single female who expects to be approached rather than the other way around, despite you having "a large number of female friends". You're either in shitsville or I'm calling bulllllllshit.

  22. #502
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    Don't worry buddy I got u

    gj buddy nice work

  23. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmya View Post
    Shit, what kind of reality do you live in? Never heard a bloke react to a rejection like that and can't believe you don't know of a single female who expects to be approached rather than the other way around, despite you having "a large number of female friends". You're either in shitsville or I'm calling bulllllllshit.
    it would appear i, and many many many other women, do in fact live in "shitsville". you can find shitsville in every country on this planet.

    so i will return this to you:
    what kind of reality do you live in? i would surely like to visit it sometime, this place where rejection causes a simple "hey. thanks for being honest", and where my large number of female friends, relatives and acquaintances all would be such novelties due to having no issue approaching men. in 2016 no less.

    you can call it what you want. i speak of experiences i, and every single woman i know, has had.

    you can also, as you did above, drop in and make a sweeping statement, without actually weighing in on the conversation.

  24. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Don't worry buddy I got u

    gj buddy nice work
    you aren't going to go and be logical here, are you? ;p
    xxxooo

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    Yeah I've seen women being called "fucking whores" for refusing to even react to catcall or to pay attention to guys who ask for their number (at best) or to get their cock sucked (average occurrence).
    The guys aren't even trying to seduce, they're sitting on their ass demanding sex, basically, and they don't appreciate that their minimal effort isn't rewarded with instant cock gobbling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    Yeah I've seen women being called "fucking whores" for refusing to even react to catcall or to pay attention to guys who ask for their number (at best) or to get their cock sucked (average occurrence).
    The guys aren't even trying to seduce, they're sitting on their ass demanding sex, basically, and they don't appreciate that their minimal effort isn't rewarded with instant cock gobbling.
    They're not even expecting anything for the most part, they're just being subhuman animals antagonizing woman the same way little kids and douches tap on the glass at a zoo.

  27. #507
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    Worse actually, kids don't attack kangaroos when said kangaroos don't give a fuck about the tapping and shouting.

  28. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    Worse actually, kids don't attack kangaroos when said kangaroos don't give a fuck about the tapping and shouting.
    If I were king I would chop off the hands of the people that did that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lew View Post
    it would appear i, and many many many other women, do in fact live in "shitsville". you can find shitsville in every country on this planet.

    so i will return this to you:
    what kind of reality do you live in? i would surely like to visit it sometime, this place where rejection causes a simple "hey. thanks for being honest", and where my large number of female friends, relatives and acquaintances all would be such novelties due to having no issue approaching men. in 2016 no less.

    you can call it what you want. i speak of experiences i, and every single woman i know, has had.

    you can also, as you did above, drop in and make a sweeping statement, without actually weighing in on the conversation.
    I live in Australia, where I'm sure shit like this happens but it is most definitely not the norm. I can't even comprehend something like that happening as often as you claim.

  30. #510
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    Imagine having to live it.

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