The Smashing Pumpkins

[neorev]

Come on, dude, just stop. What is this, the National Enquirer? Who cares?

If you hate Corgan SO much, you’re now just trolling in this thread. Definitive trolling.

What? You're the one who quoted me to say Billy dated Courtney before Kurt. I just showed how Courtney met Kurt first and she said she always had a crush on Kurt since. Billy pissed her off and she left him and ended up with Kurt, Billy's rival. Why are you so offended by this? They've openly talked about this.

Hate? What hate? If you're girl leaves you for her crush who is also another rival rock star who is getting more praise, of course the dude is gonna get jealous. Billy’s jealousy of Kurt Cobain and his fame is pretty damn clear. I'm not saying anything controversial here. It has nothing to do with hate, but history and from these people's own words. Courtney said he was a dick.

Trolling? What, with facts? I'm starting to think you do not understand the concept of trolling. It's called a discussion. Is this not allowed here? So sensitive.

How about this... don't quote me, don't respond to me, don't talk to me. Unless you are here to wanna start shit. The only troll seems to be you.

[allegro]

What? You said Billy dated Courtney before Kurt. I just showed how Courtney met Kurt first and she said she always had a crush on him since. Billy pissed her off and she left him and ended up with Kurt, Billy's rival. Why are you so offended by this?

You said, “He wanted to be Kurt Cobain so bad he had to fuck Courtney Love.”

Now you’re implying that Billy knew that Love had a crush on Kurt and ... wtf is this, Bachelor Island?

Kurt and Courtney were like Sid and Nancy.

You add a bunch of details that are unknown. “Rivals,” for instance. Love says she didn’t like Corgan because he couldn’t pay for her plane ticket. He lived in Chicago. That was never going to work, anyway. The rest of what you wrote is something from All My Children. Surmised “jealousy,” etc. What’s the purpose of that in this thread other than assumed negative shit about Corgan and a dead guy, neither of whom you know? And none of which is relevant to anything? And happened over 25 years ago?

[neorev]

You said, “He wanted to be Kurt Cobain so bad he had to fuck Courtney Love.”

Now you’re implying that Billy knew that Love had a crush on Kurt and ... wtf is this, Bachelor Island?

Kurt and Courtney were like Sid and Nancy.

You add a bunch of details that are unknown. “Rivals,” for instance. Love says she didn’t like Corgan because he couldn’t pay for her plane ticket. He lived in Chicago. That was never going to work, anyway. The rest of what you wrote is something from All My Children. Surmised “jealousy,” etc. What’s the purpose of that in this thread other than assumed negative shit about Corgan and a dead guy, neither of whom you know?

Yes, rivals. Billy thinks Nirvana's success stifled their success at the time...
https://tonedeaf.thebrag.com/billy-c...pkins-success/

Billy has said him and Kurt did not get along. And here is a direct quote from Billy himself...

“No. In the purest sense of the word, we were competitors. He and I were the top two scribes, and everybody else was a distant third.”

And now what were you saying about adding details that are unknown? Just because YOU don't know it doesn't make it unknown to everyone else.

Maybe you'll just call me troll again because I presented another fact.

[allegro]

Edit: Nevermind. Please disregard.

[neorev]

That article describes pressure from the labels on those bands to do good or the bands would be back working at Burger King.

As far as “scribes,” that’s just Billy being Billy, typically overselling his art.

Funny how you neglect to mention Billy using the word "competitor." (Nice update to your post after I pointed that out)

Billy opens up being suicidal because of Nirvana's success
https://www.nme.com/news/music/billy...uccess-1996753

Billy and Kurt were rivals. History seems to know this, but you.

I'm done with your nonsense, troll. You update your posts when I present facts proving you wrong.

P.S. a tweet from Billy to Courtney...

"My face is my face, my heart is my heart, my money is my money. Oh, and my songs are MY songs. If you can't write your own songs maybe you should just be happy that you fooled someone into doing your work for you. Maybe you should go [somewhere] nice [and] live off your husband's money, [you] know, the money he made for writing all those great songs."

Nope, Billy is not angry about Courtney or jealous here at all lol...
https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-courtney-love

[allegro]

10-4

[neorev]

Here's another little unknown detail...

The time Billy called transgender rights activist and guitar pedal maker Devi Ever a "he/she" and "ugly pig and he'll "knock [her] f*cking lights out" and then "sue [her] for so much [she'll] never be able to afford so much as to even make a f*cking guitar cable."

He deleted his tweet, but...


He then took it to Facebook messages and it gets worse...

“you ugly piece of shit…if i ever run into you, anywhere, at anytime, for as long as i live, i will knock your fucking lights out. don’t ever come near me, and if i hear even one more peep out of you in public about me, or the band, or the members of the band, i am gonna sue you for so much you’ll never be able to afford so much as to even make a fucking guitar cable. [sic]”
“you fucked up, you know it, so eat shit, shut the fuck up and accept you’ve attacked someone who tried to HELP YOU. but addicts and self-destructive people like you who HATE THEMSELVES must turn their hate out. if this is what you have to do to not kill your unhappy self, well then i’d say it was a wise decision. beyond that, you are fucking lame, dumb, and so so ugly. [sic]”

https://www.queerty.com/smashing-pum...y-pig-20110901

https://www.grunge.com/28276/dark-tr..._campaign=clip


And there was the other time he called a transgendered person a shapeshifter. I'm guessing he was referring to this incident.

Another little trans story from Billy's blog...
One cool evening, I run into someone I see regularly out and about...we get to talking, and one thing leads to another, and she invites me back to her apartment...she makes me some soup, and after I am fed full, pulls me into her bed...the lights are turned off, and we start kissing...each time I try to touch her ‘down there’, she moves away from me and tenses up...this goes on for about 10 minutes until I finally ask if there is a problem...she says "there is something I have to tell you", and proceeds to tell me that she is a he...I jump up and flip on the light...she/he says "look, it’s not a big deal, I won’t tell anyone, please stay, I’ll do anything you want me to do"...I beg off politely, saying it’s not really my trip, and I’m boom out the door, on the street laughing to myself (how could I not know! Oops...) it occurs to me that I always thought she was a kind of weird looking girl anyway...I walked the 20 minutes home in the middle of the night, and was relieved to get back safe...I go inside, walk to the bathroom and throw on the light, and gasp when I see the massive hickie on my neck...of course, the next day the band is rehearsing, and when they see the mark, ask who I had ended up with...I lie and say it was a tourist type girl who had already left town...after a few weeks, friends start coming up and asking me if I had slept with the he/she...I feign ignorance at the whole matter, but I start to get angry because I felt I had been duped innocently, acted honorably, and now some sort of revenge was being played out...after a couple more weeks of this, I finally pulled "her" aside and said not so politely that if he didn’t stop telling people what had happened, that I would break both his arms and his legs...and that was the end of that...

https://billycorgan.livejournal.com/11224.html

[allegate]

[Disassociative]

Can we go back to talking about Machina and Cyr and stuff please instead of this back and forth fighting. Threads gonna get Manson’d and I don’t want to miss out on the Machina updates Shadaloo is posting because you two are at each other’s throats. Neither is going to change the others opinion so what’s the point? Cyr is a divisive album and people don’t need to be labeled as a hater or “not getting it” for not liking it.

[WorzelG]

Stern has been praising Trent almost every day for months. Probably desperate to get him on the show. Billy bot said specifically he and Trent "do not get along".....Then when Howard pushed him for details, he started backtracking and complaining about how the last time he did the show he said Eddie Vedder was a phony and he got decimated for it so he didn't wanna get into it. So he rambled for 5 minutes all this nonsensical stuff basically implying Trent was a phony....He was clearly scared to come out and outright diss Trent because he knew Trent and his dedicated guard dog fanbase (us) would tear into him like a pit bull going after prime rib

Oh yeah he also said Chris Cornell was an asshole to him for no reason and he doesn't think Cornell killed himself and threw shade at Soundgarden saying that if Cornell did kill himself, it was probably because they were doing a "shitty theater tour" and were not nearly as big as they used to be. Bold words coming from a guy who couldnt crack the top 50 of the Billboard 200 and was playing half empty theaters on the last Pumpkins tour. King Animal charted at number 5 and the last SG tour was sold out every night

I’m sure I watched a Howard Stern segment (although I can’t find it now) where he thinks NIN is the best of the 90s bands, he always gets guests saying controversial things though as that’s clearly his thing!

Did he say why he thinks Cornell didn’t kill himself? He does seem a bit of a conspiracy theorist, yet he is a sycophant to Courtney Love and her version of Kurt Cobain even though Buzz Osborne outright said he didn’t think Cobain killed himself and that he wanted to divorce Courtney (which of course was not in that Montage of Heck Courtney whitewashing film making out her and Cobain’s shitty druggy marriage was the love affair of the century)

http://rocknyc.live/the-melvins-buzz...-bullshit.html

[versusreality]

Yes, Stern is a big NIN fan

[neorev]

Can we go back to talking about Machina and Cyr and stuff please instead of this back and forth fighting. Threads gonna get Manson’d and I don’t want to miss out on the Machina updates Shadaloo is posting because you two are at each other’s throats. Neither is going to change the others opinion so what’s the point? Cyr is a divisive album and people don’t need to be labeled as a hater or “not getting it” for not liking it.

The track I'm really waiting to hear remixed and remastered is Home...


I don't think Billy has mentioned this track yet in his Machina updates posts

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

I’m sure I watched a Howard Stern segment (although I can’t find it now) where he thinks NIN is the best of the 90s bands, he always gets guests saying controversial things though as that’s clearly his thing!

Did he say why he thinks Cornell didn’t kill himself? He does seem a bit of a conspiracy theorist, yet he is a sycophant to Courtney Love and her version of Kurt Cobain even though Buzz Osborne outright said he didn’t think Cobain killed himself and that he wanted to divorce Courtney (which of course was not in that Montage of Heck Courtney whitewashing film making out her and Cobain’s shitty druggy marriage was the love affair of the century)

http://rocknyc.live/the-melvins-buzz...-bullshit.html

He did say Trent was a great songwriter, so at least he's not 100% delusional yet.....He wouldn't go into detail about the Cornell stuff......I used to think Kurt was murdered and all that. Now I realize the guy was a massive heroin addict who suffered from depression and suicidal tendencies. Roddy from Faith No More said he was driving around with Kurt a week before Kurt's suicide and Kurt was trying to jump out of the moving van going 60mph in the middle of the highway. As much as I despise Courtney, I don't think she had anything to do with it.

[WorzelG]

He did say Trent was a great songwriter, so at least he's not 100% delusional yet.....He wouldn't go into detail about the Cornell stuff......I used to think Kurt was murdered and all that. Now I realize the guy was a massive heroin addict who suffered from depression and suicidal tendencies. Roddy from Faith No More said he was driving around with Kurt a week before Kurt's suicide and Kurt was trying to jump out of the moving van going 60mph in the middle of the highway. As much as I despise Courtney, I don't think she had anything to do with it.

WTF, just read about the Roddy/ Kurt connection and Courtney was in Faith No More? Was there any band she wasn’t involved with?

[allegate]

Hole?

ba-dum-tish.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

WTF, just read about the Roddy/ Kurt connection and Courtney was in Faith No More? Was there any band she wasn’t involved with?

Courtney dated Roddy in the mid 80's very briefly. She sung for FNM at a couple shows around that time before they hired Chuck to be their first official singer. Roddy still is good friends with her to this day. I know he was hanging with her and Kurt a lot in 92/93......Probably not a coincidence Roddy had a big heroin problem around '93.......Apparently he got clean in '94 and tried to help Kurt do the same. Hence the Jeep story

[Shadaloo]

From the other day, here you can hear This Time being played in sections back and forth while the camera shows the track sheet.

-Home: Recorded May 19th, `99. Masters present. Live take with live vocals, Billy on acoustic, Jimmy on the kit, James on bass. With live takes, you need to navigate around the instruments bleeding past the vocals, bass bleeding into drum mics, or drums bleeding into bass mikes, etc. He went live and showed off the track sheet. There are four Mellotron bits, and something called "Zep mics", whatever function those served, Billy wasn't sure. Navigating the track sheet is confusing at times, remembering what was done where. According to Howard Willing the floor toms are distorted and unusable for the mix. First overdub session on June 5 using Pro Tools-copied drums from first session. Second overdub session on July 23, ran the bass through some delay and distortion. The overdub sessions were not used on Machina II's rough mix. Billy calls the lack of more sessions unfortunate, as he wishes they could have worked on the song more. He elaborated that once the song didn't make the Machina 1 cut, they didn't give it much in the way of extra studio time. I'm guessing that goes for all the MII tracks.

-With Every Light: Masters lost, however there's a great transfer of the mix Howard Willing did at Pumpkinland available and it sounds beautiful.

-Age Of Innocence: This was initially added to Machina 1 at the last minute, when Billy decided he wanted to finish the song. The masters are available, and unique as Billy and Howard recorded the whole thing in The Village Recorder studio, Los Angeles, with rental gear. To Billy's memory, all they had to start with was the drums, which were sped up from the original, slower version. However the problem is they don't have the original track sheets for this, so there's a bit more detective work to figure out what guitars are in or out, or whether they were used at all in the final mix. "It may sound simple, but you never think the thing you didn't mark or highlight on a piece of paper (if you even have that piece of paper!) will come back to haunt you." That said, the tracks sound quite good and more open than you'd remember from the MI mix, when they get it together it should be a considerable improvement. Day 2 of work on it, it's curious: drums are sped up, so they sit higher tonally than they normally would. Vocals were recorded distorted ("I guess that's what I wanted circa 1999?"). There are many guitars which when added together form a beautiful but often impenetrable wall...

-Let Me Give The World To You (Machina II): Now mixing...

[Disassociative]

I’m still genuinely curious if D’arcy had any involvement in these sessions at all. She left the band at the end of that Arising tour in April 1999 so that limits her to very early stages of the recording (if she was present at all) and it’s more than likely any parts she may have recorded were redone after she left.

[burnmotherfucker!]

I had to make a long drive so I had time to listen to the new record front to back uninterrupted. My own take on it is that I liked it better than the last few releases. But it feels like lost potential. I'd probably prefer more guitar walls on an SP album but I'm also a big fan of synths so maybe it doesn't bother me as much as some. I think the music itself sounded great. Simple, but synth is more about tone than riffs. Sadly I think I have to agree with what others have said in that the mix ruins it. The vocals are pushed all the way right up front for the whole album drowning anything else out. But then again I guess that's been the story for a while now and I guess it won't ever change. I just don't get it.

[Disassociative]

I still kinda like it overall but it’s just not really what I wanted or expected. I was thinking more stuff in the vein of Shiny Vol. 1 but with more involvement from the rest of the band.

[Shadaloo]

I’m still genuinely curious if D’arcy had any involvement in these sessions at all. She left the band at the end of that Arising tour in April 1999 so that limits her to very early stages of the recording (if she was present at all) and it’s more than likely any parts she may have recorded were redone after she left.

The Machina sessions at Pumpkinland lasted from November 1998 through to October 1999. Her last show was April 24th, The Roxy. So yeah, early sessions only. You can see initials for who does what on the track sheets, but hers don't appear on the above video for This Time. She does have a performer credit on M1, but there's been speculation basically since the album came out that all of her parts were scrapped.

[Disassociative]

The Machina sessions at Pumpkinland lasted from November 1998 through to October 1999. Her last show was April 24th, The Roxy. So yeah, early sessions only. You can see initials for who does what on the track sheets, but hers don't appear on the above video for This Time. She does have a performer credit on M1, but there's been speculation basically since the album came out that all of her parts were scrapped.

The soundboard recording we have from one of her last shows (Tramps) has the bass pretty audible in the mix so to me she at least knew how to play the Machina songs that were performed on that tour but who knows if that was because she had to learn them for the tour or she knew them from the early studio sessions. I will say though, she does sound a bit frantic and erratic at points when talking off-mic to Billy but her playing itself still sounded competent.

(I was going to link to the concert on YouTube but it doesn’t appear to be present anymore - I can upload my copy at some point after work today if anyone’s interested- guitars are a little low on the mix but it’s a great sounding recording of one of the final shows of the original lineup and has some interesting early versions of Machina songs)

edit: found it on archive.org https://archive.org/details/ArisingTramps1999Soundboard/

[Endlessly]

-Age Of Innocence: This was initially added to Machina 1 at the last minute, when Billy decided he wanted to finish the song.

Astonishing. I can't imagine the album without that track, what would I have even listened to on repeat in college??

[Zimbo]

I miss the guitars. But I respect what he's doing, even though I don't really understand the words.

"Tyger, Tyger" could be a number one hit by a Miley Cyrus.

[ManBurning]

You know, I hate to admit this... but I've listened to this record nonstop for the last week and... it really ain't that bad! It really grows on you.

[Disassociative]

I think it’ll be something I come back to every now and then.

[Volk]

You know, I hate to admit this... but I've listened to this record nonstop for the last week and... it really ain't that bad! It really grows on you.

I'm leaning this way more too. I haven't listened to it nonstop, but I've listened several more times. It's definitely not what the Pumpkins' potential is. I like the electronic side of them, but I also want to hear songs with loud guitars & drums. There's a few highlights here, but overall it's average. Nothing to hate, nothing to love. Good background music.

[Shadaloo]

You know, I hate to admit this... but I've listened to this record nonstop for the last week and... it really ain't that bad! It really grows on you.

Never be ashamed to admit you like SP. It's as fine to like it as it is to not! I don't think there's been a SP album since MCIS that wasn't a grower for me, save maybe Machina II which I loved right away.

I've been coming back to Cyr every so often. I can pick out stuff like James on EBow now and though the guitar parts are kinda tucked away, they're more obvious with multiple listens. So Cyr's not quite the album I wish it was, but...I feel the old SP magic under layers of processing at times. It'll do for now I guess.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

I just read those articles about Billy bot making all those transphobic remarks and calling the person he/she multiple times and a "fucking pig"....Holy shit...Thats even more hardcore than the time Trent made that post about "plump females"......Morrissey gets raked over the coals for the things he says but people seem to turn a blind eye to Billy's comments. I guess all those Gen Xers in their Mellon Collie shirts don't wanna admit their hero who got them through high school in the 90s is an alt right homophobic/transphobic looney tune who believes in lizard people and shape-shifters

[neorev]

I just read those articles about Billy bot making all those transphobic remarks and calling the person he/she multiple times and a "fucking pig"....Holy shit...Thats even more hardcore than the time Trent made that post about "plump females"......Morrissey gets raked over the coals for the things he says but people seem to turn a blind eye to Billy's comments. I guess all those Gen Xers in their Mellon Collie shirts don't wanna admit their hero who got them through high school in the 90s is an alt right homophobic/transphobic looney tune who believes in lizard people and shape-shifters

Now you know why Billy shit talks Netphoria so much. Devi originally posted it on the Netphoria boards. Other SP communities swept it under the rug to protect Billy, but Netphoria did not. He still holds a grudge.