Religion

[Jinsai]

this shit is going viral, and it's incredibly stupid.



Somehow he avoids the fact that Christianity is a religion... when he goes about endorsing Christianity and explaining the difference between Jesus and religion in such vague and meaningless ways that it drives me insane. In other words, the "meaning" behind this meandering BS (when you strip away his bad poetic affectations and get to the point) is that his religion is true, so therefore it's not a religion.

The fact that so many people find this horse shit "inspiring" sucks. Jesus wasn't a republican? No shit. Thanks for the info.

[Elke]

Hadn't seen that one yet. Did some digging, and found this. Ironically, the author seems to agree with you Jinsai.

However, I kinda see what he's trying to do. It's pretty easy to focus on one part of the message (don't pray on street corners, eat with sinners, shame the Pharisees and act like a Samaritan in order to go to heaven), and see the delightful construct that is everything after the gospels as man-made and exactly the thing Jesus seems to rally against.

I also think this demonstrates a transformation of christianity, as western civilization moves further into secularized public territory and removes religion out of the public forum and into individual preference and autonomous reflection. All religions change and adapt to new circumstances, and young christians in secularized societies are looking for ways to be christians in a modern world. Letting go of hierarchal, intrinsically public structures seems to be a logical way to adapt to secularization without losing the essence of the faith.

[Halo Infinity]

Hadn't seen that one yet. Did some digging, and found this. Ironically, the author seems to agree with you Jinsai.

I've found that to be rather ironic myself. I would've have ever guessed that either.

However, I kinda see what he's trying to do. It's pretty easy to focus on one part of the message (don't pray on street corners, eat with sinners, shame the Pharisees and act like a Samaritan in order to go to heaven), and see the delightful construct that is everything after the gospels as man-made and exactly the thing Jesus seems to rally against.

I also think this demonstrates a transformation of christianity, as western civilization moves further into secularized public territory and removes religion out of the public forum and into individual preference and autonomous reflection. All religions change and adapt to new circumstances, and young christians in secularized societies are looking for ways to be christians in a modern world. Letting go of hierarchal, intrinsically public structures seems to be a logical way to adapt to secularization without losing the essence of the faith.

I can see what you mean here, but I just have a hard time not seeing Christianity and going to church as things that aren't and/or have absolutely nothing to do with religion. They're all one and the same to me. However, I'm aware of the argument some Christians use when they say the following line: "Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship with God." Even when I didn't have any doubts in the existence of God, I've always known Christianity as a religion that involves a relationship with God. It's also hard for me to believe that one would hate religion while liking, supporting and promoting Christianity and going to church, and anything to do with church. It just doesn't seem right to me at all.

Somehow he avoids the fact that Christianity is a religion... when he goes about endorsing Christianity and explaining the difference between Jesus and religion in such vague and meaningless ways that it drives me insane. In other words, the "meaning" behind this meandering BS (when you strip away his bad poetic affectations and get to the point) is that his religion is true, so therefore it's not a religion.

The fact that so many people find this horse shit "inspiring" sucks. Jesus wasn't a republican? No shit. Thanks for the info.

I don't know what you think of TheAmazingAtheist on YouTube, but while he has his moments, I thought that his response to bball1989's poem was very spot on. You probably might like it.

[Elke]

You go to church to be with your community, to pray with fellow-believers and - if you're catholic - to commune with Christ, to recieve Christ. More and more young christians I know don't do this anymore, because they feel the people in the church aren't their community and aren't their fellow-believers. They find other ways to commune with Christ, by reading the Bible, by studying christianity and other religions, by helping their relatives, by travelling with like-minded young people, by doing volunteer work...

The way the hierarchy of the catholic Church, for instance, presents itself is as a moral compass; rather than a guardian of tradition or - what she actually is - an administrative structure. But the strongest appeal in the gospels is one of personal, reflective morality and one that condemns human judgement. So studying christianity leads a lot of people to leave their church if it's in the business of contradicting Jesus' teachings. It does make perfect sense, only there is little to no vocabulary available to talk or think about religion-without-structure.
In effect, it's very similar to the lutheran and early protestant criticism of the catholic Church.

[WorzelG]

I'm pretty much agnostic, coming from the UK. Though nobody really cares and i've had a fair few religious friends to have discussions / arguments with over the years, all in good humour mostly (I would probably have a very different view if I wasn't European and lived in the US for example). Only about 3% of our population go to Church regularly. (although this amount might be bumped up by people getting their kids into faith schools as it is the only way to get your kids a decent education unless you go private, this is one situation that really pisses me off about religion, they're happy to take kids of hypocrites and liars pretending to go to church/ believe, personally I'd outlaw them)

Another beef I have with religion is how dumbed down it has become in the UK - my dad used to say there were some great things brought about by religion like great art, architecture and music but you should have heard some of the godawful songs we had to sing at school

We had 'Water of life' to the theme of Rupert the Bear - some song to the tune of Match of the Day, like they were saying only stupid people with no taste in music need apply.
I also went to a Christening a while back where they had some band with an acoustic guitar singing a song with the chorus 'my God is a great big God' with hand movements - it was awful

I don't understand why anyone would want to exist forever either in heaven or wherever, I'm happy to think of death as being just that and your molecules become one with the Earth. I'm sure you'd grow tired of your loved ones over the billennia not to mention yourself. I think immortality would be a curse and this is without throwing hell into the mix, burning forever is just a bit harsh isn't it?

Anyway sorry to ramble but I find it quite difficult to put a viewpoint down in a coherent manner

[Bluegirl]

I don't understand why anyone would want to exist forever either in heaven or wherever, I'm happy to think of death as being just that and your molecules become one with the Earth. I'm sure you'd grow tired of your loved ones over the billennia not to mention yourself. I think immortality would be a curse and this is without throwing hell into the mix, burning forever is just a bit harsh isn't it?

Anyway sorry to ramble but I find it quite difficult to put a viewpoint down in a coherent manner

This is exactly how I always felt. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and they always taught that some people go to heaven and some stay in a paradise on earth. Every time I would try to imagine what it would be like to live forever it would seem more like a twilight zone episode where you think you got what you wanted but it turns out to be hell. What do you do forever? After the first lifetime, after you learn everything there is to know? You will just be there siting around forever.

[DigitalChaos]

Being trapped in eternity with the people who think they are going to "heaven" is my own version of hell.

[littlemonkey613]

This is exactly how I always felt. I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and they always taught that some people go to heaven and some stay in a paradise on earth. Every time I would try to imagine what it would be like to live forever it would seem more like a twilight zone episode where you think you got what you wanted but it turns out to be hell. What do you do forever? After the first lifetime, after you learn everything there is to know? You will just be there siting around forever.

hahaha I could never share this view. I would love to live forever, play music forever, read and learn forever. But the Christian idea of Heaven has always been unappealing to me. I'd rather be on Earth.

[Delusional]

hahaha I could never share this view. I would love to live forever, play music forever, read and learn forever.

Forever is a long fucking time, what do you do after you have learned everything, read everything, played everything, and not just once but an infinite number of times...
I suppose if you could keep only a limited amount of information at any one time you could be guaranteed to always have something "new" to experience, that would be cool.

[Elke]

I guess the appeal of living forever is just the fact that you don't have to die.
Don't forget that in hinduism and buddhism 'living forever' eventually means reconnecting to Brahman/Atman; and that in christianity and islam a great number of people believe that after death you lie in wait in a sort of sleep until the Day of Judgement, where the Earth is made new. It's only then that you are resurrected. Theologically speaking heaven, quite literally, is mostly a place on Earth for the Abrahimic religions.

Also, in almost every religion save a handful (like the Germanic/Norse mythologies and the Egyptian ideas about the afterlife) you lose your body completely, and so you also lose the human passions and emotions that distract (eastern concept) or tempt (western concept) us. Eternity for our freed or resurrected souls would be an entirely different experience than for our embodied souls.

And there is the fact that our human brain can't really understand the concept of eternity, only use it. So whatever we would imagine eternity to be, it's only a vague estimate at characteristics of it, not an understanding of the thing itself. Whether we value those characteristics as positive or negative doesn't depend on eternity itself, but on our associations with those characteristics. Just like all our individual concepts of dragons and gods are approximations, so are our concepts of eternity or nothingness.

Yeah, I know, tl;dr.

[littlemonkey613]

Forever is a long fucking time, what do you do after you have learned everything, read everything, played everything, and not just once but an infinite number of times...
I suppose if you could keep only a limited amount of information at any one time you could be guaranteed to always have something "new" to experience, that would be cool.

I guess I'm thinking of it from the standpoint of, whenever your on your deathbed, you could always keep on living. I feel like people always say "well I wouldn't want to live thaattt long. But I really don't think dying becomes any easier now matter what age you are at least from my standpoint. Idk. I also am someone who never gets bored so its just how i view things. Drunk bitch over here. Ignore all.

Edit: Is it bad I just think of playing with my dog forever? I don't think she would ever get bored. I love her
Omg I wish I could delete all of this

Unrelated shit I'm obsessed with :http://www.challies.com/christian-li...ct-marriage-ii
AAAAAAAA! probably belongs in the feminism something thread but the religious aspect (core and foundation really) is the most interesting (and diabolical) part.

[theruiner]

Unrelated shit I'm obsessed with :http://www.challies.com/christian-li...ct-marriage-ii
AAAAAAAA! probably belongs in the feminism something thread but the religious aspect (core and foundation really) is the most interesting (and diabolical) part.

God calls you to submit to your husband with joy and freedom.

Um...I don't think that word means what you think it means, dude.

And anyone who teaches their children that that kind of garbage is ok is fucking sick in the head. Period. End of story.

[YKWYA]

Don't forget that in hinduism and buddhism 'living forever' eventually means reconnecting to Brahman/Atman

Im not sure that is correct from a Buddhist point of view, that there is a body soul or a universal counterpart. Or at least, Im not so sure that the concept or life after death/rebirth can be said to be the same for both beliefs.

Also, in almost every religion save a handful (like the Germanic/Norse mythologies and the Egyptian ideas about the afterlife) you lose your body completely, and so you also lose the human passions and emotions that distract (eastern concept) or tempt (western concept) us. Eternity for our freed or resurrected souls would be an entirely different experience than for our embodied souls.

And there is the fact that our human brain can't really understand the concept of eternity, only use it. So whatever we would imagine eternity to be, it's only a vague estimate at characteristics of it, not an understanding of the thing itself. Whether we value those characteristics as positive or negative doesn't depend on eternity itself, but on our associations with those characteristics. Just like all our individual concepts of dragons and gods are approximations, so are our concepts of eternity or nothingness.

The part that interests me though is the correlation between some concepts in quantum physics (i.e the singularity, heat death etc) that the Universe will end up at one distinct point and the concepts of 'eternity' and there being something 'bigger' in religious beliefs. Probably the closest we ever come to experiencing anything that may be like death is the loss of the concept of time when we sleep, and that place you go to where it seems we lose all awareness of our physical existence.

[Elke]

I think in ultimo the idea of leaving samsara is not so dissimilar in buddhism and hinduism - it's where you leave to that's different, but what you leave behind (any sense of self or individuality) I think is the same. Of course, there are so many different interpretations that you can't say anything in general about a religious onthology that's correct for everyone.

Do we really lose the concept of time when we sleep? I always seem to wake up five minutes before my alarm is due to go off, whether it's my regular hour or not. I wonder where time goes, then.

[theruiner]

I can't believe there are people in this world who try to argue the existence of god by saying, "Prove to me he DOESN'T exist." Honestly, my brain wants to pop my eyes out of their sockets, jump out of my head and commit suicide every time I hear that from the sheer, unimaginable absurdity of that argument. Believe what you want, and I'm open for a discussion, but don't use the single dumbest argument ever that can be dismantled completely in about two sentences.

[Elke]

You know, my students ALWAYS do the reverse. They've been raised in a secularist society, so for them organized religion is often unfamiliar and at worst dangerous or silly. So when they comment on it by saying that only really stupid or naive people believe in God (somehow always managing to hump me into the second category because they know saying the first to your teacher would be kind of weird), it's usually followed by: Can you prove he exists?
Which inevitable ends in me trying to explain that the essence of faith is that you cannot prove it, and they usually go: Oh, isn't that convenient.

On the other hand, over three quarters of them believe that there's life after death, that their dead grandparents are with them in moments of crisis, that ghosts exist (and can be summonned using candles, glasses and little pieces of paper) and that their boyfriend/girlfriend loves them eternally and sincerely. But those things are real, and God isn't. *le sigh*

[carpenoctem]

And there is the fact that our human brain can't really understand the concept of eternity, only use it. So whatever we would imagine eternity to be, it's only a vague estimate at characteristics of it, not an understanding of the thing itself. Whether we value those characteristics as positive or negative doesn't depend on eternity itself, but on our associations with those characteristics. Just like all our individual concepts of dragons and gods are approximations, so are our concepts of eternity or nothingness.

Good point. But though eternity is mind-boggling and something I cant really wrap my brain around, I think subconsciously I already live as if I am immortal; like right now I'm typing this I never think that in five minutes I could be dead, I just assume that I will wake up every day and go about business as usual because I have never experienced anything that tells me any different. I can count on one hand the amount of deaths that have actually affected me; none of the people were super close to me and one was a celebrity that I'll never know at all. I've never been in any accidents or been close to death. (This is really common in young white middle-class Americans probably.) So as much as I can think about the concept of me dying, and imagine people going to my funeral, and imagine all my friends and family going about their daily lives with me not in it and maybe thinking about me and missing me, I also can't fathom the idea of not being exactly as I am right now because it's all I've ever known. So I kind of live every day as if I'm going to just wake up tomorrow and get on ETS and check for updates. This is naive to the extreme, it's just the truth. I often think death has not really hit me yet, even though I'm obsessed with it and it's the principal quality that draws me to certain types of books and movies and music. Like, we just lost someone at work, he had a stroke a couple months ago and HR wouldn't let him come back because it was a terminal case, and we all knew he was going to die soon, and then it just happened and I'm not affected at all by it. I didn't know him that well so that probably helps. But I'm just very detached from it.

I wouldn't mind death being an endless sleep. I don't think it will be, but I quite often think, "I could go for a coma right now."

[Elke]

I think I'm the opposite of you: I've been suicidal on-and-off since I was 14, so death - to me - is something that I live with. Times like now I even live with it 24/7. I guess that's also why it doesn't scare me. I think I want to live, because I want to accomplish things - and sometimes I'm completely panicked because I'm over 30 and I haven't accomplished a lot of what I've set out to do, yet. But then again, it's also the 'out' that's always at hand. To me death is a bit like the idea of quitting your job cause your boss is an ass. You want to keep doing your job, you want to fix it so you can stay, but if he really ruins the fun for you, you can always leave. Beyond that, it's nothing.
Thinking about it, I guess that also explains why I don't believe in life after death: I've always defined death as the exit door, the opposite of being in this life. I've always defined it as a negative, an absence of something.

That's not to say that I'm not scared of other people dying. People who did die are always still very present in my life, in pictures and stories I tell about them, and things I do or expressions I use or ways I cook a meal that remind me of them. Being religious, I guess, makes me vulnerable to ritualizing everything. Or maybe being religious is so easy to me because I'm so prone to ritualizing things.

[Amaro]

You know, my students ALWAYS do the reverse. They've been raised in a secularist society, so for them organized religion is often unfamiliar and at worst dangerous or silly. So when they comment on it by saying that only really stupid or naive people believe in God (somehow always managing to hump me into the second category because they know saying the first to your teacher would be kind of weird), it's usually followed by: Can you prove he exists?
Which inevitable ends in me trying to explain that the essence of faith is that you cannot prove it, and they usually go: Oh, isn't that convenient.

On the other hand, over three quarters of them believe that there's life after death, that their dead grandparents are with them in moments of crisis, that ghosts exist (and can be summonned using candles, glasses and little pieces of paper) and that their boyfriend/girlfriend loves them eternally and sincerely. But those things are real, and God isn't. *le sigh*

No. Also not real. There's nothing.

After this life.

[Elke]

I think the point of that was to say that all of those things cannot be proven to exist or not exist (at least for now). They're all a matter of faith. *cue pointless discussions about faith*

[Amaro]

I think the point of that was to say that all of those things cannot be proven to exist or not exist (at least for now). They're all a matter of faith. *cue pointless discussions about faith*

I follow.

From that point I just felt like chiming in with what I believe to be true.

[Elke]

Oh okay, that wasn't clear to me. Thanks for clearing it up

[carpenoctem]

I think I'm the opposite of you: I've been suicidal on-and-off since I was 14, so death - to me - is something that I live with.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm in the same camp, since around the same age, maybe fifteen or sixteen I think. It's always on my mind - different ways of doing it, the most effective way, the best place to go, would I leave a note or etc. But sometimes I stop and think, "Okay. So if you really are going to do it, why haven't you done it?" And I think the answer is always just the fear of the unknown, and the fear of repercussions. (It's never because of who I will hurt by doing this - being suicidal, at least for someone like me, presupposes being intensely selfish.) Death can be something you experience (and for morticians, EMTs and ER nurses, for instance, maybe even every day) but it's never your own; you only have that once, so there's no way to approach it as an expert, and the only way to do it with confidence is to have faith, whether that faith is in an afterlife, reincarnation, or nothing at all. Anyway death is just this enormous truth that can be hard to understand, and I know from hearing other people that no matter how long you've seen it coming, like for those who are terminally ill, it's always a shock. So for something so widely acknowledged by the human race, for it to still be a shock time after time, I think just shows how difficult death is.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;

THE EPISTLE OF PAUL TO THE ROMANS (Romans 13)

These verses stand out the most as proof of The Bible's falsehood. Let's take a closer look.

All authority (governments and figures) are in those positions because God has put them there.

Now, people must follow the authorities or receive condemnation from God. Let's take a look at Hitler and the Jews that obeyed his authority. Right. They, the innocent multitudes, received for their obedience the sentence of death by horrific means.

This consquence is absolutely reprehensible. But what's more is that what Paul seems to be doing here is writing this to please the Romans and other authorities.

The above-quoted verses alone are enough to demonstrate the falsehood of The Bible to any thinking person.

[Timinator]

THE EPISTLE OF PAUL TO THE ROMANS (Romans 13)
The above-quoted verses alone are enough to demonstrate the falsehood of The Bible to any thinking person.

Even amongst the religious people who post here, I don't believe you'll find any Biblical literalists.

[Elke]

Indeed.

Also, if you do what is good and you still have to fear authorities, then something's rotten in the state of Denmark, so to speak.

[cashpiles (closed)]

So, if the Bible is not to be taken literally... are you really sure that is the way to interpret the Bible if you are a Christian?

"Thou shalt not kill"... the Christians on here should not take that literally right?

[Volk]

If the bible isn't meant to be taken literally, what standard do Christians use to decide which parts are taken literal, and which parts get reinterpreted?

[Bluegirl]

So, if the Bible is not to be taken literally... are you really sure that is the way to interpret the Bible if you are a Christian?

"Thou shalt not kill"... the Christians on here should not take that literally right?

Even among Biblical literalists your not going to find to many people who agree on what the Bible is saying which is why there are many different sects of Christianity.

Flaccid Member[/COLOR]]If the bible isn't meant to be taken literally, what standard do Christians use to decide which parts are taken literal, and which parts get reinterpreted?

Convenience, the interpretation which let them do what they want while impending others, the interpretation that gives them the most power.

[Elke]

The same standards that anyone uses to interpret any text ever: the one that you think help you deduce what the author tried to say.
As for which parts of the text you should follow: the parts that you think are meant to be followed in a changed environment, in a different culture and a different time. The things that you think are timeless, and in correspondence to what you think is at the heart of the text, at the centre of the religion. This means different things to different people.

And no, that doesn't mean that what Bluegirl wrote isn't correct; but that's not a christian interpretation, that's a political (in the broadest sense of the word) use / abuse of the text. I can take Buddhist writings to mean we should burn all heathens, too. I can take Marx to justify killing the religious as well as the wealthy. I can take Richard Dawkins to justify killing the religious and raping women. I can take whatever I want and manipulate it into meaning whatever I want it it mean. But that is not what most religious people do.