Controversial Music Opinions...

[allegro]

Stewart Copeland, that's all I gotta say... he had boo-bams and crotales and a gong and fuck knows what else with him onstage in The Police in the 80s and at the reunion shows it was TWICE this much:

http://thepolicewiki.org/Police_wiki...ng_diagram.jpg

Yeahhhhhhh I know, and I hated that, too. The Caribbean percussion I don’t count as extra, like timbales (Octobans are patented fancy timbales) or special cymbals, because it was necessary to the Cops’ sound (and I used to specialize in timbales LOL). And I don’t necessarily mind some extra percussion instruments, but ALL THOSE FUCKING DRUMS???? Bleh. And nobody needs 80 cymbals, either.

But Copeland did some pretty difficult percussion, with all that heavy cymbal work and syncopation, so I love him.

But I also love Vinnie Colaiuta, and look at HIS:

https://www.drummerworld.com/drummer...urstingkit.jpg

(Okay, that’s still a lotta fucking cymbals.)

Even Vinnie does drum solos, but I give him slack because he does Buddy drum solos .

Bonham's Moby Dick solo live? Bathroom break, or go get another beer.

The only drum solos worth a shit to me were by Buddy Rich, because he was motherfucking Buddy Rich!

Or Gene Krupa:

[onthewall2983]

https://twitter.com/the_ironsheik/st...19097471913985

[allegro]

https://twitter.com/the_ironsheik/st...19097471913985

[onthewall2983]

I think this settles the argument about coke spoons

[eversonpoe]

Stewart Copeland, that's all I gotta say... he had boo-bams and crotales and a gong and fuck knows what else with him onstage in The Police in the 80s and at the reunion shows it was TWICE this much:

http://thepolicewiki.org/Police_wiki...ng_diagram.jpg

Yeahhhhhhh I know, and I hated that, too. The Caribbean percussion I don’t count as extra, like timbales (Octobans are patented fancy timbales) or special cymbals, because it was necessary to the Cops’ sound (and I used to specialize in timbales LOL). And I don’t necessarily mind some extra percussion instruments, but ALL THOSE FUCKING DRUMS???? Bleh. And nobody needs 80 cymbals, either.

But Copeland did some pretty difficult percussion, with all that heavy cymbal work and syncopation, so I love him.

But I also love Vinnie Colaiuta, and look at HIS:

https://www.drummerworld.com/drummer...urstingkit.jpg

(Okay, that’s still a lotta fucking cymbals.)

Even Vinnie does drum solos, but I give him slack because he does Buddy drum solos .

Bonham's Moby Dick solo live? Bathroom break, or go get another beer.

The only drum solos worth a shit to me were by Buddy Rich, because he was motherfucking Buddy Rich!

Or Gene Krupa:

what about bruford's 80s kit in king crimson?

[allegro]

what about bruford's 80s kit in king crimson?

Oh WHAT THE FUCK!?!?

[WorzelG]

My partner doesn't get NIN at all, and I've never felt the need to explain or show them further. Not everything has to be shared.

Ditto - although I don’t want him to as he looks after the kids when I go to see them! We got up to the episode before Somewhat Damaged is featured in The Walking Dead and kind of stalled, partly because I don’t want to watch it with him and explain why Somewhat Damaged is one of my favourite songs of all time, it’s really difficult to explain. Maybe I should just not tell him it’s them lol, he doesn’t really know NIN even, I’ve never shared it with him, maybe he knows Closer?

[frankie teardrop]

I actually agree there. My two favorite REM songs are New Test Leper and E-Bow the Letter

That and What's the Frequency Kennth, but the rest of the Monster album didn't do much for me.

LEAVE is my personal favorite REM song, and new adventures is my favorite of the 90s albums, by far.

[poinoup]

That build-up on Leave... I think Hi-Fi gets a listen today.

[Jinsai]

Maybe I should clarify my thing with Rush here, not as if anyone really cares, but I feel I didn't really put it right.

Part of what it is with their music and general "package" is this cognitive dissonance. They're this band that is taken incredibly seriously, and they generally act like they're into being taken seriously, and that these are some deep concepts they're exploring lyrically, and don't even fuck with this whole thing musically, it's just beyond great there, everyone's a great musician...

But musicianship, for me, really ranks kinda low on the scale of importance unless we're talking about jazz, and then, well yeah; if you're making jazz and you don't know how to play your instrument GTFO... but rock, you can get by barely knowing anything about theory, and maybe that's a bonus. Rush comes into this sort of thing w/ intense musicianship and cryptic imagery and then, really, feels to me like it takes a hard turn into Spinal Tap territory.

They're great, at once serious and practically worshipped, and then they do silly goofy shit and act ridiculous. I have a hard time reconciling all that. I actually don't have a problem with the weird way Geddy Lee sings, and generally I don't care if I don't like "dumb lyrics" anymore... Rush is an exception. The dumb lyrics bother me because of this facade of seriousness, and it's something I have to actively try to overlook. Even the celebrated stuff that I actually really like, I'm shutting out things that will really feel like a moment that was intentionally meant to be ludicrous.

Like this... Come on, this IS a great song, but... there's a LOT of pretentiousness in this video, and if you don't think it's a little hilarious when Alex Iverson leans in and contributes the word "subdivisions" in this ominous, silly deep voice (that really almost feels like someone is making fun of Geddy's strangely chipper, bouncy high-pitched muppet singing), then what actually puts a smile on your face? I mean, it is just silly! And the chorus with the words "be cool or be CAST OUT!"
It is really... something.



But there's so much to praise, and maybe the things that really make me giggle aren't something that we all laugh about. When I saw Rush live, there were a lot of people having a blast, the way people do at rock shows, getting high/drunk and dancing around like dorks. But then there were some people that really, really sucked. I'll put this sort of person on par with "the guy at the NIN show" who dramatically cries while mouthing along the lyrics to Hurt. The guy sitting next to me was literally meditating during the show, and at one point, seemed to break his concentration only to tell me loudly to "SHHHHHHHHHH!" at a point in-between songs. I was talking to my friend, saying I think something about what we were planning on doing after the show.... THERE WAS NO MUSIC PLAYING... and it totally fucked this guy's chakra Rush-cum moment.

So, I guess, in a nutshell, to me it's always felt like Rush is this goofy dad-rock band that's hilarious on a Ween level, but their fans don't see that, and I can never really tell if they're being ridiculous intentionally or not... but their fans are really dialed-in to something that I SWEAR is not there. And maybe the Ween comparison isn't really apt, but it works to demonstrate a difference for me there. Ween fans know that the music is hilarious, the songs are frequently jokes, and yeah, they're also some of the greatest living rock musicians on the planet... but they're in on the joke, and so are the fans. With Rush, I don't know if there is a joke.. but YYZ kicks all kinds of ass.

[fillow]

I'm ready to read @Jinsai's take on Tool and MJK, or to be directed at one if it's out there

[Jinsai]

I'm ready to read @Jinsai's take on Tool and MJK, or to be directed at one if it's out there

I first saw Tool live a couple times on the tour for Aenima, and I thought it was incredible. Both shows pulled off this hilarious, facetious humor that was in your face and abrasive, and it all worked and gelled. I guess I've not liked the Tool shows as much that I've seen since, where it really feels like they're gettting into some pretentiousness rather than laughing at it... and then there's this meta-layer to that, where it feels like the band is openly telling everyone to fuck off and die, and then it feels like it's "just you" who gets the joke. They're kind of brilliant at that in a way... this roll out where they get the crowd to chant together to "think for yourself and question authority," and then there's a lining to that where yeah, haha, and fuck you, take my money, and fuck you buddy, haha.

I was on the Tool mailing list back in the day, back when that was a thing, and I remember getting an ad to buy some Tool merch "if you're the sort of dumbass who does that sort of thing." That's not a direct quote, but it was the gist I walked away with from the way it was all put together... and I bought a t-shirt.

I've met Danny Carey, and as soon as he realizes you're not some obsessed fan, he's incredibly chill and down to earth. I've seen Adam Jones around, and he's got an aura that pretty much screams "just stay away from me." And that's cool. I get that. Beyond that, I can't really speculate as to where the humor stops and starts w/ the band. I would like to suggest that the humor is probably Maynard's job at this point, and the way it works is odd, and probably appreciated as a wall between the fans. It helps to cement some mystery there, and it helps that the jokes are generally good.

That's something that differentiates the humor between Rush and Tool for me at least... the jokes are funny with Tool. The best joke is that probably half the fanbase doesn't get the joke at all. Then there's that creeping suspicion that you're also not in on the joke... and with Tool, I don't know... it's actually clever there. I feel all of that headfucking is intentional and at least a bit brilliant.

There's also the aspect where Tool is definitely not screwing around and is being really serious, and that's probably also where the facetious humor helps sell that aspect. The idea that there's a "deeper meaning here" and then it's, well, a song about shoving your fist up someone's ass while they learn to appreciate it, is a uniquely Tool thing. The first show I saw them play, David Cross ran out on stage just before they started playing their first song, grabbed the microphone and announced "this Tool show has been brought to you by Honey Nut Cheerios." And everyone in the band stopped... laughed hysterically for a moment... and then started the show. They were dressed like televangelist preachers... Maynard had this pocket bible he was flinging around, and the whole mood was light hearted and weird in some nightmare David Lynch absurdity moment.
Then, about half way through the show, Maynard says in this preacher voice "I would take off these clothes, but I am a slaaaaaaaave to fashion"

The lights shut off, Maynard starts ripping off this outfit, and he has these alien spines growing out of his back, and from that point on, the show was still humorous but in a way that would probably creep you out if you're not into Cronenberg movies or that sort of thing.

And that show was one of the greatest things I've ever seen as far as concerts go. Strangely, I think it also explains where they went from there, and turned the whole presentation into something completely different and more "blatantly" sincere. I regret not buying the limited t-shirt that said "Tool fucked the shit out of me at the Hollywood Palladium."

What I think about the way Maynard actually sings, like his cadence and singing style... that's probably an entirely different rant. I guess the tl;dr version is I eventually decided I don't like A Perfect Circle, and Puscifer is ok, but I really don't have any strong opinions about either project. With Tool though, there's the percussion aspect to it all that really can't be ignored, and to me it's more important musically than any other aspect to what makes the whole great... and I guess, on that note, I'd say the time I saw Aloke Dutta play was, at least for me, a really much more incredible thing than anything I've gotten from any band member's "side-projects," and I wouldn't even bring that up if at least half the audience wasn't wearing Tool T-shirts, and there wasn't this guy going "FUCK YEAHHHHH!" AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH! Woooooooooooooooooo! FUCK YEAH!" between every song.... and just in case it's not understood what I'm talking about here, it's a quiet man playing a tabla.

And maybe that's where the joke trips up for me... and it's totally weird and brilliant, sure, but Tool have curated that fanatical following while simultaneously ridiculing it, and maybe it makes it a little hard to know how to feel when you're listening to it. Generally, you don't wanna get emotionally invested into a song that's about fistfucking... but if you have a good sense of humor, you'll get over it. Just... most of their fans make the whole thing very hard to laugh at... and that's TOTALLY something Maynard set up and loves... pretty sure about that...

And then there's the part w/ Tool, or Zappa, or Ween, or whatever... where we're wondering if considering these humorous components to the music are really just there to give people stuff to talk about, because maybe talking about what's "musical good" is pointless and a sort of philosophical paradox. And here, I've gone on and on about whether or not their attitude and presentation is awesome, and I haven't really even mentioned that their music totally sucks or not... it's almost like that part is secondary, completely up to someone's personal taste, and they don't give a shit what anyone thinks?

And wow, that was a much longer rant than I expected to go off on.

[onthewall2983]

Like this... Come on, this IS a great song, but... there's a LOT of pretentiousness in this video, and if you don't think it's a little hilarious when Alex Iverson leans in and contributes the word "subdivisions" in this ominous, silly deep voice (that really almost feels like someone is making fun of Geddy's strangely chipper, bouncy high-pitched muppet singing), then what actually puts a smile on your face? I mean, it is just silly! And the chorus with the words "be cool or be CAST OUT!"
It is really... something.



But there's so much to praise, and maybe the things that really make me giggle aren't something that we all laugh about. When I saw Rush live, there were a lot of people having a blast, the way people do at rock shows, getting high/drunk and dancing around like dorks. But then there were some people that really, really sucked. I'll put this sort of person on par with "the guy at the NIN show" who dramatically cries while mouthing along the lyrics to Hurt. The guy sitting next to me was literally meditating during the show, and at one point, seemed to break his concentration only to tell me loudly to "SHHHHHHHHHH!" at a point in-between songs. I was talking to my friend, saying I think something about what we were planning on doing after the show.... THERE WAS NO MUSIC PLAYING... and it totally fucked this guy's chakra Rush-cum moment.

So, I guess, in a nutshell, to me it's always felt like Rush is this goofy dad-rock band that's hilarious on a Ween level, but their fans don't see that, and I can never really tell if they're being ridiculous intentionally or not... but their fans are really dialed-in to something that I SWEAR is not there. And maybe the Ween comparison isn't really apt, but it works to demonstrate a difference for me there. Ween fans know that the music is hilarious, the songs are frequently jokes, and yeah, they're also some of the greatest living rock musicians on the planet... but they're in on the joke, and so are the fans. With Rush, I don't know if there is a joke.. but YYZ kicks all kinds of ass.

The word "Subdivisions" is actually spoken by Neil Peart, and tuned down. I think Alex did it a few times live, but mostly in concert they just sampled what was on the original record.

As far as everything else you're saying here, I get it but it doesn't bother me that much. I actually think the goofy stuff is kind of charming. If it was a band like The Rolling Stones or Aerosmith doing that kind of stuff I'd probably feel the same as you do, insofar as regarding the fact that those bands are more like corporate entities than friends. Rush truly remained friends, and the comedy just comes out of their collective sense of humor towards each other, and letting their fans in on it by doing stuff like that, or letting South Park use their music, or being interviewed by Stephen Colbert suspended high above them.

Weirdly enough this reminds me that Steely Dan did an episode of the HBO show Taxicab Confessions to promote their last (and as it turned out, final) album. That feels a little cringe to me.

[poinoup]

"Nobody's Hero" by Rush gets a pass from me, but up here you get sick of them VERY fast...

As for Steely Dan, I thought they were a joke when I was young. I never grew to LIKE them, but I appreciated their musicianship as I matured. That is some of the tightest playing on albums, and it's well-thought-out music, but it's not for me. Shucks.

[henryeatscereal]

Steely Dan is trending and I saw this:

[Jazzkokehead]

This is inevitably bound to be an incredibly controversial opinion, but: I kind of think Queen is actually pretty fucking terrible.

[Jazzkokehead]

Lars Ulrich is an easy guy to hate, but he was probably right, in the long run, in his crusade against Napster.

[Archive_Reports]

He definitely was. That said, constantly talking about how you used to copy tapes for your friends growing up like it's any different (smaller scale, obviously) was kind of ridiculous.

[zecho]

Lars Ulrich is an easy guy to hate, but he was probably right, in the long run, in his crusade against Napster.

Interesting that you think that in a time where there are multiple new successful musicians who got their spotlight through the free use of music on platforms like soundcloud and tiktok. Lil Nas X has 4 multi-platinum singles and currently has a #1 song that is also going to go platinum.

Can you elaborate further?

[fillow]

Can you elaborate further?

He was hoping to have a gold-plated shark tank bar installed right next to the pool, but thanks to people downloading his music for free, he must now wait a few months before he can afford it.
Feeling guilty yet?

[Jazzkokehead]

Interesting that you think that in a time where there are multiple new successful musicians who got their spotlight through the free use of music on platforms like soundcloud and tiktok. Lil Nas X has 4 multi-platinum singles and currently has a #1 song that is also going to go platinum.

Can you elaborate further?

I'd love to. I don't think Soundcloud or TikTok are good or sustainable platforms for music. Artists simply don't get paid well for having their songs on those services. As much as I love something like Spotify - where I've discovered tons of great bands - I can't ignore the fact that musicians get paid pennies for each stream. Every so often you'll get a hugely successful guy like Lil Nas X, but he's the exception, not the rule. Most artists are struggling, working class people, and their creations have been devalued by the ability to stream their songs for free. And you can draw a direct line from Napster, Kazaa, Limewire, or whatever your program of choice was, to the streaming services of today.

And Ulrich probably got a lot of hate for being a super-wealthy, successful musician who didn't need the extra few dollars he lost from people downloading Metallica songs. But in a broader context he was right, in that smaller artists would feel the sting of those practices.

[zecho]

I'd love to. I don't think Soundcloud or TikTok are good or sustainable platforms for music. Artists simply don't get paid well for having their songs on those services. As much as I love something like Spotify - where I've discovered tons of great bands - I can't ignore the fact that musicians get paid pennies for each stream. Every so often you'll get a hugely successful guy like Lil Nas X, but he's the exception, not the rule. Most artists are struggling, working class people, and their creations have been devalued by the ability to stream their songs for free. And you can draw a direct line from Napster, Kazaa, Limewire, or whatever your program of choice was, to the streaming services of today.

And Ulrich probably got a lot of hate for being a super-wealthy, successful musician who didn't need the extra few dollars he lost from people downloading Metallica songs. But in a broader context he was right, in that smaller artists would feel the sting of those practices.

That's way more thought out than I expected. I don't disagree about streaming services not paying artists enough money, but I don't think that the Napster fiasco is directly related. But I do see what you mean, now.

On to your overall point, though. I don't know if the labels payed artists more than they did 20 years ago, but I would argue that despite the bad pay from streaming services, artists make more on tours that wouldn't be possible without the recognition those services provide than they would ever get from their labels otherwise. There was a time that if you were a small artist, you couldn't get by. Now if you find a niche audience, that's enough to finance a tour and make a profit. I don't have actual figures, but I can't imagine the unprecedented number of moderately successful artists that exist today would have been possible in the industry before either internet-aided piracy or streaming services. I think that despite the downsides to being paid less than they should, or outright theft, the landscape favors smaller artists more now than it ever has.

[Jazzkokehead]

I probably shouldn't imply that things were unilaterally better 20 or so years ago. I'm sure plenty of musicians were stuck in terrible contracts in the 80s and 90s, for example. If you're an indie artist, there's almost certainly benefits to being able to release your own music on streaming or download platforms without signing your soul away to a major label, although then the issue becomes standing out from thousands of other artists in the exact same position (unless you're particularly good at self-promotion, or lucky enough to go viral). If I discover a record I like on Spotify, sure, I'll try to buy a physical copy of it, see a live show and buy a t-shirt or whatever, but I kind of suspect the average listener doesn't put that much time or effort into thinking how their dollars get allotted to the artist. Instead, I would guess most people these days spend little to no money on music, and just head to YouTube when they want to hear a particular song. Once people realized how trivial it was to get music for free, it was always going to be tough to sell them on the idea of paying for it again. Which I guess is just a situation I find problematic when I think people deserve compensation for their work, though they may be getting compensated now in a more roundabout way, so maybe it's not the issue I make it out to be.

[allegro]

I probably shouldn't imply that things were unilaterally better 20 or so years ago.

They weren’t.

Exhibit A: Steve Albini, “The Problem With Music,” December, 1993.

Here’s Eddie Van Halen, Alex Van Halen and David Lee Roth describing how shitty their first record contract was ...

[Jazzkokehead]

Right. But that kind of sidesteps my point, which isn't that musicians have never been screwed out of fair compensation before, but that at least part of the reason it's happening now is because consumers' attitudes toward music has changed, and a lot people view it as something they don't (or shouldn't) have to pay for.

[GulDukat]

They weren’t.

Exhibit A: Steve Albini, “The Problem With Music,” December, 1993.

Here’s Eddie Van Halen, Alex Van Halen and David Lee Roth describing how shitty their first record contract was ...

Sad to see that clip. I'm really going to miss =VH= and seeing DLR and the brothers. So glad they got back together.

[elevenism]

Information is free, period. It always has been. Libraries have existed for at least 4500 years.
People who support bands will buy physical copies and merch, and go to shows.
I saw Metallica in '93 and bought a T shirt, and the Live Shit: Binge and Purge box set.
I understand where Lars was coming from, but, that's just not how media works, especially in the "information age."

[Archive_Reports]

Right. But that kind of sidesteps my point, which isn't that musicians have never been screwed out of fair compensation before, but that at least part of the reason it's happening now is because consumers' attitudes toward music has changed, and a lot people view it as something they don't (or shouldn't) have to pay for.

In part, I think the attitude comes from two things:
1 - awareness of being screwed paying $18 for a CD
2 - market oversaturation

[allegro]

People were recording their friends’ albums onto cassettes back in the 70s, this shit ain’t new. We had DUAL CASSETTE machines that could DUPLICATE your friends’ cassettes for free. We made mix tapes for free. It was all free free free. As far back as the 70s. FM stations played albums in their entirety, commercial-free, knowing full well that WE WERE RECORDING THEM. Some people were recording them on REEL-TO-REEL!!! We recorded live shows and traded them (bootlegs). Lars didn’t like if it bootlegs were traded on the magical internet vs. via cassette, as if Napster was gonna clean up the quality of that shit. When the only good quality bootleg came from a soundboard or IEM, so he needed to be looking internally. Maybe Lars can go listen to the Stooges’ “Metallic K.O.”

Lars can eat me.

As far as “stealing” goes, that industry is FULL of it:

https://www.loudersound.com/features...ues-was-stolen

These marketing morons eventually figured out that YouTube is FREE MARKETING. The internet replaced MTV. AND, if they do it right, they can monetize YouTube.

[elevenism]

@allegro , I had a high quality dual cassette deck when I was a kid. I made tapes for my friends.
And while I never recorded full albums from the radio, i DID record new songs, and I ALWAYS recorded the live shows that came on the radio.
My favorite was a Pearl Jam show, from right after Cobain's overdose in Rome. Before they played Go, (the song,) Eddie Vedder said "this is for Kurt."
I wish I still had that one.
One of my oldest friends still has a whole rack of bootleg cassettes: he was artistically inclined, so they all have handmade cover art and band logos on the bit that's visible when you stack them up. (I'm sure there's a word for that bit, but I can't think of it.)

Lars can eat ME, too.