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Faceplams: I've already conceded that.Originally Posted by Jinsai
I was nobody. Nothing.
I've already conceded that.
tempus est umbra in mente
I missed it, but there's a lot I'd say that are obviously... I mean, c'mon, over Iron Maiden?
I was nobody. Nothing.
Nah. Not Iron Maiden. I know people love them. Not Judas Priest or Megadeth or Slayer or Anthrax or Pantera, either.
Those bands are all seminal and have huge followings. But Metallica is just, the biggest fucking metal act for people in our generation, in the world. I'm sure I'm right about this on a quantitative level. I can't imagine another actual metal act has possibly sold more metal to more impressionable fans. They were the gateway.
Like, remember when you were in the sixth grade, and ALL the really bad kids in the EIGHTH grade had on Metallica shirts?
And then, they put out that black album, and half of everyone you knew had a copy, and backtracked to the previous albums, and wanted to pretend like they'd heard them, first?
I know I'm projecting my own experience here, but just, with the sheer numbers, I'd imagine it was like that nationwide.
They were kind of the "ambassadors of metal."
Last edited by elevenism; 05-09-2021 at 11:54 PM.
Active Member
I would imagine that both Slipknot and Korn push that, each separated by a handful of years. For better or worse depending on how one feels about either act.
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Except that Metallica managed to remain in the mainstream spotlight. They had a number of years ahead of the nu-metal bands before rock radio became endangered species, and bands were not on the charts and the closest thing to rock on pop radio was Maroon fucking 5, and even then Metallica remained a top-selling live act while they didn't have that kind of exposure.
Banned
And by 12th grade, everyone had chucked their Metallica shirts and replaced them with Pantera and NIN shirts
tempus est umbra in mente
yeah, but the hive-mind of young musical tastes isn't really a great way to gauge the importance of something really? I remember when I was a kid, everyone was listening to Ugly Kid Joe.
Also, the two biggest "punk bands" when I was in high school were generally Green Day and Blink 182.
I was nobody. Nothing.
Dallas is an anomaly in that regard. The Pantera shirt came quite a bit earlier for a lot of us.
@Jinsai , the hive mind of young musical tastes isn't the POINT, here, though. I just used it as a corollary to illustrate their popularity, which = number of records sold, which equals influence, in this case.
Yes, pseudo one hit wonders like UKJ might have sold a lotta records for a few months, but, sales wise, Metallica is up there with Fleetwood Mack (edit: i'm leaving that autocorrect. fleetwood MACK, yo.) and U2 and the Bee Gees. The ONLY other "metal" acts in that ballpark are Led Zeppelin and AC/DC. And they ain't metal, in my book.
Also, dude? As much as I hate to say it, who is the most important, most ubiquitous, most influential "punk" band of the past 25 years? If it ain't Green Day, it's probably Blink 182.
Who else could it be? Rancid? I mean, I don't even LIKE much of any of that shit, and I know NOFX is more legit, but man, those numbers don't lie.
Last edited by elevenism; 05-12-2021 at 04:45 AM.
tempus est umbra in mente
But, I think the point I'm making more than anything else is, numbers don't matter beyond marketing department success. If they did, Blink 182 would be "a more important punk band" than The Ramones
Bite me
Bingo.
When I think "metal," I automatically think of music ... not t-shirts, or how many kiddies "know" them or whatever the fuck.
And there is only ONE truly greatest metal band: Black Sabbath.
Period.
Let's look at numbers, for shits and giggles:
Metallica album sales, worldwide: 125 Million
Iron Maiden album sales, worldwide: 100 Million
Black Sabbath + Ozzy solo album sales, worldwide: 122 Million
Motley Crue album sale, worldwide: 100+ million
Led Zeppelin sales, worldwide: 200-300 million
Garth Brooks album sales, worldwide? 148 million
Last edited by allegro; 05-12-2021 at 02:32 PM.
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Maybe a controversial opinion, maybe not:
I much prefer Miles Davis bop to Miles Davis' later stuff where he plays one note for 10 minutes until my ears bleed.
Last edited by allegro; 05-12-2021 at 04:42 PM.
Active Member
For younger generations, they are.
Bite me
More important only in a sense of fandom; not in a sense of history and influence.
If not for the Ramones, Blink 182 wouldn't exist.
That being said, if not for the Stooges, the Ramones wouldn't exist.
And the Stooges haven't done dick as far as record sales or t-shirts. But they're still "important," whether Blink 182 fans acknowledge it, or not.
Having been there during the origins of punk, and having seen the various directions that "punk" has gone, obviously Blink 182 is "skate punk" that you can sing along to, and very melodic, vs. hardcore punk that I was used to in more original versions of "punk rock." There were always various types of punk; fast, slow, reggae-influenced, ska-influenced, hardcore-influenced.
Like, some of my favorite punk was from the Dickies.Irreverent, taking classic songs and ... um ... Dickifying them.
But, when I think of classic punk rock back in the day, this was my Go To, and I NEVER get tired of this, below. Because it wasn't just about the music. Punk was about THE ATTITUDE. It was about FUCK ALL YOU ASSHOLES. FUCK ANDY GIBB! FUCK FLEETWOOD MAC! FUCK FOREIGNER!! FUCK BOSTON!! FUCK Margaret Thatcher. Fuck the Queen. It was fuck rock stars, fuck skinny ties, fuck fashion, fuck all you poseurs, fuck all of you materialistic assholes stuff.
But, as far as the best "punk" band since the original wave of punk.. my vote goes to Fugazi. Saw them live 3x, great shows, very low-frills, great fun.
Last edited by allegro; 05-12-2021 at 05:23 PM.
tempus est umbra in mente
+1 for Fugazi
Throbbing Member
I enjoy pretty much all the phases of Davis' career. The Second Great Quintet albums are probably my favourites, but yeah, I love the later electric stuff - Live Evil, On The Corner, Agartha, and Dark Magus are stand outs. Here, set aside twenty minutes and treat yourself:
I mean, come on!
Administrator
i only got to see fugazi once. pretty fucking good.
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Throbbing Member
To be fair to Blink182, whenever I've seen them interviewed about this sort of thing they are always pretty self aware of punk's history and Mark Hoppus in particular always says they are "pop-punk" as opposed to og punk. Because of that attitude I'm a fan of them and I find their stuff fun. At this point their fans are old now too and I hope they've also learned about punk's history since they were in middle school but who knows.
As far as the fuck you corporate poseurs attitude of punk's origins, i agree with you. However, I also think that almost every music scene/genre feels this way AT FIRST and then of course fast forward 20 years and that same attitude is then sold in consumer friendly packaging, t-shirt included. It happens to every generation and every generation swears when they are young that it won't happen to them.
And I don't have any strong opinions on who the greatest punk band is but for whatever reason when I think of punk this pops into my head.
I was nobody. Nothing.
Well, YEAH. And Garth Brooks has made the most impact on country, in my lifetime at least.
Metallica has made the biggest impact on metal.
And due to being as perennial and timeless as the Beatles, Led Zep is still the most important hard rock act of all time, I think.
I already conceded that Sabbath was more important than Metallica. I'm also not metallica stanning here: hell, I've seen Ozzy 4 times and Metallica ONCE, when I was 13.
But I think that in genres that aren't pop or hip hop, you CAN measure influence and importance by record sales.
Also, note that I'm talking about RECENT shit. So, ok. The Ramones INVENTED pop punk. There's no argument about that. No Ramones, no Green day. And the Sex Pistols invented punk, period, I'd say. No Pistols, no Ramones.
But like I said about Metallica vs Sabbath, who's been on the radio more in the past 25 years or so: the Ramones, or Green Day. What have more people LISTENED to?
Edit: also, Blink 182 is one of the only bands in the world I actively dislike, for the record. They're not skate punk; skate punk is NOFX and Pennywise. They are pop punk, which is a strange, yet pervasive genre with an oxymoronic name.
Last edited by elevenism; 05-13-2021 at 06:17 AM.
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I remember the "cool punk boys" in my high school only liked Rancid and Black Flag. If you didn't like either of those bands, you weren't "cool."
Bite me
Here's where we differ.
I totally disagree.
Rock was built almost entirely on the back of poor blues guys that most rock fans can't even name, who didn't make shit for money and didn't sell any records.
Even the Stooges, who are acknowledged as the "Godfathers of Punk," haven't done SHIT in record sales. Yet they are constantly cited as an influence by other bands that DO sell millions of records.
No, the Ramones invented punk. If there wasn't the Ramones, there wouldn't be the Sex Pistols.
Or any other punk band.
The New York punk scene pre-dated the London punk scene, at least according to those who coined the term in the United States.
Malcolm McLaren used to manage the New York Dolls. He saw the New York punk scene, said "wow, look at this" and went back to London, and gathered up a bunch of guys in a clothing store McLaren owned in London. And the Sex Pistols were formed.
Punk wasn't strictly about music; it was a subculture. It was an ethos. It was anti-corporate, anti-greed, anti-materialism, anti-rock star, anti-mainstream, anti-jock, anti-macho, anti-consumerism, anti-fashion. Selling a lot of records was actually considered BAD. (It still IS to guys like Ian McKaye. It still was to punks like Kurt Cobain who struggled with it.)
Artists like Iggy, Patti Smith, Lou Reed, etc. are considered the high priests and priestesses of punk, not strictly due to the sound or stylings of their music, but primarily due to the fact that they weren't even TRYING to sell a bunch of records, and due to their anti-establishment attitudes.
Last edited by allegro; 05-13-2021 at 01:57 PM.
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Sales certainly aren't the end all be all but they play a factor. A band like Nickelback has sold a shit ton of albums and it's impossible to not think they've influenced a lot of artists out there today.
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yeah, except in their case it was "don't do that".
Banned
I remember senior year in HS, my friend who was a hardcore legit punk rocker was wearing a Queers t shirt and got kicked out of school for the day after they demanded he remove the shirt and he refused. I also remember all my punk friends laughing at how Green Day and Offspring were posers and how it was "jock music"....
Bite me
is the favorite band of strippers.
Matador de Froot Loops
When someone says "punk" i think both of the Sex Pistols and The Misfits, but to me The Misfits are the "definitive" punk band!
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not so much a controversial opinion but I have no opinion on The Misfits. I didn't even hear of them until I was mid to late 20s and even then it was just as "these guys influenced a lot of bands". I tried to listen to their stuff and it was too late for me, nothing there was interesting.
It's hard discovering the Ur of an entire genre after the genre has been disassembled and transformed so much over the years. You hear what they were doing and can only think "X did it better and also knew how to play their instruments".
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I cannot and never could stand X. Hate them. Blech.
I don’t think there is a definitive punk band as far as “sound” because that’s not what punk was or is about. (Except if there was a punk band that sounded like Foreigner, that most certainly would not be a punk band at all.)
I have no opinion on the Misfits. They’re seminal, of course. But I tend to like punk singers who can’t sing lol.
I do, however, love the Circle Jerks.
And of course the Dead Kennedys
Last edited by allegro; 05-13-2021 at 01:56 PM.
I was nobody. Nothing.
I'm only going to make a timid argument here, about punk, because I only really like punk that's called "post-punk" or "college rock" or "new wave" or "no depression." Or Public Enemy, or The Prodigy, even.
And that is to say that: I did NOT know that NY scene predated the UK, but the Pistols were far, far NASTIER than the Ramones. I think the Pistols are at least AS important than the Ramones, in that way: I think they ADDED more to the punk ethos than the Ramones created to begin with.
As far as the arguments you're making about rock, well, yeah. We can do that all day.
Let's look at hip hop that way. we'd be talking about Kool Herc, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Marley Marl, Afrika Bambaata. And then Run DMC, Salt-N-Peppa, Eric B and Rakim.
OR, we could talk about Jay Z, Nas, Eminem, and Outkast, Tupac and Biggie, which is like, pretty much the generic top 5. They sold an absurd number of records and everybody listens to them.
I'm just going by what more people LISTEN to. You're coming from a "who was the originator" angle.
By that metric, with rock, well, fuck yes, we can talk Lloyd Price and Muddy Waters and Bo Diddley and Robert Johnson. Hell, I'd even throw a Hank Williams and an Ike Turner in there.
But everybody's gonna say Elvis invented rock, and that Zeppelin was the most important rock band, because they brought it to the masses: even though they STOLE it.
I'd say both approaches are valid, for sure.
But, with Metallica: yes, Sabbath invented it. And there are LOTS of metal bands who are BETTER than Metallica. I was just kind of thinking of who put the most halfway decent metal in people's ears, and who put the most asses in seats at metal shows.
I'm not really talking about influence on other ARTISTS. I was talking more about societal impact.
Last edited by elevenism; 05-13-2021 at 02:20 PM.
I was nobody. Nothing.
I don't think he meant X the BAND. I think he meant the algebraic X.correct me if I'm wrong, here.
Exene sings on the third Old 97s album, though. She's got a cool voice at least
Last edited by elevenism; 05-13-2021 at 02:07 PM.
Bite me
I don’t know how to accurately measure “societal impact.”
Record sales isn’t a reliable indicator of social impact, because: (1) People steal records, (2) That type of “impact” is mostly reflected in revenue, not necessarily in politics, culture or influence, etc.
Music tends to reflect society, not impact it. If you look at protest songs of the 60s, punk of the 70s, hip hop (especially of the 80s), it reflected the ills and complaints of society; it didn’t necessarily influence any change.
Hip hop music was appropriated by white culture, and infused by millions of white dollars. Ditto for the blues being appropriated by white artists.
Elvis did to “black music” the same thing; he took what was largely taboo music, shook his taboo hips, and sold it to the white masses.
Jazz, same thing.
Mozart: Died and was buried in a pauper's grave. Influenced tons, didn't make shit.
Last edited by allegro; 05-13-2021 at 03:34 PM.
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