The Trayvon Martin killing

[orestes]

Zimmerman in custody and to be charged today.

[sweeterthan]

Zimmerman in custody and to be charged today.

I am so glad our justice system has determined that he should be charged with 2nd degree murder. This is a victory for all americans.

I do hope the Sanford Police department will be investigated as well.

[orestes]

Because of this damn "Stand Your Ground" law, only a grand jury can charge him with first-degree murder and that is no longer an option.

[Fixer808]

It's unlikely, but he could still get life.

[50 Volt Phantom]

So when can we start the protests about this?

He's white, so it's what he deserved for being privileged. /sarcasm

You should know that no liberals actually care about what happens to someone like him, he doesn't fit their description of a true victim, had he been black and the other people white then there'd be a discussion. Of course they'd never admit it, gotta keep up that compassionate front.

[theruiner]

^^False equivalencies abound.

[littlemonkey613]

*facepalm. I outlined my points 5 billion times and you have yet to grasp what I was saying at all. Everyone can be a victim and everyone IS an oppressor. Stop spewing your hatred that is not founded in fact and historical or sociological reality. I already explained to you the nature of race and privilege (which enslaves ALL OF US btw) but you weren't having it because you just wouldn't! And somehow everything I say is wrong just because I say it.

I have no problem calling what happens in that video straight up horrible and disgusting. Notice how we don't get defensive when faced with obvious truths?

[theruiner]

Let's not let facts and logic get in the way, here.

[50 Volt Phantom]

Ya, go ahead and pretend I'm not right. Where's the outrage on the New Black Panthers stating either today or yesterday that they are building an army for killing? Where's the outrage that Holder won't investigate clear voter fraud but is going to make sure this circus show is thorough? Oh ya, the NBP's are probably a righteous group in many eyes here and who gives a fuck about voter fraud if it helps the Dems. Ya, like I said, pretend I'm not dead right about you guys. You've all clearly decided Zimmerman is guilty, so you know what, I hope the case exposes Trayvon's past and I hope Zimmerman walks away.

[theruiner]

Now you're just clearly trolling.

[orestes]

Funny how the only people spooking over an imminent race war are white people.

[50 Volt Phantom]

Is that you're go to response when you know deep down I'm right? Come on, where's the tread about the NBP ruiner? Are you going to start one?

[50 Volt Phantom]

*facepalm. I outlined my points 5 billion times and you have yet to grasp what I was saying at all. Everyone can be a victim and everyone IS an oppressor. Stop spewing your hatred that is not founded in fact and historical or sociological reality. I already explained to you the nature of race and privilege (which enslaves ALL OF US btw) but you weren't having it because you just wouldn't! And somehow everything I say is wrong just because I say it.

I have no problem calling what happens in that video straight up horrible and disgusting. Notice how we don't get defensive when faced with obvious truths?

The difference is if someone hadn't called attention to it and called you all out you wouldn't feel the need to even mention it, like I said, gotta keep the compassionate front alive.

And get over it, I'm not going to discuss your privilege noise.

[theruiner]

Is that you're go to response

Only when someone starts making irrational, inflammatory claims based on absolutely nothing in order to get a rise out of people.

[50 Volt Phantom]

Oh you mean like all the race baiters on the left that saw nothing more than an opportunity in Trayvon's death?

[littlemonkey613]

How the hell would something about Trayvon's past have to do with what happened? Even if you don't think this has anything to do with race I had no idea you were actually arguing that somehow Zimmerman was in the right. Its pretty norm for someone to get charged with at least manslaughter even when the other person's death was an accident. Zimmerman didn't even accidentally shoot Trayvon. You should be rooting for justice. I think its pretty gross to hope that Trayvon deserved to get killed. This is a dead kid we are talking about, and your letting your animosity towards liberals dilute that fact and dehumanize him.

Also you said before you aren't against sociology but the existence of privilege is pretty much the gravity of sociology.....you can't even take a sociology class in high school without getting the notion of privilege out of the way in the first chapter. You are the one being irrational because you keep putting sentiments in our mouths. Since when were we okay with someone getting hurt just because they happen to be in a majority? We are all part of some majority. These are overlapping and interconnected issues. Haha they aren't "black and white" so to speak. I just don't understand how you think centuries of race and gender inequality can go away in a matter of decades. It was also really annoying how you equated racism and privilege because they aren't the same at all....and I explained the difference quite clearly.

You refuse to talk about it? haha are your views on race your religion or something? What harm can come from addressing my points?

For the record, I am against the idea of hate crimes and people getting punished heavier for them, I just think its important to have a discussion about race when its an obvious problem. Still, I don't want and was never advocating for the racial aspect to affect the judge's decision in terms of a punishment.

[50 Volt Phantom]

We don't know enough of the full story to know if Zimmerman was in the right or not, but again, you all have already made up your minds. If Zimmerman was defending himself, and as of now I believe he may have been, then he is in the right. But if you're all going to cheer for his guilt without the full picture, then I'll glady cheer for his innocence in the same manner.

[littlemonkey613]

Well I mean it'd have to be some miraculous turn of events. I'll grant you there's no way to be certain of what happened however, even if Martin DID go after Zimmerman, self defense only applies to using the same amount of force to protect yourself. I really see no conceivable way in which someone twice as small, should have been killed when Zimmerman was the one who followed him and was the only one who was armed. Furthermore the reason everyone is all horrified by this is that it took SO LONG for Zimmerman to be arrested. This is not normal for this kind of case! The way this whole thing was handled was botched from the get go. When someone ends up dead, and that person was unarmed and a legal minor then the shooter is arrested at least on the grounds of manslaughter because self defense is just not conceivable. Then in court when he is being charged he can defend himself, which is what will happen now but my God that took an extreme amount of unprecedented effort just to get to the point we should have started at...

[Elke]

We don't know enough of the full story to know if Zimmerman was in the right or not, but again, you all have already made up your minds. If Zimmerman was defending himself, and as of now I believe he may have been, then he is in the right. But if you're all going to cheer for his guilt without the full picture, then I'll glady cheer for his innocence in the same manner.

I think you're wilfully ignoring a couple of things:
1) when I feel threatened, I kinda tend to run away. I don't call the police, ask if I should follow the person who I deem threatening and then ignore their advice not to follow them. If I would do this, and get beaten up, I'd kind of feel like maybe I made the wrong call back when I ignored the cops. That I called. And asked what to do. Who said I shouldn't do what I then proceeded to do.
2) this isn't even about race, as much as it is about the idea that a percieved threat is enough to justifiably kill someone. Which brings me to three:
3) the Stand Your Ground law tries to make it redundant to even ask the question if Zimmerman's defending himself was justified. If someone feels threatened by nerdy white guys in college garb, they're allowed to shoot them in the head. However, oddly enough, most people don't. Because
4) yes, if you're wandering around a really rough neighbourhood where gangs are fighting turf wars, you might be justified in feeling threatened by a black guy in a hoodie. If you're a South African during Apartheid, I'm sure white people would seem equally threatening. That doesn't mean that every white guy's going to try to kill you and rape your wife and daughters. And it doesn't mean that every black guy everywhere, like say in a gated community, is a gang banger fighting a turf war. However, certain US media seem to impress the stereotype of the black gang member on its public's mind's eye. [Similarly, we Europeans suffer from Angry Arab Youth syndrome.]
5) skittles. Zimmerman was, for all we know, threatened with skittles.

Also, Martin's past? Completely irrelevant.
If the nerdy white bespectacled guy I feel threatened by is a released pedophile who hasn't relapsed but still has violent sexual fantasies about raping babies, my shooting him in the head is still not justified. Unless he was trying to abduct my baby with his skittles.

There. Yet another quasi-rational response to your irrational hatemongering. Now piss off, or give a reply that doesn't consist of populist bullshit and logical fallacies that would make Rush Limbaugh frown.

[allegro]

The Special Prosecutor, Angela Corey (watch her full statement here):

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tray...r.php#47022673

[50 Volt Phantom]

I think you're wilfully ignoring a couple of things:
1) when I feel threatened, I kinda tend to run away.

That's a real shocker.

Also, the irony of calling me an irrational hatemonger while you all sit idly by and let Sharpton, black Dems, and the NBP stir up racial tension and division across the country is pretty entertaining. I've proclaimed from the start this has nothing to do with race, and that his skin color would have had nothing to do with my analysis of the situation had I been in Zimmerman's shoes, I've been in enough situations to know that anyone is capable of any number of bad things.

[allegro]

The law does not look at race in this matter; and the legal system is not viewing this as a racial crime.

Can we just stick to a logical discussion, here, instead of all this irrational (not within the legal scope) incendiary arguments? (A judge would throw most of you out of Court, and hold a bunch in contempt.)

We can get into why "race" matters in Zimmerman's motives, but why don't we let this case play out, allow the Prosecution to present its case, introduce facts and evidence, and see where this goes?

I'm most interested in this case setting precedence and clearly defining (or repealing) Stand Your Ground.

I have guns, I shoot them, I'm probably a better shot than any of you. But, vigilantism is a dangerous thing that can bring out nuts like Zimmerman; and Jim Crow is what black activists are worried about. And, having been in law for 23 years, I see their point.

[Tiz]

Allegro, I raise your "racial liberal bias", and check you on "cogent support" of your assertion. A Caucasian couple was randomly kidnapped, raped, decapitated, and murdered by four African-Americans. The story was covered on local news, and ultimately squashed. I intentionally negated details of the crime for a reason. Do not click the link if you're in a good mood.

[Elke]

Tiz, I was lazy and only read the wiki page, and while I get the comparison in terms of the question of 'under reporting' I think the circumstances are vastly different, no?
Like I said, I think the most important aspect here is the law itself, and the idea that the notion of a threat is enough to justifiably kill someone.

Oh, and 50 Volts: it's even less of a shocker that your reply contains one ad hominem and one straw man argument, and nothing else. Somewhere Rush Limbaugh feels your hot breath in his neck.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Allegro, I raise your "racial liberal bias", and check you on "cogent support" of your assertion. A Caucasian couple was randomly kidnapped, raped, decapitated, and murdered by four African-Americans. The story was covered on local news, and ultimately squashed. I intentionally negated details of the crime for a reason. Do not click the link if you're in a good mood.

"Five people were arrested in connection with the crime . Eric Boyd was convicted in federal court of aiding the alleged ringleader, Lemaricus Davidson, after the carjacking and murders and is serving an 18-year prison sentence."

The perpetrator was arrested. Arrested. Arrested. Arrested. The police investigated, did their job, and got the guy. The criminal justice system worked. Awful, yes. Equivalent to Trayvon, no.

Zimmerman was not arrested, and wasn't going to be unless everybody screamed at the police to do their job. That is the story the media keeps covering, and it is the injustice that the public outcry is aimed at. People don't protest every time bad things happen . . . but they do protest when our justice system turns a blind eye to events it should be straightening out.

What did it take to get justice for Christian and Newsom? The local police were on the case as soon as they had figured out something was wrong. What did it take to get justice for Trayvon? We're still getting there, but it took several weeks of protest and media coverage to even get Zimmerman arrested. Special prosecutors had to be assigned, the FBI is now involved. So what's causing the difference? People are so ready to see Trayvon as the aggressor that even though he had no paraphernalia on him that would indicate he was going to rob or hurt anyone, even though he lived in the area and had a perfectly good reason for being there, even though the police have a 911 call making it clear that Zimmerman was going to pursue him while armed (and not the other way around) . . . we want to believe Zimmerman's story about self defense. While it's not physically impossible that Martin struck first, the evidence against Zimmerman is overwhelming. It should have led to an arrest. It did not. Why not? This is what makes people suspect race as a factor.

[Tiz]

"Five people were arrested in connection with the crime . Eric Boyd was convicted in federal court of aiding the alleged ringleader, Lemaricus Davidson, after the carjacking and murders and is serving an 18-year prison sentence."

The perpetrator was arrested. Arrested. Arrested. Arrested. The police investigated, did their job, and got the guy. The criminal justice system worked. Awful, yes. Equivalent to Trayvon, no.

Zimmerman was not arrested, and wasn't going to be unless everybody screamed at the police to do their job. That is the story the media keeps covering, and it is the injustice that the public outcry is aimed at. People don't protest every time bad things happen . . . but they do protest when our justice system turns a blind eye to events it should be straightening out.

What did it take to get justice for Christian and Newsom? The local police were on the case as soon as they had figured out something was wrong. What did it take to get justice for Trayvon? We're still getting there, but it took several weeks of protest and media coverage to even get Zimmerman arrested. Special prosecutors had to be assigned, the FBI is now involved. So what's causing the difference? People are so ready to see Trayvon as the aggressor that even though he had no paraphernalia on him that would indicate he was going to rob or hurt anyone, even though he lived in the area and had a perfectly good reason for being there, even though the police have a 911 call making it clear that Zimmerman was going to pursue him while armed (and not the other way around) . . . we want to believe Zimmerman's story about self defense. While it's not physically impossible that Martin struck first, the evidence against Zimmerman is overwhelming. It should have led to an arrest. It did not. Why not? This is what makes people suspect race as a factor.

And where, exactly, did I criticize the U.S. Dept. Of Justice? Allow me to explain to you in a way you can grasp. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Also, reading comprehension.

[theruiner]

And where, exactly, did I criticize the U.S. Dept. Of Justice? Allow me to explain to you in a way you can grasp. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Media coverage. Also, reading comprehension.

Wow. You completely- and I mean completely- missed the point of everything he said. Reading comprehension, indeed.

[Tiz]

Hypothesis, evidential support. Ching.

The consensus on this board is the media coverage was a reaction to the lack of arrests made in the Trayvon case. Which implies if the case of the Caucasian couple remained unresolved - it would have been given more significant media coverage. Is that inference correct?

[theruiner]

Not sure why you didn't just say that in the first place, instead of saying the exact opposite. Again, reading comprehension.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how this case/trial develops. I can see this stretching out for at least a year (that seems to be the way these things go, anyway).

[Tiz]

Can you not have a conversation without coming across like a sour tampon? It's a conversation. Relax. The amount of snarky condescension in this topic is more comical than anything. I half-expect you to sandbag me with your merse. I made my point. If you cannot understand a friggin textbook hypothesis - that's your problem, champ. "Whaaa, I jump to conclusions, and now feel like an irrational dumb ass."

And to completely belabor the point...I disagree with the inference that the lack of justice LEAD to media coverage for Trayvon. It's by-numbers, racially charged sensationalism that turbocharged media coverage. Hence why Zimmerman's Hispanic half is being understated.