Trans Rights

[eversonpoe]

Noone is telling you how to live your life, I just meant that you shouldnt try to tell other people, in this case someone in a restaurant having a conversation between them, how to live theirs. If they want to discuss the problem with trans athletes in sports that is their right, don´t you think?

You said you had microagressions - how is a conversation between two people that don´t know you and are not even talking about you (I assume you are not a competing athlete) an agression?

Sorry but all the hormones in the world won´t change the fact that a trans woman twice the size and probably twice the muscular mass of a woman has an advantage. So a discussion about that can be had without having it interpreted as an agression, especially when it is not about you.

Microaggression is a term used for commonplace daily verbal, behavioral or environmental slights, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative attitudes toward stigmatized or culturally marginalized groups.

taking estrogen (in the case of trans women) decreases muscle mass and strength; taking testosterone (in the case of trans men) does the opposite. you're being extremely reductive in saying that trans women are "twice the size" of cis women because that is rarely the case. there is no PROBLEM with trans athletes, the problem is with transphobes trying to keep trans athletes from competing.

you're telling me that i shouldn't be offended by people near me having a conversation that is inherently transphobic. that's not dissimilar to telling a black person to just ignore an inherently racist conversation happening nearby. you're minimizing its effect and, yes, TELLING me what to do.

i'm not denying it's their "right" to have that conversation, but that doesn't make it less hurtful or harmful. and also it was a family with kids, which means those kids are hearing their dad spout transphobic rhetoric, which they are likely internalizing, which perpetuates the cycle of discrimination. how do you not see that as a negative outcome?

and i didn't tell anyone anything. i didn't interact with them.

[decadent]

It is inconceivably stupid to me that you are conflating their anger with a conversation they experienced in public with an attempt to deny the people having that conversation their rights. I can't even wrap my head around that. That's not a fucking rights issue. What is a rights issue is the ability to exist in a public place safely without having to listen to people talk about them an endangering way.

The word "rights" pertains to legal issues and legal issues only. Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners.

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation? And how is this discussion endangering anyone at all?

I think this is what snaapz means when talking about extremes.

[eversonpoe]

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation? And how is this discussion endangering anyone at all?

I think this is what snaapz means when talking about extremes.

oh my god, get out of this thread. now.

[cdm]

Reminder to mash that ignore button when people aren't arguing in good faith.

[decadent]

taking estrogen (in the case of trans women) decreases muscle mass and strength; taking testosterone (in the case of trans men) does the opposite. you're being extremely reductive in saying that trans women are "twice the size" of cis women because that is rarely the case. there is no PROBLEM with trans athletes, the problem is with transphobes trying to keep trans athletes from competing.

you're telling me that i shouldn't be offended by people near me having a conversation that is inherently transphobic. that's not dissimilar to telling a black person to just ignore an inherently racist conversation happening nearby. you're minimizing its effect and, yes, TELLING me what to do.

i'm not denying it's their "right" to have that conversation, but that doesn't make it less hurtful or harmful. and also it was a family with kids, which means those kids are hearing their dad spout transphobic rhetoric, which they are likely internalizing, which perpetuates the cycle of discrimination. how do you not see that as a negative outcome?

and i didn't tell anyone anything. i didn't interact with them.

Well studies found that the advantage stays even a full year of hormon therapy: https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-...ort/a-58583988

I am not saying that all trans women are twice the size but I guess in most cases they have a physical advantage. Which gives them an advantage even after hormones, at least after one year. How is it fair if you have trained your whole life to compete and than get beaten by this advantage? In sports on the highest level it is all about the small details and the fine margins.

[eversonpoe]

love the way these people are ignoring so much of what i'm saying and only responding to the things on which they think they can pull a GOTCHA!

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME? WHAT IS YOUR INVESTMENT IN THIS?

[Toadflax]

Noone is telling you how to live your life, I just meant that you shouldnt try to tell other people, in this case someone in a restaurant having a conversation between them, how to live theirs. If they want to discuss the problem with trans athletes in sports that is their right, don´t you think?

You said you had microagressions - how is a conversation between two people that don´t know you and are not even talking about you (I assume you are not a competing athlete) an agression?

Sorry but all the hormones in the world won´t change the fact that a trans woman twice the size and probably twice the muscular mass of a woman has an advantage. So a discussion about that can be had without having it interpreted as an agression, especially when it is not about you.

"Boys who say they're girls" is a microaggression, and "micro" is being extremely generous. It's one thing to overhear people having a respectful conversation about a current issue; it's another to overhear someone use shitty language to describe a people you identify with. It's exactly the same as overhearing someone say, "they've started letting blacks into my country club, so I'm looking around for something else." Just because they're not talking about you doesn't make it not painful. Yes, it is in those people's rights to state their opinions and to state them loudly enough that others can hear. That doesn't mean it's not incredibly shitty.

Also, you're only taking one example and saying it's not a big deal, but she gave three examples, one of which happened to her directly, while the other two spoke in a derogatory way toward her identity. When people say they feel attacked or underrepresented or undervalued, it's not up to us to decide whether their feelings are valid.

[decadent]

love the way these people are ignoring so much of what i'm saying and only responding to the things on which they think they can pull a GOTCHA!

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME? WHAT IS YOUR INVESTMENT IN THIS?

My investment is that I find that trans women in sports have an unfair advantage and that there can be a discussion about it without the whole community jumping you.

I understand that the terms they used in the conversation are shitty, so I am sorry you had to hear this there.

So in order to not be responsible for more microagressions, lets leave it at this.

[Toadflax]

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

Sports matter regardless of whether they matter to me (they don't) or you. It's an enormous industry, and the people who excel in the industry make a good living off of it. It also brings families together and is incredibly meaningful to many people. More importantly to this issue, sports breeds celebrities, who can influence entire societies and become heroes and role models to thousands of people. Most major sports celebrities are straight cis men, which means a whoooole lot of people are being shown straight cis men as the exemplar of success, influence, celebrity, etc., while everyone else is relegated to a B-tier position. Representation matters, therefore how any industry that breeds celebrity (sports, movies, music, politics, etc.) handles representation matters.

[Toadflax]

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation?

This right here. This is the problem. She said it bothered her to hear this conversation. YOU said she was saying they don't have the right to do this. YOU said she was saying they should be kicked out of the restaurant.

You are the one creating these "extremes" you're complaining about.

[decadent]

Also sports is a mode of recreation. Sports do not matter. It's so childish that you people act like sports are a *real issue.* It's a childish game. You guys think that there's some meta game shift where men are transitioning to win at a stupid game? Do you listen to yourselves??? How do you even put your shoes on?

Are you kidding me? Professional athletes devote their live to a career in sport. How would you feel as a woman when you spend 20+ years training and devoting your life to a sport and then a transwomen comes in, faster and stronger, brings in an unfair advantage and starts winning in front of women who have until now competed only between themselves? Come on, how is this fair to all girls and women that life for their sports career???

[decadent]

This right here. This is the problem. She said it bothered her to hear this conversation. YOU said she was saying they don't have the right to do this. YOU said she was saying they should be kicked out of the restaurant.

You are the one creating these "extremes" you're complaining about.

Nope, let me quote Wretchedest "Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners."

I wasnt answering to eversonpoe on that one.

[cdm]

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-righ...letes-debunked

[Wretchedest]

Are you kidding me? Professional athletes devote their live to a career in sport. How would you feel as a woman when you spend 20+ years training and devoting your life to a sport and then a transwomen comes in, faster and stronger, brings in an unfair advantage and starts winning in front of women who have until now competed only between themselves? Come on, how is this fair to all girls and women that life for their sports career???

Where has this happened in a real way at all? When trans women finish transitioning do they place better? No. Is there an influx of trans athletes into the WNBA for instance? No. This is just ridiculous nonsense. About games.

[Wretchedest]

Oh wow, so people should be kicked out of a restaurant because they have an opinion which they discuss in a private conversation? And how is this discussion endangering anyone at all?

I think this is what snaapz means when talking about extremes.

People get kicked out of public places for expression all the time.

If you start talking in a way that is distressing or upsetting to other customers, you are going to be tossed out. This is how business has always been conducted in these spaces.

[Toadflax]

Nope, let me quote Wretchedest "Let's be real fucking clear about that. No one is suggesting that the offending diners be tossed in prison or fined, but perhaps ejected from a private establishment by well meaning owners."

I wasnt answering to eversonpoe on that one.

Understood. But also, in response to your original question, yes, just as transphobic people have the right to state their opinion loudly enough that others can hear, so do restaurant owners have the right to kick them out for doing so. People have been kicked out of restaurants for offensive behavior for as long as restaurants have been around. As for whether a certain behavior qualifies as offensive, that's completely going to vary on a case by case basis. To your point, there's a wide spectrum from a quiet conversation no one was intended to overhear to standing up and pointing at someone whose lifestyle you don't agree with and making a scene. But I'm sure you've been to a restaurant where people were talking much more loudly than they need to be. That in itself can be incredibly disruptive, which of course is made much worse if the actual things they're saying are offensive, whether it's something like transphobia or just something like using foul language.

[decadent]

Where has this happened in a real way at all? When trans women finish transitioning do they place better? No. Is there an influx of trans athletes into the WNBA for instance? No. This is just ridiculous nonsense. About games.

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports

Another example was in MMA. How is fighting a transwoman in MMA fair?

[cdm]

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports.

Screenshot 2023-04-12 at 3.54.22 PM.png

You copied and pasted from a google search and you didn't bother to read the article: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2091218.html

* chefs kiss *

[thelastdisciple]

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports

You spoke of spending 20+ years training and devoting your life to a sport and you think THEY the trans people haven't? That they just walked out of some factory ready to fucking go? It doesn't work like that.

And please tell me what's going to happen when they're stuck competing with a gender that doesn't share their own physical attributes, that does not reflect who they are given society is where it's at right now?

You think that men's locker room is going to welcome a Lia Thomas with open arms in the current climate? It's been bad enough before with the problems of homophobia and racism.

Then what happens after that, will we need leagues exclusively comprised of trans individuals? Oh but guess what, they will also all have different physical attributes, strengths and skill just like any other athlete... can't be having any unfair advantages �� and how do you figure that one out? hmm i wonder? It's almost as if there are different categories and skill levels to accommodate these differences and trans people don't belong only because.... because why? You fear them and what you don't understand, that's the only reason.

[Wretchedest]

Yes, it has, for example: Lia Thomas became the first openly transgender athlete to win America's top trophy in university sports

Another example was in MMA. How is fighting a transwoman in MMA fair?

Your evidence is that one of them won one time?

[decadent]

Arent those two examples? How many more do you want? You asked if it ever happened, I gave you examples.
@cdm hey Sherlock, he asked and I answered, what is so difficult to understand? I read the article - it doesnt prove anything. A win is a win, like I said it is about fine margins and Thomas won. Can you prove that Thomas swam at 100%? No, you cannot. Maybe 80% was enough to win and not set a record so all hell wont break loose.

So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?

[eversonpoe]

Arent those two examples? How many more do you want? You asked if it ever happened, I gave you examples.
@cdm hey Sherlock, he asked and I answered, what is so difficult to understand? I read the article - it doesnt prove anything. A win is a win, like I said it is about fine margins and Thomas won. Can you prove that Thomas swam at 100%? No, you cannot. Maybe 80% was enough to win and not set a record so all hell wont break loose.

So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?

where's the "two different scientific resarches" that prove trans women have an advantage over cis women? where is it?

everything you're saying comes from a place of ignorance and thinly veiled transphobia. i'm going to ask you one more time - leave this thread. you have no place in this conversation. i don't want you here.

[cdm]

Don't get all bent out of shape because you did a c/p drive-by thinking the article proved your point when it actually refuted it. Take the fucking L.

And given your track record so far, please cite the two different "researches" you're referring to.

[Wretchedest]

Arent those two examples? How many more do you want? You asked if it ever happened, I gave you examples.
@cdm hey Sherlock, he asked and I answered, what is so difficult to understand? I read the article - it doesnt prove anything. A win is a win, like I said it is about fine margins and Thomas won. Can you prove that Thomas swam at 100%? No, you cannot. Maybe 80% was enough to win and not set a record so all hell wont break loose.

So you all honestly believe that it is fair that trans women should participate in womens sport even though they have an advantage as proven by two different scientific researches?

But the the way you've attempted to answer this question only proves all of my points.

First of all, your data has no fucking context. Is this above the baseline for normal performance in this field? This consistently so? If so is that increase above the baseline typical for trans individuals? How does that performance stand amongst the other performances of that individual? Turns out, the answer to all of these questions puts this woman at below average... You are just tripping out over nothing.

Presenting only a few victories has a serious problem: it implies that, in order for this to be fair, trans people must lose every time.

And then, when some of that context was provided back to you, you extrapolate into a serious of paranoid, baseless speculations rooted in sheer bigotry. That article does you another severe disservice by pointing out that two of the largest co.petitive sports organizations already have longstanding guidelines about trans inclusion that actually very specific, which shows that these organizations, which have a greater steak in this issue than you do, have already researched these kinds of outcomes and determined them to be a non-issue

[decadent]

But the the way you've attempted to answer this question only proves all of my points.

First of all, your data has no fucking context. Is this above the baseline for normal performance in this field? This consistently so? If so is that increase above the baseline typical for trans individuals? How does that performance stand amongst the other performances of that individual? Turns out, the answer to all of these questions puts this woman at below average... You are just tripping out over nothing.

Presenting only a few victories has a serious problem: it implies that, in order for this to be fair, trans people must lose every time.

And then, when some of that context was provided back to you, you extrapolate into a serious of paranoid, baseless speculations rooted in sheer bigotry. That article does you another severe disservice by pointing out that two of the largest co.petitive sports organizations already have longstanding guidelines about trans inclusion that actually very specific, which shows that these organizations, which have a greater steak in this issue than you do, have already researched these kinds of outcomes and determined them to be a non-issue

How many times do I need to paste the link, just do your homework and check my previous replies:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-...ort/a-58583988

So yes, even after a year of hormones treatment they still have an advantage.

[eversonpoe]

[Wretchedest]

How many times do I need to paste the link, just do your homework and check my previous replies:

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-...ort/a-58583988

So yes, even after a year of hormones treatment they still have an advantage.

"If you are looking for information on cisgender athletes, you'd never use studies on non-athletic trans people. You just wouldn't do that. It's just that we don't have any data on trans athletes. So I think you have to take the results with a certain grain of salt."

"None of the experts interviewed support a blanket ban on trans athletes, which is in line with a recent study"

So I don't really take this article as really proving your point. Even so I've absolutely never heard of this website before, so it is very, very difficult to trust it or grant it any kind of authority. I will say that the information presented in this article is very focused on one aspect: muscle mass, which is really just one component of this. It circumvents data that would really matter, which is more results oriented data.

[decadent]

"If you are looking for information on cisgender athletes, you'd never use studies on non-athletic trans people. You just wouldn't do that. It's just that we don't have any data on trans athletes. So I think you have to take the results with a certain grain of salt."

"None of the experts interviewed support a blanket ban on trans athletes, which is in line with a recent study"

So I don't really take this article as really proving your point. Even so I've absolutely never heard of this website before, so it is very, very difficult to trust it or grant it any kind of authority. I will say that the information presented in this article is very focused on one aspect: muscle mass, which is really just one component of this. It circumvents data that would really matter, which is more results oriented data.

If you gonna use random quotes from the article I can do the same:
Do trans women have an advantage when competing in elite sports?

Without hormone therapy — yes. But even with hormone therapy, current research suggests trans women still maintain an edge in strength.

The website is probably the biggest German news broadcaster, so no need to take it with a pinch of salt - it is state-funded and as serious source as there is.

[eversonpoe]

everything you're saying comes from a place of ignorance and thinly veiled transphobia. i'm going to ask you one more time - leave this thread. you have no place in this conversation. i don't want you here.

get the fuck out of this thread, decadent. now.

[cdm]

You’re not very good at this.