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Thread: Joker

  1. #1
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    Joker

    There's a lot of talk about this movie in the DC thread, but this deserves it's own thread.

    Interesting article about the film's controversy:
    https://www.rollingstone.com/culture...allout-891081/

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    Yes! Hyped for this film!

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    Please remove 'The' from the thread title. It'll bug me, lol.

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    I'm excited and will see this ASAP. I have a strong feeling it'll really deliver a great story and Joker portrayal. Phoenix is a great actor.

    I hate the negative press, media warnings and "protestors" who are boycotting this movie from existing because "it shows violence, promotes bullying," etc. Insipid morons. Basic case of "wah, I don't like it and don't want it to exist and if you like it and want to see it too bad. I want to block you from it by banning it." Don't like or want to watch it, fucking don't go.


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    "promotes bullying?" I thought it was the opposite; that it was intended to side with the bullied as an anti-hero... Just remember, it's all the fault of the Hollywood elite media... It's everyone's fault but the guns.

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    People who are complaining about the backlash to this movie are entirely missing the point I think. This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now. It's completely reasonable for a major chunk of the American population to feel uneasy about this movie coming out. It's not about whether people don't like it and just want it taken away for some political agenda. It's that this movie feels IRRESPONSIBLE and potentially DANGEROUS at this current moment in time. Coupled with the fact that there has ALREADY been a mass shooter who pretended to be the Joker and shoot up a movie screening of TDKR.

    You can be annoyed all you want, but to ignore the fact that a large chunk of American society is uneasy about a movie coming out that chooses to side with the type of people carrying out these attacks, is a bit naive. And when the film's director and star go on TV lashing out at those critics, rather than trying to ENGAGE in conversation about the topic, it's all quite telling behavior.

    I am personally going to see it, and am expecting a pretty good movie. But I'm not going to sit and act like those who are uneasy about this film aren't valid.
    Last edited by richardp; 09-28-2019 at 01:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardp View Post
    This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now.
    Have you seen it? If you haven't, then come back with a statement like this after seeing it. Does it feel irresponsible to release a movie like this at the current time? Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere in the world. I will be going to see this movie in Mexico and will not be afraid at all at the theater. Also, if you are in the US the chances of something like this happening to you at a theater are slim. Yes, you Americans have a mass-shooting problem (the only place in the world with such an issue), but statistically speaking, the odds of you being at the wrong place at the wrong time are really really low.

    I feel like this movie will address the issue of mental health in an interesting way. Glad to see a blockbuster film talking about something like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardp View Post
    People who are complaining about the backlash to this movie are entirely missing the point I think. This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now. It's completely reasonable for a major chunk of the American population to feel uneasy about this movie coming out. It's not about whether people don't like it and just want it taken away for some political agenda. It's that this movie feels IRRESPONSIBLE and potentially DANGEROUS at this current moment in time. Coupled with the fact that there has ALREADY been a mass shooter who pretended to be the Joker and shoot up a movie screening of TDKR.

    You can be annoyed all you want, but to ignore the fact that a large chunk of American society is uneasy about a movie coming out that chooses to side with the type of people carrying out these attacks, is a bit naive. And when the film's director and star go on TV lashing out at those critics, rather than trying to ENGAGE in conversation about the topic, it's all quite telling behavior.

    I am personally going to see it, and am expecting a pretty good movie. But I'm not going to sit and act like those who are uneasy about this film aren't valid.
    The problem is not the movie. The problem is this country has become unhinged and deranged. The rest of the world will enjoy this movie like normal human beings. America has a problem and it has nothing to with movies, but no one wants to face it.
    Last edited by neorev; 09-28-2019 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    The problem is not the movie. The problem is this country has become unhinged and deranged. The rest of the world will enjoy this movie like normal human beings. America has a problem and it has nothing to with movies, but no one wants to face it.
    I mean yeah pretty much.

    The only backlash for this film is in America, where shit like this is happening daily. No one is talking about canceling the movie for the entire world? The rest of the world gets to enjoy the movie as such because the rest of the world has sensible gun laws and isn't living in a fantasy world about domestic violent attacks.

    So again it absolutely makes sense that this movie is making American audiences uncomfortable. Again to just tell a nation dealing with constant PTSD over this to "just deal with it and don't see the movie" is naive and missing the point.

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    People should actually see the movie first before deciding what it does or does not promote.

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    First off: not a superhero fan at all. Couldn't care less about Marvel / DC / whatever. But Phoenix is an actor who impresses the shit out of me, and Batman was part of my early career path, so I'm mildly interested in seeing this.

    Now, that said: after watching the trailer, it feels like they're portraying him in a very sympathetic role. It's like they want people to feel for him, understand why he goes batshit insane, and be okay with it. It really feels like they're trying to normalize, if not promote, the idea of "it's okay to become a murderous villain if people treated you like shit your whole life". Maybe a year from now when I grab this from the library and see the whole thing, I'll get a different impression.

    Almost anywhere else in the world, this would be fine. Because people seem healthy and rational and capable of realizing that this is just a work of fiction. But I honestly believe that here, as I said, it helps to normalize the notion that revenge is good. And in this country, at this point in our timeline, where someone literally shot up a movie theater while pretending to be this character and our real life president incites violence against anyone who you mistakenly think is your enemy, it just feels kind of tone deaf to be promoting this kind of content. Like...read the room. I enjoy dark humor, but I'm not going to crack a bunch of jokes about death at my grandma's funeral, you know?

    That's my two cents, anyway.

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    To me it just feels like a light re-telling of The Killing Joke graphic novel with a bit more an anti-hero role involved. Anyone with a sensible brain knows this is a fictional movie and that portrayals of villainous people is not glorification. Banning or not watching something due to the content doesn't mean that stuff like this doesn't exist in the world. So banning it to stop people from seeing stuff like this won't stop evil in the world. If anything, major network news is more violent and damaging than a 2.5 hr movie about a fictional clown villain that's existed for nearly 80 years. Also, is there a female fascination portion of the film I don't know about? How does this glorify or dedicate sympathies to incel "culture" exactly?

    As for the talk of revenge role this film portrays, to me it shows the dangers of society as a whole and how it can turn a person upside down. For a deep philosophical meaning (LOL) this movie studies a normal schlub who is a victim to society and it damages him to the point of being deranged and he lashes out. Not every Joker portrayal has been this way so this makes it fresh to me. As I've seen other places online for Joker portrayals:

    Jack Nicholson - Mobster created by classic chemical vat origin story
    Heath Ledger - A disheveled man obsessed with anarchy and showcasing humanity and soceity's faults
    Jared Leto - Uhhhhhhhhh
    Joaquin Phoenix - A victim of society who loses his way

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    Quote Originally Posted by richardp View Post
    People who are complaining about the backlash to this movie are entirely missing the point I think. This is a movie that seems to promote (very unapologetically, I might add) the type of incel-based violence that is so rampant in this country right now.
    Who knows... I'm guessing it veers closer to the tragic victim turned anti-hero -> villain trope... like Carrie. Or if they go darker, I dunno, Taxi Driver. Those are some of my favorite movies.

    I haven't seen it yet though, so I don't know. Maybe it'll just suck.
    Last edited by Jinsai; 09-28-2019 at 07:36 PM.

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    Yeah, a lot of deconstruction over a trailer and some reviews.

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    I think the movie looks great but I'm also by no means removed from thinking that It looks like porn for nihilists.

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    My teenage self would kill me for saying this, but I can understand the concerns and the calls to censor/restrict it.

    I'm very interested in seeing it. I'm not going to go and kill someone.

    But there are a lot of things that can provide encouragement to someone who might. And this might seem like implicit support.

    We need to be careful with things that can seem like implicit suport. There's a reason Trump shouldn't be allowed on television, he incites violence. A movie could have that impact.

    It's not out yet, so obviously I can't pass judgement on whether or not it actually seems like implicit support for violence, and I grew up playing doom and loving violent video games and movies. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'm starting to see how these things could potentially send a message of support to someone who's on the edge of committing some kind of atrocity.

    They most certianly won't cause violence on their own, but if someone is close to making that call, it's possible a violent movie or violent video game could give the wrong message and push them over the edge.

    I'm going to go see it at some point anyways, because I think it's going to tell a very interesting story, but I can also understand the calls to stop.

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    There are tons of violent films that are released each year without incident, so the idea that one of them is going to spur mass violence is absurd to me, no matter what the subject matter is. If it wasn't for the theater shooting in 2012 and the current political climate, nobody would be talking about this.

    And art shouldn't be censored. Period. End of story.

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    Ban movies that "might icite violence" today, ban music that "might incite violence" tomorrow, due to their violent content. You know, like Nine Inch Nails...

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    People need to stop acting like the people who commit these crimes are rational people. Clearly they aren't. Sure they could be influenced by a film to do something bad. But they could also be influenced by the bible or even something as juvenile as bad customer service.

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    The people that commit these crimes are mentally ill, and art only serves to act as a scapegoat so people can avoid talking about the real issues. Where are these people who are trying to stir up controversy with this film when those issues need to be discussed? They've got their heads in the sand and their asses pointing at the sky.

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    Yes, a safe and sanitized world where we make sure nothing out there triggers absolutely no one no matter what. We will all be safe and sound with nothing to challenge us or make us think or make us feel because God forbid we do.

    FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

    This kind of bullshit will only lead to the deepening of this country's mental derangement because no one can actually face up to anything that challenges them whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Beach View Post
    People need to stop acting like the people who commit these crimes are rational people. Clearly they aren't.
    This, exactly.

    I'm going to add my comment from the DC thread, which is better suited for this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by mfte View Post
    Forbes has an interesting article about the panic surround this movie. It compares what is happening now to how D&D was demonized in the 80s and how "goth" culture was looked at in the wake of Columbine.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidip.../#6fc0e353b564
    It's a bit different. D&D players and goths are harmless geeks for the most part, with Satanic and/or violent aspects being projected onto them by Christian fundamentalists. Just because one member of a subculture decides to commit a crime doesn't mean that everyone who dresses like them should be demonised. The important thing to note here is that D&D/goth is not a world view or a sociopolitical standpoint.

    For Joker, it's the opposite. Incels are already known to have maligned and potentially dangerous points of view. They're not playing some game or listening to a specific genre of music, their entire raison d'etre is to be misogynistic hatelords who blame everyone else for their own failings (especially women, who they see as sub-human). They view instigators of mass shootings as saints. To associate themselves with such an utterly evil, twisted character as the Joker says it all, really. People have been gunned down in cinemas over less. There is a real threat here of actually dying, and people are understandably scared.

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    I'm in the "it's just a movie" and "art shouldn't be censored" camp.

    Crimes have been "inspired" by Natural Born Killers, Fight Club, The Town, taxi Driver, The Deer Hunter, The Matrix- hell, A Clockwork Orange inspired so much that Kubrick himself had it pulled from theaters. And the list goes on and on.
    But, I love all those movies.

    I like what @neorev said. I don't want an utterly sanitized world where everything has to be totally "safe."

    We're all here because of a particularly transgressive band. I think it's a goddamned miracle that TDS hasn't been blamed for suicides.

    It's just a movie. The movie looks particularly badass to me.

    And I don't want to live in a world where I can't see such a movie because everything has to be totally "safe." The world isn't safe.

    And people who commit crimes "inspired by movies" were probably lunatics to begin with.

    It's a VERY slippery slope, if we start censoring art.

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    Glad to see Sinatra's "Send in the Clowns" being used in the movie. Great song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    Yes, a safe and sanitized world where we make sure nothing out there triggers absolutely no one no matter what. We will all be safe and sound with nothing to challenge us or make us think or make us feel because God forbid we do.

    FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

    This kind of bullshit will only lead to the deepening of this country's mental derangement because no one can actually face up to anything that challenges them whatsoever.
    It's almost like we're not living in America anymore...really getting ridiculous.

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    Censorship sucks. Next thing you know they’ll wanna ban The Downward Spiral because it “encourages self harm”

    The only people who should have a say in censoring something should be the creators

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    Quote Originally Posted by cahernandez View Post
    Does it feel irresponsible to release a movie like this at the current time? Maybe in the US, but not elsewhere in the world.
    I was born and live in Toronto, which is not the USA. An avowed incel murdered ten people on a busy street a few kilometers North of where I live outside the headquarters of the Toronto District School Board. He ran over them, and dozens more innocent people, on a so-called "mission" to assassinate and terrorize "Normies" with a rented van, and the entire city has been on tenterhooks ever since while we wait for a copycat to take up his challenge of an "incel uprising".

    Please, everyone, stop insinuating that this is a US-only problem, or that a piece of cinema specifically targeted by an enormous corporation with millions of dollars in its marketing budget to an online fan base adjacent to radical cells of terrorist scumbags is CENSORED — it should be interrogated for whether it handles the issue responsibly. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Beach View Post
    People need to stop acting like the people who commit these crimes are rational people. Clearly they aren't. Sure they could be influenced by a film to do something bad. But they could also be influenced by the bible or even something as juvenile as bad customer service.
    Watch the interview I just linked. The murderer explains in emotionally detached but quite logical terms how he became "radicalized" (his own word) by copying the actions of people whose twisted ideologies he felt reflected his own experience.
    Last edited by botley; 09-29-2019 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    Watch the interview I just linked. The murderer explains in emotionally detached but quite logical terms how he became "radicalized" (his own word) by copying the actions of people whose twisted ideologies he felt reflected his own experience.
    Key words being "emotionally detached". You're essentially putting the cart before the horse. People don't commit crimes because of movies/TV shows/songs/etc. It doesn't "activate" a person with good mental health to do something wrong, which is what a lot of people would like to believe is the case. These people already have issues, and chances are they were going to act on their murderous impulses with or without seeing/hearing a particular piece of art. Again, the idea that we should hold art up as being in any way responsible for what these people do is absurd.

    Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me. These fuckers want people to remember them when they commit their acts, and round the clock discussion about such things is one way to make sure people never forget what they do.
    Last edited by BRoswell; 09-29-2019 at 10:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRoswell View Post

    Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me. These fuckers want people to remember them when they commit their acts, and round the clock discussion about such things is one way to make sure people never forget what they do.
    I was thinking something similar. In a way it is like the argument Dr Wolper makes in the Dark Knight Returns claiming that Batman actually creates the very villains he is trying to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRoswell View Post
    Something else: did anyone think, before hyping this film up as being possible inspiration for these incel fucks, that doing so might actually inspire someone to do something stupid? Putting that kind of discussion out there is more dangerous than the film if you ask me. These fuckers want people to remember them when they commit their acts, and round the clock discussion about such things is one way to make sure people never forget what they do.


    We blame a movie yet it's the news hype machine that is doing all the work and damage. You legitimize and give weight to these lowlifes and their deranged beliefs thus giving them exactly what they want... attention and promotion.
    Last edited by neorev; 09-29-2019 at 01:40 PM.

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