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Thread: Biden 2021 - "Listen, Jack."

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Suicide View Post
    20 years is long enough.
    20 years was way too long.

    We should not have been there in the first place. Or Iraq. Or Libya. Or Vietnam. Or Yemen. Etc. etc.

    The Afghanistan goalpost kept moving.

    First, it was because the Taliban was harboring Osama bin Ladin (since 1996). We killed bin Laden (in PAKISTAN) in 2011, but by then our goalpost had moved to “they harbor Taliban terrorists.”

    NOW it’s “the Taliban abuse women.” Which they have done since they were founded in 1994. We didn’t go in there with a plan to rid the country of Taliban and to Westernize the country.

    But that’s always how it ends up; that’s really why the goalpost optics move.

    Because we are altruistic? NAHHHHHH. Because there are LUCRATIVE CONTRACTS involved in this shit!

    We’ve been there 20 years due to lucrative contracts. Period.

    Biden’s own SON served in Afghanistan. It was up to Biden to end this shit, RIP THE BANDAID OFF, no matter how bad it looked.

    It was always gonna look bad. It always does when we shouldn’t have been there, with no genuine goals, just profiting off of people’s suffering.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-19-2021 at 05:24 PM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    We’ve been there 20 years due to lucrative contracts. Period.
    Yep! Gotta keep the war machine fed with blood and pain. It's the American way!

  3. #183
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    There are currently 5200 American troops on the ground in Kabul, and President Biden has made it clear that he wants NO empty seats on every evacuation flight; evidently, that hasn't always been the case.

    They are evidently keeping gates into the area closed and opening them only as they fill the capacity available for the planes that are to take off, to avoid the chaos that happened when people rushed in to overtake the planes.

    But now people are crowded for miles waiting to get in, for many hours. The are only flying out about 9,000 per day; they really need to step this up, we likely need help from other countries, because there are as many as 65,000 Afghan citizens to evacuate (after a 20-year conflict, not surprising).

    What amazes me is that many American and Afghan troops weren't even BORN when September 11 happened.

    The current deadline is 8/31, but Biden says they will continue until everyone gets out, even if the 8/31 deadline has to be extended.

    The US military hopes to move 5,000 to 9,000 people a day, but they have not been able to meet that goal since the evacuation process started. Gen. Hank Taylor, the deputy director of the Joint Staff for Regional Operations, told reporters at the Pentagon Thursday that in the past 24 hours, 12 C-17 transport aircraft took off with more than 2,000 passengers. He described that as an increase in capacity, saying it "is reflective of both a ramp-up of aircraft and airlift capability, faster processing of evacuees and greater information and fidelity in reporting."

    US military troops on the ground in Kabul have opened additional gates at the Hamid Karzai International Airport hoping to increase the number of people who are able to enter and board evacuation flights, Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said at the same briefing.

    "We've got additional consular officers at these additional gates with additional troops helping the consular officers, so I think we're poised to see an increase, but I want to be careful before I make predictions," Kirby said. "What we're trying to do, what we want to drive, is an increase. That's very much on everybody's mind."

    To facilitate evacuations, the US military is in "communication with the local Taliban commander about making sure that those at-risk Afghans, Special Immigrant Visa applicants and additional Afghan citizens that we want to move through are able to move through," Kirby said.

    But Afghans in Kabul are battling massive crowds and violence to make it to the airport gates, only to wait for hours to enter once they've made it there.

    The State Department sent a notice to thousands of locally employed staff at the Kabul embassy on Wednesday, telling them that they can come to the airport for evacuation flights, according to the message reviewed by CNN.

    The Afghans who made it into the airport were bloody, mentally distraught, having lost most of their belongings along the way, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter.

    Some decided they didn't want to pursue the perilous journey even though they desperately want to get out of the country, multiple sources told CNN. Others who did take the dangerous risk had to turn back after facing an untenable situation.

    "I decided I would rather the Taliban shoot me in the head to being stuck in that situation," said one Afghan who worked at the embassy for years in describing his journey to CNN.

    He went to the airport with his family, including small children, at 4 a.m., only to get caught in a horde of thousands of people on the outskirts of the airfield which left him fearing for his life. He watched as his 2-year-old son grew dehydrated and men tried to inappropriately touch his wife. The gates remained closed for too long.

    The Pentagon acknowledged they have seen "reports of the Taliban harassing, and physically so, some Afghans that were trying to move to the airport," Kirby said during the briefing. Conversations between the US military and the Taliban to ensure safe passage for those Afghans "continue," Kirby said.

    While Afghans report instances of violence outside the perimeter of the airport, the Pentagon said there had been "no hostile interactions" between the Taliban and US forces or American citizens on Thursday.

    The Pentagon said it was focused on securing the Kabul airport when asked why US troops are not being used to retrieve Americans who are unable to get there.

    The US Embassy in Kabul on Wednesday advised that it "cannot ensure safe passage" to the airport, despite the Pentagon underscoring alleged Taliban assurances that it will ensure safe transit.


    Since the end of July, the US military has flown out 12,000 people with 7,000 of that total were flown out in the last five days alone, Gen. Hank Taylor, Deputy Director of the Joint Staff for Regional Operations said Thursday.

    That 12,000 number includes "American citizens, US embassy personnel, individuals designated by the State Department as [Special Immigrant Visa] applicants and other evacuees in coordination with the State Department," Taylor said.

    When asked how many Americans remain in Afghanistan currently, Kirby did not provide a number.

    Biden told ABC the US estimates between 50,000-65,000 Afghan partners and their families are trying to get out of the country. In order to get them out before the August 31 deadline, the President said, evacuations will have to ramp up.
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/19/polit...ion/index.html
    Last edited by allegro; 08-19-2021 at 05:41 PM.

  4. #184
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    What SUCKS is that this isn't gonna look good on Biden, in the short term or the long term.
    Those people running and hanging onto that plane: that's American History. They'll be showing that footage for 50 years.
    Also, I'm a LITTLE bummed out that Joe won't admit that he made a mistake by pulling the troops out before everyone was evacuated.
    I mean, I saw the interview with...I can't remember his name, but Biden was being asked if he'd made ANY sort of mistake or if he'd have done ANYTHING differently.
    And he said "no." THAT shit, that inability to own a miscalculation- that reminded me of his predecessor.

    I mean, if he didn't fuck up, why'd he have to send troops BACK?

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    What SUCKS is that this isn't gonna look good on Biden, in the short term or the long term.
    Those people running and hanging onto that plane: that's American History. They'll be showing that footage for 50 years.
    Also, I'm a LITTLE bummed out that Joe won't admit that he made a mistake by pulling the troops out before everyone was evacuated.
    I mean, I saw the interview with...I can't remember his name, but Biden was being asked if he'd made ANY sort of mistake or if he'd have done ANYTHING differently.
    And he said "no." THAT shit, that inability to own a miscalculation- that reminded me of his predecessor.

    I mean, if he didn't fuck up, why'd he have to send troops BACK?
    He didn’t pull troops out. He didn’t send troops back.

    There are currently 5,200 American troops in Kabul, growing to 6,000.

    When Trump left, there were 2,500 troops in Kabul. Biden increased that to 3,000. Then he said he’d follow through with Trump’s peace agreement (w the Taliban and the Afghan government), but extended it from 5/31 to 9/11. Then he changed the date to August.

    When the Taliban approached Kabul, Biden ordered that 3,000 more troops be deployed to Kabul.

    People hanging on to a MOVING CARGO PLANE may be desperate, but they were also SELFISH AND STUPID. They knew damned well that the plane was fully loaded with people, and that people were SHOOTING at the plane and charging at it, but they wanted to STOP the plane so they could get on.

    Or, maybe just stop the plane.

    Because the plane hadn’t even finished unloading its cargo when hundreds of Afghan civilians breached the fence and surrounded the plane, then began boarding it. This was not supposed to happen. The pilots knew they just had to get out of there.

    There’s a peace agreement, which is insures that Americans will get out safely. We had fully counted on our Afghan partners to provide security. Most of them left; only a fraction of them remain.

    What people want Biden to do is say fuck the peace agreement and start using combat to protect people trying to get to the airport.

    Because right now things are really fucked-up outside the airport (where our troops aren’t); the Taliban is supposedly beating people, including children. Crowds are so unruly, people are getting bloodied.

    This panic sets in ANY time we approach our “end” date; there’s no “good” way to do this when the opposition are TERRORISTS. And if we use combat as security to get people to planes, we are effectively back at war.

    Our opposition is a group of TERRORISTS who were or are NEVER going to roll out the red carpet or look the other way while Afghan citizens whom the Taliban considers traitors AND infidels attempt to leave and escape “punishment.” They were always going to seek retribution; they’re extremists. They’re terrorists. This was always going to happen, and unless we were willing to use bombs and armed drones and lots of guns and kill lots of people and blast our way out of there, which would be EVEN MESSIER, nothing was gonna be smoooth.

    People are bitching about the optics of a few people hanging onto a MOVING PLANE to try to STOP THE PLANE, instead of the hero pilots who managed to get that huge C-17 off the ground under those circumstances and rescued 670 people.

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/202...pt-sot-vpx.cnn

    Last edited by allegro; 08-20-2021 at 04:24 PM.

  6. #186
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    IMO, the only missteps that Biden and his people have made:

    In Biden’s TV statement, he effectively called the Afghan army and people cowards. This was wrong. The Afghan army “ran away” to go home to protect their wives and children from the TALIBAN, instead of staying to protect a “government” none of them ever gave a shit about.

    Afghan people are tribal people who care about their families, their religion, their daily lives, their town, etc. The LAST thing they care about is government. Also, there were communication issues that caused problems, primarily by the American and Afghan military staff. This wasn’t entirely their fault, as they were handed a shit deal from Trump.

    More about that shit deal here:
    https://thehill.com/opinion/national...fghan-collapse

    Props to the Afghan citizens actively protesting the Taliban right now in Kabul, including some VERY brave women.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-20-2021 at 02:54 AM.

  7. #187
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    @allegro , ah. I thought we'd withdrawn some, and sent some back. The right wing media sure wants to spin it that way. Also, i've been REALLY fucking sick, and perhaps, misunderstood some details.
    That being said, i'll be damned if EVERYONE who needs to be evacuated will be evacuated in the next 3 weeks or whatever...not when they can't even get to the airport.

    I agree that it's an unwinnable war. And i don't think we're supposed to be the world police.

    BUT, still, those optics are going down in the history books. The truth of the matter is unimportant to the general public, watching footage like that. And there's an undeniable bipartisan backlash going on, here.

    The Biden "honeymoon phase" is officially over.
    Last edited by elevenism; 08-20-2021 at 06:31 PM.

  8. #188
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    The images and video of the crowds passing young children overhead in hopes to save them are heartbreaking. That footage churns my stomach.

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    Here's somewhat of a contrary opinion calling it a betrayal.
    Last edited by r_z; 08-21-2021 at 04:24 PM.

  10. #190
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    Because of the strategic importance of Afghanistan, (remember, it borders Iran and Russia,) i can't shake the feeling that there's something more going on here. I think this may be a calculated move to prompt a response, that might lead to a desired outcome down the line.

    Don't ask me WHAT outcome. It's just a hunch.

    On the OTHER hand, it might be that it is what it is, and we'll start drone striking the shit out of Taliban assets this fall.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    @allegro , ah. I thought we'd withdrawn some, and sent some back. The right wing media sure wants to spin it that way. Also, i've been REALLY fucking sick, and perhaps, misunderstood some details.
    That being said, i'll be damned if EVERYONE who needs to be evacuated will be evacuated in the next 3 weeks or whatever...not when they can't even get to the airport.

    I agree that it's an unwinnable war. And i don't think we're supposed to be the world police.

    BUT, still, those optics are going down in the history books. The truth of the matter is unimportant to the general public, watching footage like that. And there's an undeniable bipartisan backlash going on, here.

    The Biden "honeymoon phase" is officially over.
    The agreement that Trump negotiated required us to close down all the U.S. military bases, etc.

    Here is the Trump agreement, dated 2/29/2020, which Biden is treating as if it’s still in full force and effect (even though the Taliban has violated it multiple times):

    https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upl...n-02.29.20.pdf

    The United States, its allies, and the Coalition will take the following measures in the first one hundred thirty-five (135) days:
    1) They will reduce the number of U.S. forces in Afghanistan to eight thousand six hundred (8,600) and proportionally bring reduction in the number of its allies and Coalition forces.
    2) The United States, its allies, and the Coalition will withdraw all their forces from five (5) military bases.
    See this Twitter thread:
    https://twitter.com/kurteichenwald/s...901071880?s=21



    This has mostly been a giant clusterfuck because Trump deliberately and vindictively left Biden a clusterfuck.

    Yes, Biden should have torn up the Trump “peace agreement” and opted to pull people out taking a YEAR, not months per the Trump timeline. Biden is obsessed with keeping his “progressive promises.” This time, he should have said fuck it.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-22-2021 at 10:33 AM.

  12. #192
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    I turn on my phone this morning and the top suggested news story was “Biden approval ratings fall amid Covid surge.” Sooooo... if I have ever seen a clearer example of Republicans steering their base to destroy themselves to pin the blame on a political opponent, I don’t know what it is.

    What exactly was Biden supposed to do?

  13. #193
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    Biden 2021 - "Listen, Jack."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I turn on my phone this morning and the top suggested news story was “Biden approval ratings fall amid Covid surge.” Sooooo... if I have ever seen a clearer example of Republicans steering their base to destroy themselves to pin the blame on a political opponent, I don’t know what it is.

    What exactly was Biden supposed to do?
    im definitely a leftist and i don’t think he’s doing enough. biden should push for covid lock downs in certain areas. i don’t think he has the guts to do it. he’s too much of a centrist so he will ride the “get vaccinated!” wave as proof he’s doing something. it just seems like it’s still spreading at alarming rates and the people in charge don’t have much urgency. i’m a little jaded since my kid got covid and my nin shows got cancelled.

  14. #194
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    I’m not even sure what the most far-left president could say or do to realistically spur on a proper response without making the whole thing an even bigger partisan issue, when really this never should have been a politicized issue.

    The fucked up thing though is that’s where we are now, and DeSantis and Trump actually have more power to do anything about it than Biden. If Biden pushed harder, these anti vaccine people will just get crazier and push back harder.

  15. #195
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    The President doesn’t have the authority to order lockdowns in states. The Constitution clearly prevents it. States have their own Constitutions and governments. He can provide incentives, but he can’t legally lock down the country. He can lock down Federal airports, Federal roads, anything Federal.

    States? He has zero authority.

    It’s up to each Governor of each state, and the individuals in each state.

    Our Covid rates in Illinois are pretty low. But climbing.

    Technically, there was no reason for Reznor to cancel out of RF other than his protecting himself.

    But, when you see these reports on Twitter of people who’ve been vaccinated getting Covid from outdoor events where vaccinations were required, there’s not a lot more we can do other than for us to refrain from attending these events. He has to protect his kids. Nobody else can do it except him.

    We can’t rely on “government” to do it.

    It’s up to us.

    I liken this to the story of Noah’s Ark. But my house is the boat, and the world out there is sinking.

    I’m getting on my goddamned boat, fuck it.



    Last edited by allegro; 08-22-2021 at 01:13 PM.

  16. #196
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    that’s why i mean when i say “push” for lock downs in “certain areas.” use his influence. ya know… lead in a time of crisis. it doesn’t seem like anyone (including biden) knows how to do it. we don’t need someone who’s playing it safe politically. we are being failed at the local, state and federal levels on this thing.


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  17. #197
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    He’s used every method of “pushing” possible.

    It’s only caused these governments to push BACK, claiming Federal abuse of power.

    Republicans say he should thank Trump for Operation Warp Speed.

    Biden did that last November.

    Republicans say that Biden should try to “appeal” to people’s fears.

    Biden did that, and Republicans bitch that Biden is not a doctor, and the decision to get a vaccine is between a doctor and patient.

    Biden rolled out a campaign showing himself and the VP and others getting vaccinated; Republicans called it propaganda.

    It’s not only Republicans who are causing problems, here. There’s a large group of Democrats who won’t get vaccinated, and who won’t wear masks, and who are loudly complaining on social media about not fully opening, etc., and how this is overly restrictive, classist, racist, all kinds of terminology. People seemingly don’t grok that nearly 650,000 Americans are dead, and that this Delta variant is a different mutation than the first round.

    If people are FUCKING STUPID, there is no amount of GOVERNMENT that can fix that. Ever.

    TRUMP told people to get the vaccine, said it was safe, and his own sycophants BOO’D HIM.

    Now I’m trying to get my Mom a 3rd shot. We are masking, indoors always and outdoors around people. I’m canceling plans. I didn’t come this far to end up on a ventilator.

    Humans are a bunch of cockroaches.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-22-2021 at 01:16 PM.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    It’s not only Republicans who are causing problems, here. There’s a large group of Democrats who won’t get vaccinated, and who won’t wear masks, and who are loudly complaining on social media about not fully opening, etc., and how this is overly restrictive, classist, racist, all kinds of terminology. People seemingly don’t grok that nearly 650,000 Americans are dead, and that this Delta variant is a different mutation than the first round.
    this is my point exactly. no one on either side republican or democrat is stepping up and making the hard decisions that no one likes. we have a whole department of viral experts telling us what to do but there’s a bunch of people who think those things are optional. there’s no unity anywhere. it fucking sucks.

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    this is my point exactly. no one on either side republican or democrat is stepping up and making the hard decisions that no one likes. we have a whole department of viral experts telling us what to do but there’s a bunch of people who think those things are optional. there’s no unity anywhere. it fucking sucks.
    Yup. And it’s because of selfishness.

    Edit:

    Fwiw, this is not new behavior.

    I highly recommend DeFoe’s “A Journal of the Plague Year.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-23-2021 at 03:55 AM.

  20. #200
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    Biden encourages vaccine, which will surely be seen as Nazi propaganda by the morons.


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    An explosion happened near Kabul airport. Oh boy..... :-(

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    Biden 2021 - "Listen, Jack."

    there’s a whole bunch of conservatives tweeting about service dogs left in afghanistan. there’s something not quite right about it and i can’t put my finger on what it is. They’re saying Biden left the dogs behind and he’s heartless.

    if you search “service dogs” on twitter, a bunch of conservatives come up.

    https://twitter.com/jackposobiec/sta...417709059?s=21


    edit: here we go. it’s misinformation. of fucking course. https://www.facebook.com/25641795446...595953445/?d=n

  23. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    edit: here we go. it’s misinformation. of fucking course. https://www.facebook.com/256417954468313/posts/3974899595953445/?d=n
    I can't see the Facebook link...what does it say?

    I did see the American Humane Society put out a statement about it but it only cites 'reports'. I had the same thoughts as you about how it seemed weird and astroturfed and scammy but I also didn't pay much attention to it.

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    I have such huge doubts about his claims. The reports I keep seeing say "contract" dogs in which case they aren't actually military working dogs. But why would you 'contract' something like this? it's really weird.

    and then there's this:
    Retirement[edit]

    Traditionally, as in World War II, US MWDs were returned home after the war, to their former owners or new adopted ones. The Vietnam War was different in that US war dogs were designated as expendable equipment and were either euthanized or turned over to an allied army prior to the US departure from South Vietnam.[57] Due to lobbying efforts by veteran dog handlers from the Vietnam War, Congress approved a bill allowing veteran US MWDs to be adopted after their military service. In 2000, President Bill Clinton signed a law that allowed these dogs to be adopted,[58] making the Vietnam War the only American war in which US war dogs never came home.[28][59]
    I know it's wikipedia but the crux is that the soldiers get really attached to their dogs and leaving them behind isn't really something they would do without causing a bigger stink.

    finally it would appear he's just appealing to the base dog lover because he's not really backing anything up.

    edit: having read just the very first reply that Facebook deigned to show me I can say that there are zero reading comprehension skills at work here.
    Emma GrayBoone Cutler have you seen this?? Because this goes directly against what you posted... If there are in fact 65 dogs left behind, we should be working together to get them home.
    Jessica JamesEmma Gray I read there were more. Closer to 100. 35 in one place and 65 in another.
    I feel dumber now having read some of those comments.

    Though the one talking about how the military spends a lot of money training them and wouldn't leave them behind is 100% true. When I was in half of my command were the people who take care of the dogs so I'm very familiar with that and how close the handlers get to them. You wouldn't see a single one of them just say "ok boy, stay here" and just get on a plane. no, they'd rather stay behind.
    Last edited by allegate; 08-31-2021 at 01:15 PM.

  25. #205
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    Another issue, as I read it, is people are conflating (some purposely, some not) this Small Animal Rescue organization with service dogs. These are stray animals service members befriended and wanted to adopt...wholly different than working military dogs.

  26. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdm View Post
    I can't see the Facebook link...what does it say?

    I did see the American Humane Society put out a statement about it but it only cites 'reports'. I had the same thoughts as you about how it seemed weird and astroturfed and scammy but I also didn't pay much attention to it.
    ah sorry. here’s a screen shot.

    i was actually thinking i should remove the link because it could be misinformation as well. the way the photo is being shared is bizarre. someone really wants biden to be a dog abandon-er (or something).



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    Good on Biden for not waivering. His approval will go up soon as the public is by in large fully behind getting out of there, and he will be remembered well for finally ending this. Let's hope the M-I complex gives us a break for a few years at least. And maybe Joe will pull our people out of Syria and Iraq too....dare to dream.
    Last edited by bobbie solo; 09-04-2021 at 04:07 AM.

  29. #209
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    Biden-adjacent?
    A Florida woman pleaded guilty to threatening to kill Vice President Harris. She faces five years in prison.
    Phelps pleaded guilty on Friday to six counts of making threats against the vice president — each representing one of the 30-second videos in which she said she would assassinate Harris. The mother of three now faces five years in prison.
    I feel like this isn't enough?
    Among Phelps’s reasons for making the threats, she later told investigators, was that Harris — born to a Jamaican father and an Indian mother — was not actually Black.
    Oh well that's fine then, perfectly fine reason to want this.

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