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Thread: Is It Right to Separate Art from Artist?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by elevenism View Post
    Beloved Renaissance artist Cararvaggio murdered a man by castrating him.
    Whoa wait a second …

    I have a minor in Art. Caravaggio is MY FAVORITE ARTIST. He was a Baroque artist.

    It’s complicated.

    https://www.biography.com/news/carav...minal-murderer

    Quote Originally Posted by burnmotherfucker! View Post
    I'm not trying to totally rule this out. But specifically with Maddox's story, there isn't a whole lot of credibility there from what I've read. But with the amount of coke Bowie did back in the day and the way the culture was I also wouldn't be surprised if similar stories were true.
    I was 13 back then and read the teen groupie mags. It was totally bizarre shit. I couldn’t believe these girls’ moms let them out like this. I still thought boys were gross, and these girls were having sex with rock stars.

    https://www.thrillist.com/entertainm...to-david-bowie

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ine-1883026409

    This was way before Bowie’s cocaine phase. He absolutely did fuck Lori Maddox. Bebe Buell confirmed it, as did Pamela Des Barres.

    But, “it was a different time” is actually the truth. It was the 70s.
    Last edited by allegro; 09-10-2021 at 11:39 PM.

  2. #152
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    I didn't know there was an Aziz controversy...
    The Louis CK thing definitely threw me for a confounding loop.

    I found myself wanting to defend him, because I loved that episode New Year's Eve, Season 3 Ep 13. I still think it's genius. Louis CK wrote, starred in, directed, and edited it. He did practically everything except the sound/music.
    It reduced me to tears. I really felt like I identified with the conflicting emotions the central character is navigating in a situation that I identified with way too much.
    At the very least I felt that the guy who made this knew enough about the human condition, and displayed a connection to empathy that was hard to not empathize with.

    But really, just because he's a brilliant person who is very attuned to his emotions and has some really insightful things to say about our shared condition...
    It doesn't spare him if he's a terrible person. Maybe we should watch what he made, and strive to fail less.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Whoa wait a second …

    I have a minor in Art. Caravaggio is MY FAVORITE ARTIST. He was a Baroque artist.

    It’s complicated.

    https://www.biography.com/news/carav...minal-murderer


    I was 13 back then and read the teen groupie mags. It was totally bizarre shit. I couldn’t believe these girls’ moms let them out like this. I still thought boys were gross, and these girls were having sex with rock stars.

    https://www.thrillist.com/entertainm...to-david-bowie

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-june-1973-star-magazine-1883026409

    This way before Bowie’s cocaine phase. He absolutely did fuck Lori Maddox. Bebe Buell confirmed it, as did Pamela Des Barres.

    But, “it was a different time” is actually the truth. It was the 70s.
    Interesting, yeah from what I understand it was pretty much the norm in rock n roll back then. But I wasn't there of course and I've barely looked into it but from the little I've read there were inconsistencies in Maddox's claims and I hardly think a playboy model and another memoir author confirming it makes it a fact. It doesn't mean it isn't true. But I'm just never convinced by hearsay.

    One of the links you posted was about her claim that she lost her virginity to Bowie. Problem is she had already claimed to have lost it banging one of the dudes from Zeppelin. So yeah as far as I'm concerned nothing she says can be seen as truth, I'd need more evidence.

    Here is another article that points out some major inconsistencies with her stories. Hell, maybe she did fuck Bowie, I sure wouldn't know as I wasn't there. But the facts seem to indicate she was a bit of an opportunist. And apparently Des Barres account actually invalidates her claim that she lost her virginity to Bowie. Who knows?

    https://medium.com/@msullivangates/a...n-b38681f24cf4
    Last edited by burnmotherfucker!; 09-10-2021 at 11:31 PM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by burnmotherfucker! View Post
    I hardly think a playboy model and another memoir author
    Bebe Buell is the mother of Liv Tyler; Bebe was living with Todd Rundgren for years (Liv thought Todd was her Dad for a long time), you don’t know much about Bebe Buell, but everybody back then knows about her. She was also friends with Bowie.

    https://wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion...city-10312467/

    Pamela Des Barres was whom Jimmy Page was bonking before he ran off with Lori Maddox. Maddox opportunist? She was a GROUPIE. And rock stars took FULL ADVANTAGE of them. Groupies were assumed to be there to “service” rock stars.

    Quote Originally Posted by burnmotherfucker! View Post
    “That seems especially strange given that — in no small part due to his publicly proclaimed bisexuality — Bowie’s sex life was, if anything, subject to more scrutiny and intrigue than the average rocker’s, not less.”

    This person obviously didn’t grow up in the 70s. Bowie’s sexuality was positively boring compared to others.

    Bowie said, years later, that he never was bisexual; that he only said that to drum up publicity.

    If he had sex with someone ONE TIME, why would anyone have pictures?

    Des Barres is also a head case whose books are full of flowery ramblings about her wasting her life chasing rock stars around and bonking them. The Jim Morrison chapter in “I’m With the Band,” OMG gag.

    At any rate, who cares? She was stating this back when Bowie was alive, he didn’t dispute it. Bowie’s pal Iggy was in fact with Sable. It was the 60s and 70s, it was really weird. And Bowie is dead.

    Maddox (Mattix) now says: “I wouldn’t want this for anybody’s daughter. My perspective is changing as I get older and more cynical.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...knroll-groupie

    MeToo has changed all this, especially. This can’t happen, anymore.
    Last edited by allegro; 09-11-2021 at 12:28 AM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Bebe Buell is the mother of Liv Tyler; Bebe was living with Todd Rundgren for years (Liv thought Todd was her Dad for a long time), you don’t know much about Bebe Buell, but everybody back then knows about her. She was also friends with Bowie.

    https://wwd.com/fashion-news/fashion...city-10312467/

    Pamela Des Barres was whom Jimmy Page was bonking before he ran off with Lori Maddox. Maddox opportunist? She was a GROUPIE. And rock stars took FULL ADVANTAGE of them. Groupies were assumed to be there to “service” rock stars.



    “That seems especially strange given that — in no small part due to his publicly proclaimed bisexuality — Bowie’s sex life was, if anything, subject to more scrutiny and intrigue than the average rocker’s, not less.”

    This person obviously didn’t grow up in the 70s. Bowie’s sexuality was positively boring compared to others.

    Bowie said, years later, that he never was bisexual; that he only said that to drum up publicity.

    If he had sex with someone ONE TIME, why would anyone have pictures?

    Des Barres is also a head case whose book is full of flowery ramblings about her wasting her life chasing rock stars around and bonking them. The Jim Morrison chapter, OMG.

    At any rate, who cares? She was stating this back when Bowie was alive, he didn’t dispute it. Bowie’s pal Iggy was in fact with Sable. It was the 70s, it was really weird.
    You are right, I have no idea who Buell is. My point wasn't that her story isn't true. Just that it isn't backed by evidence (that I've seen).
    Maddox isn't an opportunist because she was a groupie, she's an opportunist because she sold interviews while telling stories that were in fact lies. That kind of kills credibility no? I mean she couldn't have lost her virginity to both Jimmy Paige and Bowie so on at least one of those occasions she told a blatant lie. Des Barras, whom you mentioned, says it was Paige according to the article.

    The article mentions Bowie's claim of being bisexual because it is relevant to the topic at hand and it gives context to the times. Bowie claimed that and afterward every interview he did for a long time they asked him about his sex life. Hence, his sex life was under scrutiny. It's irrelevant that he later recanted that statement because the point is people back then talked about him in the gossip magazines.

    That article mentions that Maddox's stories about Bowie spanned a period of 10 years. Bowie was a big rock star, its reasonable to expect that he would have had at least one photo snapped of them during that time period. But yeah, its possible there was just never a photo.

    I'm not disputing any of it either because again, I don't know. I just make it a point to never believe hearsay without solid evidence. The only fact I can actually pull from all these articles is that Maddox lied about losing her virginity on at least one occasion. Everything else is circumstantial and leaves too much open to interpretation.
    Last edited by burnmotherfucker!; 09-11-2021 at 12:24 AM.

  6. #156
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    Lori admittedly was and is a goofball and it’s absolutely possible that she’s a total liar. There’s a web site dedicated to debunking Lori’s stories.

    https://lorimaddoxdebunked.tumblr.co...esoflorimaddox

    Everyone’s sex life was under scrutiny back then so that wasn’t really isolated to Bowie.

    Really, I thought it was worse when Bowie and Page were doing some Nazi imagery. Page was wearing an SS hat on stage. He wore a Nazi Storm Trooper uniform sometimes during the ‘77 tour. Bowie was just a straight-up Nazi. Or fear the Nazi. Or something.

    https://thequietus.com/articles/0359...-rock-movement
    Last edited by allegro; 09-11-2021 at 12:56 AM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Lori admittedly was and is a goofball and it’s absolutely possible that she’s a total liar. There’s a web site dedicated to debunking Lori’s stories.

    https://lorimaddoxdebunked.tumblr.co...esoflorimaddox

    Everyone’s sex life was under scrutiny back then so that wasn’t really isolated to Bowie.
    Oh wow, thats a lot of info in that link. I'm just about to pass out though so I'll have to give it a read another time.

    And I believe you that Bowie wasn't special when it comes to being under scrutiny. I don't think that was the point the article is making. It isn't about Bowie being unique in that regard but rather that he was in fact under scrutiny. Hence, it would have been unlikely he would have been able to hide a 10 year affair with someone at that time without some evidence eventually surfacing.

    And in an attempt to steer this back into the topic at hand, even if it were all true, I'm not giving away my Bowie records. The art is just too good.

  8. #158
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    Losing her virginity took 10 years? Jesus, he took way longer than Sting. LOL

    Maddox’s story about Bowie was always just one quickie, not a longer relationship thing.

    She was with Page after that.

    And Page had a gf and a child at home.

    That kid is Scarlet Page, now a famous photographer.
    Last edited by allegro; 09-11-2021 at 01:02 AM.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Losing her virginity took 10 years? Jesus, he took way longer than Sting. LOL

    Maddox’s story about Bowie was always just one quickie, not a longer relationship thing.

    She was with Page after that.

    And Page had a gf and a child at home.

    That kid is Scarlet Page, now a famous photographer.
    Come on now, I clearly said an affair over 10 years. I was referring to this section of the article that states...

    "One problem is that despite the fact that Mattix — who, in addition to Bowie and Page, claims to have had affairs with Mick Jagger, Jeff Beck, Ronnie Wood, Mickey Finn, Angela Bowie, Keith Emerson, Carl Palmer, and Jimmy Bain —asserts that she encountered Bowie multiple times over a period spanning ten years"

    Part of the problem is that this girl lied so much she probably moved that one story of her losing her virginity around the calendar over about a ten year span. In fact, I hadn't read about any of this since it came out a while back. I had remembered thinking that it seemed sketchy at best. But after this conversation and revisiting the article and seeing just how numerous the inconsistencies are, yeah, its enough to set off my bullshit detector.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Whoa wait a second …

    I have a minor in Art. Caravaggio is MY FAVORITE ARTIST. He was a Baroque artist.

    It’s complicated.

    https://www.biography.com/news/carav...minal-murderer
    Oh, i know. I was going "wide lens," if you will.

    And surely we're in agreement that he'd be cancelled now, probably WITHOUT his...defense of his lady's honor.

    Edit: as far as baroque vs renaissance, i'm sure you're right. I've forgotten 99% of what i learned in the few art classes i've had in my life. i just liked the pictures :P
    Last edited by elevenism; 09-11-2021 at 11:28 AM.

  11. #161
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    To be fair, you can’t say Caravaggio never got his comeuppance in his life. Cancelling him now would be absolutely moot.

  12. #162
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    So I've finally decided that I won't be able to separate art from its artist any longer. Congratulations, Roger Waters, you're an insufferable asshole.

  13. #163
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    Rogers Waters heart is in the right place generally (not always), but his takes are so often too extreme, lacking any nuance or wiggle room, or just plain wrong.

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    Being celebrated by Putinists these days should give him an idea what he's become.

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    They conveniently forget all the times he's called out Putin's thuggery and aggressions, though, because he has the balls to call out America's.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    So I've finally decided that I won't be able to separate art from its artist any longer. Congratulations, Roger Waters, you're an insufferable asshole.
    Ridiculous shit from Roger. His unwillingness to acknowledge the connections between the things he rails against and what he champions is really fucking bizarre. Wilful ignorance.

  17. #167
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    I hear hitler was a great painter.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVYDRNS View Post
    I hear hitler was a great painter.
    ...so great he got kicked out of art school.

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  20. #170
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    probably because he hated jews. and jews run the art world. duh /s

    clearly he didn't suck.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintings_by_Adolf_Hitler


    I hate that I may need to clarify. I am not a supporter of Hitler in any way.

  21. #171
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    Speaking of separating things, it’s kinda hard to separate Hitler the artist from not just Hitler the Hitler, but any modern day interest in his work into merit versus the external context. I doubt anyone would be looking at his art today if it weren’t for WW2.

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