With Teeth: Tentative Sequence

[Leviathant]

So basically, so far out of all of this, we have one new instance of TR saying “only” that isn’t available anywhere else?

At least one instance. You could paint with a broader brush: This copy of Only features a different vocal take.

So does that mean Good Day, etc, could still be legit tracks we haven’t heard? And that Home demo?

I'm 100% Confid.... arrrrgghhhhh

Yes, I believe the other CD is real, and I believe the descriptions that were provided at the time.

[Erneuert]

At least one instance. You could paint with a broader brush: This copy of Only features a different vocal take.



I'm 100% Confid.... arrrrgghhhhh

Yes, I believe the other CD is real, and I believe the descriptions that were provided at the time.

Yep, definitely time for that ETS-curated interview with Trent that I keep saying needs to happen. He can’t hide then.

edit: Just to remind everyone what was said by the owner a year ago and Rob Sheridan’s response to it:

I have one that has a date of 11-30-04. My cousin got if from a friend of his that worked as an intern at Interscope. He knew I was a fan, so now it’s mine. I think it’s legit. Probably turning in the track sequence to interscope to show the progress being made. “Cages” is RWIB. Mine also has demos of other songs from the era, Non Entity and Not So Pretty Now. There’s also demos of songs called Good Day , The End and Cover it Up. Cover it Up is the exact same music as The Idea of You, just different lyrics.

Rob:

Looks like one of the in-house ones I made on a home printer (hence the bootleg look) for TR to send out to the label & other contacts. Very weird to see that in the wild... Similar story to this one someone asked me about the other day:

Wow, that appears to be one of the ones I made (printing out on a home printer on cut-out CD insert template paper) that we sent out to record industry people and potential collaborators. That's even more rare than an official promo CD.


He then went on to allude to “Cover It Up,” “New Day” and “The End” being legit, but couldn’t comment further out of respect for TR. I can’t find that particular tweet now.

[sonic_discord]

Finally listening to this version of Only (by the time this thing was uploaded to Archive.org last year, the general consensus around here seemed to be that it was fake, so I never bothered to listen) and that alternate ending is really interesting. Maybe hearing the final version hundreds of times has made me biased, but I think the final version we all know is a far better and more fitting ending for the song. Still very cool to hear an early version of it, though! If only that other CD with "Cover It Up" (if the comment about it being an early version of The Idea of You with different lyrics is true, then I'm super intrigued by that one), "Good Day," "The End," and all of those demo versions of songs would surface online. I'm always hoping for a leak of songs like "The Life You Didn't Lead" (the lyrics of which really remind me of the lyrics and structure of "Zero-Sum"), "Message to No One," and the original pre-Year Zero version of "The Warning" that were hinted at on the With Teeth lyrics poster. I also think it would be super cool to someday hear "Just Do It," "The Beauty of the Drug," and "My Dead Friend" (unless the latter did indeed wind up getting renamed and became This Isn't the Place, as has been speculated). I hate to even bring up Tapeworm, but even though Trent wasn't satisfied with the recordings from those sessions, it would still be really cool to hear what they did end up recording for that project, too – especially Vacant. Maybe someday...

[paul_guyet]

Finally listening to this version of Only (by the time this thing was uploaded to Archive.org last year, the general consensus around here seemed to be that it was fake, so I never bothered to listen) and that alternate ending is really interesting. Maybe hearing the final version hundreds of times has made me biased, but I think the final version we all know is a far better and more fitting ending for the song. Still very cool to hear an early version of it, though! If only that other CD with "Cover It Up" (if the comment about it being an early version of The Idea of You with different lyrics is true, then I'm super intrigued by that one), "Good Day," "The End," and all of those demo versions of songs would surface online. I'm always hoping for a leak of songs like "The Life You Didn't Lead" (the lyrics of which really remind me of the lyrics and structure of "Zero-Sum"), "Message to No One," and the original pre-Year Zero version of "The Warning" that were hinted at on the With Teeth lyrics poster. I also think it would be super cool to someday hear "Just Do It," "The Beauty of the Drug," and "My Dead Friend" (unless the latter did indeed wind up getting renamed and became This Isn't the Place, as has been speculated). I hate to even bring up Tapeworm, but even though Trent wasn't satisfied with the recordings from those sessions, it would still be really cool to hear what they did end up recording for that project, too – especially Vacant. Maybe someday...

I thought "My Dead Friend" became "Beside You In Time"? Can't remember where I heard that or if my mind just took the subject matter of BYIT and transposed things.

[botley]

Thanks @Leviathant for getting into the weeds, I am glad you took the time and challenged us naysayers!

[TheBang]

Sorry, I still don't buy it. Everything is just a little too tidy. Every song is at least a little bit different, so they all appear to be works-in-progress? The included artwork, but it's the just the eBay image, but cropped to disguise its origin. Uploaded by a new, anonymous Archive.org account with no other contributions. No one ever takes credit, even a year and a half later. (The proper way to do it, of course, is to vague post on Reddit and say "Lolz, what should I do with this in-house disc full of unreleased demos? *shrug* ") While it's possible that someone could have received the package from Amoeba, ripped it, and uploaded it to Archive.org, based on when it was uploaded, they would have had to have basically picked it up in their mailbox and uploaded it that same night. Plus, the admission on Discord, where it was first posted, that it was fake? There's too much that doesn't add up for me.

[fillow]

Lolz, what should I do with this in-house disc full of unreleased demos? *shrug*

**Bad Witch Instrumentals has entered the chat**

[Leviathant]

Sorry, I still don't buy it. Everything is just a little too tidy. Every song is at least a little bit different, so they all appear to be works-in-progress? The included artwork, but it's the just the eBay image, but cropped to disguise its origin. Uploaded by a new, anonymous Archive.org account with no other contributions. No one ever takes credit, even a year and a half later. (The proper way to do it, of course, is to vague post on Reddit and say "Lolz, what should I do with this in-house disc full of unreleased demos? *shrug* ") While it's possible that someone could have received the package from Amoeba, ripped it, and uploaded it to Archive.org, based on when it was uploaded, they would have had to have basically picked it up in their mailbox and uploaded it that same night. Plus, the admission on Discord, where it was first posted, that it was fake? There's too much that doesn't add up for me.

Do you have any theories about how to create that version of Only without the effects on the vocals, and with the vocal take that doesn't exist anywhere else? Another thing I noted when I phase-canceled it was that there are little vocal tics in the recording that aren't in the released multitracks. Inhales, grunts, etc.

[azad_ninja]

I love this place. <3

[sonic_discord]

Sorry, I still don't buy it. Everything is just a little too tidy. Every song is at least a little bit different, so they all appear to be works-in-progress? The included artwork, but it's the just the eBay image, but cropped to disguise its origin. Uploaded by a new, anonymous Archive.org account with no other contributions. No one ever takes credit, even a year and a half later. (The proper way to do it, of course, is to vague post on Reddit and say "Lolz, what should I do with this in-house disc full of unreleased demos? *shrug* ") While it's possible that someone could have received the package from Amoeba, ripped it, and uploaded it to Archive.org, based on when it was uploaded, they would have had to have basically picked it up in their mailbox and uploaded it that same night. Plus, the admission on Discord, where it was first posted, that it was fake? There's too much that doesn't add up for me.

@Leviathant did say that Every Day Is Exactly the Same is literally the exact same track as the German promo CD. I don't find it that suspicious that every other track has minor differences from the final version if this was created when they were still working on the album. If Leviathant is right about it being difficult to fake the minor differences (especially vocal takes that are definitely TR's voice that don't appear anywhere else), what would be the point of doing so? Like what would anyone have to benefit from that? I guess the CD probably sold for a good amount on eBay, but would it really be worth the time and effort required to fake this thing? Rob said he did make CDs like this, complete with artwork printed on a home printer, so I'm inclined to believe it's probably legit and the songs were works in progress at the time.

[Erneuert]

Also little things like GS titled “Getting Smaller Every Day” — seems like it was a last minute creative choice for TR to shorten the title (maybe to make it look less like EDIETS?) or something like that. Not something someone would make up or “fake”.

[ekrekel]

.....While it's possible that someone could have received the package from Amoeba, ripped it, and uploaded it to Archive.org, based on when it was uploaded, they would have had to have basically picked it up in their mailbox and uploaded it that same night......

Think someone at Amoeba did it?

I love this place. <3

This 100%

...Inhales, grunts, etc.

Insert *coffee out nose gif

[botley]

Would be great to go back and cross-reference everything we've learned here in this thread with the supposed/rumoured/imagined stories of CD-Rs floating around various improbable locations in L.A. back on the old ETS board, way way back in late '04...

[Prettybrokenspiral]

I highly doubt some rando out there has the time and desire and the resources to troll the NIN fanbase by putting together a clever fan-made bootleg of a mysterious CD-R literally days after it sells on eBay, for the sheer amusement of watching people dissect it as authentic or not. Why can't we just be thankful someone was kind enough to share it with the world and enjoy the subtleties of these tracks instead of dissecting every goddamn release ad nauseum..? If I was the guy with that 2-CD set of WT demos and unreleased tracks, I wouldn't want to take the time to upload it either, if people were just going to dunk on my generosity as fake and insincere..

Ffs, I saw some dude bitching about the background echo effects on Trent's vocals on that Health collab the other week. Like, seriously? We have nothing else to focus on in our daily lives? I shudder to think..

[tricil]

Sorry, I still don't buy it. Everything is just a little too tidy. Every song is at least a little bit different, so they all appear to be works-in-progress? The included artwork, but it's the just the eBay image, but cropped to disguise its origin. Uploaded by a new, anonymous Archive.org account with no other contributions. No one ever takes credit, even a year and a half later. (The proper way to do it, of course, is to vague post on Reddit and say "Lolz, what should I do with this in-house disc full of unreleased demos? *shrug* ") While it's possible that someone could have received the package from Amoeba, ripped it, and uploaded it to Archive.org, based on when it was uploaded, they would have had to have basically picked it up in their mailbox and uploaded it that same night. Plus, the admission on Discord, where it was first posted, that it was fake? There's too much that doesn't add up for me.

If I recall correctly, the Discord chat was rather circular and thought it might be real until they heard the Every Day is Exactly the Same promo remix and the whole thing got written off as "entirely fake" based on that alone. I've seen Matt's work on investigating this and I'm back in the "ok it's probably real" camp.

I've got a theory of my own: there were *intentionally* Not The Actual Mixes. Think about it. You're the biggest band in the world in your genre and you burn a CD-R of forthcoming material. It's a miracle it took 15 years to it *to* hit the internet. This was designed to be leaked in a way, and each one is different than what came out. by design.

[azad_ninja]

I've got a theory of my own: there were *intentionally* Not The Actual Mixes. Think about it. You're the biggest band in the world in your genre and you burn a CD-R of forthcoming material. It's a miracle it took 15 years to it *to* hit the internet. This was designed to be leaked in a way, and each one is different than what came out. by design.

OR, hear me out, these were intentionally leaked by TR to build hype for DEVIATIONS 2_ (electric boogaloo)

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Maybe these are rough mixes. Comparing them it seems like all the tracks are TRs exact same vocal takes from the album (w the exception the latter part of 'Only')

I remember back in the day Mr Bungle rough mixes from their debut album leaked and it sounded similar. Exact same vocal takes. Some different effects/samples compared to the album version but not so much it made a huge difference

[TheBang]

I guess the CD probably sold for a good amount on eBay, but would it really be worth the time and effort required to fake this thing? Rob said he did make CDs like this, complete with artwork printed on a home printer, so I'm inclined to believe it's probably legit and the songs were works in progress at the time.

Also little things like GS titled “Getting Smaller Every Day” — seems like it was a last minute creative choice for TR to shorten the title (maybe to make it look less like EDIETS?) or something like that. Not something someone would make up or “fake”.

To be clear, I think both CD's are 100% legit. And I think Amoeba did sell and ship one to somebody. What I think is bullshit is that this Archive.org upload is ripped from that CD.

Think someone at Amoeba did it?

Uploaded a rip of the CD? No. Made a fake CD? No.

I highly doubt some rando out there has the time and desire and the resources to troll the NIN fanbase by putting together a clever fan-made bootleg of a mysterious CD-R literally days after it sells on eBay, for the sheer amusement of watching people dissect it as authentic or not.

Why not? Fans in the community have done far more elaborate things for any number of nefarious or benign purposes. Look no further than the new Hoaxes and Jokes page on ninwiki.
And they didn't have days, they had weeks to create it, from the beginning of the auction.

Why can't we just be thankful someone was kind enough to share it with the world and enjoy the subtleties of these tracks instead of dissecting every goddamn release ad nauseum..? If I was the guy with that 2-CD set of WT demos and unreleased tracks, I wouldn't want to take the time to upload it either, if people were just going to dunk on my generosity as fake and insincere..

If it were released in a way that wasn't completely vague, anonymous, and suspect, I wouldn't "dunk" on it. Like if there were a post on any of the NIN communities that said, "Hey guys, I just bought that CD, and here is a rip of it. And here is a photo of the CD." Everything about this upload is currently unverifiable.

If I recall correctly, the Discord chat was rather circular and thought it might be real until they heard the Every Day is Exactly the Same promo remix and the whole thing got written off as "entirely fake" based on that alone. I've seen Matt's work on investigating this and I'm back in the "ok it's probably real" camp.

No, you can see my post earlier in this thread, where I posted the section of the Discord discussion. The determination that it was fake was when the person who originally provided the link came back and said it was fan made.

[TheBang]

Do you have any theories about how to create that version of Only without the effects on the vocals, and with the vocal take that doesn't exist anywhere else? Another thing I noted when I phase-canceled it was that there are little vocal tics in the recording that aren't in the released multitracks. Inhales, grunts, etc.

I don't. I haven't analyzed the audio to the degree that you have, but I do take your analysis at face value, having not done the analysis myself and it perhaps being beyond my capability. But I'm also weighing that against the totality of all the circumstances surrounding this upload.

I will note that track 2 appears to possibly be MP3-sourced.

[Erneuert]

@piggy , have we made mention of this exclusive version of Only on ninwiki anywhere?

[Prettybrokenspiral]

Why not? Fans in the community have done far more elaborate things for any number of nefarious or benign purposes. Look no further than the new Hoaxes and Jokes page on ninwiki.
And they didn't have days, they had weeks to create it, from the beginning of the auction.

Wow. Tin foil hat much? I like to think with my head out of the clouds and believe that trolls out there don't care that much about getting one over on the Nails fanbase, but hey, you do you..

[Leviathant]

I don't. I haven't analyzed the audio to the degree that you have, but I do take your analysis at face value, having not done the analysis myself and it perhaps being beyond my capability. But I'm also weighing that against the totality of all the circumstances surrounding this upload.

I'll put some stuff up on Soundcloud this weekend!

I will note that track 2 appears to possibly be MP3-sourced.

That's one thing I hadn't checked was whether or not any of these had been compressed before.

[Leviathant]

Wow. Tin foil hat much? I like to think with my head out of the clouds and believe that trolls out there don't care that much about getting one over on the Nails fanbase, but hey, you do you..

Relax, PBS.

[gorast]

I think a degree of skepticism is entirely reasonable in this scenario, even with Levi's analysis, simply because we don't know for certain that these tracks came from that CD-R, or that the CD-R - that specific one sold on eBay - was a legit item, since it's not in the hands of anyone trustworthy in the community (to my knowledge). Having read the analysis and listened to the tracks again, I'm more inclined to believe that they're legit, but I could be talked in either direction because it seems like the evidence that is there doesn't definitively nail every track down as legit. But if Only is an unheard vocal take, and therefore legit, why dip that in with a bunch of bullshit? To get it to sell faster/at a higher price on eBay? I don't know. So if one track is legit, it makes me feel like all of them would be.

I just wish that someone here had snagged it, because then I'd feel more confident about it. Feels like there's one too many degrees of separation going on as it is.

[Erneuert]

It’s painful just knowing this is sitting in someone’s room somewhere begging to be ripped and shared (the other one with the demos).

[piggy]

@piggy , have we made mention of this exclusive version of Only on ninwiki anywhere?

Not yet. Not quite sure how to handle that one, since we're still kinda speculating on this whole matter.

[Erneuert]

Not yet. Not quite sure how to handle that one, since we're still kinda speculating on this whole matter.

Should this whole thing have its own page? Or just have it talked about on the halo 19 page?

Actually, where are we currently mentioning Cover It Up, Good Day and The End?

I’m reminded of TR’s quote about W_T changing, the packaging changing, how everything will make sense and we’ll “get it” once we read that extensive essay by him that never materialised.

How about finally putting out a definitive edition of With Teeth with that essay, and going into detail about the transition from Bleedthrough to WT, what song did in fact eventually become My Dead Friend, show us the scrapped EDIETS video and tell us the meaning behind The Life You Didn’t Lead, Message To No One, and tell us in detail about the nebulous form of “The Warning” and its original lyrics?



…I can dream. So many unanswered questions from this era. I need that itch scratched, @teitan .

[piggy]

Should this whole thing have its own page? Or just have it talked about on the halo 19 page?

Actually, where are we currently mentioning Cover It Up, Good Day and The End?

I don't think it needs its own page, but I'm considering expanding the section on the WT page where I've placed this info. That's where "Cover It Up", "Good Day" and "The End" are mentioned.

[Erneuert]

I don't think it needs its own page, but I'm considering expanding the section on the WT page where I've placed this info. That's where "Cover It Up", "Good Day" and "The End" are mentioned.

Cool. Let’s keep bumping this thread so TR sees it, and also remind him people were selling instrumental versions of NTAE, AV and BW on eBay.

The way I see it is, we were hella persistent with the instrumental version of Everything and eventually got it, so it’s just a matter of time. TR, do you want that matter of time to be through crappy fan bootlegging, or nice and officially?

[TheBang]

OK, I've taken another long look at everything surrounding this upload. I've looked at a lot of waveforms and played with phase cancellation as suggested by Leviathant. The time stretching on the tracks made it difficult to do comparisons.

But while listening to Cages, I thought to myself, why is this track in mono? Is it really entirely mono? So, I split the channels, phase inverted one, and combined them, and yes it is truly mono all the way through except for the first 13 seconds. That's stereo. So it's stereo for 13 seconds and then a hard cut to mono. Why? Well, those 13 seconds are an ambient noise field recording of what sounds like a street that are heard at the beginning of RWIB (Instrumental). But here's the thing. That ambient noise track continues as the synth and piano start the song, and it continues for almost a minute. But it's all in mono now like the rest of the song. If Cages were truly from Trent, why would that field recording track start off in stereo and abruptly change to mono, corresponding with the rest of the song coming in? It wouldn't. That doesn't make any sense. In both the album version and the instrumental version, that field recording is stereo for the entire minute or so that it is present.

What does makes sense is that someone took the first 13 seconds from the Instrumental and prepended it to the album version. But why is the album portion all in mono? Well, to make it sound a little different, perhaps, but also, it clicked when Leviathant said he compared it with one channel to get rid of the piano. That piano at the end is only in the left channel. So is the song just the right channel only? Yeah, that's exactly what this guy did.

In fact, knowing this, I was able to make my own "Cages" in about a minute. I simply loaded up the album version of RWIB. Deleted the left channel and cloned the right channel into the left channel. I then copied the first 13 seconds of the instrumental and pasted it to the front of the track. Applied a small fade-in to the very beginning and then invert the phase. It sounds exactly like this bullshit Cages. You can download it here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/clu7n...ages.flac/file

My stereo to mono transition at 13 seconds is a tiny bit rougher, because I didn't even spend any time trying to line it up correctly, just kind of eyeballed it while zoomed out a bit. If I cut at the exact correct place, it might've sounded better, and the other guy may have applied a slight cross-fade to soften it too, I don't know.

Anyway, this is not something that Trent would have ever created and released, even on an internal label promo or demo. Why would he do something like this? It makes no sense. It only makes sense if it was done by someone trying to make a fake release to fool the community.