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Thread: With Teeth: Tentative Sequence (UPDATE: fake upload)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sequenteon View Post
    Also, why would a tentative tracklist sent a label include so few tracks?
    Per Rob's tweet, this was not just for the record label. They produced these for other purposes, including sending them to potential collaborators. And press, apparently:
    https://www.theninhotline.com/archiv...ticle.php?id=2

    So the existence of this promo was known previously, but not the appearance or contents. The fact that Rob recognized the promos, and that the one-disc conforms to previously known info indicates to me that they are probably genuine. It's just this download which is bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sequenteon View Post
    Does anyone here have any links to posts on facebook where this CD was originally mentioned (it was allegedly first mentioned by someone on the facebook group Nine Inch Nails Collecting and Trading...but I looked at every post on that group and couldn't find it) or any posts on ETS about this disc?
    Here's the previous discussion about it on ETS: https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/showthread.php?p=480625

  2. #32
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    that archive.org upload is indeed fake. confirmed by folks in the nin discord

  3. #33
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    Relevant discussion in Discord about the upload:

    "Hey guys its not real! The guy who send it to me had said that is was fake... so i quickly removed it from reddit"
    "The version of everyday is excatly the same is on remix.nin.com"
    "The rest of it is fan made he said! I am so sorry guys"

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    Hey, ETS. I've reached out to the person who has the November 2004 discs. Haven't heard back. From what I've been told though, it sounds like the person shared images of the discs and art to validate the OTHER tentative tracklist disc that was listed on Ebay as potentially authentic. It appears they were only posting to be helpful in that discussion and never had any intention of sharing or selling their longer set with the unreleased demos. If that's the case, it's unlikely we'll ever hear their contents. I hope in the future the unreleased demos may be paired with a re-release of With Teeth. Fingers crossed.
    Last edited by Sequenteon; 03-28-2020 at 09:28 PM.

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    I was just about to post this in the Random Questions thread, but actually felt it more appropriate here.

    Remember back in 2005 when the With Teeth track listing was first posted on nin.com, it only had 12 tracks? Then shortly after... maybe a few hours, “Love Is Not Enough” was added to it.

    I wonder if this was a last-minute decision and there were actually other tracks available to pick from, and this just happened to be one of them? Maybe someone can ask Rob on Twitter why LINE was initially revoked? So many questions arise from this era, I swear...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sequenteon View Post
    Hey, ETS. I've reached out to the person who has the November 2004 discs. Haven't heard back. From what I've been told though, it sounds like the person shared images of the discs and art to validate the OTHER tentative tracklist disc that was listed on Ebay as potentially authentic. It appears they were only posting to be helpful in that discussion and never had any intention of sharing or selling their longer set with the unreleased demos. If that's the case, it's unlikely we'll ever hear their contents. I hope in the future the unreleased demos may be paired with a re-release of With Teeth. Fingers crossed.
    I always got the impression that a With Teeth Deviations would have a ton of potential material. Please release this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckaroo View Post
    I always got the impression that a With Teeth Deviations would have a ton of potential material. Please release this!
    They'll be in instrumental form though. One of these days we'll get to hear the complete unreleased songs. Was It Worth It? from The Fragile is at the top of my list.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senateguard33 View Post
    They'll be in instrumental form though. One of these days we'll get to hear the complete unreleased songs. Was It Worth It? from The Fragile is at the top of my list.
    100% agree. That track was one of those didn't know I needed it until I heard it... really fills a gap for me by adding a more "pop-ish" track to the album. Great companion track to the Big Comedown.

    I don't think Trent realizes how much joy releasing something like that would bring to the community.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    UPDATE: this file upload to archive.org is faked and not from the actual CD (which is probably real). See discussion further down the thread

    --------------------------------------


    So, I don't think I missed a discussion about this, but if so, someone please point me towards it.

    That "With Teeth (Tentative Sequence 12.23.04)" internal record label advance CD was posted two months ago, I guess:
    https://archive.org/details/withteet...quence12.23.04

    No one noticed? 2007 NIN ARG fans are ashamed to be in the same fandom as you!

    Anyway, it seems to check out. The auction closed on 1/24. If it was mailed by Amoeba on 1/25, that means the auction winner probably received it by 1/28, the same date it was uploaded to archive.org. I thought it might be a fake upload, because the cover art uploaded to archive.org is just a cropped version of the eBay cover image. But as we delve into the audio content below, we see it must be genuine.

    1. Every Day is Exactly the Same 3:51 - It appears to be identical to "Every Day is Exactly the Same (Edit)" from a promo CD, rather than the album version.

    2. Getting Smaller Every Day 3:39 - It appears to be the same as the album version, except without segues at the beginning and end of the track.

    3. Only 4:45 - This is what cemented for me that this was genuine. Starting at 4:05, it has a different vocal ending, never heard before AFAIK (these lyrics were on the lyrics poster). Vocal effects missing at 2:55

    4. The Hand That Feeds 3:37 - Different intro before the vocals come in.

    5. Cages 5:01 - This one seems farthest from the album version in terms of mixing and mastering. It has the full unsegued intro (as previously heard on the Instrumental version). The falsetto outro (starting at 4:23) is missing the piano, and is slightly different at the very end (because it was modified when the piano was added).

    I haven't done a full A-B comparison on all the tracks, so there may be additional subtle differences (like the missing vocal effect on Only) that I missed. Anyone else find any differences?
    I also noticed that during towards the end of The Hands That Feeds, there is just drums and vocals on one of the refrains.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulgaren View Post
    that archive.org upload is indeed fake. confirmed by folks in the nin discord
    Does someone in the discord group have ties to the NIN camp? What criteria determined that it is fake? Not saying that it's real, but would like some more insight into the topic.

  11. #41
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    "The guy who send it to me had said that is was fake"

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulgaren View Post
    "The guy who send it to me had said that is was fake"
    Therefore, it must be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckaroo View Post
    100% agree. That track was one of those didn't know I needed it until I heard it... really fills a gap for me by adding a more "pop-ish" track to the album. Great companion track to the Big Comedown.

    I don't think Trent realizes how much joy releasing something like that would bring to the community.
    Oh Trent knows.

    There is a LOT of money to be made when it comes to the fragile, it's why a deluxe edition was never released and we got a definitive edition AND the deviations instead. There's probably another 2 $80 versions left in the pipeline before we get that $250 "complete" version in 5 years.
    Last edited by tony.parente; 04-01-2020 at 10:11 AM.

  14. #44
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    not stopping you from believing they are real \_(ツ)_/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulgaren View Post
    not stopping you from believing they are real \_(ツ)_/
    I'm not convinced either way. I just want some more insight into the matter, than "just some guy said they were fake"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Senateguard33 View Post
    I'm not convinced either way. I just want some more insight into the matter, than "just some guy said they were fake"
    I don't think any official source confirmed they were fake. It was more just a matter of evidence and deduction. The version of EDIETS is a remix that falls far out of the realm of production of the rest of the album and seems to have been done and released after With Teeth's release. Elements of RWIB seem to have been taken from the 5.1 mixes of the album and put in the track to suggest an "unfinishedness." The lyrics at the end of Only have been heard in the officially released multi-tracks. There is nothing in this group of songs that can't be found in NIN material from around the era that was completed and configured to serve a specific purpose...whether that be ambiance in a 5.1 mix, outtake in a multi-track, or interesting remix.

    Just based on what we're seeing, all signs point towards someone NIN savvy enough putting together a fake tentative track-list because they knew they could make some quick cash. They knew if they made it just different enough by altering mixes and including some obscure material they'd probably get away with it.

    It just doesn't make sense this would be real.
    Last edited by Sequenteon; 04-02-2020 at 01:19 PM.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senateguard33 View Post
    I'm not convinced either way. I just want some more insight into the matter, than "just some guy said they were fake"
    The version of "Only" in this "Tentative Sequence" is taken straight from the multitracks distributed by TR/NIN. The chorus vocals are late in this track.

    I distinctly remember there being a slight delay in the "There is no fucking you" vocals in the multitracks (Sony Acid).
    Last edited by shagg_187; 04-02-2020 at 05:13 PM.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sequenteon View Post
    Just based on what we're seeing, all signs point towards someone NIN savvy enough putting together a fake tentative track-list because they knew they could make some quick cash. They knew if they made it just different enough by altering mixes and including some obscure material they'd probably get away with it.
    To be clear, there's no evidence that the archive.org upload is in any way sourced from the CD-r promo. That upload was most likely created by someone to pretend to be from that CD, but as discussed in this thread, is demonstrably fake.

    Based on the available evidence, however, I believe both CD's are probably genuine. Just no one has heard what is on them besides the owners, because they haven't shared.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sequenteon View Post
    I don't think any official source confirmed they were fake. It was more just a matter of evidence and deduction. The version of EDIETS is a remix that falls far out of the realm of production of the rest of the album and seems to have been done and released after With Teeth's release. Elements of RWIB seem to have been taken from the 5.1 mixes of the album and put in the track to suggest an "unfinishedness." The lyrics at the end of Only have been heard in the officially released multi-tracks. There is nothing in this group of songs that can't be found in NIN material from around the era that was completed and configured to serve a specific purpose...whether that be ambiance in a 5.1 mix, outtake in a multi-track, or interesting remix.

    Just based on what we're seeing, all signs point towards someone NIN savvy enough putting together a fake tentative track-list because they knew they could make some quick cash. They knew if they made it just different enough by altering mixes and including some obscure material they'd probably get away with it.

    It just doesn't make sense this would be real.

    Thanks, this is the kind of the response I was looking for. I remember the initial auction, it was sold by a well known record store's ebay page (starting at .01 cents like the rest of their CDs) Which means that whoever possessed the CD originally sold it to them for probably pennies.

    Even if it is a bootleg, it just seems odd that just one copy came through their inventory, it's just really random.

    There are tons of fake NIN promo CDs out there, and they are generally easy to spot. They are typically on ebay and the same seller will repost the same item for outrages prices until they get reported. Oddly enough, in my near 30 years of collecting, I've only seen this particular CD once.

    There's been talk that the actual CD is real..but the archive.org copy isn't. It's just odd that someone would go through all that trouble of putting it together around the time of the eBay sale, for no personal or financial gain whatsoever. Just for the sake of driving ETS mad and bonkers? It could happen, but I'm skeptical about it.

    The EIETS promo mix is well known. Easy, throw it in. Multitracks for THTF and Only have been around for ages. I can buy into that. But creating a version of RWIB using just a 5.1 mix? I dunno. There's too much audio information in each channel and nothing is really isolated. It would sound muddy and odd in parts. This sounds like a pro mix, so that must have been a pain in the ass to create. Even the unadultered intro and outro of Getting Smaller would be hard to do just based off 5.1 channels. The other curiosity is THTF is lower in volume and seems to have more distortion than the other tracks...as if it was intentionally done to discourage premature airplay, since it's the obvious single out of the bunch.

    We can lean towards it "probably" being a fake, but I don't think we can 100% write it off either. It shall remain a mystery until we can get word from official channels, which may never happen.
    Last edited by Senateguard33; 04-03-2020 at 12:54 PM.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senateguard33 View Post
    There's been talk that the actual CD is real..but the archive.org copy isn't. It's just odd that someone would go through all that trouble of putting it together around the time of the eBay sale, for no personal or financial gain whatsoever. Just for the sake of driving ETS mad and bonkers? It could happen, but I'm skeptical about it.
    Yeah who would spend their own time to make something pseudo-official just to drive ETS mad and bonkers?

    (disclaimer: I don't know who put the fake together on archive.org, but I'm 100% confident that it's a fake)

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Yeah who would spend their own time to make something pseudo-official just to drive ETS mad and bonkers?

    (disclaimer: I don't know who put the fake together on archive.org, but I'm 100% confident that it's a fake)
    Thanks for chiming in. That's a very good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Senateguard33 View Post
    The EIETS promo mix is well known. Easy, throw it in. Multitracks for THTF and Only have been around for ages. I can buy into that. But creating a version of RWIB using just a 5.1 mix? I dunno. There's too much audio information in each channel and nothing is really isolated. It would sound muddy and odd in parts. This sounds like a pro mix, so that must have been a pain in the ass to create. Even the unadultered intro and outro of Getting Smaller would be hard to do just based off 5.1 channels.
    Pro instrumental mixes with clean intro/outros were released on Apple Music in the official NIN Connect playlists. These versions appear to use those, and the standard mixes during the vocal parts. Tricky but not impossible for a fan to assemble, and the multi-track timing discrepancy in "Only" is also a dead giveaway that a fan made this version by simply pushing all the faders up in that session... I expect THTF is the same.
    Last edited by botley; 04-03-2020 at 03:44 PM.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony.parente View Post
    Oh Trent knows.

    There is a LOT of money to be made when it comes to the fragile, it's why a deluxe edition was never released and we got a definitive edition AND the deviations instead. There's probably another 2 $80 versions left in the pipeline before we get that $250 "complete" version in 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    Nice gif, there's an Atticus one to do, too

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    With Teeth: Tentative Sequence (UPDATE: fake upload)

    Quote Originally Posted by StockAvuryah View Post
    Nice gif, there's an Atticus one to do, too
    Be funnier if it was:

    Atticus Ross has left.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    Hahahaha!

    He knows we know.

    On May 5, 2005, in the Access section of nin.com, Reznor simply replied with "?" in response to the following fan question: "In the .pdf file for the lyrics to the With Teeth album, there are [sic] appears to be songs listed with lyrics that do not appear on the Dual Disc CD/DVD album. Those songs include "Home," "Message To No One" and "The Life You Didn't Lead". Will these songs be released ever?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erneuert View Post
    Hahahaha!

    He knows we know.

    On May 5, 2005, in the Access section of nin.com, Reznor simply replied with "?" in response to the following fan question: "In the .pdf file for the lyrics to the With Teeth album, there are [sic] appears to be songs listed with lyrics that do not appear on the Dual Disc CD/DVD album. Those songs include "Home," "Message To No One" and "The Life You Didn't Lead". Will these songs be released ever?"

    Has anyone here ever heard the songs
    "Message To No One" and "The Life You Didn't Lead" before? This is the first time I've even heard about them. 🤔😃

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master View Post
    Has anyone here ever heard the songs
    "Message To No One" and "The Life You Didn't Lead" before? This is the first time I've even heard about them. 🤔😃
    They likely dont exist as songs:

    http://www.nin.wiki/With_Teeth_(halo)#Outtakes

    More just additional lyrical ideas, akin to many other songs from the album containing additional unsung lyrics on the lyric poster.

    With the exception of The Collector. Its additional lyrics have been sung live before.

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