The Batman

[Wretchedest]

** Joel Schumacher joined the chat **

I mean, hey, that is kind of what I'm getting at. I know it's unpopular but I thi k there a lot Schumacher got right, from a certain point of view. Those movies are fun and weird.


This movie is super weird too and that was part of what elevated it.

[M1ke]

Maybe it's just me, but I found that quite unsettling.

I was really enjoying watching Batman being a detective on screen again, but about half-way through, I could see where it was going, with the riddler. And that made the last half horrifying....knowing where this was eventually going to end up, but just watching it all unfold...

Spoiler: The riddler as an incel was a fucking fantastic idea. They didn't make it explicit, but it was (at least to me) more than obvious once we saw how he got his followers riled up.

[burnmotherfucker!]

I think asking him to literally wear an identifying label is to ridiculously high a threshold. I don't think it's poorly thought out and I don't think it requires much thinking.

And no I think those other movies are still very much in the edgy vein I'm thinking more along the lines of the 60s Batman.

I don't need a label either, that was hyperbole. And fair enough but I've heard the argument before and it's never made any sense whatsoever to me. So what makes you think so?

If it's just because he is a vigilante then wouldn't that argument have to apply to all of these crime fighting heroes? If its because he sometimes works with police then are you implying that liberals always think police are bad? Because that's obviously not the case either, no sane liberal would want to live in a society without police. And that's not to say police can't get out of hand because of course they can.

And if its about money then that argument makes even less sense. It's important to remember that his wealth is inherited and he gives it back to the city. It's not like he's attending stock meetings and investing it all in Koch companies.

Is it because he wants to stop crime? Liberals should want that too, especially since its generally murder that he's trying to prevent. So what am I missing since it doesn't require much thinking? And again I haven't seen the new film so I can't comment on that one yet.

If those movies I mentioned are edgy to you then fair enough, to each their own. We probably just have different taste, and that's ok.

[Wretchedest]

I don't need a label either, that was hyperbole. And fair enough but I've heard the argument before and it's never made any sense whatsoever to me. So what makes you think so?

If it's just because he is a vigilante then wouldn't that argument have to apply to all of these crime fighting heroes? If its because he sometimes works with police then are you implying that liberals always think police are bad? Because that's obviously not the case either, no sane liberal would want to live in a society without police. And that's not to say police can't get out of hand because of course they can.

And if its about money then that argument makes even less sense. It's important to remember that his wealth is inherited and he gives it back to the city. It's not like he's attending stock meetings and investing it all in Koch companies.

Is it because he wants to stop crime? Liberals should want that too, especially since its generally murder that he's trying to prevent. So what am I missing since it doesn't require much thinking? And again I haven't seen the new film so I can't comment on that one yet.

If those movies I mentioned are edgy to you then fair enough, to each their own. We probably just have different taste, and that's ok.

I like edgy movies just fine, I just miss the other characterizations, and we've been in edgy mode for a long time.

In general, yes, super heroes as a concept have a right wing bend, the only major exception being the X-Men.

Really, it's kind of all of the above at the same time. The idea that law enforcement is better when its privatized is deeply right wing. The idea that crime and especially petty crime can be solved by violence is very, very right wing. It's true that Bruce Wayne is sometimes depicted as engaged in philanthropy, but that philanthropy is never shown to be effective and never emphasized because of the genre. Philanthropy as a solution to wealth disparity is still pretty right wing as well, because it's still centered around privatization rather than social programs. More in Batman than in most other super hero stories, Batman is necessary because social services have failed. It's true that Batman often depicts police as corrupt, but also depicts criminality as sort of a hobby rather than a product of poverty and desperation.

As much as I loved this movie I thought one place where it falls short is that cat woman is never effective
She becomes a damsel in distress at least twice. Batman is always better than her for basically no other reason that that he is wealthy. In this movie, also they are so afraid to just let her steal from rich people without justifying it in some moral way.


And as much I hate conservatism with absolutely every fiber of my being I still love superhero movies and I still can watch just about any Batman movie any time. I'd rather acknowledge his shitty philosophical underpinnings than just pretend I can't see them to comfort my misgivings.

[M1ke]

I've taken time to really digest the movie, because it left me feeling really unsettled and bothered in some places.

I loved the first half. I was really enjoying seeing Batman in detective mode, and the slower pacing worked really well.

And maybe it's me, but there's a few things that I felt were heavily implied but not explicitly stated, that went to places that I felt were too dark to be the subject of comic book movie.

Spoiler: When the catwoman is explaining that her mother worked in the club, and that she took her with her at 7 years old, it kind of implied to me that she was being trafficked as a child. It was never explicitly stated, but it seemed to be implied to me, and that was too far for a comic book movie to go, I think.

And at the end, when the riddler was talking to his "fans" online, it was pretty clear he was talking to incels/white supremacists/militant Q supporters". This is also something that concerns me greatly in real life, and I felt it was too dark of a place to go for a superhero movie.

By the end, I know batman was supposed to be rising as a symbol of hope, but I didn't see it that way. I saw a broken man, continuing on to fight against atrocities that he himself has unintentionally inspired.

And I can't help but expect that any potential sequels are just going to get darker, as batman becomes more and more broken.

I think if there's a sequel, that I won't go see it. The movie was really well made, the acting was good, the plot was interesting, I'm not calling it a bad movie by any means, it wasn't a bad movie.

But this isn't what I want to watch, and I'll pass on any sequels.

[poinoup]

Twas damn, damn fun, but three hours is...oof. I need to rewatch er, but there feels like 15-20 could be cut out. Plus, do we need more Nirvana overexposure, haha.

Spoiler: How awesome was the car chase? The ramp just happens to come loose to allow a jump... that's comic books right there. Actually, that whole chase is the best Batman chase in the solo movies.

[burnmotherfucker!]

I like edgy movies just fine, I just miss the other characterizations, and we've been in edgy mode for a long time.

In general, yes, super heroes as a concept have a right wing bend, the only major exception being the X-Men.

Really, it's kind of all of the above at the same time. The idea that law enforcement is better when its privatized is deeply right wing. The idea that crime and especially petty crime can be solved by violence is very, very right wing. It's true that Bruce Wayne is sometimes depicted as engaged in philanthropy, but that philanthropy is never shown to be effective and never emphasized because of the genre. Philanthropy as a solution to wealth disparity is still pretty right wing as well, because it's still centered around privatization rather than social programs. More in Batman than in most other super hero stories, Batman is necessary because social services have failed. It's true that Batman often depicts police as corrupt, but also depicts criminality as sort of a hobby rather than a product of poverty and desperation.

As much as I loved this movie I thought one place where it falls short is that cat woman is never effective
She becomes a damsel in distress at least twice. Batman is always better than her for basically no other reason that that he is wealthy. In this movie, also they are so afraid to just let her steal from rich people without justifying it in some moral way.


And as much I hate conservatism with absolutely every fiber of my being I still love superhero movies and I still can watch just about any Batman movie any time. I'd rather acknowledge his shitty philosophical underpinnings than just pretend I can't see them to comfort my misgivings.

Well thanks for explaining it from your point of view. But I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. The idea that somehow all these comic characters are somehow republican archetypes I just fundamentally disagree with personally.

Batman's campaign isn't to privatize law enforcement lol. In fact he essentially acts as a bounty hunter for super villains that police are incapable of catching. That's more fantasy storytelling than it is political commentary. And once apprehended, he drops them off with the local PD and leaves it to the public court system specifically because he knows if he were to become the judge he would be crossing a line. He does this despite the failure of his city's public social programs. The social programs fail time and time again and yet he never loses faith in them. It's also important to keep in mind that his intentions have exactly 0 to do with politics whatsoever. He is mentally ill himself really, and he is trying to undo his own pain through the idea that he can spare others pain. That's pathos, not politics. There's also not too many stories where he doesn't come to at least understand the villains and empathize with their humanity. Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, Two Face, Catwoman etc. almost always are depicted as a product of unfortunate circumstance. But that doesn't mean they get a pass for killing people. And there's nothing anti-liberal in that view to me.

For Catwoman to steal from someone without her own internal moral justification would fly in the face of the best depictions of her character. She's a grey character not a straight villain. But again, I haven't seen the newest film to know exactly what you're referring to there. But from what you say it sounds like they wrote her true to form.

I'm not going to tell you to stop looking for politics in batman if you enjoy looking at it that way but I think you are reading things into an 80 year old character that may be coming from you moreso than the stories. I'm also not trying to argue that batman is some super woke liberal bro. My point is that his motivations are purely personal. He's making choices in real time, not following some political narrative already laid out for him.

And for the record I can have fun with a silly comic film as well, they just don't tend to be my preference and I think they are lazy and easy. I'd much rather an abstract character study that is at least trying to do the hard thing and take itself seriously, even if that endeavor fails and the movie isn't that good.

[Wretchedest]

Well thanks for explaining it from your point of view. But I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. The idea that somehow all these comic characters are somehow republican archetypes I just fundamentally disagree with personally.

Batman's campaign isn't to privatize law enforcement lol. In fact he essentially acts as a bounty hunter for super villains that police are incapable of catching. That's more fantasy storytelling than it is political commentary. And once apprehended, he drops them off with the local PD and leaves it to the public court system specifically because he knows if he were to become the judge he would be crossing a line. He does this despite the failure of his city's public social programs. The social programs fail time and time again and yet he never loses faith in them. It's also important to keep in mind that his intentions have exactly 0 to do with politics whatsoever. He is mentally ill himself really, and he is trying to undo his own pain through the idea that he can spare others pain. That's pathos, not politics. There's also not too many stories where he doesn't come to at least understand the villains and empathize with their humanity. Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, Two Face, Catwoman etc. almost always are depicted as a product of unfortunate circumstance. But that doesn't mean they get a pass for killing people. And there's nothing anti-liberal in that view to me.

For Catwoman to steal from someone without her own internal moral justification would fly in the face of the best depictions of her character. She's a grey character not a straight villain. But again, I haven't seen the newest film to know exactly what you're referring to there. But from what you say it sounds like they wrote her true to form.

I'm not going to tell you to stop looking for politics in batman if you enjoy looking at it that way but I think you are reading things into an 80 year old character that may be coming from you moreso than the stories. I'm also not trying to argue that batman is some super woke liberal bro. My point is that his motivations are purely personal. He's making choices in real time, not following some political narrative already laid out for him.

And for the record I can have fun with a silly comic film as well, they just don't tend to be my preference and I think they are lazy and easy. I'd much rather an abstract character study that is at least trying to do the hard thing and take itself seriously, even if that endeavor fails and the movie isn't that good.

Bounty hunting and vigilantism are both forms of privatized law enforcement. I'm not making the claim that the character Baan is personally in favor of this, although in the comics at one point I believe he did set up some kind of company. I'm saying that by portraying him as effective and badass and glamorous, Batman comics philosophically promote the idea of privatized law enforcement among other things. Nothing is apolitical. Everything takes a side whether it's authors intend or not. Stories require a hero and a villain, and by making those designations and choosing means and motivations authors make philosophical statements. The broader conservative lean of superhero stories, but especially Baan, is a widely understood fact. The Dark Knight particularly is often viewed as a defense of bush era foreign policy.


And look at who a lot of these villains are! An environmental activist, a man desperate to find healthcare for his wife, the Riddler in this until the third act, nearly as much a hero as Batman, in exposing government corruption, nevermind the series broader issues in depicting mental health

[burnmotherfucker!]

Nothing is apolitical.

My cat begs to differ

[bobbie solo]

saw this Monday at the new Warner Media HQ at Hudson Yards. Was a pretty snazzy screening. Phones off & they had infrared cameras on us. They weren't playing.

Beautiful stadium theatre with full 7.1 sound. The soundtrack and constant rain really engulfed you.

I really liked it, although I wasn't sure at the time. But I kept coming back to it all week in my mind, and I kept coming back to what I liked. It wasn't perfect by any stretch, but overall i really liked what Reeves set out to do. I'll put out some bullets:

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

















Positives:

- Great performances from Pattinson, Farrell, Dano and Wright. It was nice having a Lt. Gordon here and not a commissioner (yet). Dano was fantastic and scary, but that is not the Riddler. That was some Joker-fied/incel version of the Riddler. It was a good villain turn for sure, but that isn't the Riddler, to be clear. Kravitz was decent as Catwoman. I think my issues are more with how she was written here, plus Zoe is sooooo tiny it was hard to believe her in any of the action scenes ("she cant hurt any of these people really") or when she saved Bruce toward the end on the scaffolding ("this tiny little thing isn't lifting up a fully suited Batman"). But whatever...Hollywood!

- Gotham is portrayed really well & def is its own character in a way. Looked like they shot in Chicago & NYC at least. The movie is shot really well, the mood they are trying to give off comes through well, and I echo the positive sentiments on the soundtrack. Something In The Way needle drop was a bit rough early in the film, but worked better for me the second time around near the end.

- loved the high tech optics Bruce used/gave to Selina to use.

- man, the Iceberg Lounge has certainly gotten a makeover!

- opening fight scene on the subway platform set quite the tone.

- Batmobile is an absolute monster, and yes I agree that chase scene was bananas. It was DEAFENING in my theater.

- when that one character's last name was Eliot, that made me think maybe we'd better

- Close to a horror movie at times. I've read plenty of Batman stories that dabbled in horror through the years so this worked for me. Shades of Seven, Saw & those Ashley Judd/Morgan Freeman 90's flicks.

-Pattinson walked the line well of doing the Bale Batman voice, but scaling it down a bit so it's easier on the audience.

- you can see the comic book, video game & previous film bones here and there. Elements of Year One/Year Two, Long Halloween, vaaaaaaguely Court of Owls, the Arkham City game & small stuff here & there from the earlier movies are here and I enjoyed it.

- I loved the subtle Penguin waddling when hes all tied up & trying to run after Batman & Gordon when theyre leaving him.

- does the ending potentially lead us into a No Man's Land style story for the sequel? if so, sign me up!

NEGATIVES

- DO NOT STAY FOR THE CUT SCENE IT IS NOT WORTH IT! It is simply a web address to go to when you get home. Just google it and save yourself the extra 5 minutes because...

- this movie is LONG. Too long! I didn't mind it b/c I was invested, but we could have cut a few things and not lost the essence of the film.

- it is also VERY slow at times. It really takes its time with the detective work. Between this pace, the length & the general miserable nature of it, I really wonder how the general public are going to receive this film. This is not for kids. it's for asshhole teenagers & college kids that are going to talk and be on their phones the whole time. It drops you right into a dark dark world. There's not THAT much action. I could see word of mouth hurting this amongst dumb people, which is alot of people. Plus, like I said, DC has known for a while kids aren't going to be into this so a big chunk of that demo is prolly out here too.

- while I agree i did not need another flashback to his parents getting killed, I feel like this almost would have benefitted from a 20-30 intro episode or something introducing us to this world. And considering the length of the film, I almost feel like it could have worked better as a 3 episode mini-series event on HBOMax. I know that never would have happened, but some "Gotham Central" style introduction to the lay of the land might have helped flesh things out about Gotham, the police force, how Batman is known and perceived, etc.

- Yes we get alot of detective work, but the big reveals for the overarching plot Riddler has hatched were a big letdown for me. I thought we've get a twist or something that we couldn't have seen coming. Instead we get an out of left field plot to blow up the seawalls around the city...seawalls we havent even heard about until just then and there.

- Riddler's motivation for all this seemed a bit silly too.

- Had a bit of a hard time following the plotline of Thomas Wayne & how/why he got involved with Falcone.

- I thought the final act in the arena was kinda clunky & left me wanting a cleaner, more satisfying setpiece than we got.

- Too many direct bullets to Batman's costume to be believed. Less is more if we're to believe he was not hurt by them. That machine guns sequence in part. bothered me, as well as the sniper bullets that hit him too w/basically no reaction.

- and that adrenaline shot to the leg or whatever was kind of weird & out of place too.

[GulDukat]

Saw the movie last night. It was very good, maybe not a classic, 5/5, but it was still very good. I had no issue with the time/pacing, as I don't think any time was wasted.

Batman Returns is still my favorite, but The Batman would probably be in a top 3 favorite films in the franchise.

[imail724]

I loved this movie so much and can't stop thinking about it. I know it's supposed to be on HBO Max next month, but I don't know if I can wait that long. Might have to go back to the theater to watch it again before then.

[Pillfred]

Like with good pizza this may be my current favorite. Though I love all the others as well.

[Rdm]

I literally hated every minute of this movie. I’m no professional critic, and I tend to lean to be pretty fair but fuck I wanted to walk out after 2 hours, THEN I HAD TO SIT THROUH ANOTHER HOUR… FUCK THIS MOVIE. Don’t want to give anymore of my time thinking about a good response on why I hated it I just want to never think about it again. I can’t fathom people saying this is a top 3 Batman movie.

[voidnz]

I literally hated every minute of this movie. I’m no professional critic, and I tend to lean to be pretty fair but fuck I wanted to walk out after 2 hours, THEN I HAD TO SIT THROUH ANOTHER HOUR… FUCK THIS MOVIE. Don’t want to give anymore of my time thinking about a good response on why I hated it I just want to never think about it again. I can’t fathom people saying this is a top 3 Batman movie.

Just curious, are you more a marvel fan? Those movies have less complex themes and plots and a lot more explosions. May be more down your alley if not already

[Rdm]

Just curious, are you more a marvel fan? Those movies have less complex themes and plots and a lot more explosions. May be more down your alley if not already

Lol so you’re calling me stupid because I didn’t like the movie you did ? However my post was harsh about the movie but that’s how I honestly feel about it. I appreciate Batman and own most the popular graphic novels and read and collected Batman comics as a kid- still own the knight fall series from the 90’s. I also collect Batman art from mondo. We can have different opinions without calling people dumb. I also have a subscription to the marvel app and pay monthly and love the shit out of marvel too. Sorry that was probably unnecessary = /

[dlb]

It's a good movie, but way too long and I had some major gripes with it. I found the acting to be horrible for the most part and Robert Pattinson just doesn't quite fit the role, although he definitely had his moments. But for him not really fitting the Bat-costume they certainly tried to elevate him through cinematography. Something that didn't always quite work for my taste. Loved Gotham though and the gritty and dark atmosphere. The voice-over and noir-aspects were perfect!

From a visual standpoint this might be the best Batman movie after Burton, the score was great as well and I loved Pengiun. But overall I could have done without Catwoman (who put on some cool fighting though) and her sub-plot involving Falcone. Dano as the Riddler was just alright, but I expected more while he reminded me of Heath's Joker too much and not in a good way.

The third act completely fell apart for me and I had no clue why all of this was happening so yes, the movie was indeed too long. Although it could hold up my attention I have to confess. So I'd recommend watching this on the biggest screen possible, but although the movie got alot of things right I don't know if I want to see a sequel or anymore from this particular universe.

Spoiler: And please for the love of god, don't follow through with Barry Keoghan as the Joker, please don't. That scene in Arkham was "Gotham" kinda campy and completely threw me off...

[allegate]

Stealing the top comment from the video: It's amazing that the film was ~25% completed filming when they released this.

[Deacon Blackfire]

So it’s rather daunting for me to jump into this conversation because I’ve been a massive fan of Batman and his world since I was extremely young (if you're a comic fan you may even recognize my username), growing up on the VHS of the original Tim Burton film, the Animated Series, and my father's collection of comic books (nervously peeking through The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum: A Serious House On Serious Earth at a tender young age probably played a key role in me becoming such a weirdo). I love the Christopher Nolan trilogy and even love the 60s TV show for the campy absurdity that it is. Hell even the Schumacher films are good for a blazed laugh. The only utterly worthless major motion picture take on the character for my money is Snyder’s godawful films with Affleck, whose Batman actually embodies the “right wing warrior for the one percent slaughtering street criminals” caricature so popular with internet contrarians who usually don’t know or care much about what Batman is generally about (obviously ‘Batman’ is not the healthiest or most pragmatic approach to dealing with trauma or affecting social change but this is a fantasy, one that engages more with corrupt institutions and the corrosive will of the wealthy than its critics would suggest, and frankly we know gun-hating Bruce Wayne isn’t a Republican because we already know what awful right-wing weapons manufacturer Bruce Wayne would look like because Tony fucking Stark exists). The first two Batman: Arkham games were also nerd heaven for me. So yeah I love, love Batman and was hopeful for this one but not super jazzed up until recently with its release and all the generally positive reactions. Saw it last night.

Generally I liked it. But not as much as I hoped I would.
-IN-DEPTH SPOILERS FOLLOW-

- I think my biggest problem with the film is Batman / Bruce Wayne himself. Pattinson isn’t like bad or anything but underplays it to a degree that at times we are verging on Val Kilmer level sleepwalking. It’s like he’s too embarrassed wearing the Batsuit to actually be forceful in his portrayal or something. Poke fun at Bale’s growl all you want, he was all in. Pattinson’s take seems like more of an eye-roll at the character. But regardless of his performance, the writing for him gave him very little to work with. Batman Begins wisely placed most of its focus on developing Bruce Wayne’s character, making us genuinely understand who he was and what he endeavored to do. While I understand the sheepishness around doing another origin story, I feel like The Batman was so timid about avoiding anything that could be seen as such that it misses crucial legwork with its title character that really undermines investment in the story.

- Riddler is basically unrecognizable but that’s not really a problem. They wanted a mystery driven story with a brainy Se7en style madman as the villain, so why not? There seemed to be potential for something interesting and potentially very original there. But like the cryptic conspiracy at the heart of Riddler’s murders, the more we learn about The Batman’s Riddler, the less interesting and original he seems. Like with how dark the tone of the film was I thought we were building toward some super dark skeletons in the closets of Gotham’s elite, darker than we had seen yet in the film, but instead the secret at the heart of the film is “Carmine Falcone owns the city.” Having a mystery about the corruption at Gotham’s heart is great but the core of that needed to be more captivating than “Gotham is corrupt as shit”, like no kidding. Something that is common knowledge in the first act of Batman Begins probably shouldn’t be the conclusion to your big mystery. And ultimately, as different as they tried to make him, and as well as Paul Dano plays the part, The Batman’s Riddler basically ends up feeling like a half-baked, slightly more politically-minded (but far less charismatic) version of Ledger’s iconic Joker. They leaned too hard into deranged when they should have leaned a lot harder into scary-smart.

- I thought Kravitz was quite good as Selina. It’s a take very much in the Year One mold and I generally thought the writing for her felt right, though like almost everything else in the film it’s a version that’s a little too subdued for its own good. Missing is a lot of the Darwyn Cooke / Ed Brubaker electricity and playfulness that makes Selina really feel like Selina, and I’m not exactly crazy about so much of her story revolving around Falcone being her dad (a plot point lifted from the crazy overrated Long Halloween and Dark Victory miniseries), but all in all I liked her. I get what some of you are saying about her being too small to buy being a physical threat but considering Batman survives being right next to an exploding bomb (and hell so does Alfred, and why did he open that sketchy package, that felt very dumb and out of character), I can suspend my disbelief.

- Only film I can think of where Colin Farrell was a highlight. He is unrecognizable and steals every scene he’s in as a gloriously scummy Arkham City meets Tony Soprano version of the Penguin. Loved the Iceberg Lounge as a dingy, strobe lit sleaze pit of throbbing nightclub music - Gotham in general felt very well executed, recognizable and yet distinct from previous versions - and though one could argue Penguin’s part isn’t of massive narrative importance, the personality he brings to the table sparkles amidst the overbearing sedateness of most everything else.

- Jeffrey Wright is a good Gordon. It’s not exactly a distinct dynamic between him and Bats from the Nolan version but hey if it ain’t broke. Andy Serkis is always good and is nicely against type as Alfred but boy did he have almost nothing to do except that one important scene in the hospital. Speaking of which…

- Exploring the ugly history of the Wayne family and the skeletons in their closet? Terrific fucking idea. Which is why it’s frustrating that they kind of wimp out of going all the way with it. Instead of “your dad was a corrupt rich asshole who okayed terrible things for profit” it’s “your dad did something unethical once for sympathetic reasons (for the sake of his poor mentally ill wife) and it went too far and he was going to confess and may have been murdered for it.” Made the revelation of Thomas Wayne’s corruption rather toothless when it could have been a lot more narratively powerful and thoroughly distinct from other versions in an appreciably modern way.

- The fight sequences were generally well done and brought to mind the fluidity of the Arkham games. I didn’t mind the car chase scene but to be honest it was almost impossible to tell what was going on, my impression was mostly wet windshields and headlights.

- The scene in Arkham setting up the Joker was absolute dogshit for so many reasons. We get it, every new version of Batman will have a Joker, that much is obvious. He’s like Alfred or Gordon, he’s too important not to show up eventually. Fine. I love the Joker! He’s been one of my favorite characters since I was a child (again, another piece of the puzzle falls into place…). But this was such an aggressively bad, obnoxious way to set up the character. Especially considering how a key theme with Joker for a while now is that Batman is indirectly or otherwise responsible for creating him or at the very least inspiring his existence. The ending of The Batman establishes that, in a world where Batman has been around for two years and is well known enough to have inspired the Riddler’s own criminal identity and reign of terror, the Joker is…some random guy in Arkham that the Riddler becomes friends with, who I guess learns to be obsessed with Batman from his new friend? Gee what a fascinating genesis. It boggles my mind that they would fast track Joker right after a Riddler that seems so Joker-informed but doing it the way they did was massively wrong-headed in a way that nothing else in the rest of the film was. And for fuck’s sake, if you’re going to do the Joker again, PLEASE not another grungy-looking disheveled guy in messy greasepaint. The character needs some flair and theater back, less Joaquin Phoenix’s deranged sap and more Mark Hamill’s sicko who delights in fucking with people. Enough of the try-hard scary shit, give me a well dressed man in strange colors, green hair over bone white skin and a too-large smile that instantly cues cold sweats, who makes us laugh even as he disturbs us.

Guess it sounds more negative than I feel all written out. It’s a complex film and I’ll need to see it again to really solidify my feelings. ‘Solid but not superior’ is I guess where I stand right now.

- and that adrenaline shot to the leg or whatever was kind of weird & out of place too.

A light green substance that, when injected, sends Batman into a crazy berserker roid rage? That ain't adrenaline baby - that is 100% Venom, the super-steroid drug that Bane mainlines in the comics. Was probably the most exciting and unexpected comics-nod in the film to me, and it sets potential for more than just Bane. Well before his character even appeared in the comics, there was a crazy and quite brutal storyline by Dennis O'Neil called Batman: Venom where Batman gets hooked on the stuff (after he's physically not strong enough to save a child) by this corrupt shitbag scientist (being bankrolled by an insane right wing general) and becomes more and more unhinged until he needs to lock himself in the cave and undergo painful withdrawal. Could be an intriguing point in future films - Pattinson Batman is one I could easily imagine having a drug problem!

Also unrelated to Batman but:

And just no thanks to the kooky stuff. Isn't that what the entirety of Marvel is? The Suicide Squad? Peacemaker? Doom Patrol? Shazam? Pretty much every goddamn comic property under the sun except batman/gotham? I mean DC is pretty much just becoming Marvel popcorn but with swear words.

No disrespect but I just needed to say you’re doing Doom Patrol so dirty by deeming it "Marvel popcorn but with swear words.” The best thing about Doom Patrol and its cast of traumatized, guilt-ridden, self-loathing weirdos is that manages to be both very funny and emotionally affecting, usually within the same episode. It’s the best kind of weird, and so many things that make the characters as appealing and memorable as they are are things that just would not fly at Disney. Hell, Larry being gay alone makes him an outlier from anything Marvel Studios would make. Weird and wacky doesn't always mean hollow and disposable. Snyder doubled down on the opposite, grim 'n gritty approach and still ended up with movies more brainless than the worst of Marvel's.

[dlb]

Oh @Deacon Blackfire thanks for your write up! I can not agree any more on your sentiments regarding a certain villain. Exactly my thoughts!

[burnmotherfucker!]

SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

No disrespect but I just needed to say you’re doing Doom Patrol so dirty by deeming it "Marvel popcorn but with swear words.” The best thing about Doom Patrol and its cast of traumatized, guilt-ridden, self-loathing weirdos is that manages to be both very funny and emotionally affecting, usually within the same episode. It’s the best kind of weird, and so many things that make the characters as appealing and memorable as they are are things that just would not fly at Disney. Hell, Larry being gay alone makes him an outlier from anything Marvel Studios would make. Weird and wacky doesn't always mean hollow and disposable. Snyder doubled down on the opposite, grim 'n gritty approach and still ended up with movies more brainless than the worst of Marvel's.

No disrespect taken! And allow me to clarify a bit. I only meant Doom Patrol was "kooky." Not that it was Marvel with swear words but my fault for the confusion. I just meant DC seems to be headed in that direction in general with stuff like Suicide Squad. Which I enjoy by the way, I just don't want EVERYTHING to be like that. And I also love Doom Patrol and agree with what you say about it. I've only seen the first 2 seasons but as soon as I can find the time I want to see the 3rd.

I wish I had time to properly reply to your whole post about Batman but I will just say that I think you are too hard on Snyder if you like the Keaton version. They both kill and Keaton's version was very far from comic accurate. At least with Affleck it was basically doing the Dark Knight Returns version of the character. But I'm also not saying those movies aren't heavily flawed and even that comic has never been my favorite. I too prefer a Bats who doesn't kill and use guns but he does those things in the first ever comics so I also have no problem with a storyteller going that route.

edit: @Deacon Blackfire the rest of this post is just general thought, not directed at you specifically, sorry I should have split them up

And for the love of god can our society please come to the realization that "depiction of" and "endorsement of" are not the same goddam thing. Especially when it comes to art and film. Yes, sometimes your favorite character is going to get it wrong but maybe that's the whole point. They're wrong and they need to learn from it.

With Batman I feel like everyone has their own version in their head and whenever something is depicted as being different from that they automatically dislike it. But I think that's a bad approach. It's essentially the same thing religious people do. Batman is a character that writers should play with and change to their liking to tell their story. Some of those stories I'm going to like and some I'm not but it's fun to see new things being brought out.

I also finally got around to seeing the new film and I absolutely loved it. I haven't had enough time to think about it to give it proper criticism right now but I think people are going overboard with saying how realistic it is. It is grounded in the sense that no one has super powers but it is also very much a dark fantasy story. Not as stylized as something like Sin City, but not as real world as the Nolan movies either. But they got Gotham so right to me, best on screen live action Gotham yet. I thought the actors all killed it. Music was the best since Elfman for sure. And it's a Batman we haven't had in live action. A young one who doesn't really have much figured out yet, one that is dissociated. People who are complaining about Bruce in this film aren't looking at the big picture. The character has a ton of room to grow as the story moves forward and I'd much rather see that than another static version of Bats where we have to make all the stories about the villains because there's no where else to move the character. Too soon to know but right out of the gate this is better than every movie with the possible exceptions of The Dark Knight and Phantasm. Maybe I will sour on it over time or maybe I'll end up liking it even more but for now I'm just glad there's another good batman film out there.

I also totally get why some people don't like it or think it is too dark but as someone who actually reads the comics this is the closest I think it gets to the comics I like.

And it's worth noting the direction and the sound design are amazing. I know there is cgi somewhere in this film but I did not spot one single moment of it at any point. For me to say that about a comic book movie makes me very happy. The nods to the other films, the Hitchcock POV shots, letting the camera tell the story. The car chase, the hallway scene lit with only real gun muzzles! More of that type of film making and Scorsese wouldn't be complaining about comic book films. Having actors convey thoughts without having to spoon feed the audience by saying every single thing out loud. There's so much this movie gets right and people seem to be responding to that.

[mfte]

That did not need to be 3 hours long. At some parts I was in awe watching how high they were able to elevate the Batman universe. At other parts it was laughably bad, scenes included for no other reason because they looked cool or needed to be for convenience. Baaaaad exposition dumps. Certain things to drive the plot happened out of convenience while others took a long time for no good reason. The feel of Gotham city was incredible. It's a good movie that should have been edited down.

I liked what Pattison did with the character. He is Batman all the time, even if he isn't in the costume. It reminded me of Twin Peaks The Return where no one around Dougie Jones ever acknowledges that "there is something seriously off about this person". The movie almost makes him to emo at time, but that's ok. IT ISN"T A DIARY MOM! IT"S A WAR JOURNAL!!!! A few times I thought that Pattinson was doing with Batman/Wayne the things he wanted to do with the Edward Cullen character. It made me think of an interview with him on Stern where he talks about almost getting fired from Twilight because he didn't think that the character should ever smile. He looked right for the part shirtless from the back, but when you see his arms, he seems too thin to be Batman.

Zoe Kravitz brings the charm and charisma as always.
Paul Dano as The Riddler was truly frightening and is up there a long with Ledger and Nicholson.
Colin Farrell was a lot of fun.
Jeffrey Wright was solid.

That one scene was straight up copy and pasted out of Se7en! You know what I'm talking about. Nirvana did not need to make an appearance. The Batman theme is just The Dark Vader theme with a few notes missing.

[BRoswell]

Saw it in IMAX and LOVED. IT. It was nice to see an "adult" Batman film for once. Obviously they could only go so far with a PG-13 rating, but it was brutal enough for me to feel it in my gut. Speaking of which, it was great that everything felt grounded in reality again. I didn't feel like I was watching a bunch of actors on green screens like I did with the Zack Snyder films, which was so refreshing and helped me get pulled into what was happening. The film definitely riffs on Se7en a lot, but as a big fan of that film, I didn't mind at all. It worked, and I was with the film all the way. Three hours went by in a flash for me. The cast was absolutely solid (shoutout to Colin Farrell for getting totally lost in that Penguin makeup) and I loved the score. I can't wait to see it again.

[october_midnight]

The Rataalada site has three new puzzles. Solving them presents the deleted scene we all knew was coming eventually lol.

If you wanna be spoiled:

[Wretchedest]

Man I can see why they deleted that, it's just not as good as it should be for so many reasons

[BRoswell]

I enjoyed the scene, but I can see why it was ultimately cut. It's a little too Silence Of The Lambs in a film that's already deeply indebted to Se7en, and the film doesn't really NEED The Joker. I like having him as a possibility at the end, but I think more than that would have been too much. Still, I liked the performance, and I'm glad they really made The Joker looked fucked up rather than...whatever the hell he was supposed to be in Suicide Squad.

[mfte]

Praise heaven that they cut that scene out of the 3 hour movie.

IT was awful but if they already cut and pasted a scene from Seven, why not cut and paste a scene from Silence of The Lambs.

I like Barry Keogan as an actor. His performance in "Calm With Horses" left me hopeful that his Joker portrayal would be interesting, but whatever I just watched felt like a bad Heath Joker impression.

[dlb]

I hated the little scene in the movie and I am super disgusted by the horrible make-up at the end and the even worse acting or impersonation of Heath's Joker. I really miss a dark, gentleman-like trickster as the Joker. At this point I don't know why he has to be a mumbling mess all the time that in no way seems capable of being one step ahead of anybody nor be able to do anything physcialy.

[Frozen Beach]

I haven't seen the film yet, but I did watch that deleted scene, and it's so obviously lifted from Manhunter that I'm almost disgusted. Borders on plagiarism.

[Jackryder2025]

I haven't seen the film yet, but I did watch that deleted scene, and it's so obviously lifted from Manhunter that I'm almost disgusted. Borders on plagiarism.

You do know films borrow from eachother all the time? Not only that its a deleted scene, It would honestly fit so perfectly in the movie and was better than the scene we got. But i get the joker talking to the riddler and that scene connects the dots for the next movies and blah blah blah, Not the end of the world.