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Thread: Persecution of Religions

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    This is an interesting story about the origins of the George Soros conspiracy which you hear from alt-right circles a lot

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...rban-netanyahu
    Holy crap (no pun intended), this is a great article, thanks!!

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    You do an awfully good job of building up yourself and your religion, while trying to tear down another religion and those that seemingly have none or don't care. Your Judaism does not make you special; if you believe in God, we are all His chosen children. We're also just dumb humans. The Bible is pretty explicit about judging others' beliefs (I know, not "your" Bible) and wasting time trying to understand the true nature of God.
    What religion am I tearing down? None. I only care that people act kindly towards each other. My complaint was that someone was trying to relegate religion to the privacy of one's home, as if living one's religion were a bad thing. I gave personal examples of living my religion to show how it wasn't a bad thing.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    This is an interesting story about the origins of the George Soros conspiracy which you hear from alt-right circles a lot

    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...rban-netanyahu
    Read the whole article. All I can say is wow. I always had a gut feeling that the "George Soros is the root of all evil" stuff was just paranoia. Now I have the facts to back it up.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    My complaint was that someone was trying to relegate religion to the privacy of one's home, as if living one's religion were a bad thing.
    I didn't say that people had to HIDE their religion. You misunderstood me when I described it as a private and personal thing. I meant that it was something that should be between yourself and your gods first and foremost. That connection should be more important than trying to influence politics or society, which is what religion is really about in my opinion. If it makes YOUR life better, fine, but don't try to fit everyone else into the box that you're comfortable in. Every religion seems focused on gaining followers and territory and power over others. It's about being "little gods", if you will. It attracts narcissistic people who want to feel like they're special despite the fact that most religions are based on the same things. If it was about something more than that, people wouldn't buy into a lot of what religions are selling. It would be something that grows and evolves as a deeper understanding is reached. Instead, most religions seem to be stuck in the Stone Age and are content to not ask questions or be curious and to act simply on what they think is "faith", but is really brand loyalty.
    Last edited by BRoswell; 05-15-2019 at 10:40 PM.

  5. #125
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    And here’s where we can see the predictable conclusion of this... in a modern sense, yes, keep your religion in the privacy of your own home/self. Get the fuck out of mine. Let me live my life in some peace and stay out of politics and my life

    RIGHT NOW, as in at this very moment in this country, we're seeing women's reproductive rights being assaulted in the name of religion.

    This is tone deaf to be having this conversation at this moment without acknowledging that the jurisdiction of your religion doesn't begin and end with where you feel it's convenient.
    Last edited by Jinsai; 05-16-2019 at 12:55 AM.

  6. #126
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    America seems to think Israel is more important than its own population, it spends more on Israel than any other country, no other country is as revered in the American government than Israel.
    weird because it has a smaller population than New York and London.

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    I say, "I just believe in one less God than you", so... let's listen to NIN or something. :-)

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    RIGHT NOW, as in at this very moment in this country, we're seeing women's reproductive rights being assaulted in the name of religion.
    It’s interesting that abortion is not only LEGAL in Israel, it’s FREE.

    See this: U.S. Births Fell To A 32-Year Low In 2018; CDC Says Birthrate Is In Record Slump

    From 2017 to 2018, the number of births fell 1% for Hispanic women and 2% for non-Hispanic white and non-Hispanic black women. The rate fell by 3% for women who are identified as non-Hispanic Asian and non-Hispanic AIAN (American Indian & Alaska Native).
    See this article: The Racist Roots of the Pro Life Movement

    What, exactly, is race suicide, you might ask? I’ll just let my old friend Teddy Roosevelt explain it to you:

    ” …if the average family in which there are children contained but two children the nation as a whole would decrease in population so rapidly that in two or three generations it would very deservedly be on the point of extinction, so that the people who had acted on this base and selfish doctrine would be giving place to others with braver and more robust ideals. Nor would such a result be in any way regrettable; for a race that practised such doctrine–that is, a race that practised race suicide–would thereby conclusively show that it was unfit to exist, and that it had better give place to people who had not forgotten the primary laws of their being.”

    (On American Motherhood, by Theodore Roosevelt, 1905)

    That’s right – race suicide is the idea that white people will become “extinct” if they don’t have enough babies.

    This fear, that people of colour would out-baby us, is where we find the actual origins of the pro-life movement. It didn’t come out of the idea that abortion was a sin, or the dogma of be fruitful and multiply, but rather the panicked notion that white people might not run the world anymore.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-17-2019 at 12:07 AM.

  9. #129
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    it's just a crazy thing... I know this is off topic but maybe there's an aspect to this, because regardless of the factors influencing this shift towards bringing abortion before the Supreme Court, the numbers when it comes to voters is resonating with religious "values."

    I just saw a woman on FB posting in response to this Alabama abortion law... and her response? "OK, but how many women are raped in Alabama, and how many of those rapes result in pregnancy?" Yes, a woman posted this.

    And the background profile for her FB page is a cross and an American flag.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    it's just a crazy thing... I know this is off topic but maybe there's an aspect to this, because regardless of the factors influencing this shift towards bringing abortion before the Supreme Court, the numbers when it comes to voters is resonating with religious "values."

    I just saw a woman on FB posting in response to this Alabama abortion law... and her response? "OK, but how many women are raped in Alabama, and how many of those rapes result in pregnancy?" Yes, a woman posted this.

    And the background profile for her FB page is a cross and an American flag.
    These people are fed a constant torrent of bad information. It’s also because they support the patriarchy. Like this asshole in my Twitter feed:

    5F206CD4-D057-45C3-A369-9B598431BCBB.jpeg

    These are the actual stats:

    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-17-2019 at 11:04 AM.

  11. #131
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    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-17-2019 at 01:06 AM.

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  13. #133
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    Here’s a really good article: 5 Things The New York Times Got Wrong About Anti-Semitism

    The article points out that the majority of anti-Semitic acts carried out in Europe were committed by jihadists. Further, it points out that (left) “British Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn has publicly and privately linked himself with Hamas and Hezbollah, two anti-Semitic terrorist organizations.” It also points out certain levels of victim-blaming when it comes to Netanyahu, as well as statistics that the Times piece ignored. Finally, it points out actions being taken to combat anti-Semitism that the Times piece didn’t point out. Even without the Times piece as a reference, this article stands alone.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-17-2019 at 01:19 PM.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRoswell View Post
    I didn't say that people had to HIDE their religion. You misunderstood me when I described it as a private and personal thing. I meant that it was something that should be between yourself and your gods first and foremost. That connection should be more important than trying to influence politics or society, which is what religion is really about in my opinion. If it makes YOUR life better, fine, but don't try to fit everyone else into the box that you're comfortable in. Every religion seems focused on gaining followers and territory and power over others. It's about being "little gods", if you will. It attracts narcissistic people who want to feel like they're special despite the fact that most religions are based on the same things. If it was about something more than that, people wouldn't buy into a lot of what religions are selling. It would be something that grows and evolves as a deeper understanding is reached. Instead, most religions seem to be stuck in the Stone Age and are content to not ask questions or be curious and to act simply on what they think is "faith", but is really brand loyalty.
    thank you for your answer.

    I think you are painting religion with a pretty broad brush. different religions score differently on your scales of assessment. Judaism, for example, is entirely uninterested in converting anyone. Sure we get converts, but I'm not sure why. We're not interested in world domination or exerting mind control or in gaining a fortune. However, switching to your other scale, the essence of Judaism is right action. Our foundational stories speak of God giving us responsibilities to each other, to love our neighbor as ourselves, 613 of them. Don't steal. Don't murder. Don't commit perjury. Etc. From its inception, our religion was acted out in a very public manner--creating an ideal community. If we stop trying to fix the world, we might as well close up shop.

    I DO understand what you are saying. Like, it would NOT be cool to try to establish Jewish law as US law. That's not what I'm advocating. I'm saying that the ethics and values that each of us brings from our religions should and do inform our politics, civics, and business ethics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Our foundational stories speak of God giving us responsibilities to each other, to love our neighbor as ourselves, 613 of them. Don't steal. Don't murder. Don't commit perjury. Etc. From its inception, our religion was acted out in a very public manner--creating an ideal community.
    Don’t neuter your pets, don’t have homosexual sex, don’t put cheese on meat, don’t cross-dress, don’t wear clothes that mix wool and linen, don’t suffer a witch to live... many of the 613 mitzvah are ridiculous, some damaging... and I still won’t get why there’s tons of laws prohibiting specific forms of incest, but none generally protecting children or condemning sexual assault in large

    At least we know not to eat lobster...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I'm saying that the ethics and values that each of us brings from our religions should and do inform our politics, civics, and business ethics.
    These things are informed by higher education, upbringing, and experience.

    I respect that your relationship with your religion motivates you to do good toward society and the less privileged, those without a voice, etc.

    But, from a philosophical standpoint, I believe this motivation comes more from the collective experience of suffering that Jews have experienced for thousands of years, vs. the mitzvahs.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-19-2019 at 11:28 AM.

  17. #137
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    I hate christianity's death grip on the United States. This recent crop of abortion bullshit is a prime example of how toxic and idiotic it is to dictating decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Don’t neuter your pets, don’t have homosexual sex, don’t put cheese on meat, don’t cross-dress, don’t wear clothes that mix wool and linen, don’t suffer a witch to live... many of the 613 mitzvah are ridiculous, some damaging... and I still won’t get why there’s tons of laws prohibiting specific forms of incest, but none generally protecting children or condemning sexual assault in large

    At least we know not to eat lobster...
    Actually you can eat lobster and ham to your heart's content. The prohibitions apply only to Jews and there is no need to become a Jew.

    If you think Judaism doesn't prohibit rape and child molestation, you are dead wrong. Call your local rabbi and have a good talk.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat Mom View Post
    These things are informed by higher education, upbringing, and experience.

    I respect that your relationship with your religion motivates you to do good toward society and the less privileged, those without a voice, etc.

    But, from a philosophical standpoint, I believe this motivation comes more from the collective experience of suffering that Jews have experienced for thousands of years, vs. the mitzvahs.
    Are our ethics influenced by our experience? Yes and rightly so.

    Certainly you are correct that the suffering of Jews through the millennia plays an important role, perhaps as important a role, as Torah.

    By our upbringing? Yes, and not always a good thing. It usually depends on whether our parents have come from families that honor religious mores. At one time, all of our society honored religious mores, except for criminal types and big jerks.

    By our education? I would say NO, unless we have taken courses in ethics. Most have not. Knowing about plate tectonics, or what sonata allegro form is, or the line of species from lower primates to modern man does not teach ethical values. Much in art and literature teaches many different and confusing approaches to ethics. What is one supposed to choose?

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Actually you can eat lobster and ham to your heart's content. The prohibitions apply only to Jews and there is no need to become a Jew.

    If you think Judaism doesn't prohibit rape and child molestation, you are dead wrong. Call your local rabbi and have a good talk.
    OH JESUS. I'm sure a Rabbi will tell me it's a bad thing to do, and what kind of a fucked up rabbi would say otherwise? It's just that there's no mitzvah for it, but there's a ton of laws about specific relatives you shouldn't fuck. These commandments were supposedly given to people from GOD. Of course I don't care and it doesn't apply to me because I don't believe it, but that's a silly way to say "no, these rules are fine to break if you're a gentile." Tell that to women before they were lit on fire for being witches, or tell a gay person that this part of the holy book hasn't been used to justify oppressing homosexuals, or that the parts about how to handle your slaves weren't cherry picked by slave owners to justify owning slaves.


    But when you're pitching the "613 laws" you didn't highlight the ones about how gay people are bad... no, you chose to mention stuff like "don't murder." I wonder why.

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    At one time, all of our society honored religious mores, except for criminal types and big jerks.
    There have been atheists throughout history in large numbers far, far more often than you seem to think. Religious folks being in the majority doesn't translate to "all of our society", and in fact there are many documented cases of powerful and influential figures paying massive amounts of religious lip service but not believing a word of it at all behind the curtains. And many criminal organizations are notoriously religious. Classic Italian Mafia members are/were fanatically Catholic. You can fall back on the old "oh but they weren't REAL Catholics then" but if you asked them, they believed 100% with out exaggeration that their faith was real and strong.

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demogorgon View Post
    And many criminal organizations are notoriously religious. Classic Italian Mafia members are/were fanatically Catholic. You can fall back on the old "oh but they weren't REAL Catholics then" but if you asked them, they believed 100% with out exaggeration that their faith was real and strong.
    Well, technically, Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sin. Even murderers can be forgiven of their sins, hence why the Popes are against the death penalty and nuns go sit and pray with people on death row.

    But what instantly jumped into my mind when I read your (above post) was this scene in The Godfather

    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-21-2019 at 08:09 PM.

  24. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    By our education? I would say NO, unless we have taken courses in ethics. Most have not. Knowing about plate tectonics, or what sonata allegro form is, or the line of species from lower primates to modern man does not teach ethical values. Much in art and literature teaches many different and confusing approaches to ethics. What is one supposed to choose?
    You said “ethics and values,” and I said “higher education” (e.g. college).

    I’m not talking the level of ethics that I was taught in graduate-level paralegal school. I’m not even talking specific ethics classes.

    I’m saying that ethics are taught by way of expectations of students, disciplinary actions shown when necessary, hard work rewarded; it’s all teaching students that slacking will no longer be accepted, the difference between right and wrong, that good behavior is rewarded, that hard work is rewarding, etc.

    Also, most current Gen Eds require second level English, which includes Composition, which includes Rhetoric, which includes a whole week (minimum) studying Ethos, Logos and Pathos.

    Regarding teaching different approaches to ethics: It’s interesting that you imply this as being negative. I received my B.A. in English Literature and Communication (I minored in Art) from a private liberal arts college in the Chicago area that’s operated by the United Church of Christ. It was founded in 1871 as a theological seminary. It’s primary claim to fame is being Alma Mater to Reinhold Niebuhr. The institution’s focus is providing a good, well-rounded education, to promote and encourage free-thinking and exploration; different approaches to ethics is a plus, not a minus. Both literary theory and art history are critical lenses through which we view society and culture.

    My Alma Mater’s mission statement:

    Elmhurst College inspires intellectual and personal growth in our students, preparing them for meaningful and ethical contributions to a diverse, global society.

    We promote intellectual freedom, curiosity and engagement; critical and creative inquiry; rigorous debate; innovative thinking and integrity in all endeavors. We ignite a passion for learning.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-21-2019 at 09:17 PM. Reason: Trying to compose on an iPhone

  25. #145
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    Speaking of Reinhold Niebuhr:

    For a little while, former F.B.I. Director James Comey was on Twitter as “Reinhold Niebuhr“ but finally outed his real identity after he released his book.

    The entry to Comey’s book is a Niebuhr quote:

    “Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.”

    Edit: Everyone else probably knows Niebuhr’s “Serenity Prayer.
    Last edited by Cat Mom; 05-21-2019 at 09:27 PM.

  26. #146
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    I liked where this thread started, what with the increasing attacks on places of worship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    OH JESUS. I'm sure a Rabbi will tell me it's a bad thing to do, and what kind of a fucked up rabbi would say otherwise? It's just that there's no mitzvah for it, but there's a ton of laws about specific relatives you shouldn't fuck. These commandments were supposedly given to people from GOD. Of course I don't care and it doesn't apply to me because I don't believe it, but that's a silly way to say "no, these rules are fine to break if you're a gentile."
    Hi Jinsai, good to see you again. Thanks for writing back.

    No, the laws weren't given "to people." They were given to Israel alone. "And the LORD said, speak to the Children of Israel saying..."

    Those Jews who articulate laws that Gentiles are to follow (the Orthodox) specify the seven Noahide laws, which do NOT include the prohibition of unclean animals, kosher slaughter, or separation of meat and dairy OR the keeping of the Shabbat, among many other things. The seven Noahide laws include seven categories:


    Do not profane G‑d’s Oneness in any way.


    1. Acknowledge that there is a single G‑d who cares about what we are doing and desires that we take care of His world.


    2. Do not curse your Creator.
    No matter how angry you may be, do not take it out verbally against your Creator.


    3. Do not murder.
    The value of human life cannot be measured. To destroy a single human life is to destroy the entire world—because, for that person, the world has ceased to exist. It follows that by sustaining a single human life, you are sustaining an entire universe.


    4. Do not eat a limb of a living animal.

    Respect the life of all G‑d’s creatures. As intelligent beings, we have a duty not to cause undue pain to other creatures.


    5. Do not steal.
    Whatever benefits you receive in this world, make sure that none of them are at the unfair expense of someone else.


    6. Harness and channel the human libido.
    Incest, adultery, rape and homosexual relations are forbidden. The family unit is the foundation of human society. Sexuality is the fountain of life and so nothing is more holy than the sexual act. So, too, when abused, nothing can be more debasing and destructive to the human being.


    7. Establish courts of law and ensure justice in our world.
    With every small act of justice, we are restoring harmony to our world, synchronizing it with a supernal order. That is why we must keep the laws established by our government for the country’s stability and harmony. This would include the prosecution of things like assault, larceny, etc.

    You are correct that there is no mitzvah in a Gentile keeping kosher or observing the Shabbat, etc. But similarly it IS NOT WRONG for them to eat lobster or mow their lawn on Saturday.

    Of course, on the flip side, should they voluntarily wish to keep kosher or observe the Shabbat, and by doing so draw near to Israel, more power to them. And of course, if they wish to become a Jew and take upon themselves the obligation to the 613, we would welcome them into the tribe.

  28. #148
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    Does this guy even like Nine Inch Nails? Not a single post about the band on a message board about said band. Just this thread and one in Life In General where he references Dennis Prager.
    Last edited by Swykk; 05-22-2019 at 07:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat Mom View Post

    I’m not talking the level of ethics that I was taught in graduate-level paralegal school. I’m not even talking specific ethics classes.
    ...

    Also, most current Gen Eds require second level English, which includes Composition, which includes Rhetoric, which includes a whole week (minimum) studying Ethos, Logos and Pathos.
    It could be that you had this class in Ethos because English was your major. As my minor, I had to choose only one, and chose Logic.

    I think that such applied ethics as "hard work is rewarded" is pretty slim pickings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demogorgon View Post
    There have been atheists throughout history in large numbers far, far more often than you seem to think. Religious folks being in the majority doesn't translate to "all of our society", and in fact there are many documented cases of powerful and influential figures paying massive amounts of religious lip service but not believing a word of it at all behind the curtains. And many criminal organizations are notoriously religious. Classic Italian Mafia members are/were fanatically Catholic. You can fall back on the old "oh but they weren't REAL Catholics then" but if you asked them, they believed 100% with out exaggeration that their faith was real and strong.
    And not too many decades ago, such atheists were raised by believers of one faith or another, and brought up in a Judeo-Christian culture that supported a common set of values.

    The Mafia has been excommunicated by the Pope.

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