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Thread: Skinny Puppy's VIVIsectVI Tour Support in 1988

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    Skinny Puppy's VIVIsectVI Tour Support in 1988

    Hi,

    At this time of my own investigation, here is my view :

    Sure :
    - October 21 1988 : Phantasy Theatre (Cleveland) - USA (Sure according to Closure DVD)
    - October 31, 1988 : Irving Plaza (New York City) - USA : Skinny Puppy show is sure according to poster and newpaper. NIN is only sure according to bootleg Show Up or Throw Up
    - November 02, 1988 : City Gardens (Trenton) - USA : sure according to newspaper review where NIN is cited (thanks TheBang)


    Wrong date :
    October 30, 1988 : 9:30 Club (Washington DC) - USA : according to newspaper 2 days before the show, Mark Of Kane was the opener : this band was opener and a lot of date. I have info at Austin, Phoenix for example.
    I think Montreal is also wrong but I have to find the newspaper to be sure. It's a big journey for a young band for just a date !

    Doubt :
    - Oct 22, 1988 - Detroit, St Andrews Hall : the venue and date is sure for Skinny Puppy (promo 20 days before) but nothing about the opener
    - Oct 23, 1988 - Cincinnatti, Bogarts : sure for skinny puppy with the ticket. I do have 2 or 3 newspapers dealing with. This night, at least Ogre and Cevin finished in jail cause someone in the venue though the dog puppet was real. This is mainly why I got papers about this night. Nothing about NIN or any opener
    - Oct 26, 1988 - Columbus : I have an echo, no venue and nothing about opener
    - Oct 27, 1988 - Pitsburgh - Graffiti : 2 or 3 newspapers about the date but nothing for the opener
    - Nov 01, 1988 - Philadelphia - Chestnut Cabaret : a Skinny Puppy date according to 2 newspapers 4 and 3 days before the show, always without opener name
    opener
    I can't find anything about the other dates.


    Any help is welcome
    Last edited by CAMEO172; 02-05-2019 at 10:40 AM.

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    I don't have any primary documentation to offer I'd only just turned two years old when this tour kicked off, LOL but from interviews I've read with Reznor, he has stated they were only asked to open at these shows as a last-minute replacement for another act, so it's logical that other bands would have been opening on some (most?) of the other dates instead. TR has repeatedly expressed embarrassment for how clunky NIN was onstage at this point and felt they didn't connect with the Skinny Puppy crowd... given that, it's actually surprising that they lasted as an opener through November, even if sporadically.

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    There are a few interviews with Vrenna where he talks about that tour among other things. Says NIN were asked to join SP for the remainder of a tour (8 or so dates) starting with Cleveland. The whole idea came along as TR was in talks with Nettwerk at that point and it seemed logical for two bands from the same label to tour together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    October 30, 1988 : 9:30 Club (Washington DC) - USA : according to newspaper 2 days before the show, Mark Of Kane was the opener : this band was opener and a lot of date. I have info at Austin, Phoenix for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    but from interviews I've read with Reznor, he has stated they were only asked to open at these shows as a last-minute replacement for another act
    Yes, that's what I've read in several other places too, and for that reason, I think it's possible that the Washington newspaper ran with old promo copy for when Mark of Kane was still planned to be the opener, and that NIN did, in fact, open anyway. So, I wouldn't take that promo as gospel just yet as to what actually happened that night.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    I think Montreal is also wrong but I have to find the newspaper to be sure.
    NIN did not go to Canada at all. Kitten with a Whip opened for all those dates. I've documented several sources of confirmation for that here: http://www.nin.wiki/Talk:VIVIsectVI_Tour

    I've tried to wipe out those Canada dates everywhere that I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    Doubt :
    Can you please post these newspaper articles anyway, so that we can at least have confirmation of the dates and venue, even if it doesn't tell us if NIN opened or not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    NIN is only sure according to bootleg Show Up or Throw Up
    BTW, an interesting nugget, I read this recently somewhere (I wish I could remember where), but "Show Up or Throw Up" was the name of the Skinny Puppy afterparty.

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    I would love to see SP open for NIN someday

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    If you want to use these newspapers, please copy them so the bandwidth is not used by HIH. ( a tiny link to the site would be great near the use )
    I have even more but these are the same info. I have a great newspaper warning for NY show by SP, telling to eat before the gig but coming with a vomit bag as there is a video of vivisection !

    I definitely understand the idea of adding these dates by default.. just in case of.

    I will not do it on Happiness in Heresy cause I don't want to spread potential wrong dates.

    And, of course, maybe Washington DC info is wrong and less than 2 days before the show, there was a swipe of opener. A good proof would be having Make of Kane announced on New York Halloween Date. As we are nearly sure this is wrong, it can have weight for the day before.
    I have tried to find more info on Mark of Kane inside 1988 newspapers but at this time nothing appears clearly.

    Can we read Chris interview dealing with this period somewhere ?

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    Those articles about Chud are great.

    edit: What song did they use him for?
    Last edited by SM Rollinger; 02-06-2019 at 10:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    Can we read Chris interview dealing with this period somewhere ?
    Trent talks about Nettwerk and the Skinny Puppy tour in detail here:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160424...cle.php?id=635

    So, given the last minute nature of the tour, I think it's quite possible that the Washington paper did not receive updated promo copy that Mark of Kane was no longer the opener.

    Bonus: Googling Mike Fiscus's name brought up this page:
    http://xoxoabbyxoxox.tumblr.com/post...n-royal-oak-mi

    It says NIN from 1989, but it must be 1990. That sign on the wall says "Meet Nine Inch Nails, Sat. July 28 at Blitz Records at 5:00 PM. Then see them live at St. Andrew's Hall."

    July 28, 1990 during the Hate tour is when they were at St. Andrew's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    Bonus: Googling Mike Fiscus's name brought up this page, NIN from 1990:
    http://xoxoabbyxoxox.tumblr.com/post...n-royal-oak-mi
    Holy shit. That's awesome.
    Last edited by ninlive; 02-06-2019 at 06:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninlive View Post
    Holy shit. That's awesome.
    Edited my post. It's 1990, not 1989.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    Can we read Chris interview dealing with this period somewhere ?
    https://www.chaoscontrol.com/tweaker...time-eternity/
    http://www.providermodule.com/forum/...pireFreaks-com

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    Embarrassing... I live in Canada and thanks to this thread I JUST learned that SP is a Canadian band.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    BTW, an interesting nugget, I read this recently somewhere (I wish I could remember where), but "Show Up or Throw Up" was the name of the Skinny Puppy afterparty.
    Close!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Man, getting hammered with early 90's Trent after a show sounds like both an incredible and a completely horrifying experience.

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    What’s the remix of The Only Time by Adrian Sherwood on that promo cassette?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erneuert View Post
    What’s the remix of The Only Time by Adrian Sherwood on that promo cassette?
    That cassette is just this sampler of Pretty Hate Machine:

    https://www.discogs.com/Nine-Inch-Na...elease/2678560

    They're not actually remixes. It's just labeled that way on the artwork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    That cassette is just this sampler of Pretty Hate Machine:

    https://www.discogs.com/Nine-Inch-Na...elease/2678560

    They're not actually remixes. It's just labeled that way on the artwork.
    Dang, got excited there for a second.

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    I want to share my last investigation..

    this is nearly sure, OCTOBER 21, 1988 Phantasy Theatre (Cleveland) is a WRONG NIN date. this is not the very first NIN show !!!
    Lesson 7 was the opening band for sure (info from Scott from Lesson 7 himself). There wasn't two opening bands.
    I have read here and there that Huntington was the first NIN gig as Skinny Puppy Support and it seems to be true when all shows had good proofs.

    There was a backstage poster with all Cleveland gigs before 1991 and this 1988 one wasn't one.. kind of proof too.


    The only problem is the Cleveland 89 video. This is really a 89 show and it wasn't mislabelled. I think this is the December 29 89 gig BUT Richard Patrick is not on the video (Sanctified and Sex Dwarf) and two reviews of this 89 show are clear about the band.. Nick Rushe also seems not been on stage... can't understand.

    The Cleveland 89 reviews are quite full of details about setlist and now I wonder if Sex Dwarf wasn't played during soundcheck. Sanctified and Sex Dwarf showed the same stage setup and the same Trent dress up but a completely different angle and great view without audience for Sex Dwarf.

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    ^^
    I thought it was a common understanding that that Sanctified/Sex Dwarf footage is definitely 1988 and the label in the video that says 1989 is wrong. It's completely different from the the other 1989 footage that we have and also matches exactly with what Trent and Chris told about 1988 gigs (as far as band members and stage setup go). Sanctified is also the same arrangement as Irving Plaza recording and don't match with how they played it in 1989.

    As for the two songs being filmed from the different angles - I remember pretty clearly that in one of those videos (forgot which one exactly) the cameraman walks to a different spot on the floor while continuing filming. I think it's safe to assume the floor was relatively empty during NIN performance and the cameraman was able to roam freely without being obstructed or bumped into.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    ^^
    I thought it was a common understanding that that Sanctified/Sex Dwarf footage is definitely 1988 and the label in the video that says 1989 is wrong
    If this is from 1988, this is not from Cleveland Skinny Puppy gig !

    Also forget to say that on the Cleveland 89 poster, it's written "Cleveland Debut".. it seems clear this is the first NIN show in the city

    so the video mislabeled the year and the city ? too much no ? that why I think the label is ok even if I can't understand .. the true is somewhere else.

    need more investigations for sure ! And that why I share my investigation, this is not a complete one at this time but just a way to check.


    P.S : I discovered a lot of mistakes from common ideas and that make this work so funny !

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    It's definitely a 1988 date, as fillow says, because of the song arrangements, the stage arrangement, personnel, clothing, etc. NIN just labeled it incorrectly as 1989 on the Closure DVD.

    As for the location, if you look at the comments in the YouTube video here:



    there are numerous people commenting who confirm that it is the Phantasy. Here are a few examples:

    Not Available
    3 years ago
    @Isabella Swan That definitely looks like the Phantasy, I spent countless nights there at the time also.

    Zachery Allan Starkey
    8 years ago
    This is at the Phantasy in Lakewood, artsy neighborhood in Cleveland. I used to play there quite a bit when I was in college, before I moved to NYC.

    J. Good
    1 month ago
    Looks like the Phantasy club in Lakewood (CLE).

    waitandbleed47
    6 years ago
    WHAT. i never dreamed the F I R S T show was at The Phantasy. I live a few minutes from it. I knew they got started in Cleveland and were from the area, but idk. I guess I never connected that the original show was in a club I go to frequently. Too fucking cool.

    Danielle Bjelland
    1 month ago
    I as well have performed on that stage many times in the past. My uncle Bart Koster recorded Trent's very first pro studio recordings - I've held the DAT and listened to it. The Phantasy will reopen in a few years as a large chunk of the new lgbtq entertainment district in Cleveland.

    StuffedShark
    7 years ago
    This WAS the first show at the Phantasy night club in Lakewood Ohio (not very "artsy" back then...nor now) Lakewood is the first suburb west of Cleveland ... I remember the show I was front row stage left


    Regarding the Cleveland poster, I think that's probably just revisionist history on Trent's part. If you read some of Trent's interviews from 1989, he totally bashes the 1988 appearances and the band, so I think saying the 1989 date was NIN's Cleveland debut is his way of trying to erase, disavow, or just ignore the 1988 stuff.

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    So this is a Cleveland 88 gig but outside of Skinny Puppy support ! or a Cleveland 1989 before October and still with the first line up

    Lesson 7 is for sure the support band of the Skinny gig.

    I discovered a November 11 1988 date in Pittsburg, there is probably an other one and it may explain the Sex Dwarf cover outside of a "real" NIN gig

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBang View Post
    Regarding the Cleveland poster, I think that's probably just revisionist history on Trent's part. If you read some of Trent's interviews from 1989, he totally bashes the 1988 appearances and the band, so I think saying the 1989 date was NIN's Cleveland debut is his way of trying to erase, disavow, or just ignore the 1988 stuff.
    good point to you
    Last edited by CAMEO172; 03-01-2022 at 06:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    So this is a Cleveland 88 gig but outside of Skinny Puppy support ! or a Cleveland 1989 before October and still with the first line up

    Lesson 7 is for sure the support band of the Skinny gig.
    I really don't think so. That video came from NIN's own archive, at Trent's behest obviously, so I think we can assume that "First Live Show" is an accurate description. It's well-documented in many interviews that NIN live did not exist until Nettwerk asked Trent to join Skinny Puppy on tour on short notice.

    So, video from NIN's archive labeled "first live show", confirmed to be the Phantasy, and NIN live created to support Skinny Puppy. Occam's razor says that that's a video of NIN opening for Skinny Puppy at the Phantasy in 1988.

    You didn't provide your source info for Lesson Seven opening for Skinny Puppy at Phantasy, but even if that's true, couldn't NIN have been an additional, last-minute opener?

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    part of the email message from Scott Crow from Lesson 7 :

    If NIN played that theater it was NOT with Skinny Puppy on VIVI sect Vi. We absolutely did that leg of the tour.

    We only did a handful of dates and it was an amazing experience for us.

    That tour was a break out tour for Puppy and for NIN (who did the first show in DC in October I think? )
    I want to believe it at this time and I also read this somewhere in a facebook page.

    Scott just sent me a ticket scan from Kansas City in 1990 and a few backstage pictures.

    and a Phantasy 88 gig before Skinny Puppy support ?!
    Last edited by CAMEO172; 03-01-2022 at 07:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMEO172 View Post
    Hi,

    At this time of my own investigation, here is my view :

    Sure :
    - October 31, 1988 : Irving Plaza (New York City) - USA : ........ NIN is only sure according to bootleg Show Up or Throw Up
    If the question is did it really happen, I know at least 1 IG collector that had one of those right place/right time deals and wound up at this show. He offered an unsolicited comment about catching NIN at Irving Plaza in '87 ('88). They aren't the type to know every bit about NIN so I don't have reason to believe they'd make it up like someone saying they were at Woodstock.

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    That is interesting. Here's a YouTube comment from that video above again:

    Kobra Kommandar
    3 years ago (edited)
    Saw their 2nd show outside of Cleveland (after Chicago) opening for Skinny Puppy Halloween night '88 at the Ritz in NYC. Was a big Skinny Puppy fan but was blown away by NIN. Ended up backstage at one point and talked with Trent a bit, he was shopping between labels and hadn't signed yet. I later got to know his drummer of the time Chris Vrenna (Die- Warzau/ Stabbing Westward period) who told me that he was supposed to be playing drums for it but they were short a keyboardist so they brought out the 8-track with the demos and set it up on the riser. They only used that for a few shows until they got another keyboardist. Love the classic VHS look!

    So, this guy says NYC was their 2nd show outside of Cleveland (he remembered the venue wrong). That would line-up with Scott saying Wash DC was their first gig.

    So, how about this for a theory? What if NIN only played Wash. DC, NYC, Philadelphia, and New Jersey opening for Skinny Puppy? You seem to have some evidence already that Lesson Seven opened at Cleveland, Detroit, and Cincinnati, and The Wake at Columbus. So, what if NIN only did those 4 support dates, plus a warm-up show (their first show, and as a headliner?) at the Phantasy a few days before Wash. DC?

    Is that video of the Phantasy Theatre or Nite Club? We know Skinny Puppy played the Theatre.

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    @TheBang : like NEO, you are beginning to believe !
    until something is radically sure, this is unsure or wrong and I used to imagine everything.

    I really wonder if there was a Press Review of the Skinny Puppy gig from The Scene or something like that.



    I'm watching Sanctified/Sex Dwarf from this "Cleveland 1989" footage.. The band space on stage seems really big and I can't see clearly a second drum or anything else for an headliner next..it seems to have something at the back of Trent but can't be sure. do you ?
    Don't know if for 6 songs, the band would have such a space on stage.. and Skinny Puppy seems to have a lot of stuffs on stage, probably already setup before the gig.

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    I have found my facebook comment, from Skinny Puppy fans pages (and not fan of NIN for most of them)

    That info is a bit off, all stemming from a glitched 1998 A.P. magazine article about both artists. Trent officially joined the tour leg at Huntington, as Lesson Seven played the night before.

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