Trump 2019 - There are still children in detention separated from their parents

[Jinsai]

I got blocked by a LEFT leaning friend for calmly and politely pointing out that an anti-GOP meme that he had posted was an already-debunked hoax. First he replied "so what", so I tried to explain that propagating fake news is not how we make progress against fake news - that we should strive to set a better example and hold ourselves to high standards. That's when the block came.

Blocked for being on his side, but respectfully suggesting that we're better served by being truthful than spreading false information. Some "friend".

Yeah... though to be fair, I've pointed out when friends are sharing fake Trump quotes, like the one that is now everywhere claiming he said something like "If I ran for president, I'd run as a republican, they have the stupidest voting base and they'll believe anything."

HE DID NOT SAY THIS. It's important to assert that... but like I was saying, when I've pointed this out to liberals and progressive friends, they more often than not will say "oh my bad" and then even delete the posts.

I've only had a real argument about it with someone once, and her opinion was "I see what you're saying, but the point still holds."
Yes, it does, and there's ample evidence to point to that he has no respect for the people who vote for him. We don't need to make shit up. I've had left leaning friends correct things I've shared or asserted, and I'm receptive to being corrected, and I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong.

[sweeterthan]

I try to speak up as as well but I also know my audience. So I say it politely or I do not engage. If it’s a photoshop photo, I try to post the original photo instead of a link. some people will not change no matter how many facts you have. That’s why we are here in the gd trump era (fml I hate even typing it)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mantra]

I recently read this great article that perfectly captured how I currently feel about Facebook and the poisonous influence it's had on some of my own older relatives. It's depressing but it's also hilariously insightful: Twilight of the Racist Uncles.

[allegro]

I recently read this great article that perfectly captured how I currently feel about Facebook and the poisonous influence it's had on some of my own older relatives. It's depressing but it's also hilariously insightful: Twilight of the Racist Uncles.

While I agree that there are a TON of right-wing nut jobs on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, etc., I can't agree that it can be broken down into age groups. Sure, it's funny and convenient and probably comforting to assume that the older generations turn into right-wing assholes, it's not truth. I know MORE older liberals than older conservatives, and I see a SHIT TON of young crazy Trump supporters on social media. So the comfort you get from assuming that it's only the old farts that will die off in some conservative nursing home is false.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

Exhibit E

[Mantra]

While I agree that there are a TON of right-wing nut jobs on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, etc., I can't agree that it can be broken down into age groups. Sure, it's funny and convenient and probably comforting to assume that the older generations turn into right-wing assholes, it's not truth. I know MORE older liberals than older conservatives, and I see a SHIT TON of young crazy Trump supporters on social media. So the comfort you get from assuming that it's only the old farts that will die off in some conservative nursing home is false.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

Exhibit E

Yeah, I totally agree, and I actually once made a big post about this exact topic.

I still loved the article just because of how perfectly it captured a certain social phenomenon that I think we're all seeing play out over and over on Facebook. But still, the main weakness in the article is that he somewhat overstates the boomer angle. The very thing he describes about boomers on Facebook could just as easily be written about angry 20 year old white dudes getting radicalized through 4chan and racist Discord servers. It's delusional to think that right wing ideology will simply disappear through the passing of a generation. I don't think it's completely unfair to talk about generational differences given that Trump won the majority of all 40+ voters and Hillary won with everyone 40 and younger. And when we're discussing Facebook specifically, it does seem to have been adopted as the platform of choice for most older folks. But he should have zoomed out just a bit and pointed out that this exact same process is playing out in other online places with other groups of people.

[allegro]

I don't think it's completely unfair to talk about generational differences given that Trump won the majority of all 40+ voters and Hillary won with everyone 40 and younger.

THAT is not that correct or simple, either.

Notice "share of electorate" number on the right, below. Notice also that there isn't a massive spread between the two numbers as far as age in the older groups, but there's a MASSIVE difference in white vs. minority.
White people elected Trump. See also.

[Mantra]

THAT is not that correct or simple, either.

Notice "share of electorate" number on the right, below. Notice also that there isn't a massive spread between the two numbers as far as age in the older groups, but there's a MASSIVE difference in white vs. minority.
White people elected Trump. See also.

Well sure, there are a lot of different things that we can learn from looking at the data, but there was still a correlation between age and voting for Trump. The Pew Research Poll in your post shows this. The info about the share of the electorate doesn't really change this correlation. I'm not saying it's an overwhelming trend, or that this is the element people need to focus on the most. For sure, I agree with what you're saying, the most important demographic for Trump's victory was white people, period. Every other demographic correlation changes completely when you isolate for race, including age. Like if you look here and scroll down to the "Age by Race" box, Trump literally won every single age range with white people.

But even there, you can still see that Trump's lead increased with age. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out or theorizing about why this correlation exists. This trend of people leaning more conservative as they get older goes back way further than Trump, and I've always been kind of baffled by it given how hostile Republicans are to social security, medicare, programs like Section 202, etc.

[allegro]

But even there, you can still see that Trump's lead increased with age. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that out or theorizing about why this correlation exists. This trend of people leaning more conservative as they get older goes back way further than Trump, and I've always been kind of baffled by it given how hostile Republicans are to social security, medicare, programs like Section 202, etc.

Most of the last several Presidential elections show the over-45 demographic (per exit polls) voting Republican, but I imagine that some of that has some financial ties? The older you get, the more money you make, and some people start hating taxes a lot more? Many voting seniors don’t NEED Social Security, and they’re paying big bucks for supplemental insurance so they just don’t give a fuck?

I can only look at myself and people I know.

I’m pushing 60, so is my husband; we’ve voted since 1980 and have never once voted for a Republican Presidential candidate. My Mom is 81, has never voted for a Republican Presidential candidate. I know dozens of older people like this. I just don’t know anyone who “became more conservative with age” and switched to Republican.

On the other hand, I grew up with Republicans who were Republicans when they were young, when they were old, and died Republicans.

Elizabeth Warren? She grew up in a family of Republicans. She WAS A REPUBLICAN until 1995 (age 46) and became a Democrat.

Bottom line: I don’t know that I really believe exit polls or voting preference surveys. I don’t believe that we know how people vote. At all.

Mitt Romney and his team of data crunchers had some foolproof system that they thought was SO right, Mitt bought fireworks for the celebration.

The pollsters were absolutely convinced that Clinton was several points ahead of Trump and there was no way he was going to win; reading these Trump campaign books, the Trump campaign saw the polls and didn’t think he was going to win.

Anyway, everything Trump is doing right now is damage control to keep his base intact because nobody has a fucking clue who or where his base is, but he knows he just has to be his dicky self and they’ll love it.

[theimage13]

THAT is not that correct or simple, either.

Notice "share of electorate" number on the right, below. Notice also that there isn't a massive spread between the two numbers as far as age in the older groups, but there's a MASSIVE difference in white vs. minority.
White people elected Trump. See also.

So basically uneducated white men elected Trump? (I mean, I know it goes deeper than that...but that's the overall trend I'm seeing in that graph)

[allegro]

So basically uneducated white men elected Trump? (I mean, I know it goes deeper than that...but that's the overall trend I'm seeing in that graph)

If we look at the fine print as to where they GET this data (exit polls of roughly 20,000 people or surveys of even less people about how they might vote before they vote - even though they may be lying on both the survey and the exit poll), we could probably determine that we rely way too fucking much on polls and we all know that Trump voters were:

A) Really stupid people
B) Republicans who would never vote for a Democrat, even if Jesus Christ ran as a Democrat
C) Democrat blue collar workers who were unemployed or underemployed and didn’t feel that Clinton represented them
D) Independents who threw a dart

So, (C) are not guaranteed to vote for him again; neither are (D). (A) and (B) will absolutely vote for him again, although (B) may not if a Republican runs as an Independent.

[theimage13]

Well, if I could even vote in our primaries, this would've been the news I needed to not vote for Biden. 100% will still vote for him over Trump if that's the general.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...on-rule-report

[Mantra]

Most of the last several Presidential elections show the over-45 demographic (per exit polls) voting Republican, but I imagine that some of that has some financial ties? The older you get, the more money you make, and some people start hating taxes a lot more? Many voting seniors don’t NEED Social Security, and they’re paying big bucks for supplemental insurance so they just don’t give a fuck?

I can only look at myself and people I know.

I’m pushing 60, so is my husband; we’ve voted since 1980 and have never once voted for a Republican Presidential candidate. My Mom is 81, has never voted for a Republican Presidential candidate. I know dozens of older people like this. I just don’t know anyone who “became more conservative with age” and switched to Republican.

On the other hand, I grew up with Republicans who were Republicans when they were young, when they were old, and died Republicans.

Elizabeth Warren? She grew up in a family of Republicans. She WAS A REPUBLICAN until 1995 (age 46) and became a Democrat.

Bottom line: I don’t know that I really believe exit polls or voting preference surveys. I don’t believe that we know how people vote. At all.

Mitt Romney and his team of data crunchers had some foolproof system that they thought was SO right, Mitt bought fireworks for the celebration.

The pollsters were absolutely convinced that Clinton was several points ahead of Trump and there was no way he was going to win; reading these Trump campaign books, the Trump campaign saw the polls and didn’t think he was going to win.

Anyway, everything Trump is doing right now is damage control to keep his base intact because nobody has a fucking clue who or where his base is, but he knows he just has to be his dicky self and they’ll love it.

Yeah, in my own personal life I seen have examples of both. I have two aunts who used to be quite liberal when they were younger, always voted Democrat, seemed pretty cool and smart. And I also have an uncle who was a full blown activist hippie back in the day who went to anti-war protests. In the last five or so years they've all been converted into full on Breitbart wackos, sharing all these demented conspiracy theories on facebook. Seeing how quickly they become completely indoctrinated has been pretty strange, and I can't help wondering what the fuck is going on. On the other hand there's people like my mom and her sister, who have moved further to the left as they've gotten older. So I don't know. I definitely don't think people should project all their outrage onto some boomer bogeyman. But I haven't entirely thrown my hands up on data-driven analysis, even though I realize how imperfect it is, and I think it's worthwhile to think about the reasons for various correlations and trends, thinking about at why it is that white people end up thinking certain ways, and men, and older people, and so on.

This article claims that the correlation is not because seniors become more conservative in their views, but rather that poor people don't live long enough to become seniors.

[Mantra]

Well, if I could even vote in our primaries, this would've been the news I needed to not vote for Biden. 100% will still vote for him over Trump if that's the general.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...on-rule-report

How come you can't vote in the primaries?

[theimage13]

How come you can't vote in the primaries?

Closed. Can only vote for your registered party's primary. And I'm registered independent.

[sweeterthan]

Closed. Can only vote for your registered party's primary. And I'm registered independent.

This is why I don’t register independent.

[allegro]

In the last five or so years they've all been converted into full on Breitbart wackos, sharing all these demented conspiracy theories on facebook.

Perhaps this is caused by all the bullshit hyperbole and propaganda spread by social media and Fox?

One of the articles I linked, above, does show a concerted effort on the right to use memes to convince people that the left is “bad.” It’s an effective method of brainwashing through lies and fear.

The older people get, the more vulnerable they feel and the more fear and anxiety they experience; they’re more susceptible to this propaganda?

[Mantra]

Perhaps this is caused by all the bullshit hyperbole and propaganda spread by social media and Fox?

One of the articles I linked, above, does show a concerted effort on the right to use memes to convince people that the left is “bad.” It’s an effective method of brainwashing through lies and fear.

The older people get, the more vulnerable they feel and the more fear and anxiety they experience; they’re more susceptible to this propaganda?

Yeah, this article talks about a study where they found that seniors and ultra-conservatives shared the most fake news, and one of their theories is that this is a digital literacy issue. I think we could be doing more to teach those skills. That said, this isn't just about being tech-savvy. I work with students in their teens and twenties every day who, despite being glued to their phones all day, couldn't tell the difference between a scholarly source and a bullshit source if their life depended on it. Which is fine I guess, because this whole thing is a process, and that's why they're here. They're in college to learn those skills. But what about all the people who aren't getting this kind of education? Basic critical thinking skills and information literacy shouldn't just be a college graduate thing. I'm tired of this nonsense... I want to live in a country where people are smart.

[Jinsai]

Yeah, in my own personal life I seen have examples of both. I have two aunts who used to be quite liberal when they were younger, always voted Democrat, seemed pretty cool and smart. And I also have an uncle who was a full blown activist hippie back in the day who went to anti-war protests. In the last five or so years they've all been converted into full on Breitbart wackos, sharing all these demented conspiracy theories on facebook. Seeing how quickly they become completely indoctrinated has been pretty strange, and I can't help wondering what the fuck is going on. On the other hand there's people like my mom and her sister, who have moved further to the left as they've gotten older. So I don't know. I definitely don't think people should project all their outrage onto some boomer bogeyman. But I haven't entirely thrown my hands up on data-driven analysis, even though I realize how imperfect it is, and I think it's worthwhile to think about the reasons for various correlations and trends, thinking about at why it is that white people end up thinking certain ways, and men, and older people, and so on.

This article claims that the correlation is not because seniors become more conservative in their views, but rather that poor people don't live long enough to become seniors.

Are they getting into this Qanon thing? If so, your family has basically been indoctrinated into a cult.

[Mantra]

Are they getting into this Qanon thing? If so, your family has basically been indoctrinated into a cult.

I don't think so, but who knows. I rarely go on Facebook at this point cause it fucking stresses me out too much. I don't know what they're into these days. Last I checked my great uncle was sharing like 30 posts a day from all these right wing groups he follows. He must be following hundreds of them, and they all have these generic, interchangeable names along the lines of "Trump America" and "USA Patriots" and "Patriots for Trump" and so on. It's just a stream of garbage from some of them all day long, like this is all they do in their free time.

[thelastdisciple]

So i found these in a store here in Canada, do you folks in the U.S. see much of this junk capitalizing on how much of a stooge Trump is?

I can't get over how someone must have bought one. (IT WASN'T ME LOL)

[theimage13]

^^ I don't really shop anywhere except for groceries and thrift stores, so I can't speak to the US. I have seen a TON of this stuff all throughout Europe during my tours over there, though.

Yeah, this article talks about a study where they found that seniors and ultra-conservatives shared the most fake news, and one of their theories is that this is a digital literacy issue. I think we could be doing more to teach those skills. That said, this isn't just about being tech-savvy. I work with students in their teens and twenties every day who, despite being glued to their phones all day, couldn't tell the difference between a scholarly source and a bullshit source if their life depended on it. Which is fine I guess, because this whole thing is a process, and that's why they're here. They're in college to learn those skills. But what about all the people who aren't getting this kind of education? Basic critical thinking skills and information literacy shouldn't just be a college graduate thing. I'm tired of this nonsense... I want to live in a country where people are smart.

Idea for school exams: open internet exams. Tell your students they can use the web to answer questions, and set them up in a way that the different multiple choice answers could each be confirmed by both real sites and fake news sites. Let students learn to figure out how to tell the difference. "Sorry Timmy, the internet said you got them all right - but they were all wrong. Use better sources."

[theimage13]

Bottom line: I don’t know that I really believe exit polls or voting preference surveys. I don’t believe that we know how people vote. At all.

Why, whatever do you mean? (/s)

[Mantra]

Idea for school exams: open internet exams. Tell your students they can use the web to answer questions, and set them up in a way that the different multiple choice answers could each be confirmed by both real sites and fake news sites. Let students learn to figure out how to tell the difference. "Sorry Timmy, the internet said you got them all right - but they were all wrong. Use better sources."

Yeah, I get the sense that high schools aren't doing much in this area. I suspect that there might be a general assumption that "young people understand the internet, so there's no need." I don't know. I just know that I regularly see students in their first year composition class who have no idea what "scholarly sources" are and don't seem to understand the first thing about assessing the quality of an online source. I pretty regularly have to explain why you can't cite some random idiot in a youtube video in an academic research project. And most students do grasp the concept if you explain it to them very thoroughly, so it's not like they're all just a bunch of idiots. They just don't seem to have been exposed to these ideas before, which is why I tend to think that high schools aren't teaching them much about quality research, digital literacy, etc. Given that we're in the age of fake news, I feel like it's more important than ever that we start placing more pedagogical emphasis on this.

[allegro]

Idea for school exams: open internet exams. Tell your students they can use the web to answer questions, and set them up in a way that the different multiple choice answers could each be confirmed by both real sites and fake news sites. Let students learn to figure out how to tell the difference. "Sorry Timmy, the internet said you got them all right - but they were all wrong. Use better sources."

You can’t have competency exams covering subjects the students weren’t taught.

I concur with @Mantra ; when I saw the younger students in composition classes, they could barely do a decent Google search (let alone actual academic research).

It was evident that even the AP kids were just pushed along out of high school without this skill.

I believe most (all?) college students ARE taught online research skills, now, e.g. Wikipedia is an okay starting point but it’s never a good academic source. Second-level English is pretty much required as a Gen Ed, teaches students how to do academic research using college access to a huge variety of academic databases. You are also taught how to identify quality research sources and research, cull the research, etc.

Maybe the public school internet budgets can’t handle this?


Thing is, it’s not just thinking stuff that isn’t real is real; Trump supporters think the truth is “fake news.”

[Jinsai]

I remember having a paper I submitted for my Critical Studies in English Literature course being refuted, and I was asked to recompose it because one of my sourced points was derived from Wikipedia. I had a next day deadline to correct and re-source my points, or I would receive a failing grade.

Back to scholastic journals, and it was a headache I didn't expect, but it taught me something about the legitimacy of sources; you need to source the actual source, not a disputable source of a source.

Sorry for the detour down scholastic nostalgia lane.

[theimage13]

Yeah, I get the sense that high schools aren't doing much in this area. I suspect that there might be a general assumption that "young people understand the internet, so there's no need." I don't know. I just know that I regularly see students in their first year composition class who have no idea what "scholarly sources" are and don't seem to understand the first thing about assessing the quality of an online source. I pretty regularly have to explain why you can't cite some random idiot in a youtube video in an academic research project. And most students do grasp the concept if you explain it to them very thoroughly, so it's not like they're all just a bunch of idiots. They just don't seem to have been exposed to these ideas before, which is why I tend to think that high schools aren't teaching them much about quality research, digital literacy, etc. Given that we're in the age of fake news, I feel like it's more important than ever that we start placing more pedagogical emphasis on this.

Yeah, and that was my whole point. I wasn't suggesting an exam like this BEFORE teaching them digital literacy - although you could do it, give them their shockingly poor grades afterwards, and use that as an introduction to the lesson (and throw away the grades).

I took a media literacy course in college over a decade ago, but even before that, I learned about acceptable sources when I was in the public school system. This was back before wikipedia existed or fake news sites were an issue. I guess we were ahead of the times.

[ryanmcfly]

Yeah, and that was my whole point. I wasn't suggesting an exam like this BEFORE teaching them digital literacy - although you could do it, give them their shockingly poor grades afterwards, and use that as an introduction to the lesson (and throw away the grades).

I took a media literacy course in college over a decade ago, but even before that, I learned about acceptable sources when I was in the public school system. This was back before wikipedia existed or fake news sites were an issue. I guess we were ahead of the times.

One of these days I'm going to be a Government teacher (moving to colorado for 1-5 years so my plans are currently on hold pending if my wife gets into vet school or not.) I will definitely be using this as an exercise because it is sooo good.

[Jinsai]

This was back before wikipedia existed or fake news sites were an issue. I guess we were ahead of the times.

i think I got in trouble for sourcing Wikipedia in 2002? Maybe my irate professor was ahead of the curve

[Jinsai]

Troops are being sent to paint border fencing for the next month or so to enhance its aesthetic appeal, apparently, and also cuz some spurious unbacked claim that pretty painted walls are harder to scale...

Republicans... do something... for Chrissakes DO SOMETHING

[Jinsai]

so... Mars... of which the moon is a part...

FOR FUCK'S SAKE. Ok, yes, it's time for the 25th amendment.. Let's do this. This is CRAZY.