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Thread: Quake (1996)

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricil View Post
    Sent you a PM to compare
    I am terrible at presentation, but I have finished analyzing all of the rips, and have some "revelations" about Quake.

    First, every physical release of Quake has pre-emphasis. Every. Single. One. However, they abandoned adding the pre-emphasis flag at some point. This is the prompt (flag) that ripping programs look at to determine whether or not to apply de-emphasis. If the program is unable to detect the flag, or it flat-out doesn't exist, then you get a non de-emphasized rip. This is true regardless of what program is used.

    I can tell you that your iTunes rip is accurate, and how it's supposed to sound. Mine wasn't. Want to guess why? Yours had the flag set, which let iTunes know to apply de-emphasis, my release has no flags whatsoever. That means that any rip from a Quake release which tells you there is no pre-emphasis is inaccurate (you need to de-emphasize it yourself). All of my first rips were inaccurate. I used SoX to deemph all of my rips, and what do you know, they matched your initial iTunes rip. I then de-emphasized your XLD rip, and yep, it matched your initial iTunes rip. Your initial XLD rip matched all of my initial rips, which is what tipped me off.

    I have Spek and Audacity screenshots for every rip, before and after using SoX to de-emphasize. I also have shntool, auCDtect, and DR logs for everything. I wanted to get all of the pertinent information out there before (unnecessarily) flooding my point with technical shit that most people don't care about or makes no sense to them. I "have the receipts" though, if you'd like to see a few visual comparisons.

  2. #122
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    Thank you for this. I'm used to hearing it "right" myself, but ever since I ripped it "incorrectly," I think I favor the brighter version. It makes the de-emphasized version sound literally filtered (which it is, technically).

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricil View Post
    Thank you for this. I'm used to hearing it "right" myself, but ever since I ripped it "incorrectly," I think I favor the brighter version. It makes the de-emphasized version sound literally filtered (which it is, technically).
    Yep, and add to that we're more accustomed to music sounding this way (now) thanks to the "Loudness Wars" / brickwall mastering. I personally find the boost in treble harsh, but that's probably from blasting my ears with incorrect Miles Davis and John Coltrane rips for so long. Red Book pre-emphasis is more or less equivalent to what some would call a "loud remaster":




  4. #124
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    Quake Theme - aka Reptile’s awesome badass cousin.

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    I’d never heard anything from Quake at all so decided to do some hunting last night.

    Little did I know the disc images are available on archive.org which made it all super easy. Fortunately XLD can read bin+cue files so was able to extract the soundtrack instantly and then I used xAct to apply de-emphasis so now I have a perfect FLAC copy of the soundtrack.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtuck90 View Post
    Id never heard anything from Quake at all so decided to do some hunting last night.

    Little did I know the disc images are available on archive.org which made it all super easy. Fortunately XLD can read bin+cue files so was able to extract the soundtrack instantly and then I used xAct to apply de-emphasis so now I have a perfect FLAC copy of the soundtrack.
    Your thoughts? IMO you could remove the original soundtrack from The Shining, insert the Quake soundtrack and itd be just as haunting.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erneuert View Post
    Your thoughts? IMO you could remove the original soundtrack from The Shining, insert the Quake soundtrack and it’d be just as haunting.
    Half way through so far and really enjoying it. It’s sort of TDS ambient cousin with lots of overlap of sounds used etc and the feel of it

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    The catalog number for my release is 1000463.201.US (back of jewelcase); 1000463.221.US (from back of booklet). Mine came in a bigger box packaged with the 2 expansion/content updates, purchased from Sam's Club. I've already confirmed that my disc is Quake v1.08, WinQuake v1.09, and GLQuake ? (should be the latest version); it does not contain pre-emphasis and appears to be a completely different pressing. There are slight millisecond differences in the tracking (which ends up just being silence), and the data track shows as 4.5x times the length in EAC.

    I plan on posting all my logs here when I'm done. I'm ripping with the latest EAC, EAC v0.95 prebeta 3, dBpoweramp, iTunes, and CDParanoia. Is there any other program you'd like me to try when comparing our rips?
    Wow thanks, cool. I don't think we/I/you need any more rips, but the question I really want to try and answer is, was the pre-emphasis flag set intentionally, or was it a production error?

    I.e, does applying de-emphasis to the data on my 1.01 CD produce something audibly equivalent to a straight rip of your later CD? If not, which is wrong?

    Since the de-emphasis step is not a perfect digital process, we won't get 1:1 streams but hopefully they're close enough to be ably to audibly tell whether it has been applied or not, or close enough that some kind of frequency analysis clearly shows whether they're close.

    My theory is: If the later pressings without the pre-emphasis flag set are roughly equivalent in terms of frequency distribution to a de-emphasised copy of the original pressing, then the flag was set intentionally and that is the "correct" audio. If the audio stream (w/o applying de-emphasis) on the original and later pressing are equivalent, then the pre-emphasis flag was set in error and the audio should never have been de-emphasised.
    Last edited by jmtd; 01-20-2020 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Wow thanks, cool. I don't think we/I/you need any more rips, but the question I really want to try and answer is, was the pre-emphasis flag set intentionally, or was it a production error?

    I.e, does applying de-emphasis to the data on my 1.01 CD produce something audibly equivalent to a straight rip of your later CD? If not, which is wrong?

    Since the de-emphasis step is not a perfect digital process, we won't get 1:1 streams but hopefully they're close enough to be ably to audibly tell whether it has been applied or not, or close enough that some kind of frequency analysis clearly shows whether they're close.

    My theory is: If the later pressings without the pre-emphasis flag set are roughly equivalent in terms of frequency distribution to a de-emphasised copy of the original pressing, then the flag was set intentionally and that is the "correct" audio. If the audio stream (w/o applying de-emphasis) on the original and later pressing are equivalent, then the pre-emphasis flag was set in error and the audio should never have been de-emphasised.
    I'm not sure. The treble is very harsh on some tracks without applying the de-emphasis curve, but to my ears it's not harsh enough when the standard curve is applied. This is another reason why we need a Definitive Edition!

  10. #130
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    Might be old, but news to me. Someone undid the backwards masking so you can hear a few things Trent says during the whispering. Neat!


  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    Might be old, but news to me. Someone undid the backwards masking so you can hear a few things Trent says during the whispering. Neat!

    Can’t listen right now. Can anyone transcribe? @piggy must add to ninwiki!

  12. #132
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    Thanks @Jon for putting all the work in to get us this far!

    I still think it's unfortunately not clear what Trent's intention was. It's still possible that the pre-emph flag was set in error on the original master. I mean it's a surreal decision to set it at all in 1995. I can't think why they wouldn't have baked the EQ in if that was the desired result. But it's also possible that it was dropped in error on the re-issues, especially since it's more likely that team NIN were less hands-on (or at all involved) when those were produced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erneuert View Post
    Can’t listen right now. Can anyone transcribe? @piggy must add to ninwiki!
    "much too long", "talk too much", "get too far" ; it's still pretty hard to pick out
    Last edited by jmtd; 01-22-2020 at 06:42 AM.

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    Forma Tadre "Navigator" reminds me a lot of the Quake soundtrack.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Thanks @Jon for putting all the work in to get us this far!

    I still think it's unfortunately not clear what Trent's intention was. It's still possible that the pre-emph flag was set in error on the original master. I mean it's a surreal decision to set it at all in 1995. I can't think why they wouldn't have baked the EQ in if that was the desired result. But it's also possible that it was dropped in error on the re-issues, especially since it's more likely that team NIN were less hands-on (or at all involved) when those were produced.
    With the sound effects primarly being 11/22, wouldn't that lean more towards the music pre-emphasis being the choice of a developer/designer?

    Vinyl, please

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    Quote Originally Posted by snichols View Post
    Forma Tadre "Navigator" reminds me a lot of the Quake soundtrack.
    I dont hear it at all but what an amazing record. See also, Haujobb - Freeze Frame Reality.

  16. #136
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    What's the best audio rip of Quake out there? I got an old lossless rip, but curious if there's a better, newer lossless one out there.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmtd View Post
    Thanks @Jon for putting all the work in to get us this far!

    I still think it's unfortunately not clear what Trent's intention was. It's still possible that the pre-emph flag was set in error on the original master. I mean it's a surreal decision to set it at all in 1995. I can't think why they wouldn't have baked the EQ in if that was the desired result. But it's also possible that it was dropped in error on the re-issues, especially since it's more likely that team NIN were less hands-on (or at all involved) when those were produced.



    "much too long", "talk too much", "get too far" ; it's still pretty hard to pick out
    I might be projecting, but after 1:10, I think that among the other voices, I heard "trigger" (@ 1:23.5 - 1:24) and "determined flash" ...and I feel pretty strongly like I hear "bang" @ 1:18 - these repeat one or more two times in the audio that follows.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    With the sound effects primarly being 11/22, wouldn't that lean more towards the music pre-emphasis being the choice of a developer/designer?
    I don't know if I buy the theory (put about in a thread on HydrogenAudio a couple of years back) that the developers were forced to use low-bitrate sound effects due to system restrictions, and therefore surreptitiously slipped pre-emphasis flags into the CD so the rolled-off treble would match the in-game sound effects better. It's more likely that the developers had nothing to do with the use (intentional or not) of pre-emphasis. I remember reading that Reznor insisted id Software provide the soundtrack in uncompressed CD audio as a condition of his participation, but I really doubt they had the budget to go to a fully-fledged music mastering house and pay a top-dollar engineer who knew what they were doing each time they patched/updated the software and had to assemble new master disks as a result. I'm leaning towards the pre-emphasis flags being set to "on" in some pressings (including mine) by mistake, and accurately set to "off" in others; it'd just be the result of when and where they assembled the master disk someone pushed the incorrect button.
    Last edited by botley; 01-22-2020 at 08:13 PM.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    I'm leaning towards the pre-emphasis flags being set to "on" in some pressings (including mine) by mistake, and accurately set to "off" in others; it's just a function of when and where they assembled the master disk someone pushed the incorrect button.
    That seems the likeliest path, given how uncommon pre-emphasis is on CDs. The credits on my shareware disc just say "Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails for Sound Effects and Music" - there's no information about whether or not anyone even mastered it. It just seems like it would have been a very odd choice if it was deliberate, and more like someone forgot to reset the system before pressing the next master.

    The code on the inside ring of my disc is IFPI L532 and then (in reverse type) 203029-05 Y6802N. I have no idea if that gives any indication of the plant that pressed it - I never got that deep into tracking down manufacturing information.

    Bring on the Definitive Edition!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post

    The code on the inside ring of my disc is IFPI L532 and then (in reverse type) 203029-05 Y6802N. I have no idea if that gives any indication of the plant that pressed it - I never got that deep into tracking down manufacturing information.
    The inside ring code beginning with IFPI Lxxx indicates the designated number of an individual laser beam recorder machine that was used to etch the glass master. For example, on my Canadian retail copy distributed by GT Interactive, it's IFPI L531, so the master disks that pressed our copies were likely etched at the same facility by adjacent machines. There should be another IFPI code on the transparent hub of the disc, which is hard to see except under bright light at certain angles, indicating the plant and stamper that was used to make your specific disc.

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    And, yes, I recognize it's dumb that the convention for "master disk" when it comes to the glass master is a different spelling than the final product it produces, which is a "compact disc".

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    there should be another ifpi code on the transparent hub of the disc, which is hard to see except under bright light at certain angles, indicating the plant and stamper that was used to make your specific disc.
    ifpi 92s4

  23. #143
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    I have this version https://www.discogs.com/Trent-Reznor...release/337055 with the ifpi 1010 Mould Code (my old man eyes couldn't see the Mastering Code). LMK if you need a rip from this version.

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    IFPI L804 (backwards one) & IFPI 2F67 (tiny hard to see one) here

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    IFPI 4121 (inner ring)
    IFPI L238

    Nice to see not one match yet

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    This thread inspired me to do a thing last night:


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    Ifpi l533
    ipfi 92s4

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    I'm on a Mac, what software can I use to see if the flag is on my copy? I ripped with XLD and then used xAct to make a de-emphasis copy, but I'm using Audition to compare the two, and the info above 16kHz isn't as pronounced on my original. So maybe mine has the flag?

    EDIT: booted up my old XP machine and used EAC, and it says "No" pre-emphasis.

    IFPI 3V38 (inner ring)
    IFPI LG32
    Last edited by trollmanen; 01-23-2020 at 11:32 PM.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by trollmanen View Post
    I'm on a Mac, what software can I use to see if the flag is on my copy? I ripped with XLD and then used xAct to make a de-emphasis copy, but I'm using Audition to compare the two, and the info above 16kHz isn't as pronounced on my original. So maybe mine has the flag?

    EDIT: booted up my old XP machine and used EAC, and it says "No" pre-emphasis.

    IFPI 3V38 (inner ring)
    IFPI LG32
    If using EAC to test for pre-emphasis flags, the safest bet is v0.95 prebeta 3. The ability to detect flags in the subcode was removed after this version.

    ETA: You can download a portable version, so that you can have multiple versions of EAC without them interfering with one another.
    Last edited by Jon; 01-24-2020 at 10:53 AM.

  30. #150
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    Just a fun fact: this godforsaken emphasis flag is also supported in mp3 format, however, it's ignored by most decoders. Tried with lame3.97, got equal wav files from mp3s made with and without -e switch.

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