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Thread: Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    She tried to escape from him doing what? Going in bed with him? I think this attitude is wrong. I thought this movement was (among other things) about teaching women, they are not required to sleep with anyone they don't want to. Not about making sob stories about dates with celebrities that didn't go as planned. Because that's what this is. Ansari was horny asshole, she wasn't feeling it, she should put an end to it right there and then, not playing along.
    By the way, I'd like to point out that I'm not in agreement with this sort of thinking.

  2. #212
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    A bad date is when the conversation is awkward or someone makes racist jokes.

    This is extreme. He expects to fuck her on the first date. Despite all the signs that she doesn’t want to, he keeps trying. She finally does leave but not before more attempts at persuasion. If he actually gave a shit about her, the encounter would’ve stopped when she said chill out. It’s obvious to me he doesn’t care about anything but getting laid.
    How is this not obvious to everyone reading this?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah K View Post
    She tried to put an end to it. Multiple times.
    And between those times, she had consensual oral sex with him. That's the part that makes no sense to me. I can't see how she would allow that if she couldn't even stand him kissing her. You can call it self-preservation, but if she said okay to that, she at least has to take some responsibility for that act. That was not him forcing himself on her in that moment. He asked to go down on her, and she said yes, and then she reciprocated. She could have said no, like she did to everything else. That's why I have an issue with it. Why would she say no to everything else, but not something like that? Something that seems (to me) to be much more violating than kissing and touching. It just doesn't add up.

    Either way, I don't think we're going to be able to agree about this, so I'm going to leave my end of the conversation at that. I still support women and men who are going through terribly fucked up things right now, and the fact that we even have to ask if something happened 100% to the letter should tell you how bad it is right now. I would like to believe accusers all of the time, but we don't live in a world where every single person tells the whole truth, and if I read something that doesn't make sense, I have to question it, whether it sounds terrible or not. That's just how I am.
    Last edited by BRoswell; 01-14-2018 at 03:24 PM.

  4. #214
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    If he actually gave a shit about her, the encounter would’ve stopped when she said chill out. It’s obvious to me he doesn’t care about anything but getting laid.
    And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?
    Not asking for consent, and then ignoring a person's protests is definitely a part of it.

    Let me tell you about a rape that I experienced.

    I was play partners with a man for roughly a year. This was at the beginning of my BDSM exploration. Most of our interactions were kink based, and had nothing to do with sex. His penis was too large for me to have much of an interest in fucking him. I did perform oral sex on him a handful of times, though. The last time I saw him was the second time that we ever had any penetrative sex (which I consented to). He took my consent for PIV to mean he had consent for everything. Him, apparently watching entirely too much pornography, thought that spit was sufficient lube for a large penis to anally penetrate me, even though I had never had anal sex at this point. I said "no", I said "stop", and I tried to get away. I was crying. He hit me in the back of the head, shoved my face down into a tote filled with books that was against my wall, and told me to "stop whining". I continued to cry and completely froze up until he was done.

    I had had consensual sexual interactions with this man on multiple occasions. On this very afternoon, I had willingly and enthusiastically consented to PIV with him. I withdrew my consent once he started trying to anally penetrate me.

    Consent can be revoked at any time for any reason. Prior sexual interactions, even in that moment does not mean that a person can no longer withdraw their consent.

  6. #216
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    Sexual Asshatery in the News

    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?
    No. Metoo is about solidarity and truth in numbers. It turns out everyone you know has been harassed or assualted because problematic patriarchal bullshit has been accepted and hidden for centuries. Metoo says not anymore. We will not keep your secrets and we will not take your shit.

    There’s a difference between wanting to get laid and trying to get laid at all cost. Her account says he didn’t listen. Even if she was supposedly a willing participant at some point, at other points she was not. She’s allowed to change her mind at any fucking point. Fuck anyone who doesn’t agree. Read about consent. Learn.

    The oral sex happened after she already said chill. He didn’t listen. She has to spell it out for him. He didn’t care about the verbal and non verbal cues. He was not concerned about her at all.

  7. #217
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    There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of. She didn't spell out shit for him. You are spinning her story to fit your narrative. She should have said no or stop or something, not just thinking it. It is super obvious to you, as you read through her thought process during all of this, but I sure would be getting some mixed signals if a girl started to suck my dick and at no point SAID she doesn't want to do this. He was pushing her, he was being an asshole and I think that is obvious to anyone who read this story. But if you revoke your consent, you should probably say so to the other involved party in that moment, not print it in the papers months later or whatever.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    The accusations I've been seeing have been pretty consistently credible. Where is your personal line with who should come forward and who shouldn't? Are you aware of how often sexual harassment happens? Can you cite some examples of claims you think are bullshit?



    Wow, what a ridiculous concept to think that this behavior is gross. Generally, I do not touch women's knees unless I already am ~clearly aware of their sexual attraction to me~ or otherwise aware that they're fine with it -- there is no other reason I would need to have to touch their knee. Why would I touch their knee? I don't talk about sexual shit at work meals because I'm fucking working, and I don't assume the comfort level of other people. And there's also this wild idea that I generally make sure that someone is attracted to me before I send sexually charged messages. Crazy, I know. I have slept with coworkers, but it's like by recognizing power dynamics and being super respectful it's gone okay. Wow. Wild.

    And, if for some reason I did think asinine behavior like the above was appropriate, I'd probably have the minimum of self awareness to realize that there'd be at least a minimum of risk for goin' for it like that, and that I might get called out for it. Or rejected. And wow, I'd kinda be selfish as fuck to put the pursuit of my own desires over the comfort of others.

    With the #MeToo dialogue, there's this whole thing where good people do bad shit. And people seem to have a hard time grasping that. I'd say most men have likely done some shit at some point that wasn't great in terms of respecting boundaries. Because we live in a society that doesn't teach this shit. We're learning.

    And if someone is such a precious little fucking baby that they can't handle the idea that they might have made a significant mistake at some point in their life and to choose to improve upon their fucking actions, then holy shit how is it possible to exist in the world when you're that sentimental and fragile. That you can't handle the idea that folks you know or admire did that shit.

    It's not a fragile thing, to hold someone accountable for their actions, or to speak up. And, kinda entirely fuck the idea that the way women achieve ~empowerment~ is by enduring some pointless bullshit.
    I'm aware of what is happening but do you honestly think all of this movement is going to change anything? I believe about most of these accusations but we need to understand both sides of the story. It seems like a simple apology is no longer enough. Let's not forget that some of these women would also do things to each other just to get a role or something and we need to think of them as saints or crusaders? Fuck that. I know I'm going to get facepalms for this and quite frankly. I don't give a fuck.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of.
    Refusing to accept verbal and non-verbal indications that someone is not giving you consent is both.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    Her account
    By the way, people... this is what it is. Her account. And that's what's problematic with this campaign. Azari's being morally crucified, details about his private/sex life laid out to the public... on the account of a single person.

  11. #221
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    Sexual Asshatery in the News

    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    There is a big difference between being an asshole who's in it just for sex and between a sexual misconduct, which is what he's accused of. She didn't spell out shit for him. You are spinning her story to fit your narrative. She should have said no or stop or something, not just thinking it. It is super obvious to you, as you read through her thought process during all of this, but I sure would be getting some mixed signals if a girl started to suck my dick and at no point SAID she doesn't want to do this. He was pushing her, he was being an asshole and I think that is obvious to anyone who read this story. But if you revoke your consent, you should probably say so to the other involved party in that moment, not print it in the papers months later or whatever.
    Which part of her story am I spinning to fit ‘my narrative’? The part where she doesn’t want to fuck him from the beginning or the part where she doesn’t want to fuck at the end? The whole story is spun to say “I didn’t want to fuck”. So I think it’s pretty clear that my interpretation is her narrative. You are excusing his behavior as a “bad date” which is disgusting.

  12. #222
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    The fact that people can view this as a bad date is a horrifyingly accurate example of our collective failure to teach about consent when folks are young. Then they transform into adults who think this behavior is acceptable, and the cycle never breaks.

    Like, I don't even understand how or why anyone continues when it is clear that the other person is not into it. If someone is not enthusiastic about sex, then where is the fun?

    Coerced consent is not consent.

  13. #223
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    It's kinda amazing that Aziz, the person who actually was described as doing these things, has shown more ownership and maturity about this than the "um but he was just an asshole" idiocy exhibited here.

    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    And is this what metoo is about? Calling out guys who just want to get laid?
    If their seduction technique involves wearing down a barely enthusiastic partner until they give up, they don't deserve to get laid. Genuine question: Do you really not feel empathy for how shitty that experience must have been for her?
    Last edited by playwithfire; 01-14-2018 at 06:53 PM.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by thevoid99 View Post
    I'm aware of what is happening but do you honestly think all of this movement is going to change anything? I believe about most of these accusations but we need to understand both sides of the story. It seems like a simple apology is no longer enough. Let's not forget that some of these women would also do things to each other just to get a role or something and we need to think of them as saints or crusaders? Fuck that. I know I'm going to get facepalms for this and quite frankly. I don't give a fuck.
    - The movement has already changed things. You can see it in the amount of people feeling empowered to finally speak up, men (and others) becoming increasingly careful of their actions, etc. It may not *erase the problem* -- but isn't a bit of change still worth while?

    - The men/people who were accused are more than welcome to publicly account for their actions. Instead we're mostly seeing a swath of non-apologies. Remember Conor Oberst? If you're defensible, defend yourself.

    - An apology is a part of it, not repeating it in future behavior and truly understanding what they did wrong is another part. Dan Harmon got it right.

    - Yes, women can be predators too. Women have been accused. What is the problem here? Do you want us to talk about women more even though men do this at a much higher rate and it wouldn't be accurate? Can we not keep talking about the men? I don't understand what purpose "but women do it too" serves in relevance to this.
    Last edited by playwithfire; 01-14-2018 at 06:50 PM.

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  16. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Do you really not feel empathy for how shitty that experience must have been for her?
    I do. I also believe what she should have done is to leave, not going in bed with him, not proceed to have sex with him. And she didn't. Or do you think that what she has done was the right course of action? I know that the mindset here is everything women do is sacred, everything men do is evil and more power to you if this is how you feel, but wouldn't it be better for everyone, if the takeaway from this would be "girls, don't be afraid to say no" instead of "girls, go on dates with celebrities and make a story about the experience later"? I think "metoo" is rather important thing, but stories like this being a part of it is what make it less credible. It started with accounts of genuine sexual abuse and now we are at point of bedroom stories with celebrities.

  17. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    I also believe what she should have done is to leave, not going in bed with him, not proceed to have sex with him. And she didn't. Or do you think that what she has done was the right course of action?
    Two words. Learn them. VICTIM BLAMING.

    "What she should have done..." NO. FULL STOP. What HE should have done is not continued to pressure her into doing things that made her uncomfortable. She DID try to say no, too.

    Ansari wanted to have sex. She said she remembers him asking again and again, “Where do you want me to fuck you?” while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn’t want to fuck him at all.“I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’” He then poured her a glass and handed it to her.


    So first of all, she DID say no. She made it very clear that she was not interested, and she tried to say it in a way that wouldn't cause issues. Because A: she's dealing with a powerful man, and B: she's dealing with A man, period. Guys snap and get violent for the dumbest shit ever, and it would be pitifully and dangerously naive to pretend otherwise. So she did the smartest thing she could, which was recognize the situation and try to get out of it as safely as possible. And by this point, Ansari should have stopped. Period. If this account is indeed accurate - and I have no reason to doubt that it is - then the only thing that "should" have happened is that HE should have stopped. Not given her more alcohol. Not continued to push himself on her. He should have listened to the words "next time" and fucking stopped. To insinuate otherwise is to blame the victim, and I'm getting really fucking sick of it.

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    she's dealing with A man, period. Guys snap and get violent for the dumbest shit ever, and it would be pitifully and dangerously naive to pretend otherwise.
    I don't know with what kind of guys you are hanging out with (or if any), but I assure you that most of us are not some kind of violent monsters who couldn't stand being turned down without raping or beating anyone. I don't know why are you living with this mindset, but that's really the pity here imho. I'm really done with this discussion, if you think I was victim blaming, you are completely missed my point. If your advice to women is to rather have sex with someone they don't want to, instead of leaving, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

  19. #229
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    I absolutely don’t agree with what Aziz did. It was disgusting to read, period. However, I do still feel we’re starting to broach into a gray area. It’s starting to feel like every single act of inappropriate sexual behavior is being lumped in with Weinstein which just isn’t right. This is probably a controversial stance to take on this act, but mistakes do happen. Reading Aziz’s response and text back to the victim (she absolutely was a victim) at the very least sounded genuine and remorseful. Now I don’t know what amount of drugs and/or alcohol were involved on their “date,” but had there been a good amount, I’m confident saying that his judgment could have absolutely been clouded, maybe not enough to understand a girl pushing you away exclaiming “cool it.” I absolutely agree this culture with which we agree is acceptable treatment to women absolutely needs to change and has had to change for sometime. No, absolutely means no.

    However, I feel it is important to note, as Bill Burr has addressed plenty: There are some truly awful men out there, but not all women are innocent:


  20. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    I don't know with what kind of guys you are hanging out with (or if any), but I assure you that most of us are not some kind of violent monsters who couldn't stand being turned down without raping or beating anyone. I don't know why are you living with this mindset, but that's really the pity here imho. I'm really done with this discussion, if you think I was victim blaming, you are completely missed my point. If your advice to women is to rather have sex with someone they don't want to, instead of leaving, I honestly don't know what to tell you.
    Right, most of us aren't. But most women HAVE been threatened by men, so they have every reason to be cautious.

    You told us that she should have said no and that what happened is her fault. Except...she tried saying no, he wouldn't accept that answer. You literally just blamed the victim. I don't understand how you don't get that, and this is exactly WHY we have the problem of men thinking they can do whatever they want.

    "She didn't scream and kick me in the balls and try to stab me before sprinting for the door, so clearly she was consenting". That's basically what you're saying. You're blaming HER for what HE did.

  21. #231
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    Yes, I'm saying she should have said no or leave if she didn't want to have sex with the guy. How the fuck is that controversial statement by any means?

  22. #232
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    #metoo has been a digital pillory from the beginning, exposing the (sexual) misuse of power.

    Examples like this one make it seem like #metoo is now misusing its own power.

    What good is it to drag a story like this into the public domain? Are revelations like this serving the debate or do they just happen for the sake of some kind of outrage?

    Why do you treat her account like "truth in numbers", while there's practically no evidence supporting her claims?

    You're talking about victim blaming. Isn't there a chance of Ansari being the victim here? Or at least the chance that whatever happened has been a misunderstanding of sorts and went down differently than what's in her account? Calling someone a victim is to anticpate the outcome. Because if there's a victim, there must be an offender.

    Why are you so quick to judge and take sides here without at least having Ansari tell you his side of the story?

    Also, what about the presumption of innocence, ffs? The article cited is a highly problematic form of journalism. The matters of #metoo have to be debated publicly, no doubt. But it should follow common ethical principles or else it's losing its credibility. Because there's a difference between established guilt and suspicion. And you don't want #metoo to turn into #wedo.

    Seriously, with the way you're leading this discussion you're working towards hardening all fronts instead of leading a sincere debate.

  23. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    Yes, I'm saying she should have said no or leave if she didn't want to have sex with the guy. How the fuck is that controversial statement by any means?
    https://www.gotbants.com/lilyevansmf...en-experience/

    Please, please read this link, because you're still not getting it: men (no, not most men, but that's not the point) do terrible shit on a regular basis. That puts anyone being relentlessly pursued by them in a position of concern, because they know the stats and they know what could happen. It becomes a moment where they have to make a very disturbing choice: "what's safer - do something I don't really want to do, or roll the dice and risk being harmed or killed".

    The problem here, and in general, is that you and many others don't seem to understand WHY women would be in that mindset. Again, please read the above the link, and read it with the mindset that it is not an isolated incident.

  24. #234
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    At 5"5 and probably 90 lbs does Azis really pose a physical threat to anyone? Don't answer that.

    Margaret Atwood now faces backlash for questioning the MeToo movement.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment...tter-1.4486936

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    In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.

    The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.

    I continue to support the movement that is happening in our culture. It is necessary and long overdue. -Aziz Ansari
    This statement sucks. Progress is when an assaulter realizes that they misread body language and non-verbal cues and admits it without the old "well it seemed fine at the moment..." excuse. It may seem fine at the first moment when you're getting a BJ, but consent can be withdrawn at any time. The one thing I kept thinking and at times shouting out loud while reading the account of the incident from Grace was "READ THE FUCKING ROOM." If you're not getting overwhelming enthusiasm from your partner/the person you're trying to have sex with, then ask - plain and simple.

    Also, the throat thing made me want to throw up.

  26. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by telee.kom View Post
    Yes, I'm saying she should have said no or leave if she didn't want to have sex with the guy. How the fuck is that controversial statement by any means?
    It’s easy to say that in hindsight. But let’s say she drove to his place and had been drinking, or maybe he drove them. It sounds like the latter with the story since she had to take an Uber. She’s kind of, in a way, stuck in his place. I mean, yeah, she could just wait on the street in the middle of the night for a cab or Uber/Lyft, but that doesn’t sound exactly safe either. It’s similar to the whole “implication” that gets tossed around in It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia.

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    Are women just also not allowed to politely express disinterest? Is moving someone's hand away from your genitals, saying you want to stop, saying you don't want to have sex, not sufficient? If I don't want to have sex with someone do I have to leave? Or can I just express disinterest and have them respect it and then maybe we can watch some tv without them asking me (AGAIN) to suck their dick? Would any of you have kept going if a partner had done what she did?

  28. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Are women just also not allowed to politely express disinterest? Is moving someone's hand away from your genitals, saying you want to stop, saying you don't want to have sex, not sufficient? If I don't want to have sex with someone do I have to leave? Or can I just express disinterest and have them respect it and then maybe we can watch some tv without them asking me (AGAIN) to suck their dick? Would any of you have kept going if a partner had done what she did?
    This is the part of the summary that bothered me the most. She shut him down twice and he still kept pushing it after each time. Chill and maybe a massage? NOPE. Chill and watch Seinfeld? NOPE.

  29. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by playwithfire View Post
    Are women just also not allowed to politely express disinterest? Is moving someone's hand away from your genitals, saying you want to stop, saying you don't want to have sex, not sufficient? If I don't want to have sex with someone do I have to leave? Or can I just express disinterest and have them respect it and then maybe we can watch some tv without them asking me (AGAIN) to suck their dick? Would any of you have kept going if a partner had done what she did?
    Of course. And I said from the start that Ansari was an asshole for not picking this up. But please don't tell me there isn't some middle ground between expressing disinterest politely and letting yourself to be raped (as per theimage13 advice).

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    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    men (no, not most men, but that's not the point) do terrible shit on a regular basis. That puts anyone being relentlessly pursued by them in a position of concern, because they know the stats and they know what could happen.
    What's disturbing to me is the picture you guys draw of women and men here and in this whole debate.

    Because you treat grown up, self-confident and healthy people like sickly children, that have to be "protected" all around and in every situation (by whom ever) and who - for some mysterious historical/genetical reason - as a matter of principle obtain a status of victimhood.

    And at the same time - while you're postulating this bizarre sensibility for their "mindset" - you're producing a multitude of malicious stereotypes, sexist assertions and aggressive sweeping statements about men.

    That's irrational alarmism and its dimensions (that are on display here) are alarming to me.

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