Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[tremolo]

you're right, i don't know you. i'm basing what i said about you on the behavior you've exhibited in this thread. so you're telling me i'm wrong, but you have done nothing to show that i'm wrong. you've only written posts that back up what i said.

how is it having a nasty attitude to ask why it's bad for people to be considerate of others? that's feeling desperate and wanting others to be kind to the people around them. you are interpreting tone that's simply not present in what i'm saying.

You forget that I don’t have to explain myself to you, I don’t need to prove you anything, because I don’t think it matters. It doesn’t personally, and it doesn’t matter to the cause.

What I do for the cause only matters to me and those people that are directly affected by it. I don’t need to publicize it, I don’t want or need anyone’s recognition.

What I meant was that it seems that you consider being kind to one another a very basic and standard thing to do for any society that is willing to improve the quality of life of their people. And I agree 100%. But talking about being kind and considerate to other’s feelings while insulting others doesn’t make much sense.

To the point about CK and those people who complained. Too bad. I guess it sucks that it happened because they were not expecting to see CK that night. They had the chance to leave, but decided to stay, and why wouldn’t they? They got offended by a rape joke. That’s alright, they’re allowed to be sensitive about certain issues more than others. They have all the right to express how they felt. I have the right not to care. And I can’t imagine a functioning society that regulates everything in order to cater to the sensitivities of every individual so no one gets hurt by words ever again.

A comedy club is not a safe space.

[elevenism]

I'm just gonna say, if that dude showed up unannounced and told ME a rape joke, I would certainly be uncomfortable.

Ugh. Jesus.

[playwithfire]

But like, comedy clubs being not a safe space is a pretty distinct issue from how an industry handles restorative justice and sexual misconduct, and how we approach that as a society.

[tremolo]

But like, comedy clubs being not a safe space is a pretty distinct issue from how an industry handles restorative justice and sexual misconduct, and how we approach that as a society.

Restorative justice... that’s up to the legal system, and isn’t that something between the abuser and his victims, anyway?

What do you suggest instead?

[playwithfire]

Restorative justice... that’s up to the legal system, and isn’t that something between the abuser and his victims, anyway?

What do you suggest instead?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ack-ncna904976

http://restorativejustice.org/restor...minal-justice/

[Mantra]

Why do so many of our debates here have to devolve into these pointless meta-discussions about free speech? Like, the thread will just be trucking along all fine and dandy until all of a sudden:

"I think this particular thing is stupid and/or wrong."

"Yeah, well, I think what you're opinion about that is stupid and/or wrong."

"Yeah, well, I have a right to say that I think something is stupid and/or wrong!"

"Oh yeah, well so did i! I have a right to think you're stupid and/or wrong for saying that statement!"

"Hey now, by criticizing me for saying that, you're trying to suppress my free speech rights!"

"No YOU are the one who is trying to limit MY freedom of speech by telling me that I can't call you a dumbass for saying what you said!!"

"No, I don't have a problem with you saying that. YOU are the one who has a problem with ME saying my thoughts on this issue!!"

"Clearly it's the other way around because I'm just saying that you're a dumbass and you're wrong, but apparently I'm not allowed to express myself!!"

And on and on and on it goes ad nauseum. I started posting on this board back in fucking 2003 or 2004 I think, some time back in the pre-WT/bleedthrough era, and it's the same argument over and over, like we're stuck in a timeloop. To be fair, this isn't exactly a ETS issue, but more like an internet-wide thing. But still, the thing that's kind of annoying about this pattern is that it derails the discussion. So we can't talk about the actual topic at hand, which might be fun or interesting or informative; instead we have to have yet another futile free speech debate for the seven millionth time.

And so, on that note: I, as ETS Minister of Public Discourse, hereby declare all free-speech meta-debates to be BANNED and anyone who engages in them will be sentenced to 8 years of hard labor. Proceed.

[tremolo]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ack-ncna904976

http://restorativejustice.org/restor...minal-justice/

Let’s be realistic. How do you make that work and enforce it?

[theimage13]

Why do so many of our debates here have to devolve into these pointless meta-discussions about free speech? Like, the thread will just be trucking along all fine and dandy until all of a sudden:

"I think this particular thing is stupid and/or wrong."

"Yeah, well, I think what you're opinion about that is stupid and/or wrong."

"Yeah, well, I have a right to say that I think something is stupid and/or wrong!"

"Oh yeah, well so did i! I have a right to think you're stupid and/or wrong for saying that statement!"

"Hey now, by criticizing me for saying that, you're trying to suppress my free speech rights!"

"No YOU are the one who is trying to limit MY freedom of speech by telling me that I can't call you a dumbass for saying what you said!!"

"No, I don't have a problem with you saying that. YOU are the one who has a problem with ME saying my thoughts on this issue!!"

"Clearly it's the other way around because I'm just saying that you're a dumbass and you're wrong, but apparently I'm not allowed to express myself!!"

And on and on and on it goes ad nauseum. I started posting on this board back in fucking 2003 or 2004 I think, some time back in the pre-WT/bleedthrough era, and it's the same argument over and over, like we're stuck in a timeloop. To be fair, this isn't exactly a ETS issue, but more like an internet-wide thing. But still, the thing that's kind of annoying about this pattern is that it derails the discussion. So we can't talk about the actual topic at hand, which might be fun or interesting or informative; instead we have to have yet another futile free speech debate for the seven millionth time.

And so, on that note: I, as ETS Minister of Public Discourse, hereby declare all free-speech meta-debates to be BANNED and anyone who engages in them will be sentenced to 8 years of hard labor. Proceed.

I think this particular thing is stupid and/or wrong.

[loopcloses]

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ack-ncna904976

http://restorativejustice.org/restor...minal-justice/

That NBC article is a terrific read and I think why I may come across as being "lighter" on CK than I ought to be is because after all this time I do really believe he must have both the intellect and empathy to do what the article suggests, and I still expect it. I just wish he'd stop disappointing me.

[playwithfire]

Let’s be realistic. How do you make that work and enforce it?

I'm not super sure what you mean, the NBC article especially (which, sidenote, I've already posted both of those in this thread already, those were both reposts) is pretty clear? Where are you finding it unrealistic and what is prompting the "enforcing" part of it for you?

[tremolo]

I'm not super sure what you mean, the NBC article especially (which, sidenote, I've already posted both of those in this thread already, those were both reposts) is pretty clear? Where are you finding it unrealistic and what is prompting the "enforcing" part of it for you?

What I am talking about is that this should be a legal issue, because it would have to be regulated.

How were the victims careers damaged? To what extents? Are there any other factors that this damage could be attributed to?

I do agree that disappearing from the spotlight is nothing but damage control for himself and does nothing for the victims. But that’s on him. My point is that he cannot be forced into doing the things pointed out in that NBC article (some of which I find absurd), and that at the end of the day, since there is no enforced restorative justice, he doesn’t have to do it, and the only repercusions on him would be just another stain on his curriculum.

I don’t know what he has been doing about it. I have no idea if he has done anything for his victims or if he anonimously donates to women’s shelters... I don’t have a clue. He COULD do it. SHOULD he do it? That’s not up to me.

[playwithfire]

I don't think restorative justice is going to become a part of our legal system anytime soon. Nice idea, highly unlikely. That doesn't diminish its utility or value. Nor does it prevent wider societal adoption if we make a point of talking about it and sharing it.

Re: career damage -- Are you not reading the multitude of articles that have come out about this that directly quote people? I'm not going to take the time to detail the effects this has had on people's careers when they themselves have talked about it and the information is out there for you to read. It's also worth acknowledging the general expectation of "If I pursue a career here, this will happen, and no one will listen" stigma that influences people to step back (though this happens in basically every industry).

Enforced restorative justice wouldn't even be that effective because a huge part of it is rehabilitation and people wanting to make things right. Fwiw I haven't seen anyone he did this shit with expressing that he's done more beyond very half-assed (see the NYT article) apologies as damage control.

[tremolo]

I don't think restorative justice is going to become a part of our legal system anytime soon. Nice idea, highly unlikely. That doesn't diminish its utility or value. Nor does it prevent wider societal adoption if we make a point of talking about it and sharing it.

Re: career damage -- Are you not reading the multitude of articles that have come out about this that directly quote people? I'm not going to take the time to detail the effects this has had on people's careers when they themselves have talked about it and the information is out there for you to read. It's also worth acknowledging the general expectation of "If I pursue a career here, this will happen, and no one will listen" stigma that influences people to step back (though this happens in basically every industry).

Enforced restorative justice wouldn't even be that effective because a huge part of it is rehabilitation and people wanting to make things right. Fwiw I haven't seen anyone he did this shit with expressing that he's done more beyond very half-assed (see the NYT article) apologies as damage control.

In all honesty, I have not read much about the whole thing, I don’t know all the details. All I know is CK jerked off in front of some women.

If restorative justice will be about what the abuser should do, i think it’s something that should be arranged between the abuser and the victims, because only they know how this really affected them... not some blogger or journalist.

The problem I have with the whole helping them with their careers is that there is no way to know “what could have been”, specially in the entertainment business, where everyone getting in has dreams of making it big, and VERY few end up making it. “Helping them become known for their work” seems odd considering there is no way of knowing how far these people would have made it by themselves if they had never had such encounters with CK.

But yeah, I think that when you fuck up, what matters most is what you do after... make amends, fix the mess you made. Just saying “I’m sorry” and hiding for a couple of months doesn’t do anything, it’s too easy and shows a lack of integrity.

[playwithfire]

Actions don't occur in a vacuum though, yeah? Public accountability is often a part of restorative justice. I also think it's more about the damage that has been done to the careers by him and working to undo that. Entertainment is a wildly uncertain industry but I don't think it's an unreasonable suggestion within the context of the harm he caused. It may not even be wanted, but it's a reasonable suggestion imo.

[playwithfire]

Really good piece about the myth of uncontrollable male desire: https://www.vox.com/2018/9/12/178432...-farrow-me-too

[tremolo]

Actions don't occur in a vacuum though, yeah? Public accountability is often a part of restorative justice. I also think it's more about the damage that has been done to the careers by him and working to undo that. Entertainment is a wildly uncertain industry but I don't think it's an unreasonable suggestion within the context of the harm he caused. It may not even be wanted, but it's a reasonable suggestion imo.

I get your point, but I think that only the victims know how they were (and still are) negatively affected by the actions of the abuser, so only they know what kind of measures would be fair. So, while I agree that restorative justice should be a part of what the abuser has to do to make amends and to make up for his mistakes, what a journalist or blogger thinks is not relevant. Now, if that NBC article was written by the victims, I would really consider it more important, but since it was written by a random third individual, I consider it just noise.

[playwithfire]

Well, in CK's case people impacted have definitely like... mentioned that he hasn't done shit. But yes, in a world where RJ was actually normalized it would generally be more (but not wholly, imo) between the people impacted by the abuser's actions -- but like, there are additional questions of privacy there, yeah? Like, I think it would be reasonable for people to be warned about CK's behavior when there is a chain of events. I don't think the narrative of "you don't know what they've done to make things better" is helpful because a HUGE aspect of how we handle this stuff is about how we do it as a society and that component is deeply important and impactful.

But shit like CK presents us with opportunities to discuss this and push for its normalization (which Lux, the author of the NBC article, is huge on) -- she was also on the Comedy Cellar's podcast last week and did a great job holding her own through the portion of it I made it through (I couldn't sit through the whole thing because it was just tiring and A Lot... it was like an hour and a half long and most of the panel had views on sexual assault that they should have grown out of in their early twenties at the latest)

[Demogorgon]

This situation just keeps getting worse and worse: http://fortune.com/2018/09/17/asia-a...-rose-mcgowan/

[WorzelG]

This article was a really good read, so true! Personally I wish the conversation about me too was more focussed on education - better sex education in schools that actually focus on issues of consent etc. I was talking to my husband about this and he said his sex education was watching footage of lots of kids jumping into a swimming pool representing sperm and they were all just wtf?
Although I disagree with the idea of Rose bloody McGowan being a poster child for it. It’s really annoying how it’s now seen as a white female Hollywood actress thing just bitter about a failing career and the black women coming out against R Kelly for example have been ignored
https://single-mumsurvival.com/2018/...acon-sandwich/

[theimage13]

Hoooooooo boy, the right is going to (deservedly) have a field day with this.

Google staff discussed tweaking search results to counter travel ban

[elevenism]

This one breaks my heart. An independent investigation by the NBA has uncovered 20 years of sexual misconduct within the Dallas Mavericks organization.

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/9/20/1...gation-results

I can't say I didn't see it coming though.
I was once at an AA speaker meeting in dallas (where one person speaks from the podium) and this just GORGEOUS, well to do woman told her story. It was about how fucked up HER life was before recovery and she wasn't blaming anyone, but her story involved drugs and being on the receiving end of sexual misconduct while dating someone who was one of the top members of the Dallas Mavericks organization.

I ABSOLUTELY believed her: every fucking word. She talked about the boyfriend eventually insisting on sharing her with other Mavs top brass and the whole shitshow being fueled by cocaine.

I was staying at a halfway house type thing, and, you know, this wasn't an accusation; that's not what it was about at all. She was speaking to a small group of homeless hopeless alchoholics, not the media, and refused to name names or blame anyone but herself (Edit: if this sounds fucked up, well, aa is kind of fucked up in that way: everything is YOUR FAULT somehow.) And why in the world would an INSANELY classy uptown woman expose these things about herself if they weren't true? (I mean, she agreed to the sharing, for instance. Why publicly humiliate herself like that if she was lying?)

And this was when the Mavs had just won the championship.
I pretty much unintentionally pushed it out of my mind because, if you slice me, I bleed throwback Mavs blue and green.

I just hope to GOD the players were oblivious, as Dirk Nowitzki is my ONLY hero.

[sweeterthan]

Sex offender defending sex offender. This shit makes my blood boil.

the epitome of rape culture is president.

[tremolo]

This one breaks my heart. An independent investigation by the NBA has uncovered 20 years of sexual misconduct within the Dallas Mavericks organization.

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/9/20/1...gation-results

I can't say I didn't see it coming though.
I was once at an AA speaker meeting in dallas (where one person speaks from the podium) and this just GORGEOUS, well to do woman told her story. It was about how fucked up HER life was before recovery and she wasn't blaming anyone, but her story involved drugs and being on the receiving end of sexual misconduct while dating someone who was one of the top members of the Dallas Mavericks organization.

I ABSOLUTELY believed her: every fucking word. She talked about the boyfriend eventually insisting on sharing her with other Mavs top brass and the whole shitshow being fueled by cocaine.

I was staying at a halfway house type thing, and, you know, this wasn't an accusation; that's not what it was about at all. She was speaking to a small group of homeless hopeless alchoholics, not the media, and refused to name names or blame anyone but herself (Edit: if this sounds fucked up, well, aa is kind of fucked up in that way: everything is YOUR FAULT somehow.) And why in the world would an INSANELY classy uptown woman expose these things about herself if they weren't true? (I mean, she agreed to the sharing, for instance. Why publicly humiliate herself like that if she was lying?)

And this was when the Mavs had just won the championship.
I pretty much unintentionally pushed it out of my mind because, if you slice me, I bleed throwback Mavs blue and green.

I just hope to GOD the players were oblivious, as Dirk Nowitzki is my ONLY hero.

The whole thing with AA, more than “it’s your own fault” is about “it’s your own responsibility”.

Addicts tend to surround themselves with enablers, people who will agree with them, pat them on the back saying “it’s not you, it’s everything/anything around you”, taking away the drive to CHANGE their own fucked up behaviour. Without that, there is no room for improvement.

I do believe that the origins of addiction are in people’s childhoods/formative years or external circumstances that push them into addiction and (self)destructive behavioural patterns (this depends on whether the object of their issues is themselves or others). Of course it’s not your fault you had shitty parents or a terrible childhood, but that should not become an excuse to justify hurting yourself or others. Otherwise it would become acceptable for abusers to use it as a valid justification for destroying other people’s lives.

[elevenism]

The whole thing with AA, more than “it’s your own fault” is about “it’s your own responsibility”.

Addicts tend to surround themselves with enablers, people who will agree with them, pat them on the back saying “it’s not you, it’s everything/anything around you”, taking away the drive to CHANGE their own fucked up behaviour. Without that, there is no room for improvement.

I do believe that the origins of addiction are in people’s childhoods/formative years or external circumstances that push them into addiction and (self)destructive behavioural patterns (this depends on whether the object of their issues is themselves or others). Of course it’s not your fault you had shitty parents or a terrible childhood, but that should not become an excuse to justify hurting yourself or others. Otherwise it would become acceptable for abusers to use it as a valid justification for destroying other people’s lives.

yeah yeah, I'm aware. I've just seen the philosophy twisted into some uncomfortable places with regard to the topic at hand and wanted to clarify that I wasn't blaming this woman.

[tremolo]

yeah yeah, I'm aware. I've just seen the philosophy twisted into some uncomfortable places with regard to the topic at hand and wanted to clarify that I wasn't blaming this woman.

That’s a very touchy area that has got me in trouble here. It’s important to make the distinction between responsibility and fault. I guess the first has to do with the facts and actions leading up to something (sexual abuse in this topic), and the second is just blaming a victim for the behaviour of the abuser.

It’s never one’s fault for getting raped, being molested or sexually assaulted. But it is one’s responsibility to assess situations of danger to avoid being in that awful spot.

[elevenism]

That’s a very touchy area that has got me in trouble here. It’s important to make the distinction between responsibility and fault. I guess the first has to do with the facts and actions leading up to something (sexual abuse in this topic), and the second is just blaming a victim for the behaviour of the abuser.

It’s never one’s fault for getting raped, being molested or sexually assaulted. But it is one’s responsibility to assess situations of danger to avoid being in that awful spot.

I feel you. It can be tricky.

[october_midnight]

Bill Cosby officially sentenced to prison.

[Volband]

https://twitter.com/tariqnasheed/sta...58235997806592

Wtf is this

[Frozen Beach]

Tariq Nasheed is an attention seeker. He says all kinds of crazy crap for attention.

[Frozen Beach]

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/09/drummer-of-sigur-ros-accused-of-sexual-assault.html