Sexual Abuse/Assault in the News

[tremolo]

The whole public apology, public displays of regret, etc are just white noise.

Maybe those guys are already doing something about it and not making a big public deal out of it. Maybe they are anonymously donating to some women’s charity –the easy way–, or maybe they offered a real apology and addressed the issue with the victims (what should really matter).

This whole hyperconectivity-internet-social media thingy has too many people convinced they are a part of this and that they are entitled to witness every part of the mediatic show, as if it was reality tv or an episode of jerry springer.

These guys did something wrong, they should resolve the issue with the victims, it’s a problem between them. The fact that the accusations were made in public doesn’t entitle anyone to demand a public show for everyone to see. People making any kind of demands like that (excluding the victims) should know they are the jury of nothing.

Personally i don’t care for CK, his comedy is puerile, and it bores me to death, and i don’t care about the guy, he’s not in my circle of family or friends. But he and any of the accused should have the right to make a living.

[tremolo]

Two Women Describe Louis C.K.’s ‘Uncomfortable’ Comedy Cellar Set

It’s funny how people who get easily offended like to go to comedy clubs... it’s all fun and laughter until the subject is too close to home, then it’s not a joke anymore... it’s a statement.

And honestly, who gives a fuck about how one or 2 audience members feel about the show?

[playwithfire]

So here's an excellent piece outlining how Louis CK and people like him can address making amends and owning their mistakes in a way that is actually constructive: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ack-ncna904976

[perceptionnexus]

It’s funny how people who get easily offended like to go to comedy clubs... it’s all fun and laughter until the subject is too close to home, then it’s not a joke anymore... it’s a statement.

And honestly, who gives a fuck about how one or 2 audience members feel about the show?

That's what I'm saying. All this media bullshit about him making a rape joke is so unnecessary.

[eversonpoe]

and here's an excellent piece about how Louis CK in particular has failed to learn anything

the most relevant section:

[playwithfire]

And to the rest of the responses re: blocked from leaving

Firstly, what the fuck, y'all. Is whether he blocked people from leaving that important to you in the context of him exposing himself to colleagues and jerking off? Like, is the blocking-from-leaving what makes you consider it sexual harassment and predatory? Not the jerking off in front of colleagues part? Or the lying? Or the chain of behavior? Or all the other shit?

Fwiw the "blocking the door" thing came from Gawker, and is a version of the story told in the NYT article by Goodman & Wolov. Maybe it is hearsay. The rest of the story is repeated elsewhere. What CK did in other instances was still illegal, and still predatory, and still wrong.

Also @perceptionnexus you're sealioning. Google it if you want, or don't.

Also "who gives a fuck what 2 women think" a lot of people apparently? Including y'all? Why don't you just not read the article?

[perceptionnexus]

The whole public apology, public displays of regret, etc are just white noise.

Maybe those guys are already doing something about it and not making a big public deal out of it. Maybe they are anonymously donating to some women’s charity –the easy way–, or maybe they offered a real apology and addressed the issue with the victims (what should really matter).

This whole hyperconectivity-internet-social media thingy has too many people convinced they are a part of this and that they are entitled to witness every part of the mediatic show, as if it was reality tv or an episode of jerry springer.

These guys did something wrong, they should resolve the issue with the victims, it’s a problem between them. The fact that the accusations were made in public doesn’t entitle anyone to demand a public show for everyone to see. People making any kind of demands like that (excluding the victims) should know they are the jury of nothing.

Personally i don’t care for CK, his comedy is puerile, and it bores me to death, and i don’t care about the guy, he’s not in my circle of family or friends. But he and any of the accused should have the right to make a living.

And I think the disconnect with such a hyper-connected society is that the subjective experience becomes so diminished. I think c.k. made an oopsie in his decision to jerk off, but based on what I've read I wouldn't classify these women as "victims" in the normal sense of the word. This is probably because in my line of work in mental health, part of that involves working closely in therapy with a lot of native american women, and white women too to a lesser degree, around here who have experienced a lot of instances of rape on their home reservations. There's never been a lot of mainstream media attention championing their cause, so in comparison, two women laughing at a middle-aged comic masturbating, and then walking out the door after he cums on himself.......to see the media herald these types as legitimate victims comes across as trite and, frankly, kind of insulting to those types of clients I work with that have had those traumatic experiences. Because of that, I have a real hard time taking some of these #metoo stories as of having real importance.

[playwithfire]

I'm surprised, especially if you work in mental health, that you don't acknowledge that trauma happens on a spectrum and so does predation. No reasonable person is equivocating what CK did to rape and you are singling out one of many instances of predatory, sexually harassing behavior from him and dismissing that this was a pattern of behavior, and the lying, and the abuse of power.

Also "MADE AN OOPSIE"

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[perceptionnexus]

And to the rest of the responses re: blocked from leaving

Firstly, what the fuck, y'all. Is whether he blocked people from leaving that important to you in the context of him exposing himself to colleagues and jerking off? Like, is the blocking-from-leaving what makes you consider it sexual harassment and predatory? Not the jerking off in front of colleagues part? Or the lying? Or the chain of behavior? Or all the other shit?

Fwiw the "blocking the door" thing came from Gawker, and is a version of the story told in the NYT article by Goodman & Wolov. Maybe it is hearsay. The rest of the story is repeated elsewhere. What CK did in other instances was still illegal, and still predatory, and still wrong.

Also @perceptionnexus you're sealioning. Google it if you want, or don't.

Also "who gives a fuck what 2 women think" a lot of people apparently? Including y'all? Why don't you just not read the article?

It absolutely matters in terms of how he is portrayed in the media. I agree with what @loopcloses said, it's the difference between the actions of a pathetic weirdo and a sexual predator. Peoples' livelihoods end up being at stake with this shit.

I don't believe in the term "sealioning". If you're going to make a claim, be able to back it the fuck up.

[playwithfire]

Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, it's a term, you're doing it.

it's the difference between the actions of a pathetic weirdo and a sexual predator

I thought loopcloses made a good point with their post but that part of it I emphatically disagree with because I'M SORRY, WHAT. Is sexual harassment being a pathetic weirdo now? If I work at a dairy queen and ask to jerk off in the back in front of a junior hire is that just weird? Should I get to keep my job? I can come back after a year right?

[perceptionnexus]

I'm surprised, especially if you work in mental health, that you don't acknowledge that trauma happens on a spectrum and so does predation. No reasonable person is equivocating what CK did to rape and you are singling out one of many instances of predatory, sexually harassing behavior from him and dismissing that this was a pattern of behavior, and the lying, and the abuse of power.

Also "MADE AN OOPSIE"

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I didn't say that they weren't experiencing trauma, I said that I have a hard time seeing some of these accusers as being victims based on their claims, and the consequential media portrayal of them. And in regards to that media portrayal of CK based on what happened, I would definitely argue that there are instances when they are equating him to a rapist.

[tremolo]

And I think the disconnect with such a hyper-connected society is that the subjective experience becomes so diminished. I think c.k. made an oopsie in his decision to jerk off, but based on what I've read I wouldn't classify these women as "victims" in the normal sense of the word. This is probably because in my line of work in mental health, part of that involves working closely in therapy with a lot of native american women, and white women too to a lesser degree, around here who have experienced a lot of instances of rape on their home reservations. There's never been a lot of mainstream media attention championing their cause, so in comparison, two women laughing at a middle-aged comic masturbating, and then walking out the door after he cums on himself.......to see the media herald these types as legitimate victims comes across as trite and, frankly, kind of insulting to those types of clients I work with that have had those traumatic experiences. Because of that, I have a real hard time taking some of these #metoo stories as of having real importance.

I think CK fucked up. I don’t know if it qualifies as harrasment, sexual misconduct, or what since I don’t know the whole legality of the issue. But he fucked up good, and those he exposed himself to are victims, and they might be traumatized by their experience, and they are entitled to their pain and anger if you will. And they deserve a sincere apology and whatever else to make up for the damage caused by CK.

Sure, it doesn’t seem as bad as an actual rape, but we have no idea how it affected the victims. While some might be able to shake it off just like that, others might find themselves having anxiety attacks anytime they are alone in an eclosed space with a man... who knows.

[tremolo]

Also "who gives a fuck what 2 women think" a lot of people apparently? Including y'all? Why don't you just not read the article?

Don’t include me in your “y’all”. I didn’t read the article, just the quote the user copied/pasted in his post.

And yeah, nobody really cares, it’s comedy. We all have a voice, and the internet/social media has made a lot of y’all believe that everyone cares what you think. 2 audience members/bloggers out of how many?

It doesn’t matter how you try to put it, it’s absolutely irrelevant to anyone other than themselves, just like my posts here and yours.

[playwithfire]

Fwiw I wanted (want? I dunno what's fixable at this point) CK to handle this better. I hoped he could show growth. Because it gets lost: I believe very deeply in restorative justice. I think violating people's consent is a pretty common behavior that people are guilty of and that teaching rehabilitation and how to move on from it is so so so important. The idea that this shit is something only done by "bad people" is something I view as a dangerous line of thinking. Dude has also been one of my all time favorite comedians. But like... man he has fucked up at this.

[perceptionnexus]

Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, it's a term, you're doing it.




I thought loopcloses made a good point with their post but that part of it I emphatically disagree with because I'M SORRY, WHAT. Is sexual harassment being a pathetic weirdo now? If I work at a dairy queen and ask to jerk off in the back in front of a junior hire is that just weird? Should I get to keep my job? I can come back after a year right?

Well it definitely is a term, doesn't mean it's a real thing. If you have the kind of principles where you truly feel like you can call assert yourself as a "sealioning" victim, and try and use that as a valid reason for not providing evidence to a claim, then I personally have no interest in pursuing any sort of rational dialogue with you.

And as far as you wanting to get your job back at DQ, that's entirely up to your employer. Just like CK's future work will be dependent on people willing to sign contracts with him. That's one of the really cool things about living in the usa.

[playwithfire]

Pssh, where have I failed to show evidence. I'm not going to do your googling for you or parse an article because you don't want to read a link, but that's not really why I think you're sealioning. It's all the sealioning you're doing that makes me think you're sealioning.

Yes. At will employment exists. So do general concepts of decency, social conventions, etc, whether you agree with them or not. Since I think you missed the point of that example: If I was jerking off in front of non-consenting coworkers at DQ, or say, if I was a well-established engineer pulling that shit with another less-established engineer at a conference, that would be very obviously sexual harassment -- just because it's the entertainment industry that doesn't mean it's "an oopsie"

[loopcloses]

Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not, it's a term, you're doing it.




I thought loopcloses made a good point with their post but that part of it I emphatically disagree with because I'M SORRY, WHAT. Is sexual harassment being a pathetic weirdo now? If I work at a dairy queen and ask to jerk off in the back in front of a junior hire is that just weird? Should I get to keep my job? I can come back after a year right?

"Pathetic weirdo" may have come across more lightly than I intended, but I meant it as a strong condemnation. Jerking off in front of strangers isn't just "kinda weird", it's absolutely sexual harassment and is the sort of thing one should be punished for with loss of employment, fines, perhaps court-ordered therapy, etc. I just don't feel it necessaroly indicates "predatory" behavior, at least in the way I think of a "predator".

When I think of a predator, I think of someone who preys on women, who gets off on the power it makes them feel. When i recall the stories about Louis, especially in the context of everything that's publicly known about him, it's more... like he considered himself on the opposite end of the power dynamic. He wasn't getting off on hurting them, he was getting off on his weird fetish that he idiotically convinced himself wasn't a big deal. If he saw these women as "prey", I can't help but feel that he would've done things very differently, and that the behavior would worsen when he got famous instead of (apparently) ceasing.

Now, my idea isn't to paint him as sympathetic, just as a person with mental health problems rather than somebody who's evil. And typing it out, I do respect that from the perspective of a woman who's been assaulted, it doesn't really matter even a little bit whether the assailant has the psychology of a predator. This is messy shit and I'll probably have an opinion that seems dumb here and there.

Honestly, and I understand why she hasn't, as she probably needs to distance herself professionally with her career as a creator taking off, but I'm most interested in what Pamela Adlon thinks, more so than I want to hear what even Louis himself has to say. She's both a very intelligent, gifted feminist and someone who is deeply familiar with CK from 15 years of closely working with him. She's probably got the most informed opinion on the matter of anyone, and if she can't forgive Louis it's hard to imagine anyone else should.

[Sarah K]

Please stop referring his actions as a "fetish". Engaging in fetishes requires consent from all parties.

[eversonpoe]

I think CK fucked up. I don’t know if it qualifies as harrasment, sexual misconduct, or what since I don’t know the whole legality of the issue. But he fucked up good, and those he exposed himself to are victims, and they might be traumatized by their experience, and they are entitled to their pain and anger if you will. And they deserve a sincere apology and whatever else to make up for the damage caused by CK.

Sure, it doesn’t seem as bad as an actual rape, but we have no idea how it affected the victims. While some might be able to shake it off just like that, others might find themselves having anxiety attacks anytime they are alone in an eclosed space with a man... who knows.

how do you follow up this eloquent and informed post ^^^ with this garbage below? it's like you're two different people.

Don’t include me in your “y’all”. I didn’t read the article, just the quote the user copied/pasted in his post.

And yeah, nobody really cares, it’s comedy. We all have a voice, and the internet/social media has made a lot of y’all believe that everyone cares what you think. 2 audience members/bloggers out of how many?

It doesn’t matter how you try to put it, it’s absolutely irrelevant to anyone other than themselves, just like my posts here and yours.

[tremolo]

Please stop referring his actions as a "fetish". Engaging in fetishes requires consent from all parties.

Not necessarily. A fetish is a fixation, and it has nothing to do with how it is approached. Consent has nothing to do with it.

[tremolo]

how do you follow up this eloquent and informed post ^^^ with this garbage below? it's like you're two different people.

Oh my god, i agree with what you posted, you are so eloquent... but this stuff over here... i do’t agree with you at all, it’s garbage...


You are a funny one.

[playwithfire]

Goodman & Wolov called out the owner of the Comedy Cellar on twitter and repeated their story, worth reading. https://twitter.com/DanaAndJulia/sta...18566575386625

Also a good piece by Corry from earlier in the year. They're pretty clearly unhappy with CK.

[eversonpoe]

Oh my god, i agree with what you posted, you are so eloquent... but this stuff over here... i do’t agree with you at all, it’s garbage...


You are a funny one.

there's a difference between agreeing or disagreeing with something you've said, and the fact that one of your posts was actually well-informed and well-thought-out, whereas the other one was you talking out your ass and being an ass.

[tremolo]

there's a difference between agreeing or disagreeing with something you've said, and the fact that one of your posts was actually well-informed and well-thought-out, whereas the other one was you talking out your ass and being an ass.

Cause it doesn’t follow the same line as your thoughts/ideas... i’m telling you, you’re a funny one.

Also, I was talking about how social media has twisted public perception and sense of entitlement. Maybe you somehow understood that it was something against women expressing their opinions? Well, that’s not what I meant, but I understand how it can lead to confusion.

It would be interesting if you elaborated a bit on it so we could have a constructive conversation, instead of calling it garbage, or talking out of my ass and being an ass.

I don’t really get the approach of insulting other people just because you don’t agree with what they are saying. No harm taken though, but that kind of attitude only alienates people and generates an antagonist reaction. If your goal is that people will listen to you and eventually “open their eyes” that’s not the way to go.

[eversonpoe]

Cause it doesn’t follow the same line as your thoughts/ideas... i’m telling you, you’re a funny one.

Also, I was talking about how social media has twisted public perception and sense of entitlement. Maybe you somehow understood that it was something against women expressing their opinions? Well, that’s not what I meant, but I understand how it can lead to confusion.

It would be interesting if you elaborated a bit on it so we could have a constructive conversation, instead of calling it garbage, or talking out of my ass and being an ass.

I don’t really get the approach of insulting other people just because you don’t agree with what they are saying. No harm taken though, but that kind of attitude only alienates people and generates an antagonist reaction. If your goal is that people will listen to you and eventually “open their eyes” that’s not the way to go.

i find your attitude toward most of this subject matter to be misogynistic, most of what you've said has an undertone of victim-blaming, and you're fighting on a weird side of this battle.

why is it bad for people to be considerate of others? why is it a problem to consider how one's actions affect those around them? two women were made uncomfortable by a surprise louis ck performance in which he made a tone-deaf rape joke. just because everyone else laughed it off doesn't mean it's not an issue, it just means those other people aren't taking issue with it. everyone has a different threshold for being uncomfortable, for triggers related to their trauma. just because one sexual assault survivor thinks it's "no big deal" doesn't mean we all feel that way, and it doesn't make it ok to just dismiss our feelings on it.

the me too movement was supposed to usher in a wave of change, and lead to constructive conversations, but it seems to have made rape apologists strengthen their resolve.

i'm not being as well-spoken as i'd like to be because my brain feels broken this morning, but basically my point boils down to the first thing i said in this post: why is it bad for people to be considerate of others? it really doesn't take much effort. whether it's obtaining consent for a sexual encounter, or simply trying not to upset someone with whom you're having a conversation, why do people make such a big deal out of it? when did having a complete lack of empathy for others become cool?

[loopcloses]

Please stop referring his actions as a "fetish". Engaging in fetishes requires consent from all parties.

I wouldn't refer to his actions as a fetish, just that he was acting on a fetish without consent. Which is sexual assault, just one inspired by a fetish. I'm not trying to minimize what he did, or defend him, or make any sort of argument for anything, I'm just trying to have a conversation. I didn't say he didn't block them in to try and defend him, I said it because the story the women told included nothing about it.

This isn't directed at any one person, but: I understand why many here don't have patience when it comes to this sort of thing, because there's a shit load of stupidity and ignorance displayed online and in this very thread, but can't we be nice? Unless the goal is to exterminate all people with internalized misogyny, or inversely anyone who has strong opinions about sexual assault, what is gained by being hostile? I imagine most of the people here fancy themselves open-minded. Wouldn't it behoove us to approach these discussions with the mindset that there's something we can learn? The better you can understand someone's viewpoint, the better you're able to convince them it's misguided. And I acknowledge that my viewpoints are likely misguided in some way or another, and I like having these discussions with people who have adjacent but different viewpoints so I can correct my own if needed. If when someone says something dumb and your response is to bicker about it, all you get is more pissed off and while there are many arenas in which anger is a tool for great change, the internet sure as shit isn't one of them.

Tldr: hippie pacifist bullshit, the Golden rule, let's be friendly because if not than why the fuck are we here?

[sinspots]

the Golden rule

Seeing as the topic of this thread involves sex, I feel it's not entirely off topic for me to say, whenever I hear this phrase all I think about is the SNL Golden Rule skit (and thank you now the song is playing in my head!). Was never by any means a Timberlake fan but he is rather likable in that skit and even Lady Gaga isn't so bad (she's pretty funny in it)!

[tremolo]

i find your attitude toward most of this subject matter to be misogynistic, most of what you've said has an undertone of victim-blaming, and you're fighting on a weird side of this battle.

why is it bad for people to be considerate of others? why is it a problem to consider how one's actions affect those around them? two women were made uncomfortable by a surprise louis ck performance in which he made a tone-deaf rape joke. just because everyone else laughed it off doesn't mean it's not an issue, it just means those other people aren't taking issue with it. everyone has a different threshold for being uncomfortable, for triggers related to their trauma. just because one sexual assault survivor thinks it's "no big deal" doesn't mean we all feel that way, and it doesn't make it ok to just dismiss our feelings on it.

the me too movement was supposed to usher in a wave of change, and lead to constructive conversations, but it seems to have made rape apologists strengthen their resolve.

i'm not being as well-spoken as i'd like to be because my brain feels broken this morning, but basically my point boils down to the first thing i said in this post: why is it bad for people to be considerate of others? it really doesn't take much effort. whether it's obtaining consent for a sexual encounter, or simply trying not to upset someone with whom you're having a conversation, why do people make such a big deal out of it? when did having a complete lack of empathy for others become cool?

I was going to bother, but then i thought it would be a waste of time.

You don’t know me, but you have already made your mind about me... misogyny, victim-blaming... even though it couldn’t be further from the truth.

To me it seems like you don’t really care, you are just waiting for confirmation on what you already think of others so you can start insulting and talking shit to anyone who doesn’t line up 100% with your views.

What I find funny is that your combative attitude doesn’t do anything to help change people’s minds, in fact it has the opposite effect. Bashing others (without a solid argument, just insulting) will never make them go “oh, hold on, let me pay attention to what you are saying”, what you actually generate is a reaction towards your own inability to have a productive and fruitful conversation.

And you crown that nasty attitude saying “... why is it bad for people to be considerate of others?...”

Yeah, it’s funny.

[eversonpoe]

I was going to bother, but then i thought it would be a waste of time.

You don’t know me, but you have already made your mind about me... misogyny, victim-blaming... even though it couldn’t be further from the truth.

To me it seems like you don’t really care, you are just waiting for confirmation on what you already think of others so you can start insulting and talking shit to anyone who doesn’t line up 100% with your views.

What I find funny is that your combative attitude doesn’t do anything to help change people’s minds, in fact it has the opposite effect. Bashing others (without a solid argument, just insulting) will never make them go “oh, hold on, let me pay attention to what you are saying”, what you actually generate is a reaction towards your own inability to have a productive and fruitful conversation.

And you crown that nasty attitude saying “... why is it bad for people to be considerate of others?...”

Yeah, it’s funny.

you're right, i don't know you. i'm basing what i said about you on the behavior you've exhibited in this thread. so you're telling me i'm wrong, but you have done nothing to show that i'm wrong. you've only written posts that back up what i said.

how is it having a nasty attitude to ask why it's bad for people to be considerate of others? that's feeling desperate and wanting others to be kind to the people around them. you are interpreting tone that's simply not present in what i'm saying.

[Jinsai]

When I first heard about the CK allegations, part of me immediately seemed to disbelieve it, and I found myself awkwardly forcing myself to consider that it was true. I don't know why, it's not even entirely a "fan thing." It just seemed so hard to believe that someone who could be so articulate and familiar with the topics he brought into his work, especially regarding the failures of morality and the human condition, could do something so pathetic and shitty.

And even then, that was before I looked deeper into the specifics of the allegations. The more I looked at it, the more terms like "pathetic" and "shitty" failed to really accurately describe it.

It's all really fucked up, and it's definitely not OK for him to be trying out new stand up material. It's incredible to see how far and fast he fell though. Prior to the allegations coming to light, he was pretty much the biggest stand up comedian in the world. On his last tour he was playing the Forum here in LA. That's insane.