Don't be a shithead in threads about sexual assault.

[cashpiles (closed)]

I'll try to keep this brief, both because I don't feel like typing out a big long thing right now (it's late and I'm tired) but also because I don't feel like going through every part of this awful experience again in detail.

I was sexually assaulted at a transgender support group a couple of months ago. I reported the assault to the president of the organization (who also happens to be the leader of the group, it's a small outfit) and she told me she would let the board know and get back to me. A month later I still hadn't heard anything. I found out that the person who assaulted me was not kicked out of the group. I wrote said president (who, once upon a time not that long ago, was an actual friend) and told her how shitty I thought it was that someone can commit sexual assault and still be welcomed back into the group.

She didn't like my harsh words. An argument ensued. It was nasty. She told me that what happened to me wasn't really sexual assault (because there was no malice involved, and apparently in her mind as long as the person didn't MEAN to hurt you it doesn't count, I guess), after which I seriously took off the gloves. She bristled at the idea that I called her out for perpetuating rape culture by trying to deny that an assault occurred, by trying to downplay my feelings as a victim, and she cursed me out. She went on to insult me for not being full time yet (which is, you know, lovely for the leader of a transgender support group to do), told me that I was a "bitch" who thought the world revolved around me, and even tried to imply that I was a racist for making a big deal out of this because the person who attacked me happened to be black (I hadn't ever mentioned race once our entire conversation, and it literally doesn't matter to me what their race is). She then tried to "talk some sense into me one last time" and tried to get me to understand where the person was coming from, that they didn't mean anything by it, that they were "trying to help." It was seriously disgusting.

I took screenshots of our entire conversation and sent it to the board. Not a single one of them ever e-mailed me back. The person who assaulted me is still in the group (to the best of my knowledge). The president manned the booth at a local LGBT festival this weekend, so she is still very much involved in the group. Apparently the people who head my support group are ok with sexual assault and have no problem with the way the president of the organization handled herself, at least not enough to kick either of them out.

It's been infuriating. I cannot tell you how much it hurt to have someone think it was ok to touch an intimate part of my body without consent. I cannot tell you how horrible it feels to have someone blatantly try to downplay what you went through, deny your assault, try to make you into a crazy person, try to get you to "sit down and have a talk" with the person that did it to hash things out. They actually wanted me to sit down with the person that assaulted me and have a nice cup of tea and chat. Are you fucking kidding me?!

Anyway, needless to say I will never, ever step foot in that group again. I told my therapist about it and she said she used to send clients there all the time, but would not be doing that anymore. So at least I have that. There were no other repercussions, though. The person who assaulted me got to stay. The president of the org got to stay. I got to leave.

Fuck this culture where shit like this is deemed ok. This was not ok. None of this is ok.

2 questions:

what exactly did the person do to you?

are you “white”? Because in social justice there is a hierarchy, and black people will always be seen as bigger victims than white people.

[botley]

Not for nothing, but when white people barge into these discussions with irrelevant and insulting questions, they earn a reputation for NOT positively contributing to the project of social justice in good faith.

[M1ke]

2 questions:

what exactly did the person do to you?

are you “white”? Because in social justice there is a hierarchy, and black people will always be seen as bigger victims than white people.

Be quiet, adults are talking.

[theruiner]

2 questions:

what exactly did the person do to you?

are you “white”? Because in social justice there is a hierarchy, and black people will always be seen as bigger victims than white people.

Please don't use my experience being sexually assaulted as an excuse to be a racist. Thx.

[sweeterthan]

2 questions:

what exactly did the person do to you?

are you “white”? Because in social justice there is a hierarchy, and black people will always be seen as bigger victims than white people.

I had to log in through the browser just so I could face palm your post. I would delete your post but it’s already been quoted by multiple users. Do not question posts in this thread.

[theimage13]

2 questions:

what exactly did the person do to you?

I don't feel like going through every part of this awful experience again in detail.

are you “white”? Because in social justice there is a hierarchy, and black people will always be seen as bigger victims than white people.

WHAT? The judicial system - both legal and cultural - in the United States has a race problem? Holy fucking shit, somebody call the president! Call the media! This is a startling revelation that I'm sure will be brand new information to everybody!

Not to pile on, but.....okay, I'm piling on. This kind of shit is not cool, and I feel the need to reiterate that.

edit: I just realized I read that wrong. Black people will be seen as bigger victims that white people? Holy shit, what planet do you live on?

[ltrandazzo]

Here's a nice warning for anyone who thinks about being a dick in confessional threads. Don't be like cashpiles. Don't do it.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Journalists are taught to use "alleged" to avoid being sued for libel. It's pretty much required, now, to avoid it. http://www.entcounsel.com/blog/defamation-and-libel

If you're not a journalist and you're using it in personal conversation or under an anon pseudo on a message board then, yeah, it's not necessary and not sending the right message.

innocent until proven guilty. If we stop valuing this axiom, our society is going to turn into mob justice.

[eversonpoe]

innocent until proven guilty. If we stop valuing this axiom, our society is going to turn into mob justice.

dude, stop coming into these threads and spewing your bullshit everywhere. you are contributing NOTHING to the conversation and you're really antagonizing those of us who aren't misogynistic dicks.

[M1ke]

innocent until proven guilty. If we stop valuing this axiom, our society is going to turn into mob justice.

We're talking about how we discuss sexual assaults, not changing how the criminal justice system works.

Also, if you read the article, they're suggesting that we say "the woman said the man raped her", instead of "the woman said the man allegedly raped her".

Both are factual statements, one casts unnecessary doubt on the woman's story. We need to stop doubting women and start believing them when they come forward with these statements if we ever want to change a culture that silences victims of rape.

[r_z]

Cashpiles kinda has a point tho. Because those allegations... they have the power to destroy a man's life, guilty or innocent. Once it's out there, it won't go away. So one has to be very very careful with what's being said and not jump to (possibly) premature conclusions. It's a dilemma, really, because you don't want to make a victims situation more difficult either.

[M1ke]

Cashpiles kinda has a point tho. Because those allegations... they have the power to destroy a man's life, guilty or innocent. Once it's out there, it won't go away. So one has to be very very careful with what's being said and not jump to (possibly) premature conclusions. It's a dilemma, really, because you don't want to make a victims situation more difficult either.

Why does this point only ever apply to men who commit sexual assault?

Breaking and entering, murder, fraud, accuse away, but not sexual assault. Why? Because there's a social construct here that's kept women oppressed for ages and too many men don't want to give that up. That's the answer.

[sweeterthan]

Classic. Read the article again. He doesn’t have a point. This is not the thread for you or cashpiles or anyone else to question someone’s experience.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ltrandazzo]

Oh good. I get to add more posts from @cashpiles .

Post your opinions here and stay out of the other thread.

[r_z]

I'm sorry when I came off as insensitive in my earlier post. English is not my first language, so I'm not as eloquent when speaking/typing and tend to keep my answers on this here board rather short. Let me clarify that I strongly support #metoo and the opportunity it gave to victims to come forward with their experiences.

I find it off putting tho how you guys tend to facepalm or move anything out of the way that's not even NOT your consent but rather voices another aspect on this matter. Especially in this case, as I've never acted as a troll or anything.

I've never questioned someone's experience. I just pointed out the dilemma between wanting to be there for people who speak out and the possibility of false accusations. Because unfortunately (where I'm from) stuff like that happened in the past and destroyed lifes. That's not me taking a side in this, albeit I can see why it may not be the right time to mention it. And therefore I apologise.

[botley]

Let me clarify that I strongly support #metoo and the opportunity it gave to victims to come forward with their experiences.

I find it off putting tho how you guys tend to facepalm or move anything out of the way that's not even NOT your consent but rather voices another aspect on this matter. Especially in this case, as I've never acted as a troll or anything.

Okay, but since your post was inappropriate, what example of "move anything out of the way" is at issue for you?

I understand there are exceptions but when false accusations are found in AT MOST 8% of sexual assaults reported to authorities (and keep in mind that this number is likely far larger than overall instances of false accusation, because we know sexual assault is vastly, horrendously under-reported to authorities) -- and many of those are actually the survivor reporting inaccurate information to PROTECT their partner that committed the crime from being incarcerated -- false reports are far from the concern it's always made out to be by someone in the crowd.

[r_z]

You know what ruins lives?

The passive attitude that we have when it comes to sexual assault, and how victims of those crimes are put on trial. You never see that happen with any other type of crime.

I'm with you on this. And never wanted to indicate otherwise.

media outlets following their lawyer’s advice and covering their own asses, EVEN IF THERE IS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE in a case, they just don’t want to risk lawsuits. It’s probably cowardly, it’s not in the interest of showing the truth, it’s just kowtowing to advertisers by avoiding controversy and lawsuits.

I agree that this is a big problem in our society - not just in the field of sexual allegations. I experience said covering at my job (in the school system) on a daily basis, too. And it's frustrating. It's got a lot to do with insurance companies and the experience that some people are actually willing to sue for the most absurd reasons. It's putting us in heavy chains in terms of engaging in extracurricular activities and excursions with our students.

my (quoted-by-cashpiles) post said NOTHING about the judicial system and innocent-until-proven-guilty stuff.

Yes! Here's what I got: I confused the demand for a removal of that judicial term with a demand for a removal of that judicial principle. And that CAN'T happen, I'm sure, you'll agree. So that was where I was coming from. Sorry for the mix up.

what example of "move anything out of the way" is at issue for you?

You know, I wouldn't post something if I thought of it as "inappropriate" before posting. I don't consider myself a know-it-all. So I'd rather engage in a discussion with you people on such a sensitive topic (like we just did) and not have my points moved to another thread and tag some facepalms as goodbyes without any explanation.

I understand there are exceptions but when false accusations are found in AT MOST 8% of sexual assaults reported to authorities (and keep in mind that this number is likely far larger than overall instances of false accusation, because we know sexual assault is vastly, horrendously under-reported to authorities) -- and many of those are actually the survivor reporting inaccurate information to PROTECT their partner that committed the crime from being incarcerated -- false reports are far from the concern it's always made out to be by someone in the crowd.

See, this is an interesting point that also exemplifies why I'm a bit at loss here. I believe those numbers. But I'm not so sure on how to read them, tbh. What is it that you are trying to say here? It certainly can't be that we should be casual about the possibility of false reports. Is it that we - on the ground of those numbers - should put our focus on people coming forward with their experiences of sexual harrassment rather than on the possibility that those might be false? I'm not really sure about that part of measuring those numbers against each other, tbh. That's why I used the word "dilemma" in my above posting.

I just - like anyone else - hope those people that disrespect and harass or rape others will be brought to justice. Which in many cases will be hard enough to do, unfortunately.

[botley]

What is it that you are trying to say here? It certainly can't be that we should be casual about the possibility of false reports. Is it that we - on the ground of those numbers - should put our focus on people coming forward with their experiences of sexual harrassment rather than on the possibility that those might be false? I'm not really sure about that part of measuring those numbers against each other, tbh. That's why I used the word "dilemma" in my above posting.

A 'dilemma' literally means having to choose between two interpretations of a situation with equally unfavourable alternatives (in this case, giving equal weight to "She said this about what he did to her" and "It might be a false incrimination"). This is NOT a dilemma, however, because in real life well over 92% of the cases where someone reports sexual assault, it's found NOT to be false; positing the two as equally valid interpretations of the facts at hand is a false dichotomy. So yes, the possibility of a false report is there, but it's remote and we can usually discard the 'cry wolf' fallacy because it so rarely happens.

[eversonpoe]

A 'dilemma' literally means having to choose between two interpretations of a situation with equally unfavourable alternatives (in this case, giving equal weight to "She said this about what he did to her" and "It might be a false incrimination"). This is NOT a dilemma, however, because in real life well over 92% of the cases where someone reports sexual assault, it's found NOT to be false; positing the two as equally valid interpretations of the facts at hand is a false dichotomy. So yes, the possibility of a false report is there, but it's remote and we can usually discard the 'cry wolf' fallacy because it so rarely happens.

especially when you take into account how often sexual assault goes unreported (for years or sometimes ever) because of the power structures in place that prevent survivors from feeling secure about coming forward with their stories. some of the time, when a survivor does come forward even right away, they are cast with suspicion and doubt, and forced to jump through many hoops to prove what happened.

read this (long, upsetting, but very eye-opening) article @r_z and see if your position changes - How Accusing A Powerful Man of Rape Drove A College Student To Suicide

[allegro]

True. And, my (quoted-by-cashpiles) post said NOTHING about the judicial system and innocent-until-proven-guilty stuff and EVERYTHING about media outlets following their lawyer’s advice and covering their own asses, EVEN IF THERE IS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE in a case, they just don’t want to risk lawsuits. It’s probably cowardly, it’s not in the interest of showing the truth, it’s just kowtowing to advertisers by avoiding controversy and lawsuits.

Like, look at this story.

This one, too (Forms of "alleged" used EIGHT TIMES!!!)

It's just standard CYA. Doesn't matter who or what.

It’s when the news is TOTALLY SUPPRESSED that is more disturbing. Like when NBC refused to air Rowan Farrow’s heavily-researched and well-documented story about Harvey Weinstein, causing Farrow to search for other outlets. The New Yorker finally published Farrow’s story. NBC was afraid of Weinstein’s power and money.

[cashpiles (closed)]

It’s for ratings and attention and money. How people REACT to it is not relevant. What IS relevant is whether or not the scene or nudity or sexual torture storyline was NECESSARY TO THE STORY LINE.

Yes, lots of people - men and women, for a whole bunch of reasons - are “entertained” by this stuff. But if movies and TV do it PRIMARILY (solely??) for quick cash and ratings, then who and why people love it or hate it is beside the point. We need to force Hollywood to stop relying on this shit (and most other violence) and get more creative.

Last time I checked, artists were free to express anything they wanted in their art.

[allegro]

Last time I checked, artists were free to express anything they wanted in their art.

In the case of GofT, it’s an adaptation of a book series, read the link I posted.

Last I checked, we can also tell “artists” to fuck off.

[Disassociative]

13 facepalms jesus christ is this a new record?

[cashpiles (closed)]

sexual assault is unacceptable. It is difficult to prove at present day. In the future; however, personal video recording devices will be everywhere... like in Blade Runner 2049... the bad guy's "eyes".

We need to face reality: evidence is extremely helpful, AND evidence is hard to come by in these cases.

Therefore, exercise caution. Stay with groups. Fight back against attackers. Vocalize your NO emphatically and steadfastly. Don't leave your children alone with strangers. It's unfortunate that we "need to" do these things to protect ourselves...but this is present reality.

Until we have Blade Runner 2049 recording devices, evidence will be hard to come by.

Another possible solution would be some kind of anti-rape armor... made to look and feel like other clothing material..but unable to be removed or penetrated without the wearer's consent. This is all sci-fi... but innovations and technology will one day help in reducing sexual assault.



Also, definitely what @eversonpoe says below. Education is usually the best way to shape society.

HOWEVER, in some cases someone is trying to get frisky with someone, and the other person isn't saying no..and in fact the other person is smiling... Do you suggest every sex act must get verbal agreement beforehand? This has been talked about before..even apps have been made for this.... but I think it's a bit stupid... these situations involve 2 parties... one person wants it.. the other person should vocalize that they don't want it.

[eversonpoe]

sexual assault is unacceptable. It is difficult to prove at present day. In the future; however, personal video recording devices will be everywhere... like in Blade Runner 2049... the bad guy's "eyes".

We need to face reality: evidence is extremely helpful, AND evidence is hard to come by in these cases.

Therefore, exercise caution. Stay with groups. Fight back against attackers. Vocalize your NO emphatically and steadfastly. It's unfortunate that we "need to" do these things to protect ourselves...but this is present reality.

Until we have Blade Runner 2049 recording devices, evidence will be hard to come by.

how about we teach people that exercising power over others by forcing them to commit sex acts is wrong instead of putting the onus on those who get sexually assaulted???

[eversonpoe]

HOWEVER, in some cases someone is trying to get frisky with someone, and the other person isn't saying no..and in fact the other person is smiling... Do you suggest every sex act must get verbal agreement beforehand? This has been talked about before..even apps have been made for this.... but I think it's a bit stupid... these situations involve 2 parties... one person wants it.. the other person should vocalize that they don't want it.

do you understand NOTHING about power dynamics and coercion? do you not understand that sometimes, someone can start out wanting something but change their mind, and because of the perceived privilege of many people, the other person involved can decide what they want is more important and simply take it? do you not understand the paralyzing nature of fear?

when i was raped, i was 15, the girl was 16, and my limbs all turned to sand while my throat siezed up and she took what she wanted from me. i had no ability to say no, or to fight her off, or to do anything but lay there and suffer. so what the fuck are you going to tell me i should have done?

you are approaching this from a very narrow-minded view point devoid of empathy, and it makes you sound like a rape apologist and an asshole.

[M1ke]

sexual assault is unacceptable. It is difficult to prove at present day. In the future; however, personal video recording devices will be everywhere... like in Blade Runner 2049... the bad guy's "eyes".

We need to face reality: evidence is extremely helpful, AND evidence is hard to come by in these cases.

Therefore, exercise caution. Stay with groups. Fight back against attackers. Vocalize your NO emphatically and steadfastly. Don't leave your children alone with strangers. It's unfortunate that we "need to" do these things to protect ourselves...but this is present reality.

Until we have Blade Runner 2049 recording devices, evidence will be hard to come by.

Another possible solution would be some kind of anti-rape armor... made to look and feel like other clothing material..but unable to be removed or penetrated without the wearer's consent. This is all sci-fi... but innovations and technology will one day help in reducing sexual assault.



Also, definitely what @eversonpoe says below. Education is usually the best way to shape society.

HOWEVER, in some cases someone is trying to get frisky with someone, and the other person isn't saying no..and in fact the other person is smiling... Do you suggest every sex act must get verbal agreement beforehand? This has been talked about before..even apps have been made for this.... but I think it's a bit stupid... these situations involve 2 parties... one person wants it.. the other person should vocalize that they don't want it.

Victim blaming isn't even OK here. Fuck off, nobody has time for this shit.

[cashpiles (closed)]

Victim blaming isn't even OK here. Fuck off, nobody has time for this shit.

I'm not fucking victim blaming. I'm saying if someone has a chance to STOP the assault from happening, then do it. Don't be passive.

I understand that someone might feel terror or frozen........ what can they do? ..but if someone has any way of stopping it from happening, then go for it. Of course what the other person is doing is despicable.

For example: someone is trying to kill me. I will try my fucking best to prevent them from doing so.

Again, I understand some people cannot act because of terror....... however, if you can act, act. if you can say no, say no. better not being assaulted than being assaulted. WE ALL AGREE THE PERPETRATORS ARE DESPICABLE AND THEIR ACTIONS ARE UNACCEPTABLE. I'm talking about prevention from the potential victim's side.

As for the perpetrators... eversonpoe has rightly pointed out that education is of absolute importance.... once people KNOW..absolutely know that it's unacceptable, less people will do it.. ALSO, it might help to make punishments for these crimes MORE SEVERE.

[M1ke]

I'm not fucking victim blaming.

And that's where I stopped reading.

If you won't acknowledge that what you just posted was victim blaming, then fuck you.

Also, I didn't just say fuck you.

[eversonpoe]

I'm not fucking victim blaming. I'm saying if someone has a chance to STOP the assault from happening, then do it. Don't be passive.

I understand that someone might feel terror or frozen........ what can they do? ..but if someone has any way of stopping it from happening, then go for it. Of course what the other person is doing is despicable.

For example: someone is trying to kill me. I will try my fucking best to prevent them from doing so.

Again, I understand some people cannot act because of terror....... however, if you can act, act. if you can say no, say no. better not being assaulted than being assaulted. WE ALL AGREE THE PERPETRATORS ARE DESPICABLE AND THEIR ACTIONS ARE UNACCEPTABLE. I'm talking about prevention from the potential victim's side.

As for the perpetrators... eversonpoe has rightly pointed out that education is of absolute importance.... once people KNOW..absolutely know that it's unacceptable, less people will do it.. ALSO, it might help to make punishments for these crimes MORE SEVERE.

you're still not listening. you're not learning. you just keep reiterating the same, unhelpful points over and over. shut up and actually try to understand what people are telling you.