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Thread: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Spoilers

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by GulDukat View Post
    So, overall, which was worse, the prequel or sequel trilogy?

    I'm going with prequel trilogy. The romance between Anakin and Queen/Senator Padame tips the scales, plus I rather enjoyed TFA and TLJ.
    You won't find me for one second saying that many of the performances or dialogue in the prequels were good barring McDiarmid and MacGregor, but...at least it brought us to new places and tried to give us interesting characters. Seeing the capital of Coruscant, the Jedi temple, the Kamino cloning facilities, droid armies, Maul, Grievous, Dooku...It felt like it expanded the Star Wars world in a way the sequels didn't. And that goes quite a bit of a way for me. I wish we'd had more time to get to know a few of the places the ST brought us, our visits to other worlds all seemed so brief.
    Last edited by Shadaloo; 01-22-2020 at 09:49 AM.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    You won't find me for one second saying that many of the performances or dialogue in the sequels were good barring McDiarmid and MacGregor, but...at least it brought us to new places and tried to give us interesting characters. Seeing the capital of Coruscant, the Jedi temple, the Kamino cloning facilities, droid armies, Maul, Grievous, Dooku...It felt like it expanded the Star Wars world in a way the sequels didn't. And that goes quite a bit of a way for me. I wish we'd had more time to get to know a few of the places the ST brought us, our visits to other worlds all seemed so brief.
    They had their moments, as did TROS, imho.

  3. #483
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    For all the bitching people have done about the sequel trilogy, I enjoy every single one of them more than all three prequel movies. I guess The Last Jedi is pretty much on par with Revenge of the Sith, but other than that, there's no question which trilogy is better (in my opinion). The prequels do have the big advantage of their through-line and overarching plot being planned out ahead of time (which is a big one). The sequel trilogy is obviously guilty of failing to do this, which is admittedly a considerable problem. Aside from that, nearly every other aspect of the prequels absolutely pales in comparison to that of the sequel trilogy, including acting, dialogue (SERIOUSLY), special effects (they actually used practical effects and didn't rely on green-screen for the whole damn movie!!), CGI, chemistry between characters, and breaking the mold and trying new things. I can't believe this is even up for debate. The prequels were pretty disappointingly terrible when they were brand new and they have not aged well.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    Gravity is also necessary to make bombs drop. This franchise isn't particularly great when it comes to the 'science' part of 'science fiction'.
    Quote Originally Posted by eversonpoe View Post
    the part of the bomber ships where the bombs are stored have gravity (hence Page falling down in the ship). the bombs are stacked on top of each other, so the weight of the ones at the top would push down the ones below, thus giving them enough momentum to fall down to their targets. and that's also assuming there isn't some kind of mechanism to push them down and out of the ship. yeah, there's no gravity in space, but once something has momentum (whether or not it's achieved in an environment with gravity or not), the only thing in space that can stop it is a collision or some other opposing force.

    why are people so hung up on this and so quick to make it a condemnation of last jedi?
    Weight is the force exerted on an object by the gravitational pull of a large mass. Therefore, weight doesn't exist without gravity. In a vacuum, a heavy object cannot be placed on top of a light object to push it down because there is neither a 'top' nor a 'down'. Open a door into a vacuum and, assuming the vacuum exists both inside and outside the ship, the objects within will continue to travel at the same speed as the ship they're inside. Otherwise, as soon as you open the door, all unsecured objects will get sucked out violently along with all the air inside due to depressurisation.

    Celestial bodies like the planet they're over do have enough mass to exhibit a significant gravitational pull. However, since the ship dropping the bombs is presumably in orbit and the bomb doors are open to vacuum... well, so are the bombs, so they're not going anywhere. Small ships will have insignificantly minuscule gravitational pull, so small that it'd be barely noticeable. You'd need something like magnetic boots to walk on one. Creating artificial gravity inside the ship isn't really possible without something like the centripetal rotation mechanism we see in 2001: A Space Odyssey. I'm willing to overlook this last point, as so many sci-fi shows (BSG, Star Trek, Farscape, etc) just ignore weightlessness altogether in favour of story.

    Assuming the inside of the ship does have gravity and there's some kind of magical force field keeping atmosphere inside, sure, the bombs should drop. They'll only be able to accelerate through space as fast as the small amount of air they pass through inside the ship; after this, they'll travel at that same velocity via inertia unless you attach thrusters to them (which they don't have). Without acceleration, it may take a fair time to actually reach the target, possibly as long as a minute or so depending on distance. So, a force field would work... sort of. However, we don't see any kind of force field. The doors to space are just open. Gravity seems to exist inside, yet when the bomb release controller 'falls', it actually slows and floats through the air before Paige (unaffected by space exposure!) grabs it. This looks like some kind of dramatic slo-mo effect but her arm is moving at normal speed. So... is the bomb release controller affected less by gravity than Paige, who has fallen down onto that metal grate? Is that because she's heavier than the controller? But weight doesn't exist without gravity. Perhaps I'm not understanding this last part, but that's how it looked the one (and only; never again) time I saw this movie.

    There are so many inconsistencies here. It's a stupid scene. There's no way I can treat it seriously, even after suspending disbelief.

    The best part about this is, I consider this scene to be one of the less stupid ones in the film. It's dumb and doesn't understand physics. Whatever. The rest of the film is far worse.

  5. #485
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    It's like the sequel trilogy went from dumb with TFA, to dumber with TLJ to dumbest with RoS

    D-U-M... Dumb as hell.

    I know I already said I was done with this thread once, but I mean it this time. I just get pissed off thinking about the Disney films (besides the Vader scenes and anything that was set on the Death Star in Rogue One, those were good.) And don't even get me started about Solo, did we really NEED a shower scene with Han and Chewie? Not to mention the charisma vacuum that was Alden Erenreich, absolutely none of that swagger that Harrison Ford had. If it wasn't for The Mandalorian being so fucking good, I would have zero interest in anything Star Wars that Disney churns out from this point forward.

    Ok rant is over and I'm outta here.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by GulDukat View Post
    So, overall, which was worse, the prequel or sequel trilogy?

    For me it's a question of which trilogy (prequel or sequel) works the best as a companion piece to the original trilogy? The original trilogy is the magnum opus, so which of the followups plays the nicest with it? In the narrative department it's the prequels, hands down. The prequels, despite all their many flaws, at their core still manage to tell a coherent story that is pertinent to the Skywalker saga.


    In terms of coherent storytelling the films in the sequel trilogy don't even work well with each other, let alone with the originals. The story/narrative of the sequels is clearly a progressive clusterfuck of folks pulling random stuff out of their ass as they went along, and a good bit of it just straight-up flies in the face of the original trilogy.


    That said, all the respect in the world to the actors who acted the hell out of their roles, and respect to the production crews for making movies that look and sound great. The sequels did stellar in these departments.


    So here is the question, many fans were unhappy with the George and the prequels and many fans are now unhappy with J.J./Rian and their sequels. Can Star Wars be saved at this point? If so, how?

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    Did the "your mum" joke come before or after this part? I don't remember.
    Before. The comedy in TLJ is atrocious, and by far the worst in any SW movies, but the opening sequence is still very good, entertaining, and as original as it can be in such a recycled environment. Not to mention it served many purposes story wise. Rebels got even weaker, Poe made his first mistake, Rose lost her sister, Leia got injured and incapable of giving orders. The pay-off sucked for almost all of these, but that's an entirely different topic. Now, what purpose did the Death Star wreckage served? Nothing. And it didn't just defy gravity, it defied every single laws of our known universe. Then again, it happened in a movie where no one died and they introduced a deus ex machina, where we can just heal everyone back up, so not just objects can't be destroyed, nor can people. Except when you go to sleep. That is deadly and incureable, at least until the next trilogy, when we will have robot Leia fighting robot Vader on Alderaan, with a brand new (sike!) John Williams score.

    Yeah, I think I rather take a your momma over this mess. At least that's just simply bad writing, while a Death Star wreckage assumes that I am mentally challenged. I didn't understand when people defended TLJ's bad writing, but defending ROS's approach of treating us dummies is something else. It's some sort of self-burn.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post
    So here is the question, many fans were unhappy with the George and the prequels and many fans are now unhappy with J.J./Rian and their sequels. Can Star Wars be saved at this point? If so, how?
    Yes. The extended universe is (or was) huge. There are so many stories to tell, not just the Skywalker one.

    Next time, they should:
    1. Get a respected and great fucking sci-fi author to write the story for the entire trilogy. William Gibson, Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman, someone like that. Although he's not with us anymore, Iain Banks would have been excellent. Preferably someone who knows the lore, actually cares about the franchise, and can pen a compelling narrative and relatable characters that don't fall apart like soggy cardboard on scrutiny.
    2. Get someone who knows what the hell they're doing to turn those stories into a script.
    3. Hire a good director, not Michael Bay wannabe v2.0.
    4. Have meetings. Make sure the studio is happy with what's going to be made so it won't get cut apart at the last minute.
    5. Get good actors. A cast of no-names plus one or two famous faces would be preferable.
    6. Get a solid production company to make it look and feel like it should. (They've actually got this locked down.)

    Remember Lost? Remember how nothing ever really made sense, everything was made up as it went along, and there was an unsatisfying conclusion? Yeah, maybe don't get that guy to write, produce, and direct your almost half a billion dollar movie.
    Last edited by katara; 01-22-2020 at 04:27 AM.

  9. #489
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    I wonder if we can combine all ETS SW threads into a book and publish it already?

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Channard View Post

    So here is the question, many fans were unhappy with the George and the prequels and many fans are now unhappy with J.J./Rian and their sequels. Can Star Wars be saved at this point? If so, how?
    The Mandalorian is really good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    Except when you go to sleep. That is deadly and incureable
    Freddy Krueger's in the movie? Shit! How did I miss that?

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    Remember Lost? Remember how nothing ever really made sense, everything was made up as it went along, and there was an unsatisfying conclusion? Yeah, maybe don't get that guy to write, produce, and direct your almost half a billion dollar movie.
    That is such a terrible analogy lol. Abrams was mostly involved in the pitch of lost, and working on the foundations. How can you blame him for an unsatisfying season 6 finale, when he barely had anything to do with the show since season 1? Whether you love or hate Lost, it's all on Lindelof and Lieber.

    Also, a TV series has to go on. You have to bullshit your way to the next seasons, and this is especially true for non-cable shows. You can't pull a Watchmen on a network like ABC, especially not 10+ years ago.

    As much as Abrams is possibly deeply involved with the travesty that is ROS, the hate boner for him is ridiculous. He already proved himself with TFA, which was a very contained movie. Not only you are factually wrong with associating the success/failure of Lost with him, TFA was nothing like the Lost pilot. Lost pilot had smoke monsters, people surviving a plane crash, wheel chaired guy walking again, dead bodies disappearing from coffins, etc. Lost's initial appeal was full of these hype monsters. If you think that the Knights of Ren or Rey's parents possibly being important is on equal terms with something like the Lost pilot, then you don't even care, you just want to bash Abrams for the sake of bashing him.

    People can argue about how good or bad TFA was, but no one can deny that it could have gone anywhere, because it was a solid foundation, and even if the story elements were very light, it succeeded in the most important thing: introducing interesting and likeable new characters. I think you should wait 20-30 years to try to retrospectively deny these things and claim that he is a hack and he ruined everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    Freddy Krueger's in the movie? Shit! How did I miss that?
    It's easy to miss storylines in ROS, because they each had 10 seconds of screen time, so if you searched for your popcorn in the dark, you already missed something important.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    That is such a terrible analogy lol. Abrams was mostly involved in the pitch of lost, and working on the foundations. How can you blame him for an unsatisfying season 6 finale, when he barely had anything to do with the show since season 1? Whether you love or hate Lost, it's all on Lindelof and Lieber.

    Also, a TV series has to go on. You have to bullshit your way to the next seasons, and this is especially true for non-cable shows. You can't pull a Watchmen on a network like ABC, especially not 10+ years ago.

    As much as Abrams is possibly deeply involved with the travesty that is ROS, the hate boner for him is ridiculous. He already proved himself with TFA, which was a very contained movie. Not only you are factually wrong with associating the success/failure of Lost with him, TFA was nothing like the Lost pilot. Lost pilot had smoke monsters, people surviving a plane crash, wheel chaired guy walking again, dead bodies disappearing from coffins, etc. Lost's initial appeal was full of these hype monsters. If you think that the Knights of Ren or Rey's parents possibly being important is on equal terms with something like the Lost pilot, then you don't even care, you just want to bash Abrams for the sake of bashing him.

    People can argue about how good or bad TFA was, but no one can deny that it could have gone anywhere, because it was a solid foundation, and even if the story elements were very light, it succeeded in the most important thing: introducing interesting and likeable new characters. I think you should wait 20-30 years to try to retrospectively deny these things and claim that he is a hack and he ruined everything.
    Perhaps I am wrong about Lost. However, there's no need to be so openly hostile towards me for it.

    Abrams fucked up both Star Trek and Star Wars. I'll bash him as much as I like, thank you very much.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    If we're really getting into specifics here, the original explosion is also bullshit. Shockwaves don't work like that in space. It'd be a sphere, not a disc.
    Which is why it originally didn't have the stupid disc explosion. That didn't come around until the lame "special editions."

    I thought it was a lot worse how they had this "hold the dagger up to the outline" thing, which would require the person to be standing at the proper angle and distance to have it even work... so goddamn dumb.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by katara View Post
    Perhaps I am wrong about Lost. However, there's no need to be so openly hostile towards me for it.

    Abrams fucked up both Star Trek and Star Wars. I'll bash him as much as I like, thank you very much.
    Abrams fucked up ROS, not Star Wars. Huge difference. And ROS had already been doomed as a mess after TLJ. The latter is not a get out of jail card for Abrams, he should be called out for making ROS this bad, but saying that he ruined Star Wars just screams that you either don't want to or just can't understand how planning and writing a movie trilogy actually works, and you are pre-occupied with bashing Abrams (for whatever personal reasons), so you really can't be bothered to be even think about your stance on this matter, because "Abrams ruined SW" is just way too convenient, even if the reality is that the sequel trilogy is bleeding from a hundred wounds, and Abrams' (anti)contribution to it is just a footnote.

    I mean, even if we all pretend that you are absolutely right, and Abrams ruined everything: doesn't it beg the thought that someone hired him not once, but twice? That should immediately set you off on a route to enlightment.

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    you either don't want to or just can't understand how planning and writing a movie trilogy actually works
    Please don't presume to know me. You don't. Stop being so hostile. It's tedious.

    Also: Read my post above which explains (roughly) some ingredients needed to make a good movie.

    Also (subjective): The Force Awakens was a bad movie. Bad in that it was retread A New Hope in almost every way. Pandering to the fans out of laziness. One-dimensional characters, no new narrative, all expensive visuals. Didn't try anything new despite the wealth of material in the franchise that could be covered.

    Of course Abrams is not the only one involved here. Disney hired him. Disney was the yes-man who okayed it all. That doesn't make them any better. However, Abrams is the one whose name is all over the movie. He made most of the decisions, including passing the buck over to Rian Johnson without any kind of plan.

    I don't know why I'm bothering to defend my case here. This movie trilogy was dire just like the last one, and I'm past the point of caring about it.
    Last edited by katara; 01-23-2020 at 06:07 AM.

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    So obviously, Trevorow leaked the script himself, right?

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wretchedest View Post
    So obviously, Trevorow leaked the script himself, right?
    If so, you gotta love how 3 out of 3 directors acted like petty boys, who felt that they have something to prove over the others by any means necessary. If I criticized Rian and JJ for their shameful dick contest, Trevorow is just as sad if he leaked this shit himself.

    I mean, don't be proud of yourself when your script has a Jedi ghost haunting someone (???), and Kylo fighting with a phantom Darth Vader. It's like saying that your turd would've come with a different color. It's not something to be proud of. Why can't these directors and writers think about our new characters, instead of Vader, Palpatine and Luke? Luke's got a whole story arc from start to finish in TLJ fffs. Whether you liked or hated it, it's done, get over it. No one wants to see Luke haunting some kid out of spite, raising even more questions about whether the Jedi are any better than the Sith. Not to mention that if you loved his TLJ arc, you'd be annoyed that they don't give him his proper rest, and if you found his TLJ arc "unlike Luke", then seeing him haunting someone won't cure your itch. It's a lose-lose situation.

    God, the best thing that happened with this trilogy is that it's over. I do hope that these bits will keep coming though, because it's entertaining.

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    Abrams fucked up ROS, not Star Wars. Huge difference. And ROS had already been doomed as a mess after TLJ. The latter is not a get out of jail card for Abrams, he should be called out for making ROS this bad, but saying that he ruined Star Wars just screams that you either don't want to or just can't understand how planning and writing a movie trilogy actually works, and you are pre-occupied with bashing Abrams (for whatever personal reasons), so you really can't be bothered to be even think about your stance on this matter, because "Abrams ruined SW" is just way too convenient, even if the reality is that the sequel trilogy is bleeding from a hundred wounds, and Abrams' (anti)contribution to it is just a footnote.

    I mean, even if we all pretend that you are absolutely right, and Abrams ruined everything: doesn't it beg the thought that someone hired him not once, but twice? That should immediately set you off on a route to enlightment.
    Lucas fucked up Star Wars long before JJ Abrams with those horrid prequels.

    At least with the new trilogy, you have some interesting directing, even though the story sucked. With the prequel trilogy, both the directing and story sucked. The prequels could've been somewhat better in the hands of a more competent director.
    Last edited by neorev; 01-25-2020 at 02:40 AM.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    Lucas fucked up Star Wars long before JJ Abrams with those horrid prequels.

    At least with the new trilogy, you have some interesting directing, even though the story sucked. With the prequel trilogy, both the directing and story sucked. The prequels could've been somewhat better in the hands of a more competent director.
    True, but the failures of the prequels did not influence the sequels in any way. It wasn't like the ending of TLJ, where we were like... okay, where do we go from here? RotS hit a hard reset on everything the prequels has had built up.

    Was it interesting directing btw? Rian's was, but JJ's was "just" good. He had his bits and pieces, mostly with the two Kylo vs. Rey duels, he managed to make them look fresh and interesting, but it's really hard to appreciate ROS with its insane pacing. Also, some of his nice shots (ie. Knights of Ren posing on top of the dunes) are nothing more than scenes for the trailers, and otherwise makes no sense. JJ's work would have been more than enough if it was accompanied by a decent story, but overall I prefer Rian's visuals. Even the questionable casino planet had some fun shots, like the trampling of the casinos.

  21. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volband View Post
    True, but the failures of the prequels did not influence the sequels in any way. It wasn't like the ending of TLJ, where we were like... okay, where do we go from here? RotS hit a hard reset on everything the prequels has had built up.

    Was it interesting directing btw? Rian's was, but JJ's was "just" good. He had his bits and pieces, mostly with the two Kylo vs. Rey duels, he managed to make them look fresh and interesting, but it's really hard to appreciate ROS with its insane pacing. Also, some of his nice shots (ie. Knights of Ren posing on top of the dunes) are nothing more than scenes for the trailers, and otherwise makes no sense. JJ's work would have been more than enough if it was accompanied by a decent story, but overall I prefer Rian's visuals. Even the questionable casino planet had some fun shots, like the trampling of the casinos.
    This is what I mean, even with a crappy story, a decent director will at least make it look interesting to watch. With the prequels, there's just nothing really amazing going on. It's all filmed quite basic and blandly. I guess the pod race scene was decent. But beside that, nothing really stuck with me at all. I can't point out another scene that was good and stuck with me. I wish Lucas would go all insane Lucasy and redo all of the special effects from the prequels.
    Last edited by neorev; 01-26-2020 at 04:01 PM.

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    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    This is what I mean, even with a crappy story, a decent director will at least make it look interesting to watch. With the prequels, there's just nothing really amazing going on. It's all filmed quite basic and blandly. I guess the pod race scene was decent. But beside that, nothing really stuck with me at all. I can't point out another scene that was good and stuck with me. I wish Lucas would go all insane Lucasy and redo all of the special effects from the prequels.
    I did rather enjoy ROTS and the final duel at the end was cool, imho.

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