Trump 2017: Year Zero

[allegro]

@allegro I’ve been slower on the uptake as of late but it seems like you’re saying it is way more likely that Trump is indicted (when someone indicted previously rolls on him) and subsequently resigns?

Again, my hopes are low but given what’s out there, I’d think Flynn and Jr will be on the hook before this is over.

Trump is not the Big Fish, here.

Nixon was in Watergate because Nixon, himself, was the maestro, conducting everything, telling everybody what to do.

What this investigation is doing is investigating the behind-the-scenes Machine that has been in operation for decades. The Trump kids etc. are just a part of the bigger investigation.

Yes, it is “possible” that the investigation will turn up OTHER stuff, some “smoking gun” that is accidentally discovered along the way. The grand jury’s job is to leave no stone uncovered or unturned. There are no rules of evidence laws re a grand jury. Some stuff may be inadmissible in trial, later, but that has nothing to do with this.

As was mentioned: if you want change, that can only happen in the voting booths.

And, yes, Nixon resigned before the Senate conducted a hearing to determine if Nixon had actually committed crimes that warranted Articles of Impeachment. CRIMES. AoI is a CRIMINAL indictment.

[aggroculture]

Nobody with any intelligence or education in U.S. Law and History thinks this has ANYTHING to do with impeachment. That is not how it works. No President has EVER been fully impeached, nor will it likely ever happen. Ever.

Trump is an asshole but the Machine works independent of Trump.

No, Mueller’s team isn’t picking and choosing specific things, this isn’t Law and Order SVU. The GRAND JURY demands whatever evidence it wants. The ONLY thing that Mueller provides that the grand jury doesn’t ask for are jury instructions that contain the exact language of the laws in question.

Can the Grand Jury demand evidence about Trump's direct involvement if Trump isn't even listed or mentioned anywhere by Mueller's team as under investigation?

I find it very hard to believe that a prosecutor, appointed by a Trump administration DOJ, has any intention whatsoever of bringing charges against Trump.
Trump's MO is to have his minions tear each other apart and fall by the wayside, while he stays on top, and I see this as more of the same.

Trump will be unscathed by this, and your comments seem to support that view too.

[Harry Seaward]

[ltrandazzo]

Can the Grand Jury demand evidence about Trump's direct involvement if Trump isn't even listed or mentioned anywhere by Mueller's team as under investigation?

I find it very hard to believe that a prosecutor, appointed by a Trump administration DOJ, has any intention whatsoever of bringing charges against Trump.
Trump's MO is to have his minions tear each other apart and fall by the wayside, while he stays on top, and I see this as more of the same.

Trump will be unscathed by this, and your comments seem to support that view too.

This investigation will prove that the fears about Trump were correct and that he has nothing but Fredo Corleones working for him. Bob Mueller was so popular at the FBI that Obama kept him on for another two years past his appointment, so he ended up serving from '02-'14. I'm not discounting him yet.

Impeachment will likely happen under THIS congress once they get tax cuts. They might wait if tax cuts are held up or if GOP leadership has had enough and want to get Pence in there.

[allegro]

Can the Grand Jury demand evidence about Trump's direct involvement if Trump isn't even listed or mentioned anywhere by Mueller's team as under investigation?

No.

Edit: BUT... if the grand jury investigation uncovers said evidence, then the grand jury can suggest indictment (impeachment).

I find it very hard to believe that a prosecutor, appointed by a Trump administration DOJ, has any intention whatsoever of bringing charges against Trump.

That isn’t the GOAL.

The Special Prosecutor was appointed by the Deputy Attorney General to conduct its investigation. But note that the appointee stayed clear of doing the investigation, HIMSELF. He assembled a grand jury.

This investigation is going after the MACHINE. Manafort is a big part of the Machine that used Trump as a TOOL to accomplish their own agenda - that is entirely possible. He’s an idiot.

He really is the Fredo of the Corleone family. He THINKS he’s Michael, but he’s not.

He might be CARLO (Rizzi), actually; totally outside of the family.

[Louie_Cypher]

full court press is on to somehow make this about Clinton, was watching some old clips with faux news going on and about Obama needing impeaching, even , saying,"Obama's executive orders were the beginning of a dictatorship. I Think Trump is being guided,as long as the economy doesn't wobble the rich get tax cut's military contractor paid, I don't think he's going anywhere look how long it took for Clinton to play out.
-Louie

[allegro]

And then nothing happened to Clinton; the Senate slapped him with a simple perjury charge and he lost his law license.

[ltrandazzo]

full court press is on to somehow make this about Clinton, was watching some old clips with faux news going on and about Obama needing impeaching, even , saying,"Obama's executive orders were the beginning of a dictatorship. I Think Trump is being guided,as long as the economy doesn't wobble the rich get tax cut's military contractor paid, I don't think he's going anywhere look how long it took for Clinton to play out.
-Louie

Faux News and the BS they're putting on today isn't going to be meant for anyone other than their base. It's static.

[allegro]

What's the appropriate term for this? Arrest is all that came to mind. But I'm also used to the white collar stuff that produces a frigging raid.

Indictment

Impeachment is also an indictment

Edit, sorry: Indict = to formally charge with a serious crime

Something to remember:

Not that it means anything here now but explains the process:

The Watergate investigation wasn’t started with “let’s blame Nixon.” They were initially trying to determine who broke into the DNC office. And the investigation went on for a long time. People around Nixon were indicted. Then, the “Smoking Gun” = the Oval Office tapes. Nixon was indicted mostly for OBSTRUCTING THE INVESTIGATION. He resigned before anything else happened but he would have likely been found guilty and gone to PRISON after facing a FEDERAL JURY IN A FEDERAL TRIAL for orchestrating the whole thing. But Ford pardoned him before that happened.

[allegro]

You aren’t always arrested. In Federal white collar crimes, you mostly AREN’T. You are formally charged, they take your fingerprints and picture, you surrender your Passport, you are told to stick around pending Trial.

[allegate]

This thread is great: https://twitter.com/thegrugq/status/925010113055694848
Papadopolous is really fucking bad at this. This must have been pretty easy for the FBI.


Hey, let's lie to the FBI while having evidence of the lie on your public facebook!
https://twitter.com/jarmascm/status/925017237710426112

This dumbshit actually thought he could scrub evidence AFTER the FBI had interviewed him... as if the FBI ever comes to you before they have collected EVERYTHING.

"That's Greek, not Russian." like that makes a fucking difference?

[Jinsai]

They caught Nixon because they had a tape recording where he said some muffled affirmative grunt... I know we've been trained to check our optimism but this actually looks like the moment where the madness starts to stop

[Findus]

[allegro]

They caught Nixon because they had a tape recording where he said some muffled affirmative grunt

Ohhhhh nooooooooo, he said WAY the fuck more than that, dude.

And, even then, what he was SAYING pointed to obstruction, not the actual crime. Once the investigation turned up a bunch of other people who were indicted (many were sent to prison), they indicated Nixon's involvement.

Which has nothing to do with what's happening now.

We don't even understand what's happening now, because it's a few people and it's only an INDICTMENT.

I'm willing to bet my left kidney that 95% of America won't even read the indictment. Too complicated, need cherry-flavored version spoon-fed via talking head on News Entertainment on a panel of people arguing about "what it all means" in between commercials for Depends and prescription drugs.

Here's the beginning of the Magic Trail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black,...tone_and_Kelly

See also: https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...s-1980s-213952

THIS IS FROM 1985: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.e7e04d2aa504

[Sister Midnight]

What the fuck is Sarah Huckabee Sanders talking about? That tax story was fucking hilarious and for sure will be a skit on the next SNL.

[allegate]

What the fuck is Sarah Huckabee Sanders talking about? That tax story was fucking hilarious and for sure will be a skit on the next SNL.

https://twitter.com/ScottGustin/stat...54493250719744

[Sister Midnight]

https://twitter.com/ScottGustin/stat...54493250719744

I get what she is trying to do, I just think its hilarious. She is going out in front of the press, who at this point are a pack of wild dogs hungry for flesh and she throws a piece of broccoli at them.

[allegro]

https://twitter.com/ScottGustin/stat...54493250719744

Spoon-feeding sugary berry-flavored crap to the uneducated masses.

"Ohhh, more please."

[ton]

Well the trail is leading to where we all suspected.

[Louie_Cypher]

you know what would happen if I lied to the FBI? i would be thrown in a deep dark hole and never heard from again
action must be taken, don't need a key we'll fucking brake in.
#justiceNow
-Louie

[Harry Seaward]

you know what would happen if I lied to the FBI? i would be thrown in a deep dark hole and never heard from again
action must be taken, don't need a key we'll fucking brake in.
#justiceNow
-Louie

If you had knowledge that could potentially lead to the toppling of a White House, you probably wouldn't be in a hole for very long.

[allegro]

For what it's worth: People lie to the FBI all the time, people lie FOR the FBI all the time. I've SEEN 'em do it.

http://reason.com/archives/2015/04/2...andfathers-fbi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements


IN THIS CASE (Manafort), the lies are to cover up a pretty fancy fucking lifestyle, HOLY SHIT, read the indictment.

THE INDICTMENT IS HERE.

[Louie_Cypher]

here's how I think IMHO, they had compromising, info on both candidates, the dossier, on trump, pizza gate maybe on hillary, i believe, Putin, approached, them both well before the primary, 1) cause confusion, 2) I am the only true souse of info
3) profit.
-Louie

[ton]

here's how I think IMHO, they had compromising, info on both candidates, the dossier, on trump, pizza gate maybe on hillary, i believe, Putin, approached, them both well before the primary, 1) cause confusion, 2) I am the only true souse of info
3) profit.
-Louie

Never thought of it like this

[theimage13]

Can we talk about Papa?
@allegro , I'd particularly love your two cents on this since you actually know what you're talking about.

To me, this is the story that feels far more relevant to the current administration. As I understand it, this is a campaign official admitting that he lied to the FBI about who he met with and when, and that he was in fact in a position of influence inside the campaign when he met with people known to have ties to the Russian government in order to obtain intel on the opponent. Did I get that right, or did I misinterpret what I've seen reported so far? Either way...I've already seen a number of people call that the smoking gun, but I don't know - it sounds bad, but not "holy shit, this is the beginning of the end" bad. But then, I don't know what sort of unbelievably blatant felonies would have to exist to get to that point.

As for Manafort and Gates...seeing a lot of people on social media hailing this as huge news and how it does, in a roundabout way, tie in to the election. But my understanding is "these are years-old tax crimes that have nothing to do with the election or campaign from a legal perspective". Again - am I way off on that?

[Sister Midnight]

As I understand it these are the first indictments, apparently there are more to come. Manafort and Gates are fucked, unless Manafort is willing to cooperate with Mueller for reduced sentencing he could face twenty years. I believe Papadopolous (can we call him Papageorgio) pled guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts to Russia. This is the thing that could hurt Trump because a member of his campaign had contacts to Russia and denied it to the FBI.
What could really hurt Trump is if Manafort flips for a reduced sentence. However we don't know what other indictments are going to happen and how deep this goes, but it doesn't look good.

If this was the James Cameron movie Titanic, I think we are at the part where the guy yells "Iceberg right ahead" in the Mueller investigation, of coarse the part where Leo freezes and becomes an ice cube would be the part where Trump is impeached. So we have lots of this story to go.

This story is pretty fucking cool because we may be witnessing a piece of American history.

[aggroculture]

THE INDICTMENT IS HERE.

If you search the doc for "Trump" it says "No results for Trump"

Yep, it's a little early for getting out the champagne.

[Sister Midnight]

I don't seem to recall Ronald Reagan yelling "Crooked Mondale" during the Iran contra scandal.

[allegate]

https://twitter.com/BySteveReilly/st...63641870856192

Steve Reilly‏Verified account
@BySteveReilly
U.S. District Court for D.C. has four sealed cases in its docket with case numbers between Papadopoulos' (182) and Manafort's (201).

[allegro]

https://twitter.com/BySteveReilly/st...63641870856192

Ohhh, man, this is all legal PORN for us law fans. awesome stuff.