Likes: 
Faceplams: That footage on the DVD could have been them recording a backing track of it, which would have used for the live shows. But, who knows?
Throbbing Member
That footage on the DVD could have been them recording a backing track of it, which would have used for the live shows. But, who knows?
desperately chilled
the closure footage is in the bonus appendage material that was released on torrent sites a few years back. it's definitely DS-era and def. seems like a studio cut, though i guess that could just be wishful thinking... but since they recorded 'memorabilia' as well, could be possible a rough cut exists!
Flaccid Member
I find it perplexing that people are complaining about the wall of sound production for The Fragile... Yeah know, considering it's that way by design. It's not just the master or even the mix, but also how the songs were composed down to the gear/effects settings, filtering, etc. Thus mentioning how muddy the bass is on this or that song seems odd considering a lot of it was recorded dirty to begin with. Basically I haven't the foggiest why TF needed to be remastered at all. TDS (the true magnum opus) on the other hand, is what really needed a remaster since it sounds tinny. Though I've not heard the 2004 version... So if Trent beefed it up since the original master, then good on him.
Last edited by Devourer; 12-29-2016 at 03:02 PM.
Throbbing Member
Ah yes, the Adrian Sherwood track from Closer To God. Great track. It probably won't show up on any Deviations release, but it would be nice if Trent re-issued the Closer To God 12" on vinyl. I think the only commercial release was the 2x12" set released in the UK.Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism
Banned
Agreed. I've never once found The Fragile to be the better of the two albums, like most others seem to. The Fragile, while phenomenal in its own right, has always struck me as TR having no discernible idea how to possibly equal or top what he created with TDS, artistically speaking.TDS (the true magnum opus
However, I'm not hearing anything major -- save for the panning glitch at the beginning of Heresy, as others have already pointed out -- that the new 2016 remaster is doing that the 2004 SACD upgrade didn't already. Even on a basic stereo setup, that thing can bring down a house..
It is, and goes for well over $100 just for one half of the set in NM condition, as I discovered only a few days ago.
God is an American
The mix masters likely were digital, for all of those records. They either mixed to DAT for each song or assembled them from hard disk sessions. Those records are therefore already 'digital on vinyl' and as I keep trying to tell people, digital is not the enemy of good sounding vinyl, it's about where the engineer added mastering moves when cutting the vinyl stamper. I haven't heard those Manson pressings, they may sound great or there could be room for improvement.
I do know that the CDs you bought are not straight copies of those digital masters, they were subjected to mastering moves for CD. Ideally, the engineers would have cut those original vinyl pressings from an earlier pre-mastering source but I suspect not. The best Manson fans can hope for is that Interscope saved the Mechanical Animals cutting lacquers (since that was the only LP you mentioned seemingly cut contemporaneously with the CD) and can repress a new batch from them without having to master again from an already-mastered CD source.
Didn't Holy Wood also come out on vinyl at the same time as the CD? I bet that pressing sounds huge; there are some very cool guitar tones on that album...
Last edited by botley; 03-06-2018 at 04:31 PM.
Stubby Member
yes. yes it does.
Active Member
I really dislike it when labels press something on 180g but don't recut the disc and put it a half volume. Terrible.
Mechanical Animals sounds lovely on 'o' vinyl... re-arranged track listing and one of the discs is blue to allow for the hidden text/images to be seen.
bastard from blue city
All indications are that it was from the CD source. Perhaps not the mastering, but it definitely uses the sequence already established for the CD running order; the blue/white first press still has the segue from "Dissociative" to "The Speed of Pain" despite them being on different sides (the buzzing synths are faded out/in, respectively, ending/starting almost exactly at the point where the CD index changes). Pretty sure Manson albums have never been AAA on vinyl, ever, save maybe POAAF, if that was even done analog.
God is an American
Not 100% sure but I suspect it was mixed to DAT. That seems consistent with the reported Nothing family workflow circa Broken/pre-TDS era, anyway. Around the time Clouser got on board (circa 1994) they also started to use Pro Tools in-the-box sessions for master mixdowns. Not likely to be anything above 48kHz/16bit.
Last edited by botley; 12-28-2016 at 12:20 PM.
Active Member
There are a lot of pages here that I don't want to read through so forgive me if this has already been answered: Is there any info on the release/sale dates for the other albums and reissues that have not yet gone on sale?
Cubby NIИtastic
Nope,other than later in 2017. Presumably after the first batch ships in Spring, but I guess that's not necessarily true.
Banned
But it is very possible for labels to just be downright lazy and press a CD source to vinyl without bothering to master it properly for LP, yea?
God is an American
Although it does happen, for major label releases it's unusual. Competent mastering is really necessary for a commercial vinyl release. CDs are mastered for the mass market: low overhead, cheap to produce. Vinyl is more niche, costs more to produce and distribute, and labels need to sell a higher percentage of their production run in order to make it worth the comparatively high investment. The labels know, after seventy years of LP production, that if they don't pay someone with experience to do master records for the vinyl format, they'll get angry customers demanding their money back. Test pressings, quality control, mastering labs employing engineers with decades of experience — these all exist to prevent the scenario you describe. Not that the final product will differ that wildly from the CD, but it will at least sound okay on vinyl.
Last edited by botley; 12-28-2016 at 05:05 PM.
she/her/hers
some thoughts, as i've listened to the WAVs of broken, TDS, and the fragile today:
on all three, i'm definitely hearing things i NEVER heard before, even on the 5.1 mix of TDS. some of them might actually be different, but some of them might just be so clear now that you can hear things that were previously buried.
broken sounds amazing. like, really fucking amazing. i don't think i ever paid such close attention to just how much stereo information there is in it. it's definitely not going to transfer to vinyl perfectly, but it'll still sound pretty great.
TDS has the same segues as all the other versions, and since you-know-who popped in to tell us that these digital files are essentially what they delivered for the vinyl, it's safe to say that the issues with sides being split between the segues will remain on the new pressing. pretty disappointing, but at least it sounds really good.
it has been at least five years (possibly seven) since i've listened to the fragile, because i'd been anticipating a deluxe/remastered version. it's literally my favorite album of all time and it's been years since i've heard it all the way through. listening to it again now is giving me similar feelings to the first time i heard it, except there's even more depth and beauty in all of the new sounds i'm absorbing. i could not possibly be happier, and i really can't wait for the vinyl.
Unintelligible Whispering
I've only picked up TF and TF: Deviations thus far, but you know what really jumped out at me as having a massive difference? Starfuckers. It took me back to when TDTWWA single landed, and that was a B-side, listening to it for the first time and being really surprised at how 'un-NIN-like' it seemed at the time, in a good way. The whole thing really kicks my ass again. Suck it, haters.
Also I kinda wish the secret included with Broken is the whole album as mixed by Butch Vig, having been locked in a closet for 20 years plus, because holy fuck do I ever love that Last remix.
Active Member
@Shadaloo
I always liked Starfuckers, Inc. I like it's sorta drum n' bass inspired vibe in the verses with the stuttering/glitches. So I'm with ya. I love The Perfect Drug, even if Trent doesn't. So anything that goes along with Trent's dnb/jungle/breaks love, like Was It Worth It?, I am in. I want more of that.
Banned
Has the Deviations collection helped enforce your love for the Fragile at all, or had you already played the Apple Music collection from last year to death?
Active Member
Just gave The Fragile WAVs a listen... very happy. Hearing new details was great. Felt compelled to listen to my Things Falling Apart vinyl right after. Ahhh... 2000... The whispering on both 10 Miles High was the same to my ears.
Unintelligible Whispering
You know, on this tangent...
I was just listening to the first half of Deviations as I went about my day, and Not What It Seems Like really struck me insofar as how much it seems to have in common with TPD, what with the DnB elements. Both that one and Was it Worth It? seem like they might have been cut from the same cloth, more or less.
I'm not going to start blathering on about 'lost albums from 1997' or anything (though the notion that vocal versions of those in some form do exist makes me pee a little), but I feel like it's definitely possible to hear the progression away from TPD towards what TF eventually became when you listen to some of said tracks that didn't make the final album cut. It's really neat.
Active Member
I'm not seeing much a DnB correlation between the Deviations tracks you mention & TPD. The two songs mentioned are much slower than DnB, and there isn't enough erratic percussion/snare to resemble jungle style or TPD, nor does either resemvle closer to a standard jump-up beat either. I think these are just break loops that they created. Certainly sound cool, but i don't hear much of a DnB influence there. Not What It Seems Like almost gets there, but not enough.
she/her/hers
one of them, though (can't remember which) definitely has a very similar beat to "starfuckers" and sounds like bits of it were absorbed into the latter song.
Active Member
I'd love to hear Trent do an EP in the vein of Perfect Drug/Was It Worth It? electronic chopped up IDM breaks. Even if it is instrumental. I wanna hear Trent's electronic album. Forget the lyrics or use vocals more as samples/effects. I think Trent has a solid electronica album in him.
Active Member
he did say in the Beats 1 interview that he & Atticus spent alot of timing studying Plastikman-style minimal techno (giving me yet another reason to love this man)...
I would love to hear his straight-up dancey techno/house contributions if he had any.
bastard from blue city
The two best things Plastikman ever did are "Consumed" and "Korridor." If they had material like that, hand it the fuck over!
Throbbing Member
Doesn't Deviations II *have* to be the mythical version of The Fragile that Mike Garson has been wanting to put out for ages?
Flaccid Member
Wonder if he's listened to the 'Slumberman' stuff.
Stubby Member
Will PHM get a 2017 definitive edition?
24.24.2.3171
Signs point to Probably Not - the 2010 remaster was already quite detailed, with a vinyl release that I believe TR+co were quite happy with. If we were going to get a DE of that, I'd expect it to show up on the store page as "coming soon," like YZ, WT, and Slip.
Throbbing Member
A better question...will we ever see an official release of all those 1988 demos?
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