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Thread: Tapeworm demos/Helmet/Page Hamiltion involvement/1995 tour

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcpunk View Post
    I don’t know if a comprehensive history is even possible. I’ve read varying accounts of who contributed what and I remember someone (Anselmo?) saying some of their work ended up on a Marilyn Manson album. If the project existed as nothing more than loops and ideas for almost a decade, doing a thorough autopsy of everything that was recorded for it and where any of that material may have surfaced or may not have, would be a Herculean task. If it was so great, we’d have heard it. Maybe for the best it stays under wraps.
    I'm referring more to the history of Tapeworm than what was actually recorded. I'm more interested in the nitty gritty about how it came to be and how it eventually fell apart.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism View Post
    That’s one of the better ideas I’ve heard! It’s not that I’m not curious; it’s just that I don’t think this is the big deal everyone wants it to be. I’ve collaborated with people on things before. If I don’t find a way to use the results of things that fizzled, it’s because it’s largely only “precious” to me and usually very unfinished. I don’t think any of Tapeworm is a Woman in the Window situation.

    Just an article-length oral history. I don’t even care about hearing any “vault” music; I don’t need any of the participants to deprioritize current work and return to remastering 25-year-old half-assed demos. I’d just take an oral history and accompanying playlist of songs that descended from the project—“Vacant,” “Potions,” &c.

    Actually, what is the list of those songs? Including, I guess, “Starfuckers.”
    off the top of my head, there’s Vacant/Passive, Potions, Starfuckers and maybe Convict Colony from Niggy Tardust. Then I can’t rightly remember if any of Danny Lohner’s Renholder material from the first Underworld soundtrack has origins in Tapeworm.
    Or any of Clouser’s stuff.

    i’m sorry for derailing this ninspotting thread

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcpunk View Post
    I don’t know if a comprehensive history is even possible. I’ve read varying accounts of who contributed what and I remember someone (Anselmo?) saying some of their work ended up on a Marilyn Manson album. If the project existed as nothing more than loops and ideas for almost a decade, doing a thorough autopsy of everything that was recorded for it and where any of that material may have surfaced or may not have, would be a Herculean task. If it was so great, we’d have heard it. Maybe for the best it stays under wraps.
    Yeah, I don't know how much of a there is there. I spent a lot of time on this back in the 2000s, here's how I'd sum things up:

    Trent buys a former funeral home and installs multiple studios in it. There are attached apartments. Members of the live band move to New Orleans and they start working on new material, and since it's a more collaborative process, this inevitably leads to discussions of side projects. The name Tapeworm makes sense as it feeds off the waste of the host, right? Trent, Danny, and Charlie all have musician friends that they bring in and jam with. Some of this material gets worked into NIN songs, a lot of it sits on a centralized server, where the Nothing Studios crew bounce tracks around to each other, but primarily, everyone's there to support a new Nine Inch Nails album. That album comes out, the band goes into rehearsal mode (in the Bahamas? Am I remembering that right?), tours Europe, Japan, Australia, gets back to the states, plans for Fragility 2.0, rehearses in NOLA and Los Angeles, tours a bunch more, crashes back in New Orleans, where they work on AATCHB. In mid-2001, tapeworm.net is registered, but no site goes live. I think that, at this point, Danny Lohner's vaguely guiding the direction of Tapeworm, but getting support from Charlie, and by 2002, Trent has a more active role, and Maynard is appearing in press photos. Maybe a few instrumental tracks get closer to completion, and there's more of a focus on the project, Alan Moulder even comes in to mix some tracks.

    And that's as far as it gets. Maybe the lyrics never came together. Certainly, the expectations around a 'supergroup' merging members of NIN and Tool were impossible to live up to. So some of the folks who worked on the music take their copies with them and go home. A Perfect Circle performs "Vacant" live on tour, and to my knowledge, no soundboard recordings ever come out of that tour. Most of the audience recordings aren't great, it was a very bass-heavy show, and pretty tough to sneak recording equipment into. Tapeworm tracks show up in The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of Niggy Tardust, in some form or another. Potions by Puscifer has a Trent Reznor writing credit, and I think at some point was confirmed as being derived from a Tapeworm track. Devations 1: The Fragile is released, and some of the tracks are early versions of what appears on Niggy Tardust - was that Tapeworm? If so, it's not all of Tapeworm, because the drums from "Convict Colony" don't show up here.

    Both Trent and Maynard have said in interviews that if the music had been good, they would have put it out, but that it just ended up not being all that good. Happily, we've had so, so much music from several people involved, that nearly two decades(!) later, I think it's perfectly fine to let sleeping Tapeworms lie. We've heard all that's good that came out of it.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Both Trent and Maynard have said in interviews that if the music had been good, they would have put it out, but that it just ended up not being all that good. Happily, we've had so, so much music from several people involved, that nearly two decades(!) later, I think it's perfectly fine to let sleeping Tapeworms lie. We've heard all that's good that came out of it.
    Thanks for all of that. And though I’m content to let the matter rest, clearly not everyone seems to be in agreement. Which is why I think I’m with the above poster that some sort of semi-official set of interviews might be best-suited to put the matter to rest for those still clamoring.

    Though I also realize that, relatively speaking, like no one still cares about this. It just seems like a shitload of voices since our sample size and demographic isn’t exactly representative of the populace. Hell, it’s not even really representative of the fanbase.

  5. #35
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    Danny specifically said, in September 2003, they had an album of material “ready to mix”..

    Charlie says there are “lots of recordings from that period”..

    Some full-fledged songs/ideas from those sessions emerge over a ten-year period, all ace: Passive, Starfuckers, Skin of a Drum, Potions..

    There is a sizable chunk of Tapeworm material just waiting to be heard by the masses. And one day, when it emerges, we will all be thankful as fuck it did..

  6. #36
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    ^^
    You do realize that Passive and Potions are covers, and what you've heard isn't part of those recordings?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    ^^
    You do realize that Passive and Potions are covers, and what you've heard isn't part of those recordings?
    Passive is a cover? I thought it was some leftover Tapeworm stuff that Maynard just finished...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_guyet View Post
    Passive is a cover? I thought it was some leftover Tapeworm stuff that Maynard just finished...
    I thought the same about Passive as well. How can it be deemed a cover? In the liner notes, I believe Trent Reznor is listed for Passive. So, if it's a cover, who sang the original?

    I actually remember the story form wiki:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_(song)
    Last edited by Ruined; 04-30-2020 at 01:32 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_guyet View Post
    Passive is a cover? I thought it was some leftover Tapeworm stuff that Maynard just finished...
    ”Passive” is an evolution of “Vacant,” a song that emerged from the Tapeworm sessions. If I recall correctly from the commentary around it at the time, it was one of the better and more finished pieces; I believe Trent was unpleasantly surprised to hear it being played live by A Perfect Circle. Obviously, there are no known studio recordings of “Vacant.”

    And—again, I might be mistaken here—“Potions” was finished and recorded by Maynard as a sort of wedding present for Trent.
    Last edited by Sesquipedalism; 04-30-2020 at 02:04 AM. Reason: Missing ‘n’.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
    I actually remember the story form wiki:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_(song)
    Before that gets blown out of proportion (which I’m not suggesting that you are doing, @Ruined ), the article listed as citation in the “written and recorded for Tapeworm” does NOT mention the song was ever recorded. It does say that Maynard recorded a vocal take for the track, though. And Trent’s quoted response to hearing it was being played live is that the song was never fully realized.

    Regardless, I think calling it a cover is disingenuous. Can you cover an unfinished and unreleased song? “Passive” is a song with one songwriter who doesn’t happen to be one of the performers. Happens all the time.
    Last edited by Sesquipedalism; 04-30-2020 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Clarification.

  11. #41
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    The songs were written by Tapeworm/MJK, but it's 99% certain that they were completely rerecorded.

    Passive is co-written and co-performed by Billy Howerdel, who wasn't in TW, and also features Paz on piano. On the other hand, Trent is only credited for writing, but not for performance. If this doesn't convince you, I dunno what will.

    As for Potions, Maynard specifically tweeted the whole Imagine/APC/John Lennon analogy to point that it was completely re-recorded by Puscifer. And it also co-written by Mat Mitchell.

    Regardless, I think calling it a cover is disingenuous. Can you cover an unfinished and unreleased song? “Passive” is a song with one songwriter who doesn’t happen to be one of the performers. Happens all the time.
    Would you call it a cover if some band decided to play live or record their own version of Now I'm Nothing?
    Last edited by fillow; 04-30-2020 at 04:52 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    Would you call it a cover if some band decided to play live or record their own version of Now I'm Nothing?
    Of course I would call that a cover. For all intents and purposes, it's "finished"—it's been played in more or less the same form over a 25-year span. And there's no studio take, sure, but it is—again, for all intents and purposes—released, in that every Nine Inch Nails fan knows it and, thanks to merch and live shows, plenty of people who aren't even proper fanatics. I think the only reason someone would argue it weren't a cover because it's never been properly published would be to win an argument

    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    The songs were written by Tapeworm/MJK, but it's 99% certain that they were completely rerecorded.
    I agree. Did you think I didn't agree on this point?

    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    Passive is co-written and co-performed by Billy Howerdel, who wasn't in TW, and also features Paz on piano. On the other hand, Trent is only credited for writing, but not for performance. If this doesn't convince you, I dunno what will.
    You're trying to convince me that since Trent was only credited for writing and not performance that it's a cover? What I said was that I thought this was basically a song that had multiple writers, one of whom wasn't involved in the performance. So, I guess we're working from the same data set and reaching two different conclusions? C'est la vie.

    I don't see how calling either song simply a cover isn't an oversimplification of what they are.

  13. #43
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    @Sesquipedalism sorry, it's not all to you, but rather to everyone participating.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    Passive is co-written and co-performed by Billy Howerdel, who wasn't in TW
    Maybe, maybe not.

    Quote Originally Posted by fillow View Post
    Would you call it a cover if some band decided to play live or record their own version of Now I'm Nothing?
    Yes. NIN put a semi-official recording on the supplemental Closure DVD bonuses and performed the song regularly in 1991 and 2009. Tapeworm never performed live and never released any recordings.

    "Suck" is a Pigface cover, as pissed off as Trent is about that (because he wrote the words and melody, and even though he completely re-wrote the music for NIN, still has to credit Atkins et al. for their original composition).

    P.S. the first track on the first Pigface album is called... TAPEWORM!
    Last edited by botley; 04-30-2020 at 12:31 PM.

  15. #45
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    I think Billy was definitely a part of Tapeworm. He was Trent’s guitar tech in the mid-90s; you can clearly see him handing guitars to the band during that Night of Nothing set on the DVD the dude from ETS put together years back. Not to mention his first APC album appeared smack in the middle of Tapeworm’s lifespan, including Vacant in some of the live sets..

    Also of the belief that a lot of that unreleased material that showed up on Deviations 1 is from the Tapeworm sessions as well. Unused on The Fragile and obviously made around the same time as The Fragile/Tapeworm was going on. If what some people here have said is true, and the Tapeworm sessions veered off into The Fragile’s creation, it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility that a lot of what we’re hearing on Deviations 1 is unused Tapeworm recordings..

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesquipedalism View Post
    And—again, I might be mistaken here—“Potions” was finished and recorded by Maynard as a sort of wedding present for Trent.
    I'd be careful with terminology there, I think this is where some folks' confusion arose - all of Potions is a new recording. Some might take "finished" to mean that tracks laid down during Tapeworm sessions were incorporated, and to the best of my knowledge, that is not the case.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prettybrokenspiral View Post
    Also of the belief that a lot of that unreleased material that showed up on Deviations 1 is from the Tapeworm sessions as well. Unused on The Fragile and obviously made around the same time as The Fragile/Tapeworm was going on. If what some people here have said is true, and the Tapeworm sessions veered off into The Fragile’s creation, it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility that a lot of what we’re hearing on Deviations 1 is unused Tapeworm recordings..
    Without proper Deviations credits, it's hard to definitively support or debunk that, but one thing the credits do state is that the songs are all from "the fragile" recording sessions 1997-1999.

    Also interesting what Tommy Victor had to say in 2004: https://web.archive.org/web/20071128...ain_on_scorpio

    " "Actually, that's [Tapeworm] one of the reasons I threw in the towel for awhile," Victor admits. "I was promised so much by that whole camp-- not to sound bitter or anything. I went down to New Orleans and worked on some stuff, but I never heard any finished product. But some of that stuff I worked on appeared on some Marilyn Manson stuff. I was ripped off -- that's happened several times." "

    Assuming he'd have to be talking about Antichrist Superstar material there?

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    Apparently Trent and some others recorded a cover of U2's "A Sort of Homecoming" back then. I read where an ETS user said that someone associated with Tapeworm posted a photo on their Twitter account. The photo was of a CD that featured a cover of U2's A Sort of Homecoming, created by Trent and some others back around the Tapeworm project. I read it in one of those threads about that CD that featured Cages and those other songs.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    I'd be careful with terminology there, I think this is where some folks' confusion arose - all of Potions is a new recording. Some might take "finished" to mean that tracks laid down during Tapeworm sessions were incorporated, and to the best of my knowledge, that is not the case.
    Yep. Sorry. Not what I meant. Composition was “finished” on the song for this release.

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    All I know is the first time I heard "Passive", I thought Reznor had written the music for Maynard.

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    2020 and we are still talking about fucking Tapeworm
    Last edited by Helpmeiaminhell; 05-03-2020 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helpmeiaminhell View Post
    2020 and we are still talking about fucking Tapeworm
    I know, right?

    You would think Trent or Atticus or Danny or Rob or any of the 500 other people involved in that project would take a hint and just give us what we want already..

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    ...


    pretty sure that's not how that works.

  24. #54
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    All this recent Tapeworm talk has me farting around with a fun project in Reaper


    Still needs a lot of massaging (and a little more of that Moog bass) but it's come a long way in a week or two, and I'm getting excited about sharing it someday.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    All this recent Tapeworm talk has me farting around with a fun project in Reaper
    Still needs a lot of massaging (and a little more of that Moog bass) but it's come a long way in a week or two, and I'm getting excited about sharing it someday.
    I'm very intrigued/curious to see (er hear) what changes you've made. As much as I love Passive, I personally think it lost some of the fire and urgency that was present in the live version of Vacant (at least the one I had on my iPod, I'm sure there are several recordings). In particular, I found the abrupt ending to suit the song more than the "passive aggressive bullshit" fade-out that's used in Passive.

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    I just really want another fan to ask Trent about Tapeworm on camera again.

    We could even bring it back as a regular topic just to mix things up, keep the man on his toes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wretchedest View Post
    I just really want another fan to ask Trent about Tapeworm on camera again.

    We could even bring it back as a regular topic just to mix things up, keep the man on his toes.
    I'm sure he'd love answering that question again after being plagued by it for over 20 years.

  28. #58
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    If you want to have a laugh, watch this recent interview with Josh Freese.
    https://www.instagram.com/tv/CBBplzLnUMY/
    Short Tapeworm mention about 32 minutes in.

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